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Do you think Christians are delusional?

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No
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Offline HAL

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Are Christians Delusional?
« on: August 06, 2012, 09:59:32 PM »
We're having quite a tussle in another thread about this so I wanted to take an official accounting of just who here thinks Christians are delusional and who doesn't.

Of course, you should know that the author of the web pages that spawned this very forum thinks Christians are delusional.

Understanding Delusion

And you may have heard of the book "The God Delusion" by Dr. Richard Dawkins. He thinks they are delusional.

So does Dr. Sigmund Freud, the father of psychoanalysis.

So do I. I know that others here do as well such as azdgari, bertaberts, and a lot more.

So what do you say folks? Are Christians delusional or not?

Offline Nick

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 10:23:59 PM »
Does the pope shit in the woods?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 10:34:04 PM »
Delusional and extremely fearful of losing their delusion. They fear atheists who may see that, like the emperor, they too have no clothes.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline HAL

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 10:41:24 PM »
Well, our dear Graybeard doesn't think they are delusional, nor does Mooby (but he's a Christian so duh).

They say that 'cause the ex-spurts say religious people of the commonly accepted large group religions aren't delusional. So, be prepared to get your butts straightened out by those two.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 10:44:57 PM by HAL »

Offline Timo

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 10:44:49 PM »
I have a problem with calling Christians delusional, as a group.  I think that, whatever we do with it, we all have a spiritual impulse.  And I think that, whatever we do with it, we all have an inclination to attribute things we don't understand to a higher power.  I think that Christianity is just one of the ways that we have of channeling that tendency.  And so I have a hard time saying that Christians, in general, are delusional.  I think that they are interpreting a feeling that we all have in a way that makes sense to them, culturally.

On the other hand, I think that most of the people that will actually engage with you in an argument or seek out those arguments are probably delusional.  If you want to go to the mattresses about the organizing principle of biology being a vast conspiracy, I just don't know how else to categorize you.
pero ya tu sabes...

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 10:46:11 PM »
I put yes, but I think it's tricky.  If you define it only as something like 'strong conviction despite evidence to the contrary' then yes, they are deluded.  But it seems that term requires a pathological side or some sort of illness, which distinguishes it from dogma and illusion.

My body is made up of mostly empty space.  I know this is true, but I live my life as if I am solid.  Is that a delusion or just an illusion? 

Tricky one.     



Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline HAL

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 10:58:32 PM »
It sure seems like they should be considered delusional -

Quote

A delusion is a false belief. People who suffer from delusions may think that they are someone famous. They may feel that other people are trying to hurt them. They may think that the world is flat. Any false belief can be called a delusion. Many people think of Delusions of Grandeur when they hear the word. This is a special set of delusions where the person believes that they are famous, or that a famous person is especially close to them.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_delusion#ixzz22pTApYz0




Offline Garja

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 11:00:13 PM »

Understanding Delusion

And you may have heard of the book "The God Delusion" by Dr. Richard Dawkins. He thinks they are delusional.

So does Dr. Sigmund Freud, the father of psychoanalysis.

So do I. I know that others here do as well such as azdgari, bertaberts, and a lot more.


Don't bias your poll now HAL!


For the record, yes.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline Barracuda

Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 11:51:24 PM »
I accidentally voted yes, but that was before I skimmed through a significant part of the wiki page on delusion. I say no, because delusions are considered aspects of a disease and are distinguished from beliefs arising from fictions and dogma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
Quote
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 12:09:15 AM by Barracuda »

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2012, 12:01:14 AM »
I accidentally voted yes, but that was before I skimmed through a significant part of the wiki page on delusion. I say no, because delusions are considered aspects of a disease and are distinguished from beliefs arising from fictions and dogma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
Quote
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
It can't be proven true or false,but the lack of ANY significant evidence for it to be true is hard to overcome. How do you differ from the views of the religous fanatic who actually goes out and kills for their religion and the granny who drives her 1977 Valiant to church every Sunday?

 There are many examples of the fanatic and the granny out there,which one is crazy? Of course you would probably say fanatic,but its that granny who goes out and votes on things that take away peoples rights(because her Pastor tells her to) to be who they are,so I say both are equally delusional.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline wright

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 12:04:57 AM »
No. I would label most Christians (and other religious believers) irrational rather than delusional. The medical definition of delusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion), starts out with this:
Quote
Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.


Certainly it's possible for some believers to be deluded, but classifying religious belief as a delusion in the clinical sense doesn't seem accurate.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 12:09:16 AM »
FWIW:

The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion, ever recognizes it as such.  (Sigmund Freud)


For me, it is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.  (Carl Sagan)


When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.  (Robert Pirsig)


Getting rid of a delusion makes us wiser than getting hold of a truth.  (Ludwig Borne)


I believe that you believe your god is real. It's called a delusion, and I politely decline your request to join you in your hallucination.


God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Barracuda

Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 12:09:30 AM »
As an afterthought, as this debate is basically about semantics I think it really just depends on one's definition of a delusion and/or a pathology. I for one am of the view that the brain, and it's mishaps, should be considered medically no different from any other organ.

Epilepsy and other pathologies used to be seen as a sign of possession or witchcraft or whatever, for example. That has been corrected, but now we still attempt to demonize/look down upon people (or even imprison them) for other things that are simply physical properties of the brain such as 'laziness,' anger issues, addiction, etc. These are issues with the brain's physiology that affect the owner's well being and I see no reason why they shouldn't be treated the same as things like epilepsy, for example.

Just because these issues are currently very widespread, and (perhaps because of) the brain's physiology is so poorly understood compared to other organs like kidney's etc, doesn't mean that they are any different as far as the proper course of action goes. I'd like to see a situation where negative properties like irrationality or addiction are treated the same as, say, nephrolithiasis.

So I guess for now I'm back to where I started and think things like this should be viewed as pathologies and therefore religious belief would qualify as a delusion. but ugh, I'm tired I'll need to sleep on this and think some more.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 01:00:34 AM »
I have a problem with calling Christians delusional, as a group.... 
And so I have a hard time saying that Christians, in general, are delusional. 
(bold mine) I'm sure there are some christians who are delusional & there are some who are not...

Quote
its that granny who goes out and votes on things that take away peoples rights(because her Pastor tells her to)
 
Why do you assume granny can't think for herself?  Is it because she is a christian or because she is a granny?  And why do you assume all christians and only christians vote on things that take away peoples rights?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 02:32:15 AM »
So far on this thread there have been several people stating that religion/christianity is not delusional. Due to this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion)  Which defines it thus
Quote
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
Their argument is that religion isn't pathological therefore can't be delusional.(my emphasis)
 
We have all heard of meme's I expect.
Richard Dawkins mentions them in his book.

Meme's catch on in the mind either by being enforced or through simple want, but most come about via inculcation as far as I understand it. They spread quickly and efficiently, in other words just like a virus, a virus of the mind.

Religion is one such meme, as was, and is the communist ideology. Both are contagious ideas, are memetic parasites, and are viruses of the minds.

A mind virus, just like a normal virus, require an existing execution process, which will allow it the opportunity to infect and spread. Think of how a real-world virus infects the body - it is fairly passive until it reaches its target and begins reproduction. Just like the indoctrination process does.

However to the detriment of the recipient, when this pernicious mind-virus lodges itself into someone's brain, it can make: the nicest person, reject their own children, a priest abuse children, and good people start spouting hate, and that genocide, torture, and totalitarian tyranny do not merely become OK, they become the epitome of the Good.
Much in the same way a flu virus would cause your body to work against itself, the religious virus does it to the mind.

Some more books on the subject, if you’re interested.
Virus of the Mind - Richard Brodie
http://www.amazon.com/Virus-Mind-New.../dp/0963600117
http://www.memecentral.com/votm.htm
The God Virus - Darrel W Ray
http://www.amazon.com/God-Virus-reli.../dp/0970950519
http://www.vaguespace.net/blog/2010/...god-virus.html
http://www.thegodvirus.net/
Viruses of the Mind - Richard Dawkins
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi...-the-mind.html

Here's a lecture by Darrel W Ray if your interested.
In seven parts








No gentlemen religious meme's are pathological therefore religion is delusional. "Lest we forget our history".
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline HAL

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 06:02:06 AM »
Interesting ...

Quote
Wow. In my Skepticon III talk (in 2010, you can find it on YouTube) I argued Christianity was a delusion and made a point about the DSM[1] criteria for delusion illogically including a "religious" exception, and argued why it didn't belong there. Now Dr. Peter Boghossian, professor of philosophy at Portland State University, in a great talk on faith-based epistemology, voiced his agreement with me: "I disagree with granting religious delusion as an exemption, and I want to mention there's a budding young scholar here at Portland State University, Renee Barnett [sp?] who is working to eliminate the religious exemption from the DSM and I am helping her to do so." The rest of his talk is a nice, simple discussion of the epistemological issue; he also mentions me at one point, and takes some of my points from Skepticon. It's also nice to see a sitting philosophy prof going in-your-face on religion, too.

http://www.freethoughtdayton.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=70:why-is-religious-delusion-exempted-from-the-dsm?&Itemid=26
 1. Edit for those who do not recognise the intitials "DSM" = Psychiatric Diagnoses are categorized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th. Edition.  Better known as the DSM-IV, the manual is published by the American Psychiatric Association and covers all mental health disorders for both children and adults. It also lists known causes of these disorders, statistics in terms of gender, age at onset, and prognosis as well as some research concerning the optimal treatment approaches.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 12:19:41 PM by Graybeard »

Online Mooby

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 06:55:50 AM »
Religious people are delusional in the same way that you're starving when you have to wait 15 min for dinner.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 07:15:02 AM »
Religious people are delusional in the same way that you're starving when you have to wait 15 min for dinner.
Wow! just wow. "If I don't get my dinner, I;m going to fly a plane into some buildings."

Mooby It sounds like you aspire to become mentally handicapped. Seriously.
You would rather gaze in wonderment at the invisible barriers on the bus than have the intellectual capacity to identify them as windows.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 07:18:52 AM »
To be sure, I voted yes, however I do think there is a caveat. I dont suggest religous delusions be given special treatment, but are we talking about simply saying that they hold a certain belief being the delusion? Are we talking about those that will try to argue their points like many of the Xtians we get here?

I say it matters, because as we know, virtually all people claiming to be christians live as though there is no god as this website shows (ie having health insurance, not giving away all their goods and following jesus, not hating their family, etc) so to me that throws into question whether they actually believe as opposed to just saying it. Furthermore, even if christianity were true, it would suggest that there were no believers since none of them are doing feats greater than the ones in the myth book.

So they may be deluded into believing they believe, but the evidence shows theyre not believers, and at that they may not be deluded.

Does that make sense or am I doing gymnastics?

Offline jetson

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 07:25:36 AM »
The distinction that comes to mind for me, is one where I truly believe that most adults know it's all imaginary.  But they play along to varying degrees, out of fear, and to play a bit of Pascal's Wager, consciously or not.

If a rational adult is alone in a room, and they try to "talk" to a god, I believe most of them know that they are talking to themselves.  And on a scale, it gets deeper into people who truly believe that a god is listening, and on into a god who cares, etc.

So, for those believers who cannot even imagine there is no actual god, it is without a doubt a delusion.

Online Mooby

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2012, 07:52:41 AM »
Mooby It sounds like you aspire to become mentally handicapped. Seriously.
I have a cousin who's mentally handicapped.  So no, I'm pretty sure you're not serious.

I'll never get why some people want to cheapen the real problems of real people.  There are people who are really delusion, really starving, and really mentally handicapped out there, yet you insist on tossing labels around to fit anyone you disagree with.  Are you really that sheltered from the world that you must invent problems to substitute from real ones?
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 08:26:33 AM »
Mooby It sounds like you aspire to become mentally handicapped. Seriously. You would rather gaze in wonderment at the invisible barriers on the bus than have the intellectual capacity to identify them as windows.
I have a cousin who's mentally handicapped.  So no, I'm pretty sure you're not serious.

I'll never get why some people want to cheapen the real problems of real people.  There are people who are really delusion, really starving, and really mentally handicapped out there, yet you insist on tossing labels around to fit anyone you disagree with.  Are you really that sheltered from the world that you must invent problems to substitute from real ones?
I have a son who is autistic, and a brother that spent a long time in an asylum until he committed suicide, and another brother that says "if it wasn't for his fear of god he could kill someone". I have no fear of god/gods and could kill no one, what does that say to about delusional, and before you say my brother needs help that's a given, but sadly there are so many other religious people who wish to do the same. 
So no I don't just  brandish labels, and most certain am not sheltered from the world if I was, I would not believe people shot abortion doctors or blew themselves up, So sorry no inventions here. if the cap fits as they say wear it.
If it walks like a (delusional) duck sound like a (delusional) duck, then it must be a (normal) chicken.(sarcasm)
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 08:36:33 AM »
I'll never get why some people want to cheapen the real problems of real people.  There are people who are really delusion, really starving, and really mentally handicapped out there, yet you insist on tossing labels around to fit anyone you disagree with.  Are you really that sheltered from the world that you must invent problems to substitute from real ones?

There are delusions, and there are delusions.  By which I mean, different types of delusions are going to have different types of impact on how you're able to handle your day-to-day life.  It's going to be difficult to function if (for example) you're under the delusion that all left-handed women are assassins who want to kill you.  Christianity is usually a less intrusive delusion, inasmuch as most of the adherents to the various forms of Christianity spend virtually every moment of their waking lives living the same way they would live if they were atheists.  Even so, it is still a delusion, and it only gets a pass from the medical community because it is such a widely held delusion.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2012, 09:42:05 AM »
Interesting ...

Quote
Wow. In my Skepticon III talk (in 2010, you can find it on YouTube) I argued Christianity was a delusion and made a point about the DSM criteria for delusion illogically including a "religious" exception, and argued why it didn't belong there. Now Dr. Peter Boghossian, professor of philosophy at Portland State University, in a great talk on faith-based epistemology, voiced his agreement with me: "I disagree with granting religious delusion as an exemption, and I want to mention there's a budding young scholar here at Portland State University, Renee Barnett [sp?] who is working to eliminate the religious exemption from the DSM and I am helping her to do so." The rest of his talk is a nice, simple discussion of the epistemological issue; he also mentions me at one point, and takes some of my points from Skepticon. It's also nice to see a sitting philosophy prof going in-your-face on religion, too.

http://www.freethoughtdayton.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=70:why-is-religious-delusion-exempted-from-the-dsm?&Itemid=26
Here's the video.


And the original by Dr Richard Carrier.


Addenum: added video
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 10:25:02 AM by bertatberts »
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 09:48:55 AM »
I have a problem with calling Christians delusional, as a group.... 
And so I have a hard time saying that Christians, in general, are delusional. 
(bold mine) I'm sure there are some christians who are delusional & there are some who are not...

Quote
its that granny who goes out and votes on things that take away peoples rights(because her Pastor tells her to)
 
Why do you assume granny can't think for herself?  Is it because she is a christian or because she is a granny?  And why do you assume all christians and only christians vote on things that take away peoples rights?
Granny can think for herself,but may be influenced by her pastor........Are "Christians"  fighting to take away rights......like a womans right to choose?.....or Mexican Americans right to walk around  Arizona without "papers". ....let me ask you a Question how many Americans actually vote?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online Graybeard

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2012, 09:56:07 AM »
BM
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2012, 10:04:21 AM »
I believe they are all delusional. I only care about their delusion when they impact other people's civil rights.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2012, 10:27:49 AM »
I have already posted once today with evidence to show that you never read threads before commenting.
HAL
so what are you saying that the number of multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) in the UK should equal the number in the US (adjusted for population of course).
This explains what multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) are - I think Frank made it up for brevity
Quote
I don't know what "mvgr" means. I googled it and found nothing of importance.

: ) the answer was a little closer... I take it you read the post before commenting? ; )

Having jumped to an erroneous conclusion, you then use a bulldozer of assumed conclusions without any evidence whatsoever.

Let's see where you are doing it again: (hint it is in this post... read it.)
Well, our dear Graybeard doesn't think they are delusional,
Your assumption in this present thread as to what I said and what I have supported is further evidence that you have no idea what people are saying or writing.

It seems to me that you have stress-induced paranoia and you simply assume that people are saying things against you and your ideas.

This is what I actually said:

This has actually been addressed by Canada's psychiatric authority (I once had a link, and then lost it): the conclusion is that if a sufficient large number of the population exhibit a delusion, it cannot be classed as a mental illness because it can be said to be "normal".

As examples, if someone refuses to walk under ladders as it is "bad luck", or that pine cones foretell the weather, or anyone of thousands of superstitions, then this is not considered an abnormality.

Although Mooby may speak for himself, this is what he said:
As far as diagnosis of medical disorders, psychiatrists are trained as medical doctors, read the psychiatric literature, treat multiple patients with psychiatric disease per day, and are aiming to provide objective treatment to maximize the benefit to the patient.  The definition of delusion and the criteria for diagnosis and treatment that they use are set by the American Psychiatric Association (US) or the World Health Organization.  In short, they're the experts.

You then went off like a bucket of frogs on some rant claiming that you were the authority on all psychiatric matters (perhaps you have personal experience?) and all experts were wrong.

All the above can be found in the post http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23411.0.html

As you did not read the first post - you have missed what the OP was saying. Worse than that, you must have missed the title. Let me help you: "A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis"

Mooby and I have both said what the diagnosis will be and why it will be as it is.

I am afraid I cannot be held responsible for your wild and irrational imagination.

Now... knowing what you do about what Mooby and I have written, and having read the title of the post you misread, do you have anything to add?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline HAL

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Re: Are Christians Delusional?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2012, 11:14:24 AM »
Graybeard,

Sorry old chap, you got checkmated and you know it now. That's why you seem to forget my brilliant checkmate move I destroyed your point with.

If you say we have to follow the experts in their field, their definitions, such as the psychiatrists, then by your own rule, YOU have to be a Christian. Why?

Because the experts in the religious field, such as Doctor of Theology William Lane Craig, say that god is real. So do the rest of the experts in the field of Theology with degrees and PhDs in the field that you can't match. You cannot argue with the experts old chap. You said so yourself. Do you have a PhD in theology? So by your OWN rule, you now have to agree that there is a god. You now get to be fully on Mooby's side. Oh how nice you must feel right now.

I really enjoyed this, but I'm afraid you have lost the game.

Besides, I'm not the only person here who agrees that Christians are delusional, you guys are losing by a large margin in the poll, so I suggest you try to talk to some other members for their opinions. You might do a little better, I don't know.