Author Topic: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!  (Read 1583 times)

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Offline kin hell

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2012, 01:06:36 AM »
HAL
so what are you saying

that the number of multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) in the UK should equal the number in the US (adjusted for population of course).

Because that is what you seem to be implying if
1. as you seem to need Frank to say  the UK allows gun ownership similar to the US
2. that the stupidity of the ease of access to guns in the US has nothing to do with the number of mvgr occurring in the US

So if the UK does allow guns in civilian hands to the same degree that the US does, then what is the reason for this worlds most fucking obvious statistic?

Come on then HAL, what is your explanation as to why the US is the  foremost exponent of the mvgr in the western democracies?


....again you have the gall to have beneath your avatar the question

"some people call me a bully ... what do you think?"

when your unjustifiable -ve darwins vs Frank here in this thread shows you to be exactly that.

If you cannot work it out for yourself you limited emotional vendetta vamp, then yes HAL you are a bully.

This whole thread was designed by you and titled by you with intent to engage Frank, just so you could engage Frank.

Lie all you fucking like that that was not your intent, and guess what, that'll just make you more of this lesser HAL we are having to bear with.

Get over yourself.

"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline HAL

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2012, 06:11:52 AM »
HAL
so what are you saying

that the number of multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) in the UK should equal the number in the US (adjusted for population of course).

I want Frank to start dispensing accurate statements. He's already lied about gun ownership in the U.K. Yes, lied. I've already called him out on it. He makes blanket statements designed to make people think civilians can't own guns in the U.K. that is false.

Here's one of hid lies -

We just don't see the point in adding to our problems by letting civilians have guns so we can start shooting each other.

^^^ That's a blatant lie. Civilians can own guns in the U.K.. Frank knows this. Therefore he lied to everyone.

Quote
Because that is what you seem to be implying if
1. as you seem to need Frank to say  the UK allows gun ownership similar to the US
2. that the stupidity of the ease of access to guns in the US has nothing to do with the number of mvgr occurring in the US

So if the UK does allow guns in civilian hands to the same degree that the US does, then what is the reason for this worlds most fucking obvious statistic?

Come on then HAL, what is your explanation as to why the US is the  foremost exponent of the mvgr in the western democracies?

I don't know what "mvgr" means. I googled it and found nothing of importance.

Quote
....again you have the gall to have beneath your avatar the question

"some people call me a bully ... what do you think?"

when your unjustifiable -ve darwins vs Frank here in this thread shows you to be exactly that.

Frank is into America bashing. I give out Darwins with legally required reasons. That's all I have to account for. Stop complaining.

Quote
If you cannot work it out for yourself you limited emotional vendetta vamp, then yes HAL you are a bully.

I disagree.

Quote
This whole thread was designed by you and titled by you with intent to engage Frank, just so you could engage Frank.

Sooooooo?

Quote
Lie all you fucking like that that was not your intent, and guess what, that'll just make you more of this lesser HAL we are having to bear with.


Sure that was my intent. What's wrong with engaging other members?

Quote
Get over yourself.

Oh now, you don't have to bully me like that do you?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 06:20:55 AM by HAL »

3sigma

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2012, 07:00:52 AM »
I want Frank to start dispensing accurate statements. He's already lied about gun ownership in the U.K. Yes, lied. I've already called him out on it. He makes blanket statements designed to make people think civilians can't own guns in the U.K. that is false.

If you want data comparing violence in the UK to violence in the US then go to this blog and scroll down to the entry America Is a Violent Country to see it presented graphically. The data is from the OECD. The two thumbnail graphs at the bottom of that entry display the UK and the US side by side. The contrast is stark.

There is a later blog entry, Assault Deaths Within the United States, showing CDC data for states and regions within the US.

Offline jetson

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2012, 07:22:25 AM »
I really wish we had better gun control laws and regulations in the U.S.  This has to be worse than the days when cowboys ran around with sidearms, IMO.  Thanks for the link 3sigma.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2012, 08:42:22 AM »
HAL
so what are you saying

that the number of multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) in the UK should equal the number in the US (adjusted for population of course).
This explains what multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) are - I think Frank made it up for brevity
Quote
I don't know what "mvgr" means. I googled it and found nothing of importance.

: ) the answer was a little closer... I take it you read the post before commenting? ; )

Quote
I want Frank to start dispensing accurate statements. He's already lied about gun ownership in the U.K. Yes, lied. I've already called him out on it. He makes blanket statements designed to make people think civilians can't own guns in the U.K. that is false.

Quote
That's a blatant lie. Civilians can own guns in the U.K.. Frank knows this. Therefore he lied to everyone.

I took Frank's sentence as meaning, "You need a good reason to own a firearm in the UK." You may be able to say if a reason for having a firearm is required in the US.

If he did not mean that then he is not being truthful, but, I always prefer the cock-up theory to the conspiracy.

As I understand the UK law, automatic firearms of any sort and handguns over the calibre of .22 may not be held legally. Weapons that have been rendered incapable of being fired, non-rifled antique weapons, shotguns and hunting rifles (deer) are permitted. However, the latter two are only available to persons who are of good character and have a reason for possessing one and access to a place where they may be fired legally.

Quote
....again you have the gall to have beneath your avatar the question "some people call me a bully ... what do you think?"
That's the sort of thing that needs putting to a secret ballot. : )
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 08:47:40 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline kin hell

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2012, 09:52:10 AM »
HAL
so what are you saying

that the number of multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) in the UK should equal the number in the US (adjusted for population of course).
This explains what multiple victim gun rampages (mvgr) are - I think Frank made it up for brevity
Quote
I don't know what "mvgr" means. I googled it and found nothing of importance.

: ) the answer was a little closer... I take it you read the post before commenting? ; )


Of course he read it, he just chose to not understand it purely to avoid answering the questions.

Or if he really wants, I am willing to concede that finally taking his hands off the control rod has definitely cost the emotional wreck significant IQ points.

So tell us HAL how is that posting "discipline", (that you promised to teach us by your shining example) going?

I think you've got badly distracted and have unfortunately exposed yourself polishing the wrong obsession....again.

Let go of that distort HAL, you are warping outta shape, or was the forum-god position your Dorian and this sadly lesser HAL the real picture?

So are you really going to continue to make the whole forum put up with your feet stamping 'cross threaded panty yanking tantys HAL?
It must bring tears to your eyes.




Graybeard 
I made up (mvgr) for brevity





"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline HAL

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2012, 10:09:42 AM »
Kin Hell,

Why are you bullying me?

Offline kin hell

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2012, 10:41:24 AM »
Kin Hell,

Why are you bullying me?

Your laughably lame and transparent attempt to distract the forum's awareness of your own poor behaviour, onto me by use of this kindergarten playground tactic, is laughably lame and transparent.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline HAL

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2012, 11:04:08 AM »
Please stop bullying me.

Offline Frank

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2012, 02:25:44 PM »
Lets try another tack. The constitution.

This is a link to a list of all the amendments to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Why are amendments needed? Obviously the people who wrote the constitution were not omniscient and so their original document had to be amended to take account of changing circumstances which could not have been forseen when the constitution was first written.

Now if you look at the list you will see all the amendments are related to improving governance, strengthening civil rights, and improving civic life generally. All except for two. The 18th (silly bugger amendment later repealed by the 21st amendment) and the 2nd amendment. Now the 18th amendment is proof that if an amendment becomes detrimental to the well being of the nation it can be repealed.

The 2nd amendment has reached that point. In fact it reached it along time ago. Whatever purpose it was introduced for has long since ceased to exist. It's a throwback to a bygone age. Now if it was one of those silly laws like not being allowed to wear pantaloons on St Swithins day nobody would be bothered. But it isn't. This is an amendment that is getting thousands of people killed yet no politician will talk about it.

19 people, not including the hundreds of little shooting that we don't hear about, have been shot to death in the last three weeks. Right in the middle of a presidential election. Yet what do we hear from the two candidates? Outside of a few platitudes and crocodile tears nothing, nada, nil. Politicians have become so cowed by the gun nuts that they are afraid to say anything. How can this be? If a disease was killing people this fast all efforts would be put into finding a cure for it. Well shootings have become an epidemic.

The 2nd amendment has been raised above human life itself. I think to a lot of Americans it is actually seen as the ultimate symbol of freedom. You hear it constantly. An unarmed society is not free. Well I and billions of other people live in unarmed societies and we're free. There is nobody on this planet who enjoys more practical freedom than I do yet I am completely unarmed. I don't think my neighbours are going go murder me or that my government is out to get me. True freedom is living in a civil democratic society under the rule of law.

I say that the 2nd amendment is an anachronism. It was written for a time that no longer exists and is out of place in a modern civilised society. Guns. for as much as we can. should be in the hands of law enforcement and the armed forces because they are trained to use them and out of the hands of every Tom, Dick, and Crackpot who can stump up the bucks to buy one.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline Nam

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2012, 02:40:27 PM »
I really wish we had better gun control laws and regulations in the U.S.  This has to be worse than the days when cowboys ran around with sidearms, IMO.  Thanks for the link 3sigma.

I don't think it is worse, per se. I just think the guns are more effective today, than yesterday. Despite what most think (based on films, I'm sure) pistol dueling wasn't as accurate as it would be today.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline jetson

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2012, 02:44:38 PM »
Frank - you have fairly accurately outlined the feelings of a hell of a lot of American citizens.  Now, if you can do this type of posting going forward, as opposed to making most of us feel like complete idiots and losers just for living here...

Seriously, for whatever reason, we have a bunch of people who are literally scared shitless of losing their guns, or their rights to carry them.  And now we have a freaking arms race between the criminals and the "good patriots" that has no end in sight.  Until both sides are pointing their personal Apache Helicopters at each other, it seems there will be no end.  And, just like the fact that we cannot have an atheist run for President, anyone who even hints at gun legislation is out on his ass faster than he can register as candidate.

Offline Frank

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2012, 02:54:05 PM »
Frank - you have fairly accurately outlined the feelings of a hell of a lot of American citizens.  Now, if you can do this type of posting going forward, as opposed to making most of us feel like complete idiots and losers just for living here...


Well maybe I can be a little shrill at times. I have strong feelings about this particular subject because I think many other bad things flow from it and I also don't like to see people being needlessly killed. But I do not wish to cause conflict if it can be helped. I will try to temper my posts in future.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline Nam

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2012, 02:55:14 PM »
Frank,

I know many think that perhaps it's just Republicans who are for guns but I know plenty of Democrats who are for them, as well. It's a political issue, and one not too many politicians wish to touch from fear of retribution by the "gone-toters" of America. That, and they don't want to lose their place in politics and the amount of money given to them by the gun companies and supporters.

Us, Americans know something should be done but at the same time: we know little will be done. A small scale war on guns by local cities and counties have been taken in the past but sometimes state laws override those. Even companies try to battle it but then state or local laws ovverride them. Such as when I worked at Disney guns were not permitted on company property except for law enforcement but then a state law went into effect that stated that employees were allowed to keep hand guns in their vehicles which trumped Disney's policy on the matter.

Some places in the U.S. it may be getting better, in other places it is getting worse. Sadly, guns are a state issue and not a federal one.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Frank

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2012, 02:58:45 PM »
I really wish we had better gun control laws and regulations in the U.S.  This has to be worse than the days when cowboys ran around with sidearms, IMO.  Thanks for the link 3sigma.

Actually that's true. Back in those days your average cowpoke couldn't afford it A gun and bullets were expensive. It's just a movie myth that every man had a 45 hanging from his hip. You were much more likely to get shot in the big eastern cities than any little western town.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline HAL

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2012, 04:37:41 PM »
Now if you look at the list you will see all the amendments are related to improving governance, strengthening civil rights, and improving civic life generally. All except for two. The 18th (silly bugger amendment later repealed by the 21st amendment) and the 2nd amendment. Now the 18th amendment is proof that if an amendment becomes detrimental to the well being of the nation it can be repealed.

Frank, I'm going to try and be more civil because I think you are trying to write about this issue better.

Here's the problem with your logic. The 18th amendment tried to prohibit something that people wanted very badly - booze. As is well documented - it didn't work. People got booze anyway and all it did was to create a black market and create criminals out of otherwise ordinary citizens.

Alcohol creates some very bad problems in society - addiction, drunk driving, broken homes, health problems, and death. Yet, we stopped trying to prohibit it because it's an impossible task.

The exact same thing would happen if you repealed the 2nd amendment. It's going to create a black market, new criminals, and worse, it won't stop people from getting guns because people here want guns. This society is not your society.

I don't know how else to break it to you - repealing it won't work to stop the problem and over and above that - repealing the 2nd amendment has, for all practical purposes - Zero chance of happening.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 06:12:27 PM by HAL »

Offline Death over Life

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2012, 07:28:31 PM »
All in all, the question I have for the gun banning, how come nobody seems to understand that these gun toting shootings are a cause of mental illness?

I'm overall agreeing with HAL's statements as that is what will happen.

The Aurora shooting, Loughner, and all the future shootings that happen, stem from mental illness. To help curb the shootings without going into necessary banning are improving our ability to treat mental illness and gun control, making it more like a vehicle and to own a vehicle, than to outright ban them.

In my honest opinion, I am worried about anybody and everybody owning a gun, no matter what, but I am also worried about nobody but cops and military owning guns. Just look at Mexico if a government with guns goes corrupt on a population unable to have a gun. There's a reason why the Mexicans immigrate here.

Banning the guns isn't going to create a solution, but rather create a new problem all on it's own. The other problem with the subject is, as politics are showing, there seems to be no moderates or middle man. It's always everybody or nobody owns a gun. Both extremeties neither solve nor help any problem or solution.

On Loughner, an article on him pleading guilty also said he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/jared-lee-loughner-guilty_n_1752917.html?1344368046&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D189548

We already know the Aurora shooter was seeing a doctor and gave them the plans for the theater shooting a week before it actually happened.

We need to stop concentrating on the tools and concentrate on the people. Let us say that we outright ban guns. Don't they all know that people know how to make bombs, and depending on the home-made bomb, can bring a far worse devastation than a handgun or a shotgun ever could?

Offline Nam

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2012, 07:38:35 PM »
I don't think all mass shootings deal with mental illness. Or, by default, all murders. I'm sure the many who have have been mentally ill but there are people out there who just enjoy killing people--and if someone tells me the gun was created for sport, hunting, and/or defense, I think of them as idiotic.

Some people enjoy killing other people, and I don't necessarily feel that is a "defect".

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Nick

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2012, 07:39:09 PM »
Pat Robertson is trying to push that the shooter was an atheist who hated God, country, and people.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2012, 07:43:50 PM »
Death over Life,

What do you think is the reason that America has so much more mental illness than other industrialized nations?

There are more and worse shootings there, after all, and if mental illness - rather than guns - is the cause of the shootings, then there must be more mental illness where there are more shootings.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Nick

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2012, 07:46:38 PM »
I think something is in the Chic-Fil-A sandwiches. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Nam

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2012, 07:50:12 PM »
Pat Robertson is trying to push that the shooter was an atheist who hated God, country, and people.

I sometimes get him mixed up with Pat Buchanan. I like Buchanan. Robertson is just a religious nut. I remember someone on TV called Buchanan "Pat Robertson". He got irate and said, "I'm not that nutcase!" I thought, "Maybe but sometimes you're close.".

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline shnozzola

Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2012, 08:46:38 PM »
What do you think is the reason that America has so much more mental illness than other industrialized nations?

There are more and worse shootings there, after all, and if mental illness - rather than guns - is the cause of the shootings, then there must be more mental illness where there are more shootings.
You didn't ask me, but...
The obvious answer is - if the mentally ill had access to, say, only rubber bands, we would be safer.  IMO, the NRA has brainwashed Americans with the most precise arguments possible to justify the need for guns.  But, like this, if the speed limit were reduced to 10 mph then people could say, look how many less deaths on the highway.  A tough argument gun owners vs gun regulators.  Too bad the gun owners are so terrified of the slippery slope the NRA screams about.  If we had more mature politics we could change laws drastically and see what happens , and reverse them to make both sides happier.  But.......   I wonder if a place like Aurora CO will toughen gun laws?  Jetson mentioned it as an arms race - such a common human solution.   :(
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 08:49:30 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Nam

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2012, 08:54:49 PM »
Actually, I think if the speed limit was 10 MPH, there'd be more accidents. What causes accidents, is many things: a blown tire, not paying attention to what you're doing, assholes, weather, etc., etc., but at such slow speeds, I think "attention" would play a bigger role.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Death over Life

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2012, 09:15:30 PM »
I don't think all mass shootings deal with mental illness. Or, by default, all murders. I'm sure the many who have have been mentally ill but there are people out there who just enjoy killing people--and if someone tells me the gun was created for sport, hunting, and/or defense, I think of them as idiotic.

Some people enjoy killing other people, and I don't necessarily feel that is a "defect".

-Nam

Let us not assume I’m thinking something I’m not.

To begin, I agree wholeheartedly. Not ALL of them are mental illness, but these recent mass shootings are. I don’t blame the gang or cartel violence under mental illness, but I am trying to talk of the single mass shooters like the 2 we had, the Sikh shooting, the Virginia Tech Massacre, the Columbine shooting etc.

I agree that there are some freaks out there who love to kill for the sake of it, and those people tend to have a criminal history involved. Overall, there will be an exception within every rule, but in general, we are able and have the technology to be able to notice patterns within people, which is how people can predict what may happen.

For a fact on guns, you’ll never hear me say that. Another myth is the phrase “assault rifle” or “assault gun”. There is no such thing as an assault rifle or assault gun because ALL of the guns are assault, or NONE of them are assault. There is no degree of assault. Guns were created for shooting. That’s it. There are no other alternate ways to use a gun as a tool (other than pistol-whipping, but that’s assault  ;))

Now that we are defining what a gun actually is and does, we can move on to the idea that I was thinking of.

I personally don’t feel that people who enjoy killing people is a “defect” as well, since it is our primal nature. However, if there is a case of schizophrenia, emotional breakdowns cause of bullying, suicidal ideals, PTSD for Veterans etc. I think this mental issue needs to be taken into consideration when we evaluate these mass shooters.

Even with what I’m talking about, this isn’t going to stop all shootings all the time, but it is a great step in the right direction where if somebody needs help, we can give them help, which will probably save lives. Remember with the Aurora shooting, had the Doctor looked at his’ journal before the shooting happened, we probably would not have 12+ dead and 60+ injured.

What do you think is the reason that America has so much more mental illness than other industrialized nations?

I don’t think America has much more mental illness than other industrialized nations. I just think we are far more ignorant of mental illness than the others, and we see the results of it. We still have a blood-thirsty mentality instead of learning about the victims and the shooters, and how we can change and alter them to avoid this happening again. Instead, as it is, people shoot, people die, the society wants the shooter to be given the death penalty, and thus we give it to them, and the cycle continues. Nobody want’s to break the cycle, and that is why I feel that America as opposed to the rest of the industrialized nations, is very ignorant when it comes to mental and psychological problems. This is part of prison reform imo.

There are more and worse shootings there, after all, and if mental illness - rather than guns - is the cause of the shootings, then there must be more mental illness where there are more shootings.

Ironically enough, the worst of all these shootings happen in Colorado. What’s funny is, how the Bible Belt is pretty bad when it comes to this, and the Red States in general. Yes, there are Blue States with this problem like California and Arizona, but overall, places where religion is placed much higher than Science, or logic, reason, rational, tend to be where these shootings are taken place.

As mentioned, there will always be exceptions to the rule. But notice the patterns. Notice the uber-religious, Conservative, Red States, gun-toters, tend to have the areas with the violence much more than the Blue, Liberal, Secular states. Notice the civilized cities and the gang-ridden cities. The one thing I will point out is indeed what Nam said, there are a lot of Democrats who are against removing the right to bear arms. Even Barack Obama is against the repeal of the 2nd Amendment.

The point once again is outright banning guns is only going to lead to more turmoil, which will fuel the fire of the idiots who think the government is out to get us, which is why like the Red Scare, the very presence of the word “Socialist” or dare I say “Communist” is so “bad, negative, evil” that anything to help improve our quality of life is going to go out the door because the more government we give the power to, the more they will take away our freedoms and tell us what and how to do. Once again though, how are you going to take the guns out of the gangs hands? I don’t see gang members just gladly giving their guns to the government.

However, the majority of America agrees with the removal of the NRA, and to promote gun control. Gun control is the measure that is needed to take, and then we can move on to the outside factors that cause the shootings like criminal history, mental illness, education, sources of income, wealth/poverty, etc.

But.......   I wonder if a place like Aurora CO will toughen gun laws?  Jetson mentioned it as an arms race - such a common human solution.   :(

This may sound harsh, and I agree with your post, but the answer is no. This is a big problem of guns. Nobody is willing to break the cycle.

All that’s going to happen is just like Columbine, just like Loughner, just like the Virginia Tech, just like the Sikh shooting, etc. all people do is cry tears, make publicity, and then a few years down the road, act like everything is handy dandy, and then once the same thing happens again, even in the same location, all anybody does is woe are us, cry, then move on with life like nothing happened.

The only people who will actually try to make a difference would be the victims themselves.

Personally, if America want’s to remember the 12 at Aurora, they would stop talking, and start actively getting involved with bringing up a charity/organization that will not only help the victims, but become large enough that they can actually combat, and defeat the NRA’ influence of guns in everybody’s hands. Until the nation attempts to break the cycle and until the NRA is removed, the victims of the Sikhs and the Aurora shooting, is all in vein.

If the USA could band together and break the cycle instead of letting more mass shootings happen, that imo, is America saying to the victims, “We will remember!”

With all due respect though, I don’t believe a prayer vigil is honestly remembering the victims. It’s one of the greatest things I hate about the concept of prayer. Only through prayer, do people think they are actively doing something to change the world when in reality, they are doing absolutely nothing at all. And that’s why I think if we were to remember, instead of the Christian’s praying, they get involved in combating the NRA’s grip hold on this subject in politics.

Offline Nam

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2012, 10:18:32 PM »
Death over Life,

Texas recently executed a man who killed another man. Apparently the "murderer" had an IQ of 62. That would be a "mental defect". However, can one say a person with an 160+ IQ has a "mental defect"? Or, just a person with high intelligence? Or, a person with normal intelligence. Where, in concern to intelligence, do these "defects" arise? Note: I understand other factors may be involved but let's exclude those, for now.

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« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 10:20:09 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2012, 07:31:53 AM »
All in all, the question I have for the gun banning, how come nobody seems to understand that these gun toting shootings are a cause of mental illness?

I disagree with that assessment, but that is not the point.  I'm not suggesting we take away all the guns.  At least, not yet.  I'm suggesting we have stricter laws about who gets them and what kind.  Right now we say crazy people cannot have guns.  But how do we know who is crazy?  How do gun sellers know? 

NY state has pretty strict gun laws compared to some states.  If I recall correctly, you may own long guns without registration, but handguns must be registered.  Here is where it gets tricky.  Private gun owners may sell to each other without registering.  So really, there is no regulation of who owns a gun.

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Offline Death over Life

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Re: Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2012, 03:31:03 PM »
Death over Life,

Texas recently executed a man who killed another man. Apparently the "murderer" had an IQ of 62. That would be a "mental defect". However, can one say a person with an 160+ IQ has a "mental defect"? Or, just a person with high intelligence? Or, a person with normal intelligence. Where, in concern to intelligence, do these "defects" arise? Note: I understand other factors may be involved but let's exclude those, for now.

-Nam

I didn’t get the chance to answer this question last night. Great question btw.

From what I have seen and witnessed and observed with mental illness, intelligence does not play a factor in mental health. There are those who have 160+ IQ and yet, they have a problem within themselves just like the 62 IQ individual. From what I have noticed on almost, if not, all of these shootings, murders, etc. it is almost always regarding the lack of thinking logically, reasonably, rationally, and more appealing to emotion, justifying the means to the end, and lovers quarrels, with the exception of gang related crimes of course.

The problem is, even intelligent people have the brain farts where rationale is out the window, and emotions guide their lives. This is why there are many people who are smart, yet suicidal, or crazy. Usually though, I can’t perfectly describe it, but there usually is always a sense of knowing who’s breaking down mentally and losing control of themselves, due to the signs they give off. The problem lies in the fact that we overall as a society, stick to ourselves and to hell with everybody else, which is why these symptoms go unnoticed.

There are other factors, but the blunt answer to the question, intelligence factor has no bearing as to who will be “defective” and who will not. With that being said, those who do have an extremely small IQ are going to have a tougher time understanding using guns and the point and why as opposed to those with a high IQ, but at the same time though, the high IQ individuals are even more scary because if something switches in their head, they can plan out an attack and know very well how to hide it etc. just like the Aurora shooter. But the one thing that I will take into consideration about him though is he knew he was sick and was seeing a doctor, and the doctor, had they read the journal before instead of after, could have avoided that entire tragedy to begin with.

I disagree with that assessment, but that is not the point.  I'm not suggesting we take away all the guns.  At least, not yet.  I'm suggesting we have stricter laws about who gets them and what kind.  Right now we say crazy people cannot have guns.  But how do we know who is crazy?  How do gun sellers know? 

As is, they don’t care. Until we actually remove the NRA and get serious about this discussion in politics, it doesn’t matter.

In another post, if I ever do it, I would actually describe what I believe should be gun control, who can and can’t have one, how to make sure the guns won’t be illegally distributed like the black market, etc.

The beginning answer is obviously to start treating guns like cars and alcohol.

NY state has pretty strict gun laws compared to some states.  If I recall correctly, you may own long guns without registration, but handguns must be registered.  Here is where it gets tricky.  Private gun owners may sell to each other without registering.  So really, there is no regulation of who owns a gun.

That’s the problem. There are many loopholes with the current laws that go unnoticed because anything that happens, the NRA steps in and stops it. Now although I can’t stand Operation Fast and Furious because of how stupid the idea was to begin with, part of it’s failure was the NRA stepping in the middle of it and saying, by law, the Federal Government can not track any of the guns.

The proper way once again to get a legit discussion on guns and it’s control and freedom, we either need the NRA gone, or need to start from scratch, create ourselves an organization to become as great or even greater than the NRA to combat the NRA’s tyranny. Since the NRA backs Republicans, let this equally valid future organization back the Democrats, or which ever third party is for gun control, maybe the green party who knows.