Author Topic: Please validate your belief in your God  (Read 59767 times)

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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #174 on: January 05, 2013, 02:35:55 PM »
My belief in God is primarily of my upbringing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and secondarily because I have a life just filled with incidents that cannot be explained in any other way than the supernatural.  Now I will admit, that these supernatural incidences are always filtered through my Christian upbringing, and so their interpretations.  If you'd like an example you can read one of the latest supernatural incidences and comment on what conclusion you would have come to if the same thing had happened to you.  The story is of how a 23 year old answer to prayer was really a prophetic message that wasn't to be understood as such until now.  My Christian filter causes me to come to some conclusions, like that God is omnicient, and that He wants at least me to know he's omnicient or he wouldn't have set me up with this remarkable coincidence in order to prove it to me.  I have a number of these true stories, but for now, please take a look at this one, since Sandy Hook makes it doubly relevent.  http://tinyurl.com/darkknightpremonition
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #175 on: January 05, 2013, 03:03:25 PM »
Hi Wayne, if you would like to post it up. we would be happy to respond to it and give our critique on it.

We don't respond to links, you would have to write it here, links are only used for reference. ok
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #176 on: January 05, 2013, 04:22:05 PM »
Wayne, welcome!

I had a quick look at the linked page. Didn't read it in detail. I might later.  Seemed like you were stretching things a bit but I could be wrong.'

By the way, prayer is not outlawed in schools. Kids can pray any time they want. Even your daughter. Its just that we have this separation and church/state thing where people shouldn't have religion, general or specific, forced upon them, as per, you know, the founding fathers. And a god that gets upset about no prayer in school but cares less about people who pray then harm (certain catholic priests, Westboro Baptist Church and others) makes it sound like he is nitpicking. If it is important for you to simplify the worlds problems and give them only one cause, go ahead and blame prayer. But if it is even remotely possible that other factors are involved, you might pray for additional insights too. The world doesn't operate well for folks who think there that life is so simple that one tiny change will fix everything.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #177 on: January 05, 2013, 04:29:58 PM »
Mooby why is it you think ALL cults and such need a religious base? It is just to separate fools from their gold. Once accepted as false these cults and such disappear along with the fools gold,plain and simple. Have you ever wondered why the Catholic church holds onto all those treasures they have plundered over the centuries? It is not so they can follow the message of Christs and tend to the poor.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #178 on: January 06, 2013, 03:00:53 AM »
The story is of how a 23 year old answer to prayer was really a prophetic message that wasn't to be understood as such until now. 

I read the glurge - and I don't actually see ANY supernatural intervention there at all.  You didn't want to see films, but you were convinced to go to one, and while on the way there, lots of people got gassed and some were killed, so in the end you didn't see the movie.  I see nothing "supernatural" here at all, so can you please clarify?

Or are you in fact suggesting that the gassing was in some way caused by your loving god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #179 on: January 06, 2013, 03:37:48 AM »
I will admit, that these supernatural incidences are always filtered through my Christian upbringing, and so their interpretations.  If you'd like an example you can read one of the latest supernatural incidences and comment on what conclusion you would have come to if the same thing had happened to you.  The story is of how a 23 year old answer to prayer was really a prophetic message that wasn't to be understood as such until now.

Hello Wayne, welcome to the forum. Theists are definitely in the minority around here, and very few stick around for long. I sincerely hope you are one of the rare ones who can demonstrate some real gumption.

I actually did give your missives a decent perusal, and I have to say that I find you more than a little frightening. How anyone can come to the ridiculous conclusions that you have is truly disturbing. Allow me to, if you'll pardon the pun, shoot a few holes in your reasoning:

1. You claim that your '89 Batman movie experience in which the theater was shut down due to a gas leak so closely mirrors the events of the 2012 Aurora theater massacre that no one in their right mind could possibly deny that the former was a premonition of the latter. Really, Wayne? The only legitimate similarity between the stories is that both involve a Batman film. If the theater which you were unable to enter in '89 had then been shot up by a madman you might have yourself a pretty compelling story. No, just a regular ol' gas leak that can and does happen quite frequently. I guess we should at least be grateful that you were able to figure out god's convoluted warning and stop the Aurora shootings though, right? Except for the fact that you didn't stop shit, did you? I have to ask, what good is a prophecy if one cannot determine its meaning until after the prophesied event takes place?

2. You hold that the Aurora and more recent Newtown massacres are a direct result of the 1962 initiatives banning prayer in schools, but as ParkingPlaces has already correctly pointed out, anyone can say a prayer at school. It is only organized, sanctioned prayer that is frowned upon, and for very good reasons, chief among them the fact that even theists rarely agree on anything. We have an incredibly diverse society. Would you be OK with your kid being subject to sanctioned school prayers to Allah every day? How 'bout Vishnu? Odin? Even xtians can't agree with each other most of the time. I can assure you that most born-agains would not be comfortable with their kids participating in LDS run prayer groups, 'cause Mormon god is bad, mmmkay?

Tell me something Wayne, if school massacres are a result of no prayer in schools how do you explain the PA Amish school shooting in '06? I guarantee you there was a shit ton of praying going on in that school, but somehow even they couldn't earn god's protection. Are you aware that the deadliest school massacre in U.S. history took place in Bath Township, MI in 1927? That was well before "god was no longer welcome in schools," yet 45 people, including 38 children, were killed. Guess ol' god was just warming up.

What makes you so certain that prayers for children's safety must be made from schools or they will fall on deaf ears? What kind of callous prick are you worshipping who cares from which geographic location you pray? It is especially egregious that you would make such a claim when the very prayer that you believe caused a gas leak, thereby protecting your little girl from seeing a "questionable" film, was made in the car on the way to the theater!

3. The most disturbing part of your idiotic diatribe is closing it as follows:

Quote from: Wayne's Fundie Blog
If we fail to repent, the banning of guns is next, and foolishly, the darkened minds of the unrepentant will accept the ban which will usher in the inevitable tyrannical regime, which is the default form of government in a world without God.

Jeebus H. Cripes, Wayne, that is seriously your conclusion?!!! What a coward you are. So any society without god and/or guns will, by default, be under a tyrannical regime? Sorry Chicken Little, but the facts just don't back you up. The majority of countries which limit citizen's access to firearms are democratic nations with relatively high rates of atheism, and very few cases of gun-related murders.

Please reconsider your ridiculous position.

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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #180 on: January 06, 2013, 03:41:26 AM »
I read the glurge - and I don't actually see ANY supernatural intervention there at all.  You didn't want to see films, but you were convinced to go to one, and while on the way there, lots of people got gassed and some were killed, so in the end you didn't see the movie.  I see nothing "supernatural" here at all, so can you please clarify?

Or are you in fact suggesting that the gassing was in some way caused by your loving god?

I didn't read anything in the '89 story that mentioned people getting killed, just a gas leak that caused the theater to be evacuated.
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Think for yourself.

Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2013, 11:11:02 PM »
I'd like to offer you a challenge,
I bet you can't edit your remarks in such a way as to eliminate invectives , insults, and profanity.  You need me to be a coward do you?  Is that kind of abuse necessary for you to defend your position?

I do appreciate you taking the time to read and comment, but I'll not respond to your flaming aggression.  That's sick puppy material right there.

I'll leave my story as it stands, if you wish not to believe it then I actually respect that.  You weren't there, and I was.  I've written my account and I stand by it.

Try this one out, it's one more of my considerable list of stories. 

http://tinyurl.com/CattleOnThousandHills

Here's a general statement I'll make to define why what I've written need not be defended rationally.  This rational world and universe is but a sandbox in which man's brightest intellects play,  I can both admire all that man has been able to achieve within that sandbox and still understand that the creator of that sandbox isn't limited by it, even if we are.  The supernatural is simply that, supernatural.  It is meant by its very nature to be irrational to those who limit themselves to the sandbox.
In a way, God is granting to unbelieving man plausable deniability, because he doesn't feel any obligation to reduce his supernatural ability to sandbox terms.  He does however reward a few who believe in him with a peek outside the sandbox from time to time.  You have to admit, that if what I'm saying is true, it would explain why only a few are aware of it.  I have been privaleged to see outside the sandbox, but only a peek.  I'm not certain that I want to see any more than I have, because a little goes a long way.
I'll not work myself up defending the supernatural, only to report it.  Flame at it if you must, but forgive me if I'm not invested in defending it by sandbox terms.  It can't be done.
Thanks again for reading.
 

Sorry if links aren't appropriate here.  At least one of you were able to crack the code. 

God Bless.  Wayne
The reason one writes isn't the fact he wants to say something.
He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
*** SEARCH FOR PROOF OF PSYCHOSIS HERE***> http://tinyurl.com/WaynesEpisodes 
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2013, 11:35:13 PM »
I'd like to offer you a challenge,
I bet you can't edit your remarks in such a way as to eliminate invectives , insults, and profanity.  You need me to be a coward do you?  Is that kind of abuse necessary for you to defend your position?

I do appreciate you taking the time to read and comment, but I'll not respond to your flaming aggression.  That's sick puppy material right there.

You sure got huffy in a hurry.


Quote
Try this one out, it's one more of my considerable list of stories. 

http://tinyurl.com/CattleOnThousandHills


Alright, I'll look at it.


Quote
Dana had stickers on her truck and one said ‘SMUT PEDDLERS’. Whatever that is I don't want to know,

"Smutt Peddlers" refers to a punk band from California.  With song titles like "Fuck you, that's why" and "Let's get fucked up", they're probably not to your taste. (understatment of the day)

That, or it's refering to people that distributes pornographic materials.


Quote
I said let's look online and see the transaction on my Credit card website. There it was, all of
one dollar. Her eyes were watery, and she was confused, as was I for it certainly was the correct
transaction. In the meantime Pat in the background could be heard editorializing on the ridiculousness
of my buying the gas in the first place. (I'm down playing my wife's comments again), to which I was able
to reply calling down the hallway: "Dana's paying me back and it is only a dollar!".

Bang bam boom.

We're both stunned but she more than I, as this is how profound God's leading has been for me.

I explained to Dana that even if we see the transaction come up later that I still call it and answer from
God as a reward to her for honoring her father in love.

I'm trying to see if I understand this correctly.  Your credit card statement was a grand total of $1, and it was a sign from god?

Your god is pathetically unimpressive if that's the case.  one dollar; big whoop.


Quote
As Dana was getting ready for her first return to Church, she again came into my office and wanted to
know if the charge had ever made it to the card, still insisting she repay. I said: "Let's take a look". We
went back to the card’s website only to find that he dollar charge had disappeared completely, and to
add to it, the tank of gas I bought 50 miles away by the Ford dealership north of LA was not on it either.
The act of driving all the way to Galpin Motors was my act of spiritual obedience and honor of the
Heavenly Father. My daughter’s conceding to my request to clean up her truck was her act of
obedience and honor of her father. The reward for each of us was a free tank of gas from two different
gas brands, 50 miles apart. Most significant is the way the Lord brought the reality of the free gas to my
attention.

http://www.missionariesofafrica.org/challenges/water1.html

In Africa, as much as 2,500 children die everyday due to lack of clean water.  But you know what?  Fuck 'em!  Your free gas is much more important than those skinny bag of bones.  Am I right?  (*cough*)
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #183 on: January 07, 2013, 04:27:14 AM »
Here's a general statement I'll make to define why what I've written need not be defended rationally.  This rational world and universe is but a sandbox in which man's brightest intellects play,  I can both admire all that man has been able to achieve within that sandbox and still understand that the creator of that sandbox isn't limited by it, even if we are.  The supernatural is simply that, supernatural.  It is meant by its very nature to be irrational to those who limit themselves to the sandbox.
In a way, God is granting to unbelieving man plausable deniability, because he doesn't feel any obligation to reduce his supernatural ability to sandbox terms.  He does however reward a few who believe in him with a peek outside the sandbox from time to time.  You have to admit, that if what I'm saying is true, it would explain why only a few are aware of it.  I have been privaleged to see outside the sandbox, but only a peek.  I'm not certain that I want to see any more than I have, because a little goes a long way.
I'll not work myself up defending the supernatural, only to report it.  Flame at it if you must, but forgive me if I'm not invested in defending it by sandbox terms.  It can't be done.
Thanks again for reading.
 

You may not want to defend your views on your sandbox ideas but surely you an tell us how you came to the conclusions that you have? See, for most people on the board have concluded that there isn't any evidence of any sort of god - that's why we are atheists. We come form all sorts of backgrounds included long-time church members. I even hold a theology degree. What we all realised at some time was that the universe doesn't have any evidence for a god.

So, please, at least tell us how you came to you version of a god and the sandbox version of the earth.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #184 on: January 07, 2013, 11:27:56 AM »
I have to wonder, Wayne, about some of the bits of your stories that you seem to slide right over.

You make a couple of references to your wife. In the first story, you assume that when Dana says she has seen Batman, that her mother took her to see the film. Does your wife frequently do things which would seem to completely opposed to your values without discussing them? I'm not suggesting that your wife doesn't have the right to do this, only that it's surprising, given your level of investment in Christianity and in your daughter's spiritual welfare, that there would not be some guidelines laid out which, as parents, you would try to be consistent on.

In the second story, you mention that your wife does not approve of your helping Dana. Also that while Dana is currently sober, there are things ranging from her attire to her bumper stickers (and thus, presumably taste in , given the "smut peddlers") which you do not approve of. I can also glean that she has been estraged from you and your wife for at least some of the recent years.

So, despite your obsessive avoidance of anything (like movies and television) which might lead to Satan managing to gain a foothold into your, or your daughter's life, that strategy seems not have worked out too well. How is it that many kids are exposed to "worldly" influences and brought up in agnostic or atheist homes and turn out to be well-adjusted, rounded and balanced adults while the child of someone who spends every moment focused on god, prayer, and the avoidace on evil goes on to rebel and cause all sorts of family strife? Is that your reward?

Offline Mooby

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2013, 06:22:55 PM »
Mooby why is it you think ALL cults and such need a religious base?
They don't.

Of course, the modern definition of "cult" tends to restrict it to religious groups, so your question is sort of like asking why all mammals have a backbone.

Quote
Have you ever wondered why the Catholic church holds onto all those treasures they have plundered over the centuries? It is not so they can follow the message of Christs and tend to the poor.
I don't see what this has to do with whether my belief in God is valid.

That being said, the Catholic Church does not view its treasures as assets; it values its artworks and artifacts at 1 euro each.  It considers them works belonging to all of humanity, not to be traded or sold at auction.  It is also not an organization founded to give to the poor; it is an organization founded to spread Christ's message.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline kcrady

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #186 on: January 07, 2013, 08:04:44 PM »
3Sigma

You repeatedly ask theists to distinguish between their claims and imagination.

So what distinguishes (your) physical reality (experience) from imagination or from a dream ?  What proof do you have that the physical world is not imagination or a dream ?

First of all, "dream" presupposes the existence of a non-dream reality.  We can tell what a "dream" is by comparing it to our waking state.  If the question was really confusing to anybody but schizophrenics, college kids hitting a bong in their dorm room after their first philosophy class, and theists, we wouldn't even be able to have a word for "dream" and know what it means.  It wouldn't be possible to try to demote reality by saying "How do you know it's not all a dream?" if "dream" did not connote a different kind of experience than what we have when we're awake.
 
You are in the same boat as a theist if you try to answer this.

No I'm not.  The difference between reality and a theist's imaginings is that reality doesn't go away when one stops believing in it.

My response:  There is no reason why a dream could not be logically consistent

Sure.  But it also disappears when the alarm clock rings.  Also, it doesn't have to be, and more often than not, it isn't. 

- and if you look at human behaviour there are plenty of examples of logical inconsistency (ie waking inconsistency).

People behaving irrationally is not at all the same sort of thing as a dream's "physics engine" breaking down, which is what is meant by reality being "consistent" vs. a dream's inconsistency.  When one of these irrational people can mount up on their flying carpet and go to work, or if they're in their living room one moment and in the middle of the Sahara Desert the next, you'll have a point.

The concept of physical 'evidence' ASSUMES that you are not dreaming.  I don't think that you have grasped that important point yet.

You've got it bass ackwards.  "Dreaming" presupposes the existence of non-dream reality.  What are you dreaming about?  And who or what, by the way, is doing the dreaming?  If there was no reality, there would be nobody to do any dreaming, and nothing to be dreamed about.

You can only search for physical evidence if you are not dreaming.

Well alright then.  There's one good way to prove we're not dreaming!  Search for physical evidence!  Better than pinching yourself, eh?  I just decided to eat a piece of chocolate.  I couldn't see any chocolate, and none materialized into my mouth.  So, I reached into a bag that seemed likely to contain chocolate.  It's a bag of chocolate chips, and I had no recollection of emptying it and no one else had the opportunity, so it had a very high prior probability of containing chocolate chips.  I felt objects inside, so I took hold of a couple of them.  Small, dark brown, and in the normal shape for chocolate chips.  So now the posterior probabilities in favor of chocolate chips go way up.  I stick them in my mouth, and sure enough!  They taste like chocolate!  Omnomnom!  There.  I'm not dreaming.  And if you were here, I could reach into the bag and offer you some chocolate chips.  For some reason, I rather doubt you could do anything similar, when it comes to your god.

Nonetheless, you do it all the time in the waking world, which means you know full well that your bafflegab about dreaming is unmitigated bullshit.  You're on your way to work.  You step out to your car and reach into your pocket--nothing there.  You try your other pockets--nothing there.  Do you just dream up your keys, or segue straight to your job without having to drive or get there any other way?  No.  You go back into your house, and you search.  Maybe you'll find them on the coffee table, or in the pocket of the pants you wore yesterday.  In a situation like this have you ever thought, 'Well, maybe my job is just a dream so I guess I don't really have to go, much less worry about being "late."  "Lateness" is only a dream, and I'd rather dream about being on a Caribbean beach with some attractive member of my preferred gender'? 

Physical evidence cannot address the question of whether or not you are dreaming.

Now you're contradicting yourself.  You just said that you can't search for evidence if you're dreaming, so according to you, the very act (not to mention the need) to search for evidence (such as for the presence and availability of your car keys) is inconsistent with being in a dream.  Right here, right now, we're searching for evidence of a god, anybody's god.  You know that you can't just dream one up for us, or dream that we're theists just like you.  You know that the Universe you're inhabiting as you read this doesn't work that way.  Otherwise, you would not have tried to make an argument about dreaming; you'd have just dreamed.

---

I would like to draw attention to the way the theists are arguing here.  They are not attempting to validate the existence of their gods.  Nor do they just say, "No I can't validate the existence of my God, but that's OK--I believe in him for other reasons than correspondence to reality.  My religion provides a mythic narrative structure that gives order and direction to my life.  It gives me membership in a community of like-minded individuals who help each other in time of need and provide moral teamwork that encourages us all be better people.  It provides ritual and meditative practice that brings me joy and piece of mind.  I don't need you to believe in my God or join my religion any more than I need you to be a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs."

Instead of validating their beliefs or explaining why they don't need to, they try to attack the very concept of validation itself.  Dominic tries the "we could all be dreaming/brains in a jar/living in the Matrix" Intro to Philosophy approach.  Wayne tries to define reality as a "sandbox" that his god exists outside of, ignoring the fact that physicists have no trouble whatsoever dealing with the concept of realms outside and beyond our own (multiverse theory, M-Theory, etc.).  I wish that when people did this sort of thing, that three people in lab coats would suddenly jump out of the nearest closet or door like Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition and shout, "YOU ARE BANNED FROM SCIENCE!" after which the person would find that nothing more complicated than a flint hand-axe would work for them.[1]
 1. Yes, I know there's actually quite a bit of science incorporated into the working of a hand axe, not to mention the knowledge and practice it takes to make one.  But I'm not completely ruthless.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline Jag

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #187 on: January 07, 2013, 08:38:00 PM »
...am I the only one who thinks Wayne's God stealing from gas stations is rather ungodlike? For a sign that apparently shows Wayne that god is on his side, what exactly was god telling the business owners he stole from?

I bet they aren't calling it "free gas" in the same tone of voice that Wayne and his god are.

"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline kcrady

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #188 on: January 07, 2013, 08:46:12 PM »
Or maybe Yahweh was testing Wayne, to see if he would be honest, and make sure the gas stations got paid for their gas.  If so...FAIL.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline 3sigma

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #189 on: January 07, 2013, 11:46:10 PM »
I would like to draw attention to the way the theists are arguing here.  They are not attempting to validate the existence of their gods.

I’ve been meaning to point that out myself. Instead of trying to validate their beliefs, they are trying to shield them from examination. We see this all the time from religious believers.

I sometimes think there is an implicit Prime Commandment, “Thou shalt not question”. It would explain all the proclamations of unbelievers will burn in Hell and the penalties for apostasy and heresy.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #190 on: January 08, 2013, 02:39:09 AM »
I'd like to offer you a challenge,
I bet you can't edit your remarks in such a way as to eliminate invectives , insults, and profanity. 

Wayne, when you choose to join an atheist message board and make claims which atheists will likely find ridiculous, it would be wise to expect said claims to be subject to ridicule. You should also be prepared to shrug it off, put on your big boy pants, and defend your position, assuming you honestly believe it to be correct (and I'm pretty sure you do).

As I said at the top of my post, theists need some thick skin and gumption to get along around here. Few have it, which is why they're seldom here for very long. And playing the "I'm too outraged by the little bit of your post that I found insulting to respond to the many legitimate points and questions you raised" card just comes across like a cop-out excuse to avoid having to actually examine and rationally explain your beliefs.

Be all that as it may, after reviewing my original reply I will admit that I was a bit harsher on you (especially on your very first post) than I should have been. To be fair, it was 3 AM, I had a few drinks in me, and I found your statement on gun control to be particularly maddening.

So I will accept your challenge, but I do so with the expectation that you will reasonably respond to my posts in kind, OK? So let's give it a go:

Quote
You need me to be a coward do you?  Is that kind of abuse necessary for you to defend your position?

I don't need you to be anything but honest. Being afraid of more gun regulations and afraid that a tyrannical government will surely follow more gun regulations is, in my opinion, a fairly cowardly perspective on the situation. You have already stated that you believe god protects you and your family due to prayer, so I have to ask why is it you feel you need a gun at all? Why are you so convinced that gun control inevitably leads to governmental tyranny? Do you think the average citizen of the U.K., Australia, or Japan considers his government to be tyrannical?
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I'll leave my story as it stands, if you wish not to believe it then I actually respect that.  You weren't there, and I was.  I've written my account and I stand by it.
I never said you were lying about your experiences because I don't think you are. My only issue with your story is your assertion that your '89 experience was definitely a premonition/prophecy about the Aurora theater shooting 23 years later. But the similarities between the two events are hardly compelling. The best you've got is that both involved a Batman film (of which there have been 7, shown in thousands of theaters and viewed by hundreds of millions of people since '89) and a gas of some sort. There are literally no other similarities. To state with absolute certainty that the two are connected is quite a stretch, indeed. I'll ask you again, what use is a prophecy that can't be understood until after the event it supposedly predicts?

You claim that god has begun allowing children to be killed in schools (and occasionally theaters) because he is upset that sanctioned prayer in public schools was banned in 1962. If so, how do you explain the '06 Amish school shooting (a school that not only allows, but encourages and expects prayer) or the 1927 Bath Township massacre? Why was god willing to protect your little girl due to a prayer said in your car but will only protect other children if such prayers originate inside an institution of learning?


There, that ought to be enough for you to mull over, and said as respectfully as you're likely to find here.

I look forward to your response.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #191 on: January 08, 2013, 02:48:30 AM »
Neither of Wayne's stories are convincing evidence of anything, except possibly his ability to discern patterns which don't have any meaning (which, in fairness, is shared by a lot of people).  The coincidence of him going to a Batman movie and having a gas leak keep him from attending, followed by his reference to a tragedy 23 years later at a different Batman movie (which led to a tragedy), is a classic example of confirmation bias.  He didn't want to take his daughter to the movie, which is understandable, so when a gas leak happened that forced the theater to be evacuated he saw that as the hand of God in action.  And it somehow caused him to predict the later tragedy at a different theater, two decades later.  The problem is that there's no reasonable way to tie the two together except that they both involved Batman movies (and not even the same actual movie) being shown in a movie theater.

How many movie theaters have had gas leaks that required an evacuation of the theater (or caused a fire and possibly deaths) during those 23 years?  How many thousands of Batman movies were shown in theaters without incident during that time?  I highly doubt he has even considered either of these points; instead, he saw the coincidence of them both involving Batman movies shown in theaters and jumped to the conclusion that the one was a prediction of the other.  As many people do, he only notices the congruence of the two events, and ignores all the other non-events that he didn't give so much as a thought to.

Other people have commented on the 'free' gas, so I don't see the need to belabor it further.  Except to say that he is again engaging in confirmation bias - seeing the free gas as a reward for "obedience and honor", rather than an honest mistake on the part of the gas stations (or some other, more likely explanation), and thus using that rationale as an excuse to justify why he and his daughter deserved the free gas.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #192 on: January 08, 2013, 05:11:21 AM »
Neither of Wayne's stories are convincing evidence of anything, except possibly his ability to discern patterns which don't have any meaning (which, in fairness, is shared by a lot of people).  The coincidence of him going to a Batman movie and having a gas leak keep him from attending, followed by his reference to a tragedy 23 years later at a different Batman movie (which led to a tragedy), is a classic example of confirmation bias.  He didn't want to take his daughter to the movie, which is understandable, so when a gas leak happened that forced the theater to be evacuated he saw that as the hand of God in action.  And it somehow caused him to predict the later tragedy at a different theater, two decades later.  The problem is that there's no reasonable way to tie the two together except that they both involved Batman movies (and not even the same actual movie) being shown in a movie theater.

How many movie theaters have had gas leaks that required an evacuation of the theater (or caused a fire and possibly deaths) during those 23 years?  How many thousands of Batman movies were shown in theaters without incident during that time?  I highly doubt he has even considered either of these points; instead, he saw the coincidence of them both involving Batman movies shown in theaters and jumped to the conclusion that the one was a prediction of the other.  As many people do, he only notices the congruence of the two events, and ignores all the other non-events that he didn't give so much as a thought to.

Alternatively, let's say that it WAS a warning from god.  That Wayne has indeed been able to identify after the fact that one was a prediction.  As someone up there said, what IS the use of a prediction that nobody can understand until it has happened?  It's no use as a warning, certainly.

And let's look further: what IS Wayne saying about the original gas attack?  Is he saying that his god deliberately set it up as a warning to his followers of what might happen?  If that's the case, what does that mean?  Does it mean that - without the intervention of his god - the attack would NOT have happened?  Which of course begs the question as to why, if this god can and will intervene, it did NOT intervene to save people in the shooting incident.

The flip side, is that his god had no intervention in the original attack - did not cause it, did not take part, was (at best) an observer.  Unlikely to be the case, since we've seen that his god will intervene for a dollar's worth of gas, but let's assume it was what happened.  If so, how can this in any way be described as a "warning from god"?  One may as well say it was a "warning from Anfauglir", since the two of us had exactly the same level of involvement in the incident.

And if it was a warning....when did you deduce it was a warning, Wayne?  At what point did you realise "that gas attack at a Batman film means there will be a gun attack at a Batman film!".  In other words, was god's message clear to you - a staunch believer - far enough in advance for you to act upon it?

And if it was.....what did you do, Wayne?  Did you campaign tirelessly against Batman films for those 20+ years?  Did you picket all showings?  Continually demonstrate and issue warnings about the incident?  Because if you DIDN'T do so - and since clearly this warning was one that only YOU understood - are you not in a very real way cuplable for the deaths in 2012?  If you KNEW what was going to happen - and did nothing - does some of the blame for the deaths not lie squarely at your door?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #193 on: January 08, 2013, 09:27:58 AM »
...what IS Wayne saying about the original gas attack?

For anyone who didn't actually read Wayne's linked stories, his original '89 Batman theater incident was not an attack, just a gas leak in the building. Although if it was truly caused by god, as Wayne believes, then I suppose god could be seen as an attacker.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #194 on: January 08, 2013, 09:39:42 AM »
For anyone who didn't actually read Wayne's linked stories, his original '89 Batman theater incident was not an attack, just a gas leak in the building. Although if it was truly caused by god, as Wayne believes, then I suppose god could be seen as an attacker.

Apologies - gas leak, not attack.  It was such a lengthy glurge that I clearly missed the pertinent point. 

I think the same points apply, though.  Did his god cause the leak, thus revealing that he is perfectly able to intervene in the world and - for example - cause a firing pin not to function?  Because if god had nothing to do with it, then - like I said - the warning would just as well have come from me.

The fact that it was a gas leak, rather than an attack, also surely makes it much, much, less likely that anyone would be able to identify it as a "warning from god" and take appropriate action.  Leaks happen (unless Wayne is implying that ALL gas leaks are directly caused by god?), so what makes THAT one a warning, and not the one that happened a week later in the shopping mall?

What if, one day, there is a gas leak in a church hall?  Should we take that as a warning that whatever goes on in that church is an offence to god?  Wayne would probably agree.....so long as the church hall was a different denomination, of course.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #195 on: January 08, 2013, 09:51:07 AM »
What if, one day, there is a gas leak in a church hall?  Should we take that as a warning that whatever goes on in that church is an offence to god?  Wayne would probably agree.....so long as the church hall was a different denomination, of course.
Reminds me of how people used to think that lightning strikes were a symbol of divine wrath.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #196 on: January 08, 2013, 10:16:41 AM »
[
The fact that it was a gas leak, rather than an attack, also surely makes it much, much, less likely that anyone would be able to identify it as a "warning from god" and take appropriate action.  Leaks happen (unless Wayne is implying that ALL gas leaks are directly caused by god?), so what makes THAT one a warning, and not the one that happened a week later in the shopping mall?

In the UK, we have a few cases where has leaks have caused explosions devastating whole houses and seriously injuring or killing occupants. I suppose the Wayne understanding is that these were people Satan was keep to have in his fiery realm or that god wanted excluded from his boring realm. 
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Offline WayneHarropson

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #197 on: January 09, 2013, 01:11:33 AM »
I want to thank you all for your rapt attention to my two stories.  I'm not ignoring you, I've been working long hours out of town and I'm even too tired to make good use of this comment. 

My experiences ars so unusual that it caused me to admit in the beginning of these comments that I admit that my interpretations are run through the strainer of my christian upbringing.

The  free gas being stolen I had to run through that strainer and I rationalised it in that if Jesus can turn water to wine and multiply fishes at a picnic, he can certainly make Sams Club and Shell Oils books come out right.  They were two full tanks of gas, not one dollars worth to clarify.  The one dollar was a marker placed temporarly on my account for the purpose of the lesson for my daughter.  The one dollar charge disappeared the next time we looked.  I apologise for my preachy old typewitten tome from 1989.  It is important to read it in its entirety to understand.  If I were to write it today I wouldn't remove any of my conclusions but I would tighten it up.

Sorry not to have answered all your excellent points and observations, I hope to when I have more time. I have really enjoyed every comment, even the ridicule.  I think in time you will realise that though I might be interpreting everything through Christianity, I also test my conclusions through my imaginary atheist friend and so most if not all of your comments  have crossed my mind, which until just recently was quite well protected from unexplainable contradiction. 

If you enjoyed my last two stories, maybe you would like to read another from the 70s.
http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclairBW    Protection on the road, (someone wants me alive!)

I think you will take away from all this is that, because of the peculiar attention 'some' supernatural being has payed to me, atheism is not one of my options as it might be for you all.  If it makes you feel better, you may consider me rather limited on that regard.
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He writes because he has something to say. F. Scott Fitzgerald 
I write because I've been given something to say.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #198 on: January 09, 2013, 01:34:28 AM »
If schools in predominantly Christian US are getting shot up because of the lack of official Christian prayers, then the schools in non-Christian Japan, China and India should be riddled with bullets on a regular basis. I wonder why parents in Japan aren't afraid of insane armed gunmen invading elementary schools and shooting their kids?

And why would god leave the schools in the US unprotected? Because he doesn't care about little kids if the school authorities aren't making them pray? Petty piss-poor excuse for a god. Seems more and more like a spoiled rich kid or a crazy dictator.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #199 on: January 09, 2013, 04:13:53 AM »
I think in time you will realise that though I might be interpreting everything through Christianity, I also test my conclusions through my imaginary atheist friend......

EVERY atheist here has, however, concluded that there was NO supernatural element in your stories.  You may want to consider whether your "imaginary atheist friend" is really as non-Christian as you might wish, as opposed to merely a justification for your conclusions.

If you enjoyed my last two stories, maybe you would like to read another from the 70s.
http://tinyurl.com/MercuryMontclairBW    Protection on the road, (someone wants me alive!)

Nah.  Unless and until you have the time to discuss the first two stories (which, presumably you chose because they were the "best"), I don't see any reason to read and critique a third - since (at the moment) the signs are that you will not address any point I raise, but just say "I know I'm right - here's another story".

I think you will take away from all this is that, because of the peculiar attention 'some' supernatural being has payed to me, atheism is not one of my options as it might be for you all. 

"I think you will take away from all this is that, because I manage to convince myself there is a supernatural by refusing to debate any of my conclusions outside my own (confirmationally biased) mind, atheism is not one of my options as it might be for you all."

Corrected.  Think I'm wrong?  Then address the questions you've been asked.  No problem if life means that will take you a while.  But unless and until you can do so, your protestations that "its all really true!" means nothing to us.  You are not the first to come here with unsubstantiated claims whose rationale cannot stand up to external scrutiny, and I'm sure you will not be the last.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #200 on: January 09, 2013, 06:01:41 AM »
If schools in predominantly Christian US are getting shot up because of the lack of official Christian prayers, then the schools in non-Christian Japan, China and India should be riddled with bullets on a regular basis. I wonder why parents in Japan aren't afraid of insane armed gunmen invading elementary schools and shooting their kids?

In the make-believe world of Christians like Wayne everything is about them and their “personal relationship” with their god. However, in the real world the prevalence of school shootings and other mass shootings in the US has absolutely nothing to do with their make-believe god and everything to do with the society and gun culture in the US. Unfortunately, it appears that most people in the US are unwilling to accept or even consider that.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. – David Hume 1711–1776

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #201 on: January 09, 2013, 10:56:36 AM »
The  free gas being stolen I had to run through that strainer and I rationalised it in that if Jesus can turn water to wine and multiply fishes at a picnic, he can certainly make Sams Club and Shell Oils books come out right.  They were two full tanks of gas, not one dollars worth to clarify.  The one dollar was a marker placed temporarly on my account for the purpose of the lesson for my daughter.  The one dollar charge disappeared the next time we looked.  I apologise for my preachy old typewitten tome from 1989.  It is important to read it in its entirety to understand.  If I were to write it today I wouldn't remove any of my conclusions but I would tighten it up.

I've noticed that you said nothing about my comments on starving people in Africa.

I can only conclude that you care nothing about the suffering of others, and that you're incredibly self-centered.  That'd be one thing if it was just you, but apparently, your god agrees that you should be selfish and self-serving (exactly as though your god is nothing more than a projection of you).  I guess you consider things like charities and soup kitchens to be a complete waste of time.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Please validate your belief in your God
« Reply #202 on: January 09, 2013, 11:03:00 AM »


The  free gas being stolen I had to run through that strainer and I rationalised it in that if Jesus can turn water to wine and multiply fishes at a picnic, he can certainly make Sams Club and Shell Oils books come out right.

Well, I'll grant you this. You did, indeed, rationalize your theft. "Making the books come out right" in no way changes that fact - you didn't pay a charge that you knew darn well should have been there, and you use that as a tool to preach about the wonders of prophetic christianity, never seeing the hypocrisy of your position.

Quote
If it makes you feel better, you may consider me rather limited on that regard.

Why do you think any of us are looking to "feel better" about YOUR delusion? What I feel is sorry for you.
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