Author Topic: Lori learns about SPAG  (Read 659 times)

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Lori learns about SPAG
« on: August 08, 2012, 08:06:03 PM »
You clearly are one of those SPAG Christians I see (self projection as God)

Please clarify self projection as god.  Does this mean I attribute my own values to god?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2012, 08:23:40 PM »
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Self_projection_as_god

Quote
Self Projection as God (SPAG) describes the phenomenon through which believers, when trying to ascribe a personality and wishes to their chosen god, tend to arrive at something that is oddly similar to what they themselves think and feel. Whether the process is conscious, or a concerted effort to invoke a divine mandate in support of their actions, SPAG is a contributing factor to cafeteria Christianity. SPAG has also been called vicarious autotheism.

On a side note; I always thought this was a myth:
Quote
Origins and adoption

The concept dates back to antiquity and could certainly play a role in the formation and development of religions. The specific phrase "self projection as God" is attributed to a forum post made by the user DTE on the website Why Won't God Heal Amputees?[1]
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 08:49:08 PM »
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Self_projection_as_god

Quote
Self Projection as God (SPAG) describes the phenomenon through which believers, when trying to ascribe a personality and wishes to their chosen god, tend to arrive at something that is oddly similar to what they themselves think and feel. Whether the process is conscious, or a concerted effort to invoke a divine mandate in support of their actions, SPAG is a contributing factor to cafeteria Christianity. SPAG has also been called vicarious autotheism.

On a side note; I always thought this was a myth:
Quote
Origins and adoption

The concept dates back to antiquity and could certainly play a role in the formation and development of religions. The specific phrase "self projection as God" is attributed to a forum post made by the user DTE on the website Why Won't God Heal Amputees?[1]

I don't think I'm a real spagger.  Any trait I attribute to jesus/christ would come from an actual writing either in the conventional bible or one of the gnostic texts.  Then I may expand on that trait based on my own beliefs and version of common sense or readings from other texts (Lao Tsu, Ghandi, maybe even George Carlin....) to form my own value. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Dante

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2012, 09:11:38 PM »
Lori, you are just described classic SPAG. Awesome.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2012, 09:56:12 PM »
Lori, you are just described classic SPAG. Awesome.
Is that how it works?  I misunderstood.  I thought it meant I used what I believe to describe what god is.  Alot of my values come from other sources that I can't attribute to believers or god.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2012, 10:39:15 PM »
Lori, you are just described classic SPAG. Awesome.
Is that how it works?  I misunderstood.  I thought it meant I used what I believe to describe what god is.  Alot of my values come from other sources that I can't attribute to believers or god.
So why consider yourself a follower of God/Christ? or a Christian.......use the blanket word for it "spiritual"? as you obviously are a SPAG person in its finest form ......Juiice almost came out my nose when you wrote that you thought Jesus would be ok with what you do with your body :-\
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Garja

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2012, 10:47:48 PM »
Lori, you are just described classic SPAG. Awesome.

I SPAGed like a mofo when I was a Christian.  My version of God cursed like a sailor, didn't give two shits about two dudes getting together, was very liberal.... he was a good dude, but somehow I dont miss him.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 11:24:59 PM »
Some quotes to ponder Lori:


Men create the gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form but with regard to their mode of life.  (Aristotle)

God is a word to express, not our ideas, but the want of them.  (John Stuart Mill)

I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do, because I notice that it always coincides with their own desires.  (Susan B. Anthony)

And that what we call god's justice is only man's idea of what he would do if he were god.  (Elbert Hubbard)

Man created god in his image: intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent.

If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides.  (Montesquieu)

If horses had gods, they would look like horses.  (Xenophanes)

Man rarely (if ever) manages to dream up a god superior to himself. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.  (Robert A Heinlein)

God has always resembled his creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved and he was invariably found on the side of those in power.  (Robert Ingersoll)

Isn't it ironic? One of the favorite themes of the Christian Conversion Corps is that, if we don't worship a deity, we must be worshiping ourselves.  Yet it seems that this is precisely what, in fact, the theists themselves are doing.  They worship a god with the same views, ideals, even personality traits as themselves - the god in the mirror.  (Rosa Williams)

Generally speaking, people who claim to possess a living, interactive relationship with Christ tend to have a relationship with a Jesus Christ who thinks very much as they do, and who shares their likes, dislikes and prejudices.  (Therion Ware)

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »
So why consider yourself a follower of God/Christ? or a Christian.......use the blanket word for it "spiritual"? as you obviously are a SPAG person in its finest form ......Juiice almost came out my nose when you wrote that you thought Jesus would be ok with what you do with your body :-\
I agree with a lot of the teachings of christ.  I don't believe the bible to be infallible but I don't think it is 100% made up.  I think it is a combination of truth, mistranslations, stories and passages that got altered due to "telephone game" type passing from word of mouth, stories and passages that are complete fiction and were added by church officials for their own interest.  I believe some of the "banned books" may belong in the bible.  I believe there may be writings that have yet to be found or that are forever lost.  I also believe there is truth in taoism, buddhism, islam, confucianism & writings I've never heard of.

I doubt that Jesus is "ok" with abortion.  But I'm pretty sure he's not ok with me or anyone else dictating to or judging women on their personal choices.  To be perfectly honest I would prefer that abortion be an uneccessary choice because education and birth control are widespread and effective enough to render it obsolete.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 12:07:25 AM »
@ Star Stuff -- some very interesting points...

I would certainly hope that god is not like me.  I am very strange and unusual.  If I were a fantasy character I would probably a "shape shifter."  I have been in so many different situations and surroundings and pretty much adapted & fit in wherever I have been.  This is why I can accept and interect with a wide range of people with a wide range of views.  The only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance...  Even though I consider myself a Christian I don't feel spiritual, worshipful, I don't feel like I neccessarily have a personal relationship with god/jesus, I don't consider him nonexistant or consider myself delusional.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 12:18:26 AM »
I agree with a lot of the teachings of christ.

Unfortunately, you nor anyone else have any idea what the Jesus character (if he existed at all) might have said.  You are "agreeing" with things that various people placed on his lips decades later.



Quote
I don't believe the bible to be infallible but I don't think it is 100% made up.

I'm not sure what "made up" would mean in this context, but who is up to the task of deciding what parts are fallible and which parts aren't?  Enter............SPAG.

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 12:20:18 AM »
I don't feel like I neccessarily have a personal relationship with god/jesus

Hmmm, it seems that most christians think that this is what it's all about.


Quote
I don't consider him nonexistant or consider myself delusional.

Do you think that truly delusional people consider themselves delusional?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 09:08:40 AM by Star Stuff »
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 12:56:07 AM »
I agree with a lot of the teachings of christ
Unfortunately, you nor anyone else have any idea what the Jesus character (if he existed at all) might have said.  You are "agreeing" with things that various people placed on his lips decades later.

Many of the ideals that I "agree" with are just good common sense & human kindness whether he originally said them or nor not.



Quote
I don't believe the bible to be infallible but I don't think it is 100% made up

Quote
I'm not sure what "made up" would mean in this context, but who is up to the task of deciding what parts are fallible and which parts aren't?  Enter............SPAG.

I am clearly not an authority.  If I find something I find questionable or inconsistent I compare the verse among several versions and languages, compare "reference verses" to see if the item remains true to itself under comparison or does it fall apart. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 01:08:30 AM »
I don't feel like I neccessarily have a personal relationship with god/jesus

Hmmm, it seems that most christians think that this is what it's all about.

Yes, that is a big deal, but it is something I have not been able to do. I have major trust issues and that includes god.  (Did I mention I am very strange)

Quote
I don't consider him nonexistant or consider myself delusional.

Quote
Do you think that truly delusional people consider themselves delusional

That, I believe would vary.  A very high functioning schizophrenic would know he was prone to delusions but may not always differentiate between truth and delusion. I don't recall ever hearing god speak but I think he's somewhere out there.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2012, 06:31:47 AM »
I don't recall ever hearing god speak but I think he's somewhere out there.

Why would you be different from those christians that claim to not only speak with god and jesus, but also receive power from him to heal and do magic tricks? Are they all liars or is there something about you that god doesn't like and that he just doesn't want to talk to you, despite the bible's claims to the contrary? The bible says that christians will be imbued with the "holy spirit" provided they had a "correct " baptism. Do you think your baptism was faulty?

In the new testament some believers accepted Christ per John's teaching (John 3:16) but had a faulty baptism and because of that the Holy Ghost hadn't come to them yet. It seems that Paul had to rebaptise them to get it right so that they could receive the holy spirit that they had been missing. Do you think this could have been your problem? To reference this, it is found in Acts 19.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2012, 09:07:23 AM »
Many of the ideals that I "agree" with are just good common sense & human kindness whether he originally said them or nor not.

Right, so you're basically not following the bible or it's teachings at all, you're following your own natural moral intuitions.  I respectfully suggest that you would be the same nice, moral person whether you read the bible, or never looked at it again.




Quote
I am clearly not an authority.  If I find something I find questionable or inconsistent I compare the verse among several versions and languages, compare "reference verses" to see if the item remains true to itself under comparison or does it fall apart.

So what do you do then when all of the "versions" unambiguously say the same thing, but you find it objectionable?  For example, if they all clearly state the following (images), do you accept it, or reject it?














I really would like you to think about this.  If you have the ability to judge what is moral or immoral in the so-called "word of god", what does that suggest?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 10:27:38 AM »
Any trait I attribute to jesus/christ would come from an actual writing either in the conventional bible or one of the gnostic texts. 

Even if you stuck with just this, you still must SPAG.  You see, the bible does not provide a consistent description of anything.  So you must necessarily make choices.  And those choices reflect your personality. 

Which version of yhwh do you chose?  The OT yhwh who created good and evil, who demands men slaughter their own sons in tribute to him?  Or the NT hippy trippy god who just loves the shit out of everyone, unless they lack faith, then to hell with them?  The two descriptions are so different that there were even a group of proto xians who thought they were two different gods.  So you cannot have a coherent idea of god if you say they are both correct.  You must make a decision.  And that is SPAG.
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Offline kin hell

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 11:32:21 AM »
I agree with a lot of the teachings of christ
Unfortunately, you nor anyone else have any idea what the Jesus character (if he existed at all) might have said.  You are "agreeing" with things that various people placed on his lips decades later.

Many of the ideals that I "agree" with are just good common sense & human kindness whether he originally said them or nor not.

...that should be an obvious reason as to why that Spag is so pernicious.

Another aspect to realise is that spag is a perfect tool with which to custom build the god cupboard that suits you, from the plans of which you have been given in religious education, but the personal artistic interpretation of which is purely your spag.

And so you build your own cupboard, that fits you absolutely perfectly, so well in fact, that it doesn't seem like a prison at all.

We'd just like to see you come out of it for a breath of real fresh air.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2012, 12:04:56 PM »
Has anyone ever heard someone else say "I disagree with god"?  I haven't.  I've heard people say "I disagree with the church," or "I think god really wants...".  But never "god wants this, but I don't..."  And because so many people disagree about what god actually wants, at least some of them are SPAGging.  Probably, all of them are.  Otherwise, god would not fit every individual believer like a glove.  That would be improbable.

Either god agrees with you in every possible way, or you are an atheist.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2012, 01:02:14 PM »
On a side note; I always thought this was a myth:
Quote
Origins and adoption

The concept dates back to antiquity and could certainly play a role in the formation and development of religions. The specific phrase "self projection as God" is attributed to a forum post made by the user DTE on the website Why Won't God Heal Amputees?[1]
DTE's first post on WWGHA.  Though he may have gotten the phrase elsewhere.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2012, 01:55:33 PM »
That, I believe would vary.  A very high functioning schizophrenic would know he was prone to delusions but may not always differentiate between truth and delusion. I don't recall ever hearing god speak but I think he's somewhere out there.

If someone were in the midst of a delusion and then realized it, would it be more accurate to say they were then suffering from hallucinations?  Like the difference between tripping on datura and tripping on acid?  I keep thinking in my head that part of the definition of 'delusion' is the belief in the actuality of the delusion.

Though, in retrospect, I'm pretty sure I got this from a House episode or something, but it at least sounded valid.  Take with many grains of salt (like, Burger King style).
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2012, 02:09:30 PM »
I am a SPOM, myself.

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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2012, 03:47:58 PM »
Lori, the issue with SPAG is that people who experience it really don't understand it because they view their God as a separate entity rather than something in their own mind. It is my humble opinion that SPAG is something inevitable for believers, because when they try to interpret the meaning of scripture (which is based on an author's SPAG), try to interpret the will of God, or try to figure out if something is or is not of God, that involves SPAG. Believers have to take their definition of God and try to interpret their experiences and feelings as well as decide what actions to take based on this SPAG image of God that they create. SPAG causes religions to pop up that are as diverse as the people who invented them.
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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2012, 06:49:32 PM »
If you must fill in parts of a holy book (Koran,Bible,Torah) because you either dont like or agree with it or to fill in missing information because the writers of these books could not imagine our world as we know it.

 It must be filled with the SPAG of the individual believer,or it cannot possibly work period.
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Offline kin hell

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Re: Lori learns about SPAG
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2012, 08:52:56 PM »

 Like the difference between tripping on datura and tripping on acid? 

...that is very specialised knowledge bloke  ;)   


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