Author Topic: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial  (Read 870 times)

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Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« on: August 06, 2012, 01:56:31 PM »
Speaking with a family member I discovered him to be a creationist, something I would not have guessed.  He asked me the standard, "You believe we evolved from apes?"  I explained divergence from a common ancestor and how this doesn't mean chimps have human offspring; a lecture not needed on most members of this board.  He seemed to understand the logic and the science, as I would expect.  However, after a few moments of thought he replied, "I don't believe that".  I interpret that as more, I won't believe that". 

Just wanted to commiserate and ask the rest of you if you have any experience with this unsettling mindset.

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 02:15:47 PM »
everday.

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 02:17:46 PM »
I've never run into that in person, although I very rarely see my totally-fundy relatives, and this hasn't come up in conversation. Folks I've talked with in person believe in old-earth creationism. Something like "well, god probably started the process ... sort of a creative spark or something ..."

I'm paraphrasing, but that's what I hear when they try to make sense of what they believe.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Nick

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 02:26:34 PM »
Yes, and you won't win the argument.  The mind set of those who do not want to explore options is set in stone.

You can lead a creationist to water but its damn hard to hold their head under long enough to take care of the situation. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 02:51:12 PM »
I think that there has only been one person in my life who I considered a friend who believed in creationism.  She was actually a member of my staff, and a woman who I respected tremendously. 

As someone who had had no breaks in life, she gave birth to her second child in a homeless shelter before her 21st birthday, and then managed to finish a college degree by her mid 20's.  No nonsense, smart, striving, she multitasked family and work and home and got it all done.  As a counselor working in a program designed to get women off of welfare, (a program I oversaw many many years ago) she was an inspiration to the women she served.   A fireball of energy, a taskmaster, a team player, a motivator, she often broke into brief, loud, poignant monologues.

And one day, her powerful voice carried throughout all of the rooms in an ample office suite, as she loudly proclaimed "Well I KNOW I didn't come from NO MONKEYS!"   

My heart sank.  But there was nothing for me to say.  I saw various staff making shocked eye contact with each other.  I dropped my eyes and shuffled papers or some such thing. 

That was many many years ago.  She lives in another state now, and I see updates on facebook on family vacations that she is taking and see photos of her kids' graduations.  I feel so good knowing that she is doing well.  She thanks god a lot on her facebook page, for all of the blessings in her life.

But I credit her strength, drive and intelligence for all of these "blessings" she enjoys.  They are her achievements.  Not the intervention of the same god who let her give birth in a homeless shelter so many years ago. 

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 03:15:02 PM »
However, after a few moments of thought he replied, "I don't believe that".

why not?
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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 04:43:38 PM »
However, after a few moments of thought he replied, "I don't believe that".

why not?

The point of my post!  There was no reason why, he just didn't like the idea of having come from apes.  It was a small scale version of a major problem. For the same reason, I'm not supposed to mention cosmology at my job teaching physics; despite evidence of the contrary, those for whom I work choose to deny it for religious reasons.

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 05:09:11 PM »
I know its completely unscientific, but when I see pictures of chimps and such, my reaction is, "how could we NOT have come from apes???"  The resemblence is striking.  :)

If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline VOR_voice_of_reason

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 05:12:50 PM »
The last conversation I had on this subject was a few months ago working near the Creation Museum. My co-worker, a believer and otherwise pretty smart guy, wanted to visit. I asked him "So you believe the earth is roughly 6,500 year old?" and his reply was "Well, it's more like 11,500 years old." I asked how he arrived at that number and he said I would have to read the bible to understand. I informed him I have read the bible and there are many detailed analysis that render a compelling estimation of about 6,500 years. He said that was wrong but was unwilling to provide his account of the 11,500 year estimation, claiming it was "too complicated". Anyway, I didn't consider the 5,000 year variance to be worth a lengthy debate so we left it at that. I told him I was not interested in the Creation Museum $29 admission fee and asked if they might accept four slaves in exchange for the $29 entry fee. My co-worker thought I was nuts. So I informed him that $29 dollars was equal to the price of four of my neighbors slaves if my ox was perchance to gore them and kill them (according to Exodus 21:32 - where killed slaves are compensated to the owner at a price of 30 shekels each). He had no idea what I was talking about. I told him "Well, you would have to read the bible to understand."

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 05:24:32 PM »
The last conversation I had on this subject was a few months ago working near the Creation Museum. My co-worker, a believer and otherwise pretty smart guy, wanted to visit. I asked him "So you believe the earth is roughly 6,500 year old?" and his reply was "Well, it's more like 11,500 years old." I asked how he arrived at that number and he said I would have to read the bible to understand.

*snip*

He had no idea what I was talking about. I told him "Well, you would have to read the bible to understand."

A Darwin for you, sir! And welcome to the forum  ;D
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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 05:41:07 PM »
The last conversation I had on this subject was a few months ago working near the Creation Museum. My co-worker, a believer and otherwise pretty smart guy, wanted to visit. I asked him "So you believe the earth is roughly 6,500 year old?" and his reply was "Well, it's more like 11,500 years old." I asked how he arrived at that number and he said I would have to read the bible to understand. I informed him I have read the bible and there are many detailed analysis that render a compelling estimation of about 6,500 years. He said that was wrong but was unwilling to provide his account of the 11,500 year estimation, claiming it was "too complicated". Anyway, I didn't consider the 5,000 year variance to be worth a lengthy debate so we left it at that. I told him I was not interested in the Creation Museum $29 admission fee and asked if they might accept four slaves in exchange for the $29 entry fee. My co-worker thought I was nuts. So I informed him that $29 dollars was equal to the price of four of my neighbors slaves if my ox was perchance to gore them and kill them (according to Exodus 21:32 - where killed slaves are compensated to the owner at a price of 30 shekels each). He had no idea what I was talking about. I told him "Well, you would have to read the bible to understand."

Sounds too good, I hope it's true!  It's amazing how little they have read, but the funny thing is that it doesn't seem to make a difference.  My students have read the bible (the OT only) more time through than I can fathom but they still cherry pick.

Offline VOR_voice_of_reason

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 07:46:15 PM »

Sounds too good, I hope it's true!  It's amazing how little they have read, but the funny thing is that it doesn't seem to make a difference.  My students have read the bible (the OT only) more time through than I can fathom but they still cherry pick.
[/quote]

It really happened. My co-worker is a really nice guy and is aware of the slavery passages in the Bible. I shouldn't say he had no idea what i was talking about. I should have said I had to explain my point. He is well versed on the bible. Of course, he thought I was making fun of him (like I said, he's pretty smart) and he was a little perturbed. When I pressed him on the slavery passages in the bible he said they were the old testament and not relevant. When I pointed to Jesus healing a slave but not releasing him from bondage and instead marveling at the slave owner (Luke 7:2) my co-worker told me I "missed the point" of the story. I asked what the real point of the story was and he didn't want to discuss it because "atheists only see what they want to see". Thanks for the thread. I enjoyed everyone's comments and the sites. Just found this forum today.

Offline Garja

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 08:39:12 PM »

The point of my post!  There was no reason why, he just didn't like the idea of having come from apes.  It was a small scale version of a major problem. For the same reason, I'm not supposed to mention cosmology at my job teaching physics; despite evidence of the contrary, those for whom I work choose to deny it for religious reasons.

How the hell do you teach physics without mentioning cosmology?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 04:13:51 AM »
Re Quesi's post above:

To people who credit god for their blessings, I always want to say 'You made it happen.  Give yourself credit'.  However, when someone failed despite their best efforts, and then god seems to rescue them, that leaves an almost indelible mark upon them.  It becomes the most ungrateful blasphemy to not recognize the gift one apparently received. In a way, it is admirable because they are loyal to whom they see as their benefactor. 

The caution I'd want to provide such folks is to not pile on unnecessary garbage atop their faith.  Fine.  You believe god helped you out when you needed it most, and nothing I'm likely to say to you would change that.  However, when some loudmouth tells you to hate, shun, discriminate, or worse, why pile that on top of something that is obviously so pure and beautiful to you.  Why sully the (supposed) miracle in your life with trash that other people wish you to carry?

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 04:49:29 AM »
I know its completely unscientific, but when I see pictures of chimps and such, my reaction is, "how could we NOT have come from apes???"  The resemblence is striking.  :)


...speak for yourself you noseless jut-browed hairy-foreheaded human, not to mention those miniature elephant ears bluetacked to that skull. ;)

Me? I am happy to be  made in gods image
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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 07:33:13 AM »
How the hell do you teach physics without mentioning cosmology?

Poorly? I guess.  At least in that field.  I work at a high school for Orthodox Jews so I'm expected to follow some of their tradition.  It's difficult toeing the line, but it's also hard to find work right now so I have to deal.

Offline Nick

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 07:42:32 AM »
Does that include circumcision? :o
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 09:33:09 AM »
The point of my post! 

Sorry, I did not use enough words. 

He didn't give a reason? He did not explain why he didn't believe it?  He just said "I don't believe it"? 

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Offline Garja

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 10:19:12 AM »
How the hell do you teach physics without mentioning cosmology?

Poorly? I guess.  At least in that field.  I work at a high school for Orthodox Jews so I'm expected to follow some of their tradition.  It's difficult toeing the line, but it's also hard to find work right now so I have to deal.

Man, I feel for you.  I start student teaching in 2 weeks and have starting thinking how I can discuss certain things in History without offending too many kids (public school).  The situation in the sciences... much rougher.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 03:21:26 PM »
The point of my post! 

Sorry, I did not use enough words. 

He didn't give a reason? He did not explain why he didn't believe it?  He just said "I don't believe it"?

Nope, no reason. And unwilling to discuss it further when asked.

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2012, 03:55:23 PM »
Speaking with a family member I discovered him to be a creationist, something I would not have guessed.  He asked me the standard, "You believe we evolved from apes?"  I explained divergence from a common ancestor and how this doesn't mean chimps have human offspring; a lecture not needed on most members of this board.  He seemed to understand the logic and the science, as I would expect.  However, after a few moments of thought he replied, "I don't believe that".  I interpret that as more, I won't believe that". 

Just wanted to commiserate and ask the rest of you if you have any experience with this unsettling mindset.

I had a similar conversation a few years back with my father. I always thought he believed in Evolution but he too is a Creationist.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 08:24:19 PM »
Speaking with a family member I discovered him to be a creationist, something I would not have guessed.  He asked me the standard, "You believe we evolved from apes?"  I explained divergence from a common ancestor and how this doesn't mean chimps have human offspring; a lecture not needed on most members of this board.  He seemed to understand the logic and the science, as I would expect.  However, after a few moments of thought he replied, "I don't believe that".  I interpret that as more, I won't believe that". 

Just wanted to commiserate and ask the rest of you if you have any experience with this unsettling mindset.

I had a similar conversation a few years back with my father. I always thought he believed in Evolution but he too is a Creationist.

-Nam

It's disheartening when it's someone you respect!

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 09:03:32 PM »
I don't respect people who show no respect for others. Therefore: I do not respect him. I haven't spoken to him (but oncein March) in over 2 years. But, either way: respect has nothing to do with it.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2012, 05:09:56 PM »
Well, I tend to give them the same look I give to that 13 year old kid that still believes in Santa.
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Offline Willie

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2012, 08:17:20 PM »
Does that include circumcision? :o
Probably just lecturing and grading papers.

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2012, 11:06:13 AM »
God is the pinnacle of religious belief.  Nothing can be allowed to be higher than God.  Science, a process intended to discover things, diminishes that pinnacle by explaining it in ways that do not require God's intervention; for example, finding evidence that supports common descent takes away from the creation story that helps to raise God up above everything.  So to the mind of the religious believer, common descent either must be false (defeating the threat), or it must have been God's doing in the first place (co-opting the threat).

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Re: Don't or won't: Creationist Denial
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 02:26:50 AM »
There was no reason why, he just didn't like the idea of having come from apes.

But he's an ape right now.
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