Author Topic: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis  (Read 9448 times)

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Offline HAL

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #116 on: August 09, 2012, 07:42:01 PM »
I'm not talking about whether or not they are normal on a case by case basis. I am sayng that there are enough cases of delusion to consider it normal. It happens a lot.

Well I could ask the following questions then -

What evidence do you have that it happens "a lot"

Is a "case" of delusion something to be considered normal? Why then do you call it a "case'. Sounds like a doctor's file.

Why hasn't it happened to me?

Quote
I wasn't competing. Just giving an opinion.

Lets' not fool each other . Almost all arguments like this are competitions here. Don't be delusional.

Quote
And I still don't actually know what you have in mind when you say 'normal'. Do you mean 'occurring often'? Does something have to occur a certain minimum number of times before you consider it normal? I imagine we all would have a different idea of how frequently something needs to occur before it could be considered normal.

I've already said. There is nothing more to add.

Quote
Or do you mean normal as in "it can reasonably be expected to occur"? Do you think delusion can be reasonably expected? I sure do.

No.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #117 on: August 09, 2012, 07:49:14 PM »
MM what do you mean reasonably expected? and give me an example of the delusion I can reasonably expect?....Do you mean like when people tell kids the Easter bunny and Santa are real?*** and Jesus*** (added in edit)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 07:55:28 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #118 on: August 09, 2012, 08:08:32 PM »


What evidence do you have that it happens "a lot"


The link you provided is a good example of what I would call delusion. The Jonestown massacre comes to mind. The Norway shooting. The recent batman shooting. Most mass-muders, I would imagine could be said to have been prompted by some sort of delusion. Every poor fool that responds to an email promising them lottery riches in Nigeria. I believe many WWGHA members consider me to be delusional for believeing in God, and there are plenty more where I came from.

Whether or not we agree in all cases on what was and wasn't delusional thinking, have I satisfied you that it is quite common? It's common enough for me to consider it normal and to be expected.


Is a "case" of delusion something to be considered normal? Why then do you call it a "case'. Sounds like a doctor's file.

Are you suggesting that something treated by a doctor, be it a GP or Psychiatrist, is abnormal?


Why hasn't it happened to me?


Even if that is true, I don't see how its relevant to the discussion on whether or not delusion generally can be considered normal. After all, I don't have athsma, but I don't consider it ab-normal. Its widespread.


Lets' not fool each other . Almost all arguments like this are competitions here. Don't be delusional.


After some honest introspection I will concede there have been occasions when i have tried to 'outwit' somebody. But I haven't in this thread.


And I still don't actually know what you have in mind when you say 'normal'. Do you mean 'occurring often'? Does something have to occur a certain minimum number of times before you consider it normal? I imagine we all would have a different idea of how frequently something needs to occur before it could be considered normal.
Quote

I've already said. There is nothing more to add.


Well, it wasn't clear to me. Still isn't.



Or do you mean normal as in "it can reasonably be expected to occur"? Do you think delusion can be reasonably expected? I sure do.
Quote

No.

'No' to my first question or second?

I will guess second, and ask: why do you consider delusion to be unreasonable in its occurrence? In a population of billions, how is it a surprise?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 08:12:46 PM by magicmiles »
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Offline HAL

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #119 on: August 09, 2012, 08:13:10 PM »
magic,

I'm going to give you one of the most honest answers I can give right now.

I am having a glass of Chardonnay and watching a baseball game, and I can't reasonably respond to you at this time.

I will attempt it tomorrow.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #120 on: August 09, 2012, 08:14:03 PM »
and I can't get the quotes to work. Hope you can make sense of my last post.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2012, 08:33:39 PM »
MM what do you mean reasonably expected? and give me an example of the delusion I can reasonably expect?....Do you mean like when people tell kids the Easter bunny and Santa are real?*** and Jesus*** (added in edit)

I don't know you on a personal level, so I have no idea what sort of delusion you might be susceptible to, if any.

But you don't need to experience something personally for it to be widespread throughout the world. I listed a bunch of examples of what I consider delusion in my response to Hal.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #122 on: August 09, 2012, 09:11:18 PM »
MM what do you mean reasonably expected? and give me an example of the delusion I can reasonably expect?....Do you mean like when people tell kids the Easter bunny and Santa are real?*** and Jesus*** (added in edit)

I don't know you on a personal level, so I have no idea what sort of delusion you might be susceptible to, if any.

But you don't need to experience something personally for it to be widespread throughout the world. I listed a bunch of examples of what I consider delusion in my response to Hal.
So other religous people who do not agree Jesus is there king and Yaweh as their God are delusional? but somehow you are not?

 Based on (lack) evidence I think you are ALL delusional
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Offline Mooby

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2012, 09:12:29 PM »
Now back to Hitler how was he delusional where the early "Christians" were revelled as heroes of new lands they were stealing and building over the bodies of their dead heathens they conquered?.......more CLEAR how was Hitler a delusional lunatic where Columbus and others were heroes? same result a lot of DEAD bodies
It's impossible to say for sure whether Hitler's Aryanism and support of eugenics were based in delusion or were simply false beliefs.  There's no evidence that I know of that he ever had a mental health disorder, though his bizarre actions certainly don't rule it out.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2012, 09:19:31 PM »
So other religous people who do not agree Jesus is there king and Yaweh as their God are delusional? but somehow you are not?

??

I didn't say that.


 Based on (lack) evidence I think you are ALL delusional

good for you. It means you agree delusions are normal.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #125 on: August 09, 2012, 11:15:24 PM »
Now back to Hitler how was he delusional where the early "Christians" were revelled as heroes of new lands they were stealing and building over the bodies of their dead heathens they conquered?.......more CLEAR how was Hitler a delusional lunatic where Columbus and others were heroes? same result a lot of DEAD bodies
It's impossible to say for sure whether Hitler's Aryanism and support of eugenics were based in delusion or were simply false beliefs.  There's no evidence that I know of that he ever had a mental health disorder, though his bizarre actions certainly don't rule it out.
Funny how you can claim a Christian that does not see things the same way you do as having a mental health disorder or "false beliefs".....Does that include the likes of Fred PHelps as well?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2012, 11:18:36 PM »
So other religous people who do not agree Jesus is there king and Yaweh as their God are delusional? but somehow you are not?

??

I didn't say that.


 Based on (lack) evidence I think you are ALL delusional

good for you. It means you agree delusions are normal.
The first point.....are other religous people who fail to see Jesus and Yaweh as the true God(s) of the world delusional .....don't dodge the question

 The second point.....having a magic sky-daddy is delusional you just fail to see it ....especially if you view all other religions as delusional
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #127 on: August 09, 2012, 11:41:43 PM »

The first point.....are other religous people who fail to see Jesus and Yaweh as the true God(s) of the world delusional .....don't dodge the question

 The second point.....having a magic sky-daddy is delusional you just fail to see it ....especially if you view all other religions as delusional

I can't possibly give an opinion on whether someone is delusional based on the vague description you give. They'd be wrong, sure, but its not necessarily delusional to be wrong.

And I don't give a rats arse if you think Christians are delusional. I started commenting in this thread because of Hals's statement that it is not normal to be delusional, and so far no-body has caused me to change my opinion that Hal is wrong.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2012, 11:50:14 PM »

The first point.....are other religious people who fail to see Jesus and Yahweh as the true God(s) of the world delusional .....don't dodge the question

 The second point.....having a magic sky-daddy is delusional you just fail to see it ....especially if you view all other religions as delusional

I can't possibly give an opinion on whether someone is delusional based on the vague description you give. They'd be wrong, sure, but its not necessarily delusional to be wrong.

And I don't give a rats arse if you think Christians are delusional. I started commenting in this thread because of Hals's statement that it is not normal to be delusional, and so far no-body has caused me to change my opinion that Hal is wrong.
how if you are WRONG are you NOT delusional?......REMINDER theists who ascribe to another religion think you are WRONG and DELUSIONAL...as do I
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #129 on: August 09, 2012, 11:57:16 PM »
how if you are WRONG are you NOT delusional?......REMINDER theists who ascribe to another religion think you are WRONG and DELUSIONAL...as do I

Its possible to be wrong without being delusional. But if you disagree with that, I guess we're all delusional because we're all wrong from time to time.

And once more: I don't care if you think I'm delusional, or if other theists think I am. So what? It has nothing to do with the point I was making and I don;t know why you keep on about it.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2012, 12:01:53 AM »
Funny how you can claim a Christian that does not see things the same way you do as having a mental health disorder or "false beliefs".....Does that include the likes of Fred PHelps as well?
Christian? I mentioned Aryanism and eugenics; Christianity and/or Hitler's questionable theological beliefs never entered into it. Both of these things were popular beliefs in the early 20th Century, and were purported to be based in science, but the science ended up contradicting them. So yeah, the beliefs themselves are now known to be untrue. 

I know next to nothing about Fred Phelps, other than he and his family started their own church that goes around picketing.
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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #131 on: August 10, 2012, 05:08:11 AM »
Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.
Thanks.
Note how it says concidered. Firstly by whom, and secondly it goes again the commonly agreed dictionary definition of delusion, I.E. an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument (oxford english)

Also you may want to look up "Delusional Disorder", these people are considered normal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

The following can indicate a delusion:

1, The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
2, That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
3, Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
4, The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
5, There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
6, An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
7, The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background.
8, The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.
9, The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
10, Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.

The majority above fit with the theist, so it is clear.
No matter how Mooby want's to spin it, religion is delusional.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #132 on: August 10, 2012, 09:43:13 AM »
how if you are WRONG are you NOT delusional?......REMINDER theists who ascribe to another religion think you are WRONG and DELUSIONAL...as do I

Its possible to be wrong without being delusional. But if you disagree with that, I guess we're all delusional because we're all wrong from time to time.

And once more: I don't care if you think I'm delusional, or if other theists think I am. So what? It has nothing to do with the point I was making and I don;t know why you keep on about it.
Like a fish talking to a leaking oil tanker.....AGAIN....do you view people of other religions wrong or delusional or both,,,,or niether?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 09:46:04 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #133 on: August 10, 2012, 09:48:20 AM »
Funny how you can claim a Christian that does not see things the same way you do as having a mental health disorder or "false beliefs".....Does that include the likes of Fred PHelps as well?
Christian? I mentioned Aryanism and eugenics; Christianity and/or Hitler's questionable theological beliefs never entered into it. Both of these things were popular beliefs in the early 20th Century, and were purported to be based in science, but the science ended up contradicting them. So yeah, the beliefs themselves are now known to be untrue. 

I know next to nothing about Fred Phelps, other than he and his family started their own church that goes around picketing.
OK then do you think Phelps and others like him to be delusional...in your opinion of course,how bout Mormons?
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Offline Mooby

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2012, 10:11:07 AM »
Like I said, I know very little about Phelps. Mormons, JWs, etc. appear to be religious groups; I don't know of any specific members who make me question a possible delusion.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #135 on: August 10, 2012, 10:59:44 AM »
Like I said, I know very little about Phelps. Mormons, JWs, etc. appear to be religious groups; I don't know of any specific members who make me question a possible delusion.
OK (DODGE) in general  are they sane or koo koo for coaco-puffs
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Offline Mooby

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #136 on: August 10, 2012, 11:56:14 AM »
I.
Don't.
Know.
Any.

I have doubts that an entire religious group is insane, but again, I have never met a Mormon. The few JWs I have met as patients all seemed quite sane at first glance, though I didn't do a psychiatric eval on them. Ther were no obvious indicators of mental disease.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Garja

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #137 on: August 10, 2012, 12:13:17 PM »
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #138 on: August 10, 2012, 12:17:56 PM »
I know that Sulu does not really exist. But I am so happy that George Takei does. Bless you, George Takei. Ramen. :D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #139 on: August 10, 2012, 12:32:25 PM »
Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.
Thanks.
Note how it says concidered. Firstly by whom...
By anyone. If one of my patients tells me that they pray to God every evening, I would categorize that as normal Christian behaviour; if they tell me that they heard God telling them to kill their children, I would recognize that as abnormal Christian thinking (and take appropriate action to protect the children).

Quote
and secondly it goes again the commonly agreed dictionary definition of delusion,
That's because it a definition of a specific diagnostic category, it's not defining delusion itself.

Quote
Also you may want to look up "Delusional Disorder", these people are considered normal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder The following can indicate a delusion:

<snip>

The majority above fit with the theist, so it is clear.
This a definition of a specific trait. You may disagree with it, but there it is. And as it stands, the average theist doesn't qualify:

Quote
1, The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Most Christians don't do this.
2, That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Changes in a new Christian's life are explicable.
3, Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it. Most Christians aren't secretive.
4, The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. BudaiWiki
5, There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly. Maybe.
6, An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Many Christians don't do this. Old Church Guy, MagicMiles, Mooby...
7, The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background. Doesn't apply, obviously.
8, The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. I know many moderate Christians in the UK who are not over-invested.
9, The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs. Obviously doesn't apply to mainstream Christians. Their large numbers establish their behaviour as normal.
10, Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien. I don't see how a life-long Christian's beliefs could qualify as 'uncharacteristic' or 'alien'.

So no, the majority of those don't fit normal theists.

Which is hardly surprising, as it's designed not to.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 12:45:35 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline HAL

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #140 on: August 10, 2012, 02:19:59 PM »
Oh this looks fun, can I try?


1, The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.


Gnu said "Most Christians don't do this."

HAL says "Most Christians do this"


2, That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.


Gnu said "Changes in a new Christian's life are explicable."

HAL says "Yes the idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and who can explain how it alters the way of life?"


3, Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.


Gnu said "Most Christians aren't secretive."

HAL says "Maybe"


4, The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.



Gnu said "BudaiWiki"

HAL says "BudaiWiki?"


5, There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.


Gnu said "Maybe."

HAL says "Yes"


6, An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.


Gnu said "Many Christians don't do this. Old Church Guy, MagicMiles, Mooby..."

HAL says "Many Christians do this - olivianus, Dawiyhd, Maggie the Opinionated ..."


7, The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background.


Gnu said "Doesn't apply, obviously."

HAL says "I don't accept this part of the definition as I've said before, socially accepted delusional behavior is still delusional"


8, The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.


Gnu said "I know many moderate Christians in the UK who are not over-invested."

HAL says "Yes applies to many Christians"


9, The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.

Gnu said "Obviously doesn't apply to mainstream Christians. Their large numbers establish their behavior as normal.

HAL says "I reject that the large numbers make it "normal". Rather, it's a large number of people acting abnormally"


10, Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.


Gnu said "I don't see how a life-long Christian's beliefs could qualify as 'uncharacteristic' or 'alien'.

HAL says "It might not be uncharacteristic but it definitely is alien"


Online bertatberts

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #141 on: August 10, 2012, 03:13:47 PM »
Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.
Thanks.
Note how it says considered. Firstly by whom...
By anyone.
Doesn't follow. who gave the theist a free pass when it comes to delusion.
Quote from: Gnu Ordure
If one of my patients tells me that they pray to God every evening, I would categorize that as normal Christian behaviour; if they tell me that they heard God telling them to kill their children, I would recognize that as abnormal Christian thinking (and take appropriate action to protect the children).
That is only because you give the theist a free pass. You're basically going on the premise if the belief doesn't cause any harm, then let it go, but we know by the past it is far from harmless.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
Quote
and secondly it goes again the commonly agreed dictionary definition of delusion,
That's because it a definition of a specific diagnostic category, it's not defining delusion itself.
Then they should not put it in the dictionaries. Give me a definition of delusion which is not your personal opinion. or a dictionary defined definition. You're just playing a semantics game.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
Quote
Also you may want to look up "Delusional Disorder", these people are considered normal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder The following can indicate a delusion:

<snip>

The majority above fit with the theist, so it is clear.
This a definition of a specific trait. You may disagree with it, but there it is. And as it stands, the average theist doesn't qualify:
Why not! Read on. You've not given me reasons why it doesn't apply, you've just said it doesn't apply.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
1, The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force. Most Christians don't do this.
This is not true! Christians profess their beliefs to be true (without a shadow of a doubt) with this kind assurance, they are persistent and forceful. especially when it pertains to how they raise their children.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
2, That idea appears to exert an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent. Changes in a new Christian's life are explicable.
Doesn't that depend on the christian denomination/cult. Define christian.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
3, Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it. Most Christians aren't secretive.
Most christians are agnostic though they profess a gnostic belief. but when you breakdown there arguments they often come back, "I have faith god exist" which is an agnostic claim, because they are no longer professing they know god exists.
which is being secretive even if it is indirect.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
4, The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief. BudaiWiki
Picking out one religion, to what is stated as a symptom of delusional disorder, doesn't answer the claim made, don't for instance christians claim they are being oppressed, when it is actual they that are oppressing others.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
5, There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly. Maybe.
Well, most American christian are literalists. accepting the whole bible as fact. and muslims are too, in regard to the faith. That is unquestioning belief.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
6, An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. Many Christians don't do this. Old Church Guy, MagicMiles, Mooby...
Some maybe, however questioning someones belief is often met with complete and utter hostility, go to any christian site and see how much hostility you receive, simply for being a non-believer.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
7, The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural and religious background. Doesn't apply, obviously.
Agreed, I did state most would fit with the theist.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
8, The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche. I know many moderate Christians in the UK who are not over-invested.
But what of other countries, I'm sure the USA is, and Africa too, to name just a few.
Theist surround themselves with the faith, so to say they are not emotionally invested is a fallacy. The very fact they believe says they are emotionally invested.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
9, The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs. Obviously doesn't apply to mainstream Christians. Their large numbers establish their behaviour as normal.
But who decided they could have this free pass. it is a case of the emperors new clothes. If the majority of the world believed in fairies then it would be a normal belief, but would that make it any less a delusion.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
10, Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien. I don't see how a life-long Christian's beliefs could qualify as 'uncharacteristic' or 'alien'.
Again I did state that most fit the theist.

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
So no, the majority of those don't fit normal theists.
Ah but they do look again.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #142 on: August 10, 2012, 07:19:58 PM »
Oh this looks fun, can I try?
Knock yourself out.

All I've been trying to do is explain why psychotherapists and doctors such as Mooby and myself don't classify religious people as mentally ill.

The fact is, in America 78% of the population are Christian. Therefore it is normal, in America, to be Christian.

As I said before, sanity is defined by society, not by psychiatrists. It's a numbers game.

If atheism continues to grow and religion declines, at some point psychiatrists will define all religious beliefs as delusional; but they can't do it now. Not with the current numbers.

Offline HAL

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #143 on: August 10, 2012, 07:46:21 PM »
Man Gnu, I appreciate your input, I really do, but I just have all kinds of questions about this.

The fact is, in America 78% of the population are Christian. Therefore it is normal, in America, to be Christian.

As I said before, sanity is defined by society, not by psychiatrists. It's a numbers game.

Why is it a numbers game? Is truth a numbers game? Is delusion a numbers game? You claim sanity is defined by society, so if the society is 78% Christian, and that's "normal" then are atheists in this society abnormal? What percentage is the cutoff for being abnormal?

Why cant' you just say it's a large group of abnormal people? Why does a large group make it normal?

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If atheism continues to grow and religion declines, at some point psychiatrists will define all religious beliefs as delusional; but they can't do it now. Not with the current numbers.

Why not? Why can't they? Are the religious nutters in charge of psychiatrists? Who came up with that rule? What exactly is the cutoff number?

You act like it's akin to morality in a society. I agree the morals of the society are dictated by the majority, but we're talking here about irrational thinking that we all (all of us critical thinkers) agree is flawed. I just do not understand why the religious get off the hook on this just because they are in the majority. It's just completely outside my sphere of comprehension. I reject that reasoning and I think your profession is wrong in this decision.

Arrrrg! This really pisses me off!

Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis
« Reply #144 on: August 10, 2012, 07:57:37 PM »

Arrrrg! This really pisses me off!

Why? If the American Psychiatry Association ( or whatever there is ) came out and declared that faith/belief in God was irrational and a symptom of delusion, what difference does that make to you? Is it that you think it will reduce or eliminate the persecution I hear about against atheists?
Go on up you baldhead.