Are Christians Delusional?

[One Above All]

Not all christians are delusional; just the smart ones. The ones who are aware of the evidence for (or lack thereof) and against the existence of a deity, and believe anyway. The others are just going off of bad info.

[HAL]

Mooby,

Were the people in this religious group delusional?

If they were, why?

If not, why not?

Heaven's Gate (religious group)

Heaven's Gate was an American UFO religion based in San Diego, California, founded and led by Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997) and Bonnie Nettles (1928–1985).[1] On March 26, 1997, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the group who had committed suicide[2] in order to reach an alien space craft which they believed was following the Comet Hale-Bopp, which was at its brightest.[3]

Heaven's Gate members believed that the planet Earth was about to be recycled (wiped clean, renewed, refurbished and rejuvenated), and that the only chance to survive was to leave it immediately. While the group was formally against suicide, they defined "suicide" in their own context to mean "to turn against the Next Level when it is being offered,"[9] and believed that their "human" bodies were only vessels meant to help them on their journey. In conversation, when referring to a person or a person's body, they routinely used the word "vehicle"; when shown a picture of his son in an interview, Rio DiAngelo commented, "Look, there's the little vehicle."

The group believed in several paths for a person to leave the Earth and survive before the "recycling," one of which was hating this world strongly enough: "It is also possible that part of our test of faith is our hating this world, even our flesh body, to the extent to be willing to leave it without any proof of the Next Level's existence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28religious_group%29

[Garja]

Not all christians are delusional; just the smart ones. The ones who are aware of the evidence for (or lack thereof) and against the existence of a deity, and believe anyway. The others are just going off of bad info.

That's actually a very good point.  My Mother, for example, falls into the second group.  We have had more than a couple discussions since my deconversion (usually resulting in her crying, that feels great lemme tell ya <sarcasm>).  But the fact is she actually knows INCREDIBLY little about her faith.  She usually thinks if only I would talk to her Pastor, or if only I would go to church I would come back to the flock.

[Graybeard]

Graybeard,

Sorry old chap, you got checkmated and you know it now. That's why you seem to forget my brilliant checkmate move I destroyed your point with.

I can tell by your reply that you again have failed to read the evidence and what has been said.

You say something and think it is true. You see a post, assume what has been said, and reply to your own assumption[1].

The severe attack of hubris is persisting in your mind. In later life, you will look back on this and your other inane posts and redden with embarrassment.

PLEASE READ WHAT IS WRITTEN:

YOU: Besides, I'm not the only person here who agrees that Christians are delusional,

ME: the conclusion is that if a sufficient large number of the population exhibit a delusion, it cannot be classed as a mental illness because it can be said to be "normal".

HELLO HAL... I DID NOT SAY THEY WERE NOT DELUSIONAL. I SAID, "it cannot be classed as a mental illness because it can be said to be "normal"."

Have you got it yet?

Nod your head if you have, dear... yes, that's right... don't worry, that nice nurse will be along shortly...

1.	There is a saying, "There are none as blind as those who will not see."

[Star Stuff]

DON'T MAKE ME COME BACK THERE!

 

[HAL]

Now you disagree with the standard definition?

A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person's content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person's cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence.

Read more: Delusions - functioning, withdrawal, examples, person, people, brain, mood, Description http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusions.html#ixzz22seK7v6N

^^^ that definition means that Christians aren't delusional because it can be accounted for by cultural or religious background. So you do disagree with the experts then?

[The Gawd]

I feel like I had a very good post.

:insert sad face smiley:

[Truth OT]

The religious by in large are more contented than they are delusional. Overwhelmingly Christians and other people of faith have been conditioned from youth with the idea that the major aspects of their respective religion (e.i. God being not only real, but personal with a plan and concern for their individual well-being) is real and that that "reality" has been settled far before they were even conceived. Because of this, little to no thought is usually given to the veracity of their faith and the status quo continues on.

When compared to a belief in Santa Clause, the belief in God persists well into adulthood mainly because the God concept is often not falsifiable, because the majority still holds to such faith, and because believers do not find many that oppose god-belief as credible sources to opine in matters of faith.

The world could benefit from more Biblical scholars being vocal atheists. I'm surprised that there isn't a majority within the world of Biblical scholars that are a least agnostic. What I would like to see is more education in matters of religion being administered from qualified secular educators that fairly put on the table for all students to see the reality of what the "sacred texts" actually contain. As prevailent as Christianity is in America, Bible courses should be mandated in school curriculum starting no later than middle school. Doing this will help rid so many young minds of the actual delusion about Christianity being an all loving cakes and pies religion about a God of love that cares for and wants the best for mankind.

The Bible is the best tool one can use to confront mainstream God-belief. Fostering a generation of Biblically literate young minds will be the biggest blow to the continuation of faith that can be given. Actually displaying the God of the Bible and thereby making him less foreign and romanticized will be a real eye opener for the typical person of faith whose eyes are closed to the reality of what the "sacred texts" actually say about this god.

[Kimberly]

I don't understand this argument, "It's not delusional if it's socially acceptable." Someone look at these pictures and tell me this isn't delusional:

NSFW Scroll to "SCARMASTERS OF THE BÉTAMARRIBÉ"

Bétamarribé scarmasters (odouti) can be male or female and the profession is usually passed down from a parent to a child who is willing to learn the complexities and dangers of working with blades and human skin. When a boy or girl reaches two or three years of age, an intricate series of lines are cut into their faces with an iron tool made by the blacksmith. The elders say that a child without these markings is not “human” and if they don’t receive the cuts, or if the child dies before he or she is able to receive their tribal markings, they are not buried in the village cemetery because they are “not Bétamarribé” in the eyes of the ancestors.

I saw this on some TV show that I can't for the life of me find. It scared in to me the type of pain that can never be undone. These children trust these people to protect them. These people do it because their ancestors did it. I've heard it argued that this isn't abuse/delusional because it's culturally accepted. Well I call bullshit on that; listen to the screams of the children, watch the blood pool, and tell me that this isn't delusional.

Perhaps this is an extreme case of tribal tradition. But pretending even our more main stream religions aren't harmful to our own society is pretty ignorant. We should not accept anyone as sane[1] who would infringe upon the rights of others. I include everything up to indoctrination of a child as harmful.

1.	Re Chick-fil-A supporters who would infringe upon the civil rights of the gay community.

[HAL]

I don't understand this argument, "It's not delusional if it's socially acceptable."

Of coarse you don't, neither do I. That's because we are rational, and it's an irrational statement.

Here's the problem Graybeard. I'm trying to determine if you do or don't defer to experts in their respective fields and you are making it very difficult. I've already said I don't always defer to experts if they make irrational definitions. I'm not hiding that - never have. You are the one waivering on it.

You've said that according to experts a large population with delusions can't be classified as a mental illness. You agree with experts here.

I disagree, and I'm with bertaberts on this, that it can be classified as a mental illness, and should be. It's a mind-virus - an illness. I believe, for example, that Mooby is ill in the head with this virus. He's mentally ill IMHO. Not a biological virus but more like a computer virus to an approximation. In any case it's consistent with what I've said all along - that I sometimes disagree with experts.

Then, you disagree with the experts and say that Christians are delusional. Here, look again at the definition -

A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person's content of thought.

So far so good - that's Christians and Mooby to a tee ...

continuing -

The false belief is not accounted for by the person's cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence.

Read more: Delusions - functioning, withdrawal, examples, person, people, brain, mood, Description http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusions.html#ixzz22seK7v6N

Oops! Houston we have a problem.

^^^ See what the experts say. The false belief must not be accounted for by the person's cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. If it is accounted for that way, for example a large majority of people being Christians in the culture, it can't be a delusion according to the experts. I disagree with the experts again. That's a ridiculous part of the definition. No news there.

But you still say religion is a delusion. OK, so do I, but YOU now have decided to disagree with experts.

But look at what you told me -

It is also so that psychiatrists are the people who state what a mental illness is – we do not vote on this and there is no input from laymen. But someone has to have that responsibility, don’t they? And it’s best that it is someone who knows something about the subject or, as we say, ‘experts’.

The part I'm referring to is the last part. You made that statement so as to make people aware that we should defer to experts. You slapped me on the wrist with it - yet blatantly don't practice what you preach.

But that's the whole point of my questions to you. I've already asked you several times.
I suppose one more try can't hurt.

Do you or don't you defer to experts in their respective fields, as you told me to do once? Can you please clear up this muddy water?

[Energized]

No. I would label most Christians (and other religious believers) irrational rather than delusional.

Agreed.

I voted "not sure".

Is a delusion an all encompassing term, or could we have varying degrees of delusion? (I'm reminded of the Seinfeld episode about coincidences: big ones versus small ones).

Having a belief in god to me seems irrational. Having a belief in god and acting upon what you think god is telling you is a delusion.

I think most north American christians are irrational. To me, the whack jobs that prevent their kids from reading Harry Potter, or burn books, or kill abortion doctors are delusional, but on a sliding scale...

E.

[LoriPinkAngel]

I have a problem with calling Christians delusional, as a group.... 
And so I have a hard time saying that Christians, in general, are delusional. 

(bold mine) I'm sure there are some christians who are delusional & there are some who are not...

its that granny who goes out and votes on things that take away peoples rights(because her Pastor tells her to)

 
Why do you assume granny can't think for herself?  Is it because she is a christian or because she is a granny?  And why do you assume all christians and only christians vote on things that take away peoples rights?

Granny can think for herself,but may be influenced by her pastor........Are "Christians"  fighting to take away rights......like a womans right to choose?.....or Mexican Americans right to walk around  Arizona without "papers". ....let me ask you a Question how many Americans actually vote?

I am a Christian and I believe I am the only one who gets to decide what does or does not grow in my body and that goes for every other woman...
Are the only people who are anti-choice Christians?  I don't think so.
I don't live in Arizona so I don't get a say in Mexican Americans rights there.
I feel the only Americans who have any right to bitch about imigration are Native Americans.
How many Americans actually vote?  Too few.  Especially considering how many men and women fought to give them the right.

[Truth OT]

Granny can think for herself,but may be influenced by her pastor........Are "Christians"  fighting to take away rights......like a womans right to choose?.....or Mexican Americans right to walk around  Arizona without "papers". ....let me ask you a Question how many Americans actually vote?

What does the Arizona immigration situation have to do with religion?

[The Wannabe]

I think given the increasing amount of scientific information and knowledge made available to the public, modern day Christians must be defined as delusional.

[12 Monkeys]

Granny can think for herself,but may be influenced by her pastor........Are "Christians"  fighting to take away rights......like a womans right to choose?.....or Mexican Americans right to walk around  Arizona without "papers". ....let me ask you a Question how many Americans actually vote?

What does the Arizona immigration situation have to do with religion?

nothing except for the grannies who vote for propositions put forward to be voted on against groups.....and many times their own interests(the grannies interests)

[12 Monkeys]

I have a problem with calling Christians delusional, as a group.... 
And so I have a hard time saying that Christians, in general, are delusional. 

(bold mine) I'm sure there are some christians who are delusional & there are some who are not...

its that granny who goes out and votes on things that take away peoples rights(because her Pastor tells her to)

 
Why do you assume granny can't think for herself?  Is it because she is a christian or because she is a granny?  And why do you assume all christians and only christians vote on things that take away peoples rights?

Granny can think for herself,but may be influenced by her pastor........Are "Christians"  fighting to take away rights......like a womans right to choose?.....or Mexican Americans right to walk around  Arizona without "papers". ....let me ask you a Question how many Americans actually vote?

I am a Christian and I believe I am the only one who gets to decide what does or does not grow in my body and that goes for every other woman...
Are the only people who are anti-choice Christians?  I don't think so.
I don't live in Arizona so I don't get a say in Mexican Americans rights there.
I feel the only Americans who have any right to bitch about imigration are Native Americans.
How many Americans actually vote?  Too few.  Especially considering how many men and women fought to give them the right.

point one a pro choice Christian.......WOW rare, what would Jesus say. Point #2The Mexicans in Arizona was just an example....what about the prop 8 thing in California for gay marriage? religous groups motivated their followers to vote to ban gay marriage ,worked pretty well. Point#3 I am an Aboriginal Canadian....so I guess I am allowed to complain? Point #4 Why unless there is a motivation to take something away from someone do Americans not vote?

[Nick]

Missouri has a proposal on the ballot today to allow kids to opt out of a class assignment if they feel it goes against their religious beliefs.  Guess evolution is on the block again.

[LoriPinkAngel]

point one a pro choice Christian.......WOW rare, what would Jesus say. Point #2The Mexicans in Arizona was just an example....what about the prop 8 thing in California for gay marriage? religous groups motivated their followers to vote to ban gay marriage ,worked pretty well. Point#3 I am an Aboriginal Canadian....so I guess I am allowed to complain? Point #4 Why unless there is a motivation to take something away from someone do Americans not vote?

What would Jesus say?  Unless Jesus happens to be the hot hispanic baby-daddy he doesn't get a say.
Prop 8?  I don't get it.  If you're against gay marriage don't marry a gay person.  Gay people have just as much right to miserable screwed up marriages and contentious divorces as everybody else.  I don't know how gay people getting married affects "the sanctity of marriage" one bit.  I screwed up my marriage just fine before gays ever had the right to get married...
Aboriginal Canadian?  That sounds hot.
I think Americans don't vote for a lot of reasons.  Many think their votes don't matter because of the electoral system, many notice nothing seems to change.  Many are lazy and apathetic.  I say if you don't vote you can't bitch.  I can't not bitch so I always vote.
12 Monkeys?  I watched that movie twice in a row the same night & just didn't quite get it.

[12 Monkeys]

the point was that a religous movement(mainly mormons) motivated their followers to vote against gay marriage..on prop 8....and I meant would Jesus be OK with a woman of God  were to choose to terminate a pregnancy

 And what did you not get about 12 monkeys? A virus kills 5 billion people and forces humanity to be sub-terranian......they develop technology to go back in time to get a pure un-mutated form of the virus so they can develop a cure

[LoriPinkAngel]

the point was that a religous movement(mainly mormons) motivated their followers to vote against gay marriage..on prop 8....and I meant would Jesus be OK with a woman of God  were to choose to terminate a pregnancy

 And what did you not get about 12 monkeys? A virus kills 5 billion people and forces humanity to be sub-terranian......they develop technology to go back in time to get a pure un-mutated form of the virus so they can develop a cure

I was always taught that Jesus' main instruction was for people to treat each other with love and to treat each other the way you would want to be treated.  This is why I have difficulty with people thinking they have the right to pass judgment on other people or to legislate other people's medical or sexual decisions.
As for the movie - I was confused when Bruce Willis failed to stop the guy from getting on the plane but then that scientist lady was on the plane...  it threw me

[12 Monkeys]

her line at the end of the movie was that she was in "insurance"......so if he failed "insurance" was there.

 You clearly are one of those SPAG Christians I see (self projection as God)

[Hatter23]

I really enjoyed this, but I'm afraid you have lost the game.

Funny. I agree with you that Christians, barring children, the mentally retarded, and those in primitive conditions, are delusional. And yes, by Greybeards sig quote, they meet that definition.
They have a "false belief that is firmly maintained in spite of incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary"

However your poll of opinion, nor your appeal to experts really does little to make your case, and your petty statmenets only make you look like an ass....despite me agreeing with you.

Whether or not something is popularly held as true has nothing to do with obvious evidence that it isn't true. Therefore, nothing to do with whether or not it is a delusion. I liken delusions as the acne of psychiatric conditions; we all have some and efforts to rid ourselves of every single outbreak would do more harm than good.  However, unlike other delusions, Religion being held as a societal "good" is like spreading rancid grease on the faces of your children to insure they have plenty of acne.




Hal, you've seemed kind of beligerent as of late, and I am wondering what has triggered this.

[Traveler]

point one a pro choice Christian.......WOW rare, what would Jesus say...

Actually, a very great number of my christian friends are pro-choice. They are in the moderate to liberal side of the christian "scale."

Point #2The Mexicans in Arizona was just an example....what about the prop 8 thing in California for gay marriage? religous groups motivated their followers to vote to ban gay marriage ,worked pretty well...

Ditto with lgbt rights. The far right seems to have a lock on the media these days, but many, many moderate and liberal christians are totally pro-gay, doing marriage ceremonies in their churches, and so on.

One of the reasons today's far-right displays of power are so very, very disturbing to me is that it goes against everything I knew about my religious friends growing up, and for most of my adult life. Granted, I've mostly lived in liberal areas of the country, but it still surprises, shocks, and terrifies me that so many ultra-conservative religious folks are coming into power. It feels like they've invaded our country on the sly ... like alien body snatchers or something. Obviously my childhood and young to middle adulthood must have been unusual or something. It freaks me out.

[Traveler]

By the way, I finally voted "not sure," but that's not exactly what I mean. I think, as has been said before in this thread, that its a sliding scale, with the right-wing fundamentalists clearly delusional. Others less so. As I understand mental illness, its not diagnosed unless it interferes in their lives. A liberal christian may have a peculiar belief system, but they don't bring it into the workplace, it doesn't stop them from supporting equal rights, it doesn't, in other words, make them control freaks out to force everyone else into their set of rules. So, while their god belief might be a imaginary/delusional/irrational, it doesn't change who they are and how they are in the world.

On the other hand, I have a very strong instinct to call them delusional anyway, because the idea of the abrahamic god seems so completely absurd to me.

My "not sure" vote is much closer to "yes" than my post might imply.

[12 Monkeys]

point one a pro choice Christian.......WOW rare, what would Jesus say...

Actually, a very great number of my christian friends are pro-choice. They are in the moderate to liberal side of the christian "scale."

Point #2The Mexicans in Arizona was just an example....what about the prop 8 thing in California for gay marriage? religous groups motivated their followers to vote to ban gay marriage ,worked pretty well...

Ditto with lgbt rights. The far right seems to have a lock on the media these days, but many, many moderate and liberal christians are totally pro-gay, doing marriage ceremonies in their churches, and so on.

One of the reasons today's far-right displays of power are so very, very disturbing to me is that it goes against everything I knew about my religious friends growing up, and for most of my adult life. Granted, I've mostly lived in liberal areas of the country, but it still surprises, shocks, and terrifies me that so many ultra-conservative religious folks are coming into power. It feels like they've invaded our country on the sly ... like alien body snatchers or something. Obviously my childhood and young to middle adulthood must have been unusual or something. It freaks me out.

religously motivated people banned gay marriage Prop8....the softy Christians....or anybody else for that matter could not be motivated enough to vote.....hate filled zealots voted though

[jetson]

religously motivated people banned gay marriage Prop8....the softy Christians....or anybody else for that matter could not be motivated enough to vote.....hate filled zealots voted though

I think we see that a lot in this country.  The loudmouths are loud.

[12 Monkeys]

religously motivated people banned gay marriage Prop8....the softy Christians....or anybody else for that matter could not be motivated enough to vote.....hate filled zealots voted though

I think we see that a lot in this country.  The loudmouths are loud.

you calling me loud?

[jetson]

religously motivated people banned gay marriage Prop8....the softy Christians....or anybody else for that matter could not be motivated enough to vote.....hate filled zealots voted though

I think we see that a lot in this country.  The loudmouths are loud.

you calling me loud?

HA!, Well, you are 12 monkeys!  SHHHHH

[Robert Sole]

I put yes, but I think it's tricky.  If you define it only as something like 'strong conviction despite evidence to the contrary' then yes, they are deluded.  But it seems that term requires a pathological side or some sort of illness, which distinguishes it from dogma and illusion.

My body is made up of mostly empty space.  I know this is true, but I live my life as if I am solid.  Is that a delusion or just an illusion? 

Tricky one.   

You are deluded. The human body is more than 60% liquid (with empty space between the particles), but hey, keep living the life of a solid, you lucky stiff, lol.