Author Topic: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL  (Read 2224 times)

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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2012, 03:37:45 PM »
HAL

Perhaps you are fighting an uphill battle with no chance of success. If you enjoy the sport than by all means continue. But perhaps you should consider ignoring those who have no desire to see the "error in their ways". You know I agree with your points on both Nam[1] and Frank but there is no reason you can't all coexist on the forum with out constant bickering back and forth. If I were in your shoes I would report any perceived trolling or any other rule breaking to the moderators and let it go. Let them decide how to deal with it.

As you are famous for saying, if you don't like the guest at the party[2], leave[3]. Unfortunately this isn't your house any more so you really should move on. It's not good for the forum for this to continue any longer[4]. You have thoroughly made your point and we all understand how you feel. I don't think anyone needs a constant reminder of your opinion of these posters.
 1. Who I might add has been more likable as of late.
 2. thread
 3. ignore them
 4. You're on the watch list now.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 03:41:30 PM by Kimberly »
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Nam

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2012, 03:40:08 PM »
Seppuku,

I am being civil. I can do no more than that.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2012, 03:44:21 PM »
See, the title of this topic is misleading; not really the fault of the person who wrote it but Frank just posted a topic mentioning "Volley Ball", and yes the picture shows the U.S. team but that doesn't mean anything,

Yes it most certainly does. Given Frank's long history of America bashing here it most certainly does mean something. It means he's bashing America by using the gold medal team from America and dissing them by asking if volleyball is really a sport. If you can't see that you are blind.

Quote
and Hal makes a negative comment towards Frank about the picture he used.

Damn right I did.

Quote
Frank started nothing. He didn't even mention americans,

LOOK AT THE PICTURE

Quote
So, the title should read:

"Hal's Constant Obsession with Frank" -- since, really, the only one "bickering" was Hal.

The mod picked the title for good reason.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2012, 03:45:35 PM »
Nam,

Did you read my post before smiting me? This behavior on your part shows your unwillingness to resolve this. I didn't side with anyone, if anything I sided against HAL.

-Kimberly
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2012, 03:49:03 PM »
Okay, would all parties be willing to set aside their previous differences, accept that maybe they've played a part in this mess and start anew and try to respect one and another? Obviously respect is earned, but if you're able to lay down your differences on these issues, maybe it'll be much easier.

Or do we actually need to fix something more underlying here? As in, not something that's so easily forgotten? I am getting the feeling if you guys are gonna solve this, there needs to be a referee and maybe some rules put in place so 1) things don't get out of hand 2) people can work towards an agreement.

How do you guys feel about that?

I agree to it. Ask me anything you want to. Ask Frank too, and Nam and anyone else. But it has to be fair and take into account everyone's opinion of the other. This is not just all my fault.

At this point it would be best if you ask the questions.

I'll try to respond throughout the evening.

Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2012, 03:50:58 PM »
HAL

Perhaps you are fighting an uphill battle with no chance of success. If you enjoy the sport than by all means continue. But perhaps you should consider ignoring those who have no desire to see the "error in their ways". You know I agree with your points on both Nam[1] and Frank but there is no reason you can't all coexist on the forum with out constant bickering back and forth. If I were in your shoes I would report any perceived trolling or any other rule breaking to the moderators and let it go. Let them decide how to deal with it.

As you are famous for saying, if you don't like the guest at the party[2], leave[3]. Unfortunately this isn't your house any more so you really should move on. It's not good for the forum for this to continue any longer[4]. You have thoroughly made your point and we all understand how you feel. I don't think anyone needs a constant reminder of your opinion of these posters.
 1. Who I might add has been more likable as of late.
 2. thread
 3. ignore them
 4. You're on the watch list now.

Thanks and I'll try to resolve it if Seppuku can moderate us.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2012, 03:53:57 PM »
Thanks and I'll try to resolve it if Seppuku can moderate us.

Good luck, I appreciate your honest effort. I'm however pessimistic that you will achieve the results you seek. I will leave it to Sepp. I've said my piece.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2012, 03:57:44 PM »
Did you all notice what team's pic he used when he challenged whether it was a sport or not?
No, I didn't notice that until you pointed it out (I was looking at their bottoms, mainly. Sorry about that.  :-[). And even if I had noticed, I had no idea that the US won gold in that event.

So Frank obviously needs to be less opaque in his anti-Americanism; if people don't even realize he's being anti-American, what's the point?

Offline Nam

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2012, 04:05:30 PM »
Nam,

Did you read my post before smiting me? This behavior on your part shows your unwillingness to resolve this. I didn't side with anyone, if anything I sided aRgainst HAL.

-Kimberly

Yes, I read it. Even the footnotes.

"You know I agree with your points on Nam and Frank..."

"...the error in their ways"

Yet, I see no where where you point out any of the negative things he stated. He must have, Mods just don't put people on Watchlists for doing nothing at all, do they?

Am I on it? Is Frank? Or Azdgari who also weighed in against Hal? No. Hal is.

Therefore, you're obviously siding with Hal.

-Nam

« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:14:55 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2012, 04:09:55 PM »
So Frank obviously needs to be less opaque in his anti-Americanism; if people don't even realize he's being anti-American, what's the point?

What do you mean don't even realize? I realized it. That would be my point of view to your observation.

Anyway, I'm trying to let Seppuku moderate this mess. I want to try that method this time.

Thanks for your input however.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2012, 04:34:01 PM »
So Frank obviously needs to be less opaque in his anti-Americanism; if people don't even realize he's being anti-American, what's the point?

What do you mean don't even realize? I realized it. That would be my point of view to your observation.
Of course some people might notice the nationality of the women in the photo, and some of them might know that the US won gold. So if Frank was intending his thread to be anti-American, he was being ridiculously obscure about it. His OP didn't mention America; the only reference to America was in the photo.

I conclude that in this case, Frank wasn't on his anti-America hobby-horse (is that an Olympic event?).


Anyway, I'm trying to let Seppuku moderate this mess. I want to try that method this time.
Ah, OK, I just saw that; I'll butt out.

Sepp, here's my analysis of the situation; do with it what you will. Please excuse the technical nomenclature:

1. Frank has a thing about the US.

2. HAL has a thing about Frank's thing about the US.



What I mean is that Frank is critical of the US in various ways, but he spends a disproportionate number of his posts expressing those views. Other people besides HAL have noticed this.

Likewise, HAL is critical of Frank, as are others, but he spends a disproportionate number of his posts expressing those views. Other people besides Frank have noticed this.

Some kind of compromise seem required.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 05:04:15 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2012, 04:44:30 PM »
Of course some people might notice the nationality of the women in the photo, and some of them might know that the US won gold. So if Frank was intending his thread to be anti-American, he was being ridiculously obscure about it. His OP didn't mention America; the only reference to America was in the photo.

Yes and that's not "ridiculously obscure".

Quote
I conclude that in this case, Frank wasn't on his anti-America hobby-horse (is that an Olympic event?).

OK, but I don't conclude that. Now what?

See, we're not solving the problem by doing this. Let's let Seppuku try his method since he volunteered.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2012, 04:57:23 PM »
Okay, I'll moderate. A bit of an unfortunate time because I am about to head off to bed, not pulling one of my usual late nighters sadly, if I did my brain would be fried anyway.

I'll try to lay some ground rules. I think the first thing that's needed is a ceasefire, including on karma points. I am not interested in getting anybody to admit that they've been in the wrong because it's not about what has been said and done and more about what you can do.

I would say my ground rules would be (they can be improved if need be):
-Ceasefire
-Keep inflammatory comments out of it
-No taunts/trolling
-Be constructive
-Don't try to force an apology or push them to admit they're wrong, if they see it that way, it'll come naturally, if not, then this is about coming to an agreement whereby all mentioned parties can get along - ideally to a degree whereby they can respect one and another, but respect isn't something that can't be just 'agreed' on.
-Be prepared to listen & accept any comments made about you. You may wish to disagree, but don't make it about one-upping the other person or even winning.
-Try to keep sarcasm and even banter out of it.
-Should anybody not stick to an aggrement, even with any ground rules, don't worry about correcting them or trying to get them to live by them. I will do my best to referee in that respect so you guys don't have to.

Think of it a bit like ER but without actually being in ER.

In the next few hours whilst I sleep, you're welcome to discuss the rules (other members can offer any input), talk about suggestions on improving them and coming to a grounds whereby you all feel comfortable talking without things getting out of hand. Keep it respectful, keep it clean. :)

Does that sound good?
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Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2012, 04:59:03 PM »
Yes sir. That's fine with me.

Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »
Sepp, here's my analysis of the situation; do with it what you will. Please excuse the technical nomenclature:

1. Frank has a thing about the US.

2. HAL has a thing about Frank's thing about the US.



What I mean is that Frank is critical of the US in various ways, but he spends a disproportionate number of his posts expressing those views. Other people besides HAL have noticed this.

Likewise, HAL is critical of Frank, as are others, but he spends a disproportionate number of his posts expressing those views. Other people besides Frank have noticed this.

Some kind of compromise seem required.

I would agree with that so far. I admit Frank get's on my nerves because he seems to almost exclusively bash America. I am as patriotic as any other person in any country. I'm also frustrated that the staff here does not seem to care about Frank's tirades about America's guns, religious nutters, and whatnot. I thought Frank was doing better in the last gun thread and I said so, I even responded to him politely, yet he didn't even acknowledge my post.

I really do think Frank is yet again bashing America in the volleyball thread, it's a very clever way to do it, but it seems obvious to me. I mean, why not pick Peru's volleyball team for the picture?

What if I did this in a new thread?

Is track cycling really a sport?



Is it fair to do that, considering the troubles between Frank and me?

If I did that thread wouldn't I get slapped down?

Why can Frank do these things?

So, I'll admit Frank get's on my nerves and I don't like his anti-America-fetish. There are plenty of countries with problems and yet Frank seems to always bash the U.S. This is part of why I may seem to be bullying (according to others) it's not that though, it's frustration with Frank.

I'm sorry about that and I apologize for causing problems because of it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 05:47:00 PM by HAL »

Offline shnozzola

Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2012, 05:43:44 PM »
I love WWGHA.   ;D   Frank, HAL - do you guys box by chance?
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2012, 05:57:23 PM »
I love WWGHA.   ;D   Frank, HAL - do you guys box by chance?

Is it a sport.  :)

While I'm waiting, I'll try to tell more of my side for what it's worth.

Regarding the volleyball thread, yes it was the pic that set me off. Who doesn't know what volleyball is? Why even post a pic? Of volleyball? But as soon as I saw it was the U.S. gold medal team it seemed very obvious to me he was dissing the sport because, again, it was America, the boogy man, who was involved.

And yes, even if he did it to troll me, it's not acceptable - is it?

Here's the post where I tried to get on a better relationship -

Frank, I'm going to try and be more civil because I think you are trying to write about this issue better.

Here's the problem with your logic. The 18th amendment tried to prohibit something that people wanted very badly - booze. As is well documented - it didn't work. People got booze anyway and all it did was to create a black market and create criminals out of otherwise ordinary citizens.

Alcohol creates some very bad problems in society - addiction, drunk driving, broken homes, health problems, and death. Yet, we stopped trying to prohibit it because it's an impossible task.

The exact same thing would happen if you repealed the 2nd amendment. It's going to create a black market, new criminals, and worse, it won't stop people from getting guns because people here want guns. This society is not your society.

I don't know how else to break it to you - repealing it won't work to stop the problem and over and above that - repealing the 2nd amendment has, for all practical purposes - Zero chance of happening.

He didn't even acknowledge it. That kinda pissed me off since I made it a point to tell him he did a better job writing about guns in the thread.

So again I'm sorry for the problems I've caused, but there's two perspectives to the issue going on.


Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2012, 05:57:56 PM »
Yes and that's not "ridiculously obscure".
HAL, his OP would have made the same sense if he had illustrated it with a photo of Australians or Brazilians. Nobody would have accused him of being anti-Australian or anti-Brazilian.

Yet because he used a photo of Americans, you accuse him of anti-Americanism, and interpret the entire post in that light. No-one else did that; what does that tell you?
Quote
Quote
I conclude that in this case, Frank wasn't on his anti-America hobby-horse (is that an Olympic event?).
OK, but I don't conclude that. Now what?
I suggest you re-consider your conclusion.

Just seen your last post:
Quote
I admit Frank get's on my nerves because he seems to almost exclusively bash America.
Sure. But as I said, his disproportionate criticisms of America have been recognized by other members, they have confronted him on various occasions, so you are not alone in being critical of him.

But you alone have decided to get on his case about it; to the extent that in this volleyball example, you're seeing anti-Americanism where it doesn't exist. In my opinion.

Quote
So, I'll admit Frank get's on my nerves and I don't like his anti-America-fetish. There are plenty of countries with problems and yet Frank seems to always bash the U.S. This is part of why I may seem to be bullying (according to others) it's not that though, it's frustration with Frank.

I'm sorry about that and I apologize for causing problems becasue of it.
That's cool, HAL. An apology always helps.

Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2012, 07:14:26 PM »
OK Gnu, thanks for your input. I'd like to hear from Frank at this time.

Offline Backspace

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2012, 09:27:49 PM »
Did you all notice what team's pic he used when he challenged whether it was a sport or not?

The picture appears to show two women in their underwear about to wrestle.  I'm all for that, but an Olympic sport? Only if the sand is replaced with jello.
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Offline Frank

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2012, 02:50:26 PM »

1. Frank has a thing about the US.

2. HAL has a thing about Frank's thing about the US.



What I mean is that Frank is critical of the US in various ways, but he spends a disproportionate number of his posts expressing those views. Other people besides HAL have noticed this.

Likewise, HAL is critical of Frank, as are others, but he spends a disproportionate number of his posts expressing those views. Other people besides Frank have noticed this.

Some kind of compromise seem required.

None of this is true. Did I start any of the recent threads about the two gun outrages? Erm No I didn't. All I did was start a thread about beach volleyball which the guy in the tinfoil hat took umbridge at.

I hardly start any threads at all. You do. All you Americans. I just post my comments on them like everyone else. I'm sorry if my comments aren't always to your liking but I didn't know they had to be. But since you appear to have such thin skins maybe I should take your delicate sensibilities into account when posting in the future.

It's odd when Americans post comments criticising some aspect of America nobody says they're anti American but if I do it's America bashing. I keep pointing out that this is an American site, largely populated by Americans. who post about all things American both good and bad. Commendably so I might add. Now it appears to me that if some of my comments may appear anti American to certain posters I would contend that such an observation is firmly rooted in their fevered imagination rather than in the reality of my time on this forum.

There's a thread been started about American healthcare. If I post on that thread commenting on America's lack of universal healthcare is that America bashing or the truth? You tell me.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2012, 03:01:48 PM »
I agree with Frank.

Most Americans have the viewpoint of: I can talk shit about my country but those not from my country can't.

Sad but true.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Seppuku

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2012, 06:02:34 PM »
I think we've got a clear idea of what HAL and Frank think about topics discussing America. We know that Frank feels very strongly about these issues and of course HAL doesn't want to feel as though as somebody who cares about his country that he's being attacked. What would make you feel better about Frank's posts HAL? I mean I'm sure you don't want him to censor his views, because you were never about that when you were an admin and so I doubt that's what you'd want. I believe Frank has said that he doesn't hate America, but there's issues he feels strongly about, perhaps it's something he's more knowledgeable about just as we're more knowledge about Christianity than say Islam or Hinduism (as we mostly pick Christianity). That's just trying to consider one perspective there. You've not been the only one to complain about Frank's posts either and although more recently it has, it hasn't always been a HAL vs Frank thing. And of course, as Frank has said 'America' is a topic that comes up a lot and in fairness, there's a lot of American members and it's hard to avoid. Even saying that, I feel strongly about these kind of problems and I don't get accused of America bashing, despite being a dirty outsider. Admittedly, I don't always address the issues.

Of course, then there's the Volleyball thread. I think it's a hard one to decide in terms of motive, it's possible Frank was trolling, or it could be Frank was cracking a joke at the sport as he claims. I can see how the circumstances might seem convenient because it's odd that out of all the pictures of beach volleyball out there he'd pick an American one, heck, coincidences can happen. But I don't think it matters whether or not he was trolling. Because we need to figure something out where the 2 of you aren't getting on each other's nerves.

Frank said this in a previous thread:

Quote from: Frank
Well maybe I can be a little shrill at times. I have strong feelings about this particular subject because I think many other bad things flow from it and I also don't like to see people being needlessly killed. But I do not wish to cause conflict if it can be helped. I will try to temper my posts in future.

I think it was good of Frank to admit this and I think it puts more context into it. I think on this ground we can all relate, even if we don't necessarily always agree on the answers (like pro-gun vs anti-gun). Heck, I'm sure we've all felt strongly about a subject and have just jumped in like a maniac. Bear in mind we pretty much share a common trait here and that is how passionately we are against the immoralities of religion and it is a common topic here and we often get accused of being intolerant for it. But also, we've recognised how it might make Christians feel uneasy, offended or even unwelcome and some of us have tried accommodating for it.

Frank said he'll try to temper his posts in the future and I am curious as to what this means. How do you intend to do this Frank?Obviously you don't want to avoid sharing your opinion or avoiding your input to a discussion. What do you think will avoid conflict? Is there anything you would ask of HAL? Maybe to give you a chance without picking out your posts to do with America? Or something to help the 2 of you find some common ground? Bare in mind also, HAL isn't the only one to have made that complaint.

On the flip side. HAL, how do you feel about this question?
Quote from: Frank
There's a thread been started about American healthcare. If I post on that thread commenting on America's lack of universal healthcare is that America bashing or the truth? You tell me.

With the number of threads to do with America and it pretty much being an American site, would Frank commenting on them be America bashing if he's talking about a negative aspect of America (like healthcare as Frank mentioned)? Heck, even if it's the same negative aspect Americans are discussing and he agrees with? If so, how would Frank go about entering these discussions without causing offence? Or what could Frank say that would make you feel better or to better understand him & his posts(assuming he's not intentionally bashing America)?


And now, I'll go to sleep again. Keep it clean. :)
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Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2012, 06:20:11 PM »
Seppuku,

Thanks for the reply. I will gather my thoughts tonight and respond in the morning.

Thanks again.

Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2012, 07:00:15 AM »
I apologize in advance for the length ...

I think we've got a clear idea of what HAL and Frank think about topics discussing America. We know that Frank feels very strongly about these issues and of course HAL doesn't want to feel as though as somebody who cares about his country that he's being attacked. What would make you feel better about Frank's posts HAL? I mean I'm sure you don't want him to censor his views, because you were never about that when you were an admin and so I doubt that's what you'd want. I believe Frank has said that he doesn't hate America, but there's issues he feels strongly about, perhaps it's something he's more knowledgeable about just as we're more knowledge about Christianity than say Islam or Hinduism (as we mostly pick Christianity). That's just trying to consider one perspective there. You've not been the only one to complain about Frank's posts either and although more recently it has, it hasn't always been a HAL vs Frank thing. And of course, as Frank has said 'America' is a topic that comes up a lot and in fairness, there's a lot of American members and it's hard to avoid. Even saying that, I feel strongly about these kind of problems and I don't get accused of America bashing, despite being a dirty outsider. Admittedly, I don't always address the issues.

He has said he doesn't hate America. Yep, he sure said that. Does that make it true? I can only go on by his apparent attitude on the forum. It sounds to me like he hates America, which is his right if it's true. But how many times does he have to make it known by bashing America? At some point it starts to get into the realm of a grudge match when he knows there are people who dislike his constant America bashing.

For example, I hate religion. I hate Christianity. That's obvious from my posts. What if I went around telling people I didn't hate religion? Would anyone believe me? All they would have to do is look at my posts to find out otherwise. They would say "Oh HAL! You do hate religion! Why are you saying otherwise?"

There you go.

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Of course, then there's the Volleyball thread. I think it's a hard one to decide in terms of motive, it's possible Frank was trolling, or it could be Frank was cracking a joke at the sport as he claims. I can see how the circumstances might seem convenient because it's odd that out of all the pictures of beach volleyball out there he'd pick an American one, heck, coincidences can happen. But I don't think it matters whether or not he was trolling. Because we need to figure something out where the 2 of you aren't getting on each other's nerves.

IMHO he was employing a sly method of America bashing in the thread. He picked a pic of US players and then dissed the sport by trying to call into question whether it is a "real" sport". Gnu said nobody else noticed but that's not true either. Look -

Beach volleyball is played by millions, though I suspect it is vastly more popular in the US than abroad. Is that why you dislike it so?

Then he goes on to say in the thread he doesn't even care about the Olympics.

I haven't watched a single second of the Olympics. I find it all incredibly tedious.

So why did he even start the thread? It's my opinion he was employing it as a tactic to bash American athletes. Frank is not dumb, he knows how to maneuver words and pictures so as to achieve the desired results. All he has to do is simply tell everyone he just happened to pick that pic and la-de-da, he gets off the hook. He also knows he's been accused of doing too much America bashing. I know of an Admin who's told me that he has been told to cool it. Again, he may say otherwise but I can only go by his deeds.

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On the flip side. HAL, how do you feel about this question?
Quote from: Frank
There's a thread been started about American healthcare. If I post on that thread commenting on America's lack of universal healthcare is that America bashing or the truth? You tell me.

With the number of threads to do with America and it pretty much being an American site, would Frank commenting on them be America bashing if he's talking about a negative aspect of America (like healthcare as Frank mentioned)? Heck, even if it's the same negative aspect Americans are discussing and he agrees with? If so, how would Frank go about entering these discussions without causing offence? Or what could Frank say that would make you feel better or to better understand him & his posts(assuming he's not intentionally bashing America)?

Firstly, I don't think it's a good idea to call this an American site. Where is it written that this is an American site? It's a forum on the internet. It has a lot of Americans, and quite a few Brits and Canadians, with a sprinkling of other countries. So I reject out of hand calling it an "American" forum. It's a forum to support the Web Book "Why Won't God Heal Amputees". That's just an excuse to justify a tactic. That's all really.

I understand his points. And I understand his points, and again and again I understand his points. That's the point - he's made his point over and over again and it's wearing thin. We have a Constitution and in it is a 2nd amendment. It's not going away and nothing much is going to be done about gun control no matter how many years Frank complains about it. He's said enough about it. No more will do any good at all. I could become a U.S. senator and carry all of Frank's posts to Capital Hill and still nothing would change about it. It ain't happening.

We have bad health care. We have bad gun control. We have religious nutters running around shooting people. We are the World Police. Got it. OK. Thanks Frank. Now go talk about the Queen's wardrobe or something will you?

I think what bothers me is that Frank jumps all over American problems but has little to say about his own country's problems. Oh he'll admit the U.K. has problems if pressed but he never starts threads to discuss them. Why not? What's stopping him if there are so many problems in the U.K.? Is he afraid to take his own medicine? Is he afraid to call out his own country? Why not let us Americans try to solve his country's problems? No, he's not interested in that. I can only assume that's the case if he never is interested in starting good threads about problems in the U.K and letting Americans problem-solve for a while.

I hardly start any threads at all. You do. All you Americans. I just post my comments on them like everyone else. I'm sorry if my comments aren't always to your liking but I didn't know they had to be. But since you appear to have such thin skins maybe I should take your delicate sensibilities into account when posting in the future.

Why doesn't he start threads? Why doesn't he start threads about U.K. problems and let people comment on them. Maybe this shows the one with the thinnest skin is Frank. It's always easier to comment on other people's problems rather than face your own.

Now he'll probably come along here and play the "This is an American site" card and claim he's only responding to American problems. Not accepted. I reject that card as I've said. the only "problem" this forum is set up to solve is the religious one. Everything else is just a sideshow.

But it's not just me. I started a thread called "The Frank Thread" to try to call attention to the issue and even the Admins jumped on the bandwagon -

Frank, when you were young, did an american touch you in your special area? Show us on a doll.

Frank, the differences between you, and the Rude Pundit are simple.  For one, The Rude Pundit is an American.  That makes him actually invested in the US.  You know, skin in the game.  For two, actually want things to get better.  In other words, he is not just bitching because he likes bitching.  For three, he is complaining about the situation, not America, the concept or the people.  Last, the Rude Pundit has said some very nice things about the US.  For example, he loves New Orleans.  Look it up. 

You are none of those things.  You are not American, you only seem to be bitching for bitching sake and to my knowledge you have been monotonously negative about the US.  So when you spout off, you just sound like an angry, prejudiced foreigner.  You have no right to be angry about our health care policy or our gun policy or our abortion policy or any other domestic policy.  If there are foreign policies that affect you, that is fair.  Unless, you know, your own dopey government is complicit, which would be hypocritical.

So spare me the martyr act.  It just makes you sound like a sarcastic whiner.  No one likes sarcastic whiners.

Here is the tragic thing, which I have pointed out many times before and in which you apparently are not interested - if you approached these topics with a more...compassionate? friendly? mutually respectful? (pick one)... tone I think you and I would agree on most things politically and philosophically.  Instead, you are abrasive and well, here we are.

They know what's going on as evidenced by the above posts, yet they've been quiet for a while about it. I guess they've left me to do the dirty work with the associatd warning. I guess that's the thanks I get. I'll wear it for a while if that's what it takes. I've been told in a PM Frank has been told to cool it with the America bashing. But from what he's said in this thread it doesn't look like he's going to stop. And IMHO the volleyball thread was a sly way around it.

But let's say for the sake of argument that this is an "American forum" (I don't agree but let's see where that goes). If it is and some grumpy Brit constantly told us Americans what our problems were, wouldn't that get old after a while? Look at what Screwtape said in his response. Sure it would, and people would soon start telliing the grumpy Brit to STFU.

So there you go. That's my side of the story. I just wonder if Frank cares about what I've said?

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2012, 07:31:47 AM »
I think you state your case well and I appreciate the evidence. You make a fair point, this isn't an American forum and I shouldn't have claimed that, however, I am sure you agree that many of the topics discussed are based around America. Often when we're talking about religion or other problems, it's based in America, though occasionally we do see topics based around other countries but as far as I can see more are related to America, possibly because many members are American and therefore are living it. I can see how the volleyball thread might have been a workaround, I hope that it wasn't - the fact you're not the only one who suspected it should be a sign that you're not paranoid - but unfortunately, it's something that's difficult to prove or disprove. If you're careful with your language, then yes, it is difficult to be held account for anything. I think if Frank's posts have become an issue viewed by moderators, I think it's definitely worth using the 'Report to Moderator' button if you haven't already and obviously it's up to their discretion.

If Frank is genuine and not trying to get on your tits or is willing to not continue to get on your tits then I think what we need is a solution that works for you (and others) and works for him. He'll obviously want to put his input in different threads, but what do you think will be a fair compromise? What would work for forum members (and admins) who have had a problem[1]? Do you want him to stop talking about America completely, or are we seeking to have more balance? What would be ideal? And how far would you be willing to compromise?

I know you don't want it rubbed all over your face, but I am thinking more in terms of how we can apply that and what works best in that respect.

Cheers.
 1. I have stated a problem in the past, but I am being unbiased and neutral - or at least to the best of my ability
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Offline HAL

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2012, 07:38:11 AM »
Sepppuku,

Thanks for the reply. Frank has actually been isolated in the E.R. in the past for America bashing - did you know that? So this is no vendetta against Frank, it's a repeat of the problems he's been in trouble for in the past.

I would request Frank's input on what he's willing to do on his part first without requesting the staff to intervene and stop the bashing in the future. At that point perhaps we can reach some sort of compromise. I've said enough for now it's time to hear from Frank.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2012, 09:05:09 AM »
No worries. I do remember and it was a long time ago, and I was ER mod at the time, plus I posted as Seppuku (to separate personal opinion and my comments as mod). At the time I was pretty firm with Frank and less sympathetic than I am now.  I think it is probably worth reviewing the old thread.

Here is the old thread:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,14271.0.html

In the end an agreement was made and Frank offered a reasonable response. Everybody seemed happy with it.

Last time it was pretty much enforced by moderator rule, but we are under different management and I am no longer a mod, so I don't know how the admin team feels about handling it, but I hope we don't have the staff intervene because it wouldn't be fair IMO. But if the admin team agree that it's a problem like last time, then that's potentially what'll happen. Regardless of any admin action or inaction, I think it would end some of the conflict on this forum, which you previously said you didn't like. I think in general a reasoned solution would help create a more comfortable environment for all. I feel in respect to the old ER thread, that's worth stating.

Quote from: HAL
I would request Frank's input on what he's willing to do on his part first without requesting the staff to intervene and stop the bashing in the future. At that point perhaps we can reach some sort of compromise. I've said enough for now it's time to hear from Frank.

I think that's fair.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Random Bickering with your hosts Frank and HAL
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2012, 10:27:11 AM »
Frank can no longer offer his input as he has been banned by me.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.