A Christian goes to see a Psychiatrist for a Diagnosis

[kelbeth]

So HAL, let me just make sure I understand your position:
1. You start a thread about what psychiatrists consider to be delusion.
2. You receive a few answers, including the DSM IV definition and a quote from a psych textbook.
3. You reject psychiatrists' definition of delusions because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Is that a fair assessment?

Yes, except it's not my agenda that it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit what a rational thinker knows is delusion. Ask Azdgari, bertaberts, Dawkins, lot's of other members here, Marshall Brain, et. al. I'm in very good company thank you. My stand is that the DSM definition is flawed. I don't care what 10,000 doctors think about it, it's wrong. If you don't like that, then tough shit.

I registered specifically to comment on this post.  The DSM is always being revised, added to, and taken from based on what society considers normal behavior.  That isn't objective medicine.  If the writers of the DSM were thinking objectively, there would be no need to remove disorders.  Can you imagine the public outcry if religious delusions were classified as a mental illness?  A broken arm is a broken arm no matter what culture or country you're in.  Homosexuality was one classified as a mental disorder until pressure to have it removed prevailed.  In the next revision, I believe both histrionic personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder are being removed.  You're right that the writers of the DSM are wrong in not considering religious delusions delusions.  A delusion by any other name is still a delusion. 

[HAL]

You're right that the writers of the DSM are wrong in not considering religious delusions delusions.  A delusion by any other name is still a delusion.

Well, thank you for joining and thank you for that! 

[fishjie]

theres different levels of delusion

your run of the mill theist is hardly mentally ill

[Mooby]

You're right that the writers of the DSM are wrong in not considering religious delusions delusions.  A delusion by any other name is still a delusion.

Religious delusions are delusions.  However, a religious belief is not a religious delusion.  "Religious delusion" is an actual term that describes an actual condition, yet the views of HAL and co. are not it.  It's not a matter of opinion; they're just using the term incorrectly.

[HAL]

Mooby,

I'm repeating this because you didn't reply to it.

Were the people in this religious group delusional?

If they were, why?

If not, why not?

Heaven's Gate (religious group)

Heaven's Gate was an American UFO religion based in San Diego, California, founded and led by Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997) and Bonnie Nettles (1928–1985).[1] On March 26, 1997, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the group who had committed suicide[2] in order to reach an alien space craft which they believed was following the Comet Hale-Bopp, which was at its brightest.[3]

Heaven's Gate members believed that the planet Earth was about to be recycled (wiped clean, renewed, refurbished and rejuvenated), and that the only chance to survive was to leave it immediately. While the group was formally against suicide, they defined "suicide" in their own context to mean "to turn against the Next Level when it is being offered,"[9] and believed that their "human" bodies were only vessels meant to help them on their journey. In conversation, when referring to a person or a person's body, they routinely used the word "vehicle"; when shown a picture of his son in an interview, Rio DiAngelo commented, "Look, there's the little vehicle."

The group believed in several paths for a person to leave the Earth and survive before the "recycling," one of which was hating this world strongly enough: "It is also possible that part of our test of faith is our hating this world, even our flesh body, to the extent to be willing to leave it without any proof of the Next Level's existence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28religious_group%29

[Mooby]

Were the people in this religious group delusional?

I don't know.  I don't have enough information to determine that.  If I sat down with some of them and took a thorough history, I would probably have a better idea.

[HAL]

I don't know.  I don't have enough information to determine that.  If I sat down with some of them and took a thorough history, I would probably have a better idea.

I think you are dodging me.

[jdawg70]

You're right that the writers of the DSM are wrong in not considering religious delusions delusions.  A delusion by any other name is still a delusion.

Religious delusions are delusions.  However, a religious belief is not a religious delusion.  "Religious delusion" is an actual term that describes an actual condition, yet the views of HAL and co. are not it.  It's not a matter of opinion; they're just using the term incorrectly.

I think I need a definition of 'religious delusion'.

[jdawg70]

I don't know.  I don't have enough information to determine that.  If I sat down with some of them and took a thorough history, I would probably have a better idea.

I think you are dodging me.

I don't think that's a dodge.  It's consistent with his position that there is and should be a difference between the strict definition of 'delusion' and 'clinical delusion', and he's assuming that you're talking about a clinical delusion.

Sorry if I'm putting words into your <forum text box> Mooby.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mooby]

I think you are dodging me.

I gave you a huge post of what it takes to get enough information to properly label someone as delusional, and you want me to pass judgement over 3 paragraphs from Wikipedia?

I think I need a definition of 'religious delusion'.

Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.

[HAL]

I gave you a huge post of what it takes to get enough information to properly label someone as delusional, and you want me to pass judgement over 3 paragraphs from Wikipedia?

That excuse isn't going to fly on this type of forum.

This isn't a forum for experts, it's a layman's forum. If we all had to post only expert opinions we'd barely have anyone here. Almost all the posts and opinions are non-expert and it's accepted procedure.

So yes, for this type of forum you are dodging Mooby.

In my opinion the members of the Heaven's Gate group were delusional.

What's your opinion of the Heaven's Gate religious group? Do you think they were delusional or not?

[Mooby]

That excuse isn't going to fly on this type of forum.

"I don't know" is not an excuse.

[HAL]

"I don't know" is not an excuse.

I don't know a lot of things and neither do you so what's everybody conversing about here?

Our opinions.

Ask me any question at all.

All I have to say if want to avoid it is "Oh I don't know I'm not an expert."

or

"Oh I don't know I don't have enough information"

That's a substitute for dodging on a layman's forum for a lot of the things we discuss.

So yes you are in fact dodging by doing what you are doing on a layman's forum. I want your opinion Mooby - not a medical diagnosis, which is not appropriate for a layman's forum.

If you stuck to that modus operandi you wouldn't be able to respond to anyone's questions about anything more substantial than what flavor of ice cream you enjoyed.

If you are going to seriously tell us that you cannot state your opinion on whether the Heaven's Gate group was delusional or not you are dodging.

[jdawg70]

Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.

Thanks.

[HAL]

Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.

This part of the definition is flawed -

Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.

There is no reasonable reason to have it in there. Delusions are not normal in any setting.

[magicmiles]

 Delusions are not normal in any setting.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[HAL]

 Delusions are not normal in any setting.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Note: This is an example of what I mean by Mooby's tactics of dodging, and how it stops discussion on a layman's forum.

No I can't magicmiles, I am not an expert and would have to initiate a study to clarify it further for you.

end of example.

[magicmiles]

Right. So if you could clarify what you mean by 'delusions are not normal in any setting' that would be great.

[magicmiles]

Allow me to explain why I want this statement clarified.

It seems to me that to say something isn't 'normal' can mean one of two things:

* It isn't common

* It simply shouldn't happen


And I don't see how either of these can be said of delusion.

[HAL]

Right. So if you could clarify what you mean by 'delusions are not normal in any setting' that would be great.

Sure, be happy to give you my layman's opinion (like we all do on all the subjects all the time).

Delusional thinking is an abnormal thought process, in that it leads one to believe in unproven or irrational beliefs.

Now back to you ...

Do you think delusional thinking should be considered normal?

If so, how would you classify a person that doesn't have delusions? Abnormal?

[12 Monkeys]

I think you are dodging me.

I gave you a huge post of what it takes to get enough information to properly label someone as delusional, and you want me to pass judgement over 3 paragraphs from Wikipedia?

I think I need a definition of 'religious delusion'.

Religious delusion: Any delusion with a religious or spiritual content. These may be combined with other delusions, such as grandiose delusions (the belief that the affected person was chosen by God, for example), delusions of control, or delusions of guilt. Beliefs that would be considered normal for an individual's religious or cultural background are not delusions.

Hitler was a Christians doing what he thought God wanted him to do,before you dismiss this sentence think. The English,Spanish and various other "Christian" nations travelled around the world in the name of their God Conquering and killing the heathens and declaring their "churches" the religion of the conquered lands. We now see Mexico,Canada,Usa,Austrailia,Philiphines....and other areas "Conquered" be "Christians" as their early form of religion directly after the "conquerers" took over.

 Thankfully the "conquered" peoples are starting in small numbers to abandon Christianity,why because it does not feed or cloth them. It only delivers a promise,nothing else.

 Now back to Hitler how was he delusional where the early "Christians" were revelled as heroes of new lands they were stealing and building over the bodies of their dead heathens they conquered?.......more CLEAR how was Hitler a delusional lunatic where Columbus and others were heroes? same result a lot of DEAD bodies

[magicmiles]

Right. So if you could clarify what you mean by 'delusions are not normal in any setting' that would be great.

Sure, be happy to give you my layman's opinion (like we all do on all the subjects all the time).

Delusional thinking is an abnormal thought process, in that it leads one to believe in unproven or irrational beliefs.

Now back to you ...

Do you think delusional thinking should be considered normal?

If so, how would you classify a person that doesn't have delusions? Abnormal?

Specifically, I would like to know what you mean by 'normal' and 'abnormal'. Do you agree with the two options I posted earlier for what 'normal' means?

I think delusional thinking is normal, by both definitions I give to the word: it is common, and it is to be expected.

[HAL]

This site is aggravating me right now because it's slow.

Specifically, I would like to know what you mean by 'normal' and 'abnormal'. Do you agree with the two options I posted earlier for what 'normal' means?

Simply go to the definition again is all I need to do -

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

Such a belief is not normal. It's abnormal.

I think delusional thinking is normal, by both definitions I give to the word: it is common, and it is to be expected.

Is non-delusional thinking abnormal?

[magicmiles]

This site is aggravating me right now because it's slow.

Specifically, I would like to know what you mean by 'normal' and 'abnormal'. Do you agree with the two options I posted earlier for what 'normal' means?

Simply go to the definition again is all I need to do -

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

Such a belief is not normal. It's abnormal.

I think delusional thinking is normal, by both definitions I give to the word: it is common, and it is to be expected.

Is non-delusional thinking abnormal?

Well, delusional thinking is common. You see it all the time. So it is 'normal' in that sense of the word.

And delusional thinking is to be expected. No one person perceives the world exactly the say way, we all have certain influences and prejudices, different levels of education etc. It makes sense that some people will consider things to be true despite evidence to the contrary. And if it's to be expected, it is normal.

So I disagree with you that delusion is abnormal.

I would consider a snake flying through the air to be abnormal. It's uncommon and you wouldn't expect to see it. Same with my toothbrush dancing in the glass.

Maybe you have a different idea of what 'normal' means?

[HAL]

So I disagree with you that delusion is abnormal.

OK. Let the readers decide for themselves.

I would consider a snake flying through the air to be abnormal. It's uncommon and you wouldn't expect to see it. Same with my toothbrush dancing in the glass.

But is that delusional?

Maybe you have a different idea of what 'normal' means?

You didn't answer my question though. That isn't fair is it?

Is non-delusional thinking abnormal?

[12 Monkeys]

Would you say that a rational person would only accept something concrete before they decide if it is real? Can a rational person view something on probabilities? Bigfoot would be a good example,most of society may think it possible that an ape-like creature lives in North America and China(yeti)....is there sufficient evidence,not really,some evidence,sure a probability of course. Does the probability make it real,NO

[magicmiles]

I would consider a snake flying through the air to be abnormal. It's uncommon and you wouldn't expect to see it. Same with my toothbrush dancing in the glass.

But is that delusional?

The events actually occurring would be about as abnormal as you could get. If someone believed those events would occur then I think it would be delusional. But that doesn't make delusion itself abnormal, because the delusions do occur often, and that is to be expected.

You didn't answer my question though. That isn't fair is it?

Is non-delusional thinking abnormal?

No, non-delusional thinking is not abnormal. Neither is delusional thinking. Although I would say that non-delusional thinking is more normal than delusional thinking.

[HAL]

The events actually occurring would be about as abnormal as you could get. If someone believed those events would occur then I think it would be delusional. But that doesn't make delusion itself abnormal, because the delusions do occur often, and that is to be expected.

Delusions occur often? I wasn't aware of that. As far as I can remember I've never had a delusion after the age where I was told Santa wasn't real. How do you explain that?

No, non-delusional thinking is not abnormal. Neither is delusional thinking. Although I would say that non-delusional thinking is more normal than delusional thinking.

I didn't expect you to say non-delusional thinking was "more normal" than delusional thinking. Heck, I'll take that as a win and quit while I'm ahead.

[magicmiles]

The events actually occurring would be about as abnormal as you could get. If someone believed those events would occur then I think it would be delusional. But that doesn't make delusion itself abnormal, because the delusions do occur often, and that is to be expected.

Delusions occur often? I wasn't aware of that. As far as I can remember I've never had a delusion after the age where I was told Santa wasn't real. How do you explain that?

I'm not talking about whether or not they are normal on a case by case basis. I am sayng that there are enough cases of delusion to consider it normal. It happens a lot.

I didn't expect you to say non-delusional thinking was "more normal" than delusional thinking. Heck, I'll take that as a win and quit while I'm ahead.

I wasn't competing. Just giving an opinion. And I still don't actually know what you have in mind when you say 'normal'. Do you mean 'occurring often'? Does something have to occur a certain minimum number of times before you consider it normal? I imagine we all would have a different idea of how frequently something needs to occur before it could be considered normal.

Or do you mean normal as in "it can reasonably be expected to occur"? Do you think delusion can be reasonably expected? I sure do.