Another Shooting! Prepare for More America Bashing!

[HAL]

Shooting Reported at Sikh Temple

Multiple people were reported shot at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wis., according to local media. The shooter was a white male who had two handguns, according to early reports. The shooting reportedly took place around 10:45 a.m. local time, between eight and 20 people are thought to have been injured, and the victims may have included a police officer. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported that police in Oak Creek are not providing further information on the shooting yet. The paper reported that emergency medical-transport helicopters were called to the scene, along with the Milwaukee County Sheriff’s Office.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2012/08/05/shooting-reported-at-sikh-temple.html

The title, that I have now amended, was not at all necessary. It has cheapened what is a tragic story. I have edited it.

We would be happier if you gave a little thought to postings and the effect of titles and emotive phrases. If you have problems with a poster, report them to a Mod. Mods will view all complains impartially and in context.

Graybeard Mod

[Nick]

Would not be surprised if the shooters thought Sikh is the same as Muslim.

[Garja]

Would not be surprised if the shooters thought Sikh is the same as Muslim.  Is a peker-wood redneck.

Fixed.


I mean, sleeveless shirt?

[Nam]

Yes, let's blame rednecks for the racial stereotypes of the U.S., they obviously are the only racists in the U.S., let's forget this happened in Wisconsin, and not the south but yes! Blame the redneck.

-Nam

[Graybeard]

To me, this is very, very sad. The Sikhs are, by and large, a very civilised lot. They have little or no extremism, and what there is, is directed towards having an independent home land; they have never pushed their religion which believes in male/female equality; any rebellions they have taken part in have been minor and often just, and they were loyal allies in WW2 and continue to play an honourable military role in India.



 

[Garja]

Yes, let's blame rednecks for the racial stereotypes of the U.S., they obviously are the only racists in the U.S., let's forget this happened in Wisconsin, and not the south but yes! Blame the redneck.

-Nam

I am from Southern Ohio, right at the foothills of the Appalachian range... just for the record.... not "the south" yet I am familiar with the stereotype.  Also, I was generalizing the attitude associated with generally hate-oriented-crime at an attempt at humor in a non-humorous situation.  I do not think that region is necessarily an indicator of tolerance or bigotry.  I will apologize if my comment offended you Nam, offending would be the opposite of my intention.

[shnozzola]

So now possibly a Christian has killed a Sikh, after Muslims have threatened Jews, years after Muslims have killed Christians, Sunnis have attacked Shiites, protestants have attacked Catholics, while currently Christians kill witches, when historically Christians have …………

Meanwhile, atheists work on a cure for cancer.

[Quesi]

Would not be surprised if the shooters thought Sikh is the same as Muslim.

My thoughts exactly.  The Sikh communities have been experiencing as much (if not more) bias crime attacks as the Muslim communities in the US.  For some reason, the turban style of the men really pisses off the hate mongers. 

I don't know that much about their beliefs or practices, other than the fact that they are closely related to Hindus.  There is a small but solid Sikh community in my neighborhood, mixed in with the other South Asians who are mostly Bangladeshi and Pakistani and Afghani.  There are a lot of Sikh taxi drivers in my neighborhood, and my program has served some Sikh families.  A few Sikh kids in my daughter's school.   

The men (and boys) have the last name of Singh and the women (and girls) have the last name of Kaur.  This gets a little confusing enrolling their kids in school, with spouses who have different last names, and siblings who have different last names. 

I am angry and ashamed to live in a country where people die because of the hate and fear of others. 

[Graybeard]

The men (and boys) have the last name of Singh and the women (and girls) have the last name of Kaur.  This gets a little confusing enrolling their kids in school, with spouses who have different last names, and siblings who have different last names. 

If you ask them, a lot of them have a middle name, Wiki

Sikh men, who for religious reasons are supposed to be named Singh as their surname, sometimes instead take Singh as their middle name, such as Mudhsuden Singh Panesar, better known as Monty Panesar. Sikh women, who for similar reasons normally take the surname Kaur, may instead take it as a middle name: a notable example is Parminder Kaur Nagra.

[Nam]

Yes, let's blame rednecks for the racial stereotypes of the U.S., they obviously are the only racists in the U.S., let's forget this happened in Wisconsin, and not the south but yes! Blame the redneck.

-Nam

I am from Southern Ohio, right at the foothills of the Appalachian range... just for the record.... not "the south" yet I am familiar with the stereotype.  Also, I was generalizing the attitude associated with generally hate-oriented-crime at an attempt at humor in a non-humorous situation.  I do not think that region is necessarily an indicator of tolerance or bigotry.  I will apologize if my comment offended you Nam, offending would be the opposite of my intention.

Those from mountainess areas are usually referred to as "hilly-billies", as an aunt of mine told me who's originally from Kentucky, though "rednecks" are usually a term for white ignorant (uneducated) people of the midwest and southern regions, it's usually a term someone from the northeast, or west uses toward those in the south. But my main objective of the "term" has more to do with the idea that anyone who commits a crime in the U.S. where it's "race-related" and presumably done by white people seems to be the goto for the stereotypical image of a person who is racist: i.e. they are southern, white, etc., therefore a "redneck". As I've explained many times before: anyone, anywhere can be a racist. Proof is: http://stormfront.org -- for all anyone knows it could have been a skinhead, or a neo-nazi, or just a plain racist. Period. Or it could've been political, or based on religious point-of-views. Until the facts are all in: let's cease with the labeling.


-Nam

[jedweber]

I don't know about "America bashing," but I certainly feel shame and disappointment in my country after incidents like this. Especially when we can't even have a  reasonable public discussion about gun control, but the usual suspects chime in with talk about "Christian values" or connect the crimes to atheism or evolution or lack of prayer, etc. I'm betting we'll see politicians in the NRA's pocket come out again today and say the problem would be solved if only everyone walked around with concealed weapons!   

[Garja]

I don't know about "America bashing," but I certainly feel shame and disappointment in my country after incidents like this. Especially when we can't even have a  reasonable public discussion about gun control, but the usual suspects chime in with talk about "Christian values" or connect the crimes to atheism or evolution or lack of prayer, etc. I'm betting we'll see politicians in the NRA's pocket come out again today and say the problem would be solved if only everyone walked around with concealed weapons!

This is a good point.  I am for our constitutional right to bear arms, but the right has made it where there cannot even be legitimate public discourse on the topic without being accused of trying to "take away our freedoms".  I dont think the "problem" is that guns exist, but I think we need to do a better job of determining who can own them, because as the last two examples we have had in this country indicate... the problem is mental illness. (And yes, I think believing in White Supremacy is a form of mental illness, just a socially contrived one).

[jedweber]

Believe it or not, I'm for our Constitutional right to bear arms, too. I just don't think this necessarily precludes things like registration and permitting, limits on mass gun/ammo purchases, limits on assault weapons and "cop killer" bullets, etc, limits on carrying handguns around in public, closing massive loopholes in the enforcement of background checks, etc.

The NRA and like-minded people oppose all such things reflexively, and they usually win.

On a side note, where the hell are the so-called "pro-lifers" on this issue? If they want to claim they're not just obsessed with fetuses and abortion, why don't more of them speak out on gun carnage? I'm curious to see if they're willing to criticize the NRA, since they both tend to support the same politicians...

[Azdgari]

^^ The proliferation of firearms is a necessary evil to help stop abortion.  The doctors must be killed at all costs.

[Garja]

I'm sure I am not the first to mention this on fact on this site, but I find it the utmost example of hypocrisy that the majority of the pro-life people are the same group that are staunchly opposed to actually helping (financially) out that fetus once it becomes a CHILD.

The conversation in my head goes like this:

Mother to be: Wow, I have made an irresponsible decision, as much as it saddens me I cannot afford a child, an abortion seems the best course of action.
Pro-life: No, im sorry, it is Gods will that this child be born, you are legally mandated to carry this child to term.
Mom: But I cant afford to give a child the life they should have.
PL: Sorry, God demands it.
Mom: Okay, but I am going to need financial help in the form of welfare to raise this child.
PL: That is not my responsibility, you shouldn't have had the child.

Wow, this thread went from gun control to Abortion in a hurry.  Sorry for contributing to the derailment.

But yeah, I agree that people should be able to be armed (I do own a gun), but I see no reason why a private citizen needs an arsenal.

[pianodwarf]

I'm sure I am not the first to mention this on fact on this site, but I find it the utmost example of hypocrisy that the majority of the pro-life people are the same group that are staunchly opposed to actually helping (financially) out that fetus once it becomes a CHILD.

Right.  As Barney Frank once said, it's almost as though they believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth.

[Frank]

For those of you who thing this kind of thing is a "rare" occurrence. This is a list of all the mass shootings in America since 1991.

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadliest-shooting-rampages/

Look at their faces and then tell me which ones shouldn't be allowed to have a gun. Picked this one out at random.

Gunman kills 8 at Seal Beach salon
A suspect is arrested. A custody dispute is blamed in the worst mass killing in county history
October 12, 2011|By Tony Barboza, Louis Sahagun and Nicole Santa Cruz, Los Angeles Times

A gunman apparently enraged over a custody dispute walked into a crowded Seal Beach hair salon where his former wife worked and opened fire, killing eight people and critically wounding another person in the deadliest shooting in Orange County history.

Eight people dead because of a custody dispute. Anywhere else that wouldn't get past a slanging match but in a society where almost anyone has a gun even the smallest disputes can escalate with fatal consequences and frequently does.

[Quesi]

For those of you who thing this kind of thing is a "rare" occurrence. This is a list of all the mass shootings in America since 1991.

Shootings in my neighborhood are so much more sensible.  Last December we had the famed "fake beard shooter" who opened first on police in the middle of the day.  http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/12/02/man-dressed-in-fake-beard-hat-and-dark-glasses-shoots-at-nypd-officers-in-queens/  They caught him a couple of weeks later.

But my favorite was well over a decade ago.  A drug kingpin was having dinner with his wife and kids and bodyguard in the busy commercial district during the Christmas shopping season.  Apparently, some men walked into the restaurant, shot the guy and his bodyguard dead, and walked out. 

No one saw anything.  Not his wife or kids.  Not the restaurant employers.  Not the diners.  Not the busy holiday shoppers outside the restaurant. 

No one saw a thing.  And that is that. 

[Garja]

Frank, not to throw stones, but as someone pretty new to the site.  Where are you from exactly?  I am just curious.

[Seppuku]

I think Frank makes a fair point on disputes. Some can end in violence and do. You'd only need to watch something like the Jeremy Kyle show to see what kinds of situations certain scumbags get into and really I would not trust those people with a gun. You've got wife beaters, people who get into stupid fights over nothing and generally have a really poor temper, which might be heightened by drugs and/or alcohol. When these people are confronted about things like their wife-beating (or husband) they generally talk about how they didn't mean it and talk about how they've just lost control and even have an anger problem. Yes, these probably may resolve in violence a weapon may be use. A melee weapon like a knife is not necessarily going to kill somebody should you could into a rage and the person you're attacking may be able to defend themselves.

On the other hand, if a gun is used, well, your chances of survival are thinned. You'd probably only be relying on bad aim or  some other handicap of the attacker to survive. I'd argue in this situation you're in less control.

I probably have some other points to try and make a case, but my brain is a reeeeeeeally fried now and prolly need to catch up on lots of lost sleep.

[Frank]

Frank, not to throw stones, but as someone pretty new to the site.  Where are you from exactly?  I am just curious.

I'm from the UK. For future reference if you wish to know where posters are from just click on their name and check their profile,

[HAL]

Frank, not to throw stones, but as someone pretty new to the site.  Where are you from exactly?  I am just curious.

He's from the U.K. where citizens aren't allowed to have guns ... except for ... the ones that are allowed to have guns.

[Frank]

Frank, not to throw stones, but as someone pretty new to the site.  Where are you from exactly?  I am just curious.

He's from the U.K. where citizens aren't allowed to have guns ... except for ... the ones that are allowed to have guns.

You cannot own an automatic weapon or a handgun and if you a caught with either you will get five years in prison.

The two most important laws came in the wake of two national tragedies.

Michael Ryan's massacre of 16 people in Hungerford in 1987 led to the banning of all modern semi-automatic rifles, the range of guns that can be fired rapidly without needing to be reloaded.

Nine years later, Thomas Hamilton killed 16 schoolchildren and their teacher when he opened fire at a school in Dunblane. Parliament banned all handguns and there is now a mandatory five-year jail sentence for possession.

Since then, we have seen moves against criminal conversion of imitation firearms - a tactic used by backstreet engineers working for gangs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10220974

This is the whole point. When these terrible events happen we do something about it you don't. We may not always be successful but at least we try.

[HAL]

You cannot own an automatic weapon or a handgun and if you a caught with either you will get five years in prison.

Can you own a gun of any kind?

Yes or No Frank?

(the answer for those of you who don't follow Frank is Yes)

[Frank]

You cannot own an automatic weapon or a handgun and if you a caught with either you will get five years in prison.

Can you own a gun of any kind?

Yes or No Frank?

(the answer for those of you who don't follow Frank is Yes)

Why don't you just read the link and find out for yourselves,

[Garja]

Frank, not to throw stones, but as someone pretty new to the site.  Where are you from exactly?  I am just curious.

I'm from the UK. For future reference if you wish to know where posters are from just click on their name and check their profile,

I swear I tried that and didn't see it.... now of course I do. doh!

[Nick]

Somebody could make a lot of money selling tshirts with a big bulls eye on each one.  We might as well make it easy for the shooters.

[jetson]

Somebody could make a lot of money selling tshirts with a big bulls eye on each one.  We might as well make it easy for the shooters.

Target should do it.  Just sayin'.

[Seppuku]

You cannot own an automatic weapon or a handgun and if you a caught with either you will get five years in prison.

Can you own a gun of any kind?

Yes or No Frank?

(the answer for those of you who don't follow Frank is Yes)

The point is, yes it is possible to a own a gun, but the laws are extremely strict, it's difficult to obtain a license and your choice is extremely limited. So there's no gun culture, no one carrying a gun for self defence and very few people actually owning a gun and those who do are usually farmers or people who go hunting for birds or rabbits. It is still possible for somebody to shoot someone, but if you look at our gun crime and compare it to the US the number is minuscule. So we must be doing something right with out gun laws.

So, yes, there are those who are allowed guns but it's absolutely nothing like how it is in the US and certainly the attitude towards guns is very different.