Author Topic: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not  (Read 2088 times)

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Offline Quesi

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We have had a lot of discussions here about sin and morality and ethical behavior and whatnot.  I know that we atheists heathens may not really understand morality.  But here is a mega church Christian pastor who does commit a little sin now and then.

However, the god of Abraham still likes him better than us.

“Jack Schaap had left his cell phone on the pulpit and a deacon had seen it on the pulpit and had picked it up to bring it back to him,” Trisha Kee, who maintains a Facebook group for ex-congregants, told the station. “From what we understand, the deacon then saw a text come through from a teenage girl in the church, and it was a picture of Jack Schaap and this girl making out.”

Eddie Wilson, director of public relations for the church, told the Chicago Sun-Times that adultery is grounds for dismissal in the church's bylaws. He told the newspaper that Schaap and his wife are "trying to reconcile their marriage," and said that the church will now "begin the process of calling a new pastor."

Schaap and his wife Cindy have been married for more than 30 years and have two children. Schaap has made a career writing advice books about dating.

The First Baptist Church of Hammond faced a similar scandal in 1991 when a deacon was convicted of molesting a 7-year-old girl in her Sunday school class, according to the Times.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/01/jack-schaap-pastor-fired-_n_1728302.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D187119

So these people who say "we are all sinners" kind of try my patience.  I don't "sin" like many Christians seem to. 

How about the rest of you heathens? 

Online Nam

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Another one bites the...well, not dust.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Nick

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Hypocrites all of them.  I keep saying I don't think many really believe in a God at all.  If they did they would not continue to be caught in these things.  So has the "I seek forgiveness" shit started yet?  Power and money...that is what it is all about.  And they have the nerve to protest gay marriage and marrying blacks in certain churches.  Every time  see a preacher now I look at them with disgust.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online Nam

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To say all preachers, or priests, or imply it are like these people, that's going a bit too far. They may "preach" things that we normally, or consciously disagree with but, at the end of the day most of them are quite normal and law abiding. As stated: we may not agree with their viewpoints but they are not all like this guy, or the rest.

I mean I could list horrible acts, or things negatively said by some atheists but they do not represent all atheists.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Quesi

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You know Nick, I do think Nam has a point.  I have quoted a pastor friend of mine on this forum a number of times because I really like him, and I think his lifestyle and his values stand in stark contrast to these sleezes.  He raises funds for afterschool programs for low income families, performs gay/lesbian weddings, has committed a large percentage of his life to working with refugees.  Raised a bunch of great kids who are now adults and doing good work in their communities  I really like the guy. 

So not ALL of them. 

But a surprisingly shocking percentage. 

Offline Quesi

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I think I am still kind of bruised by MM's explanation earlier today (or yesterday, depending on your timezone) to my question about why, if there is a god, he had not made himself apparent to me.

And the explanation was that sin separates us from god. 

Fuck that.

I strive to live an extraordinarily moral life.  I don't lie.  I don't steal.  I seriously think about the impact that my actions will have on others.  I try to allow empathy to drive my actions, and I strive to treat everyone with respect, kindness and generosity.  I've never harmed another human being.  Or another living being, except for an occasional cockroach and sometimes I eat seafood.  I've worked my entire life fighting against poverty, and economic and social marginalization, and illiteracy.  I've supported and advocated for individuals who needed safety or justice, and I've worked for policies that promoted safety and justice for everyone. 

And this slimebag stood on a pulpit and told everyone else that they were sinners while his wife was raising his kids and he was banging the kids in his congregation? 

And the god of Abraham reached out and spoke to him, but MY SIN is keeping that same god from making an effort to reach out to me? 

And this is a god, who can't get close to me because of all of my sins, (but can get close to this sleeze) is worthy of my worship? 


Online Nam

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Christians, or Jews, are the biggest "sinners" in comparison to what they believe to be "sins". So, if anyone, by such implication, is "far from god": they are.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline magicmiles

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What this preacher did is awful, and it's easy to imagine God being angry about it.

Its not so easy to imagine God being angry about the things we consider minor transgressions, and of course I understand the indignation many feel at the idea they are somehow 'not good enough for God'.

I think ultimately, even for those who believe God is real, it is very hard to believe that God simply cannot live with sin. Sin, ultimately, is breaking God's commands. Any of them. The very idea pisses us off - because we are born sinful. We can't avoid it. It's a curse.

We understand the concept of 'wrongdoing requires punsishment', and we are outraged at the thought of people going unpunished and 'justice' not being done.

But  - we want to be the ones who decide what justice is. We want to be the ones who determine what does and doesn't fly, what should and shouldn't be punsished. But we can't be. God says he is the one and only, and God says he will punish those who break his commands.

Wanting to be the ones who determine what is and isn't allowed, whether we do this on an individual level or as part of a society, is an offence against God, because it removes God from His rightful place and replaces Him with us - His creation, His children. Its been a rebellion against Him from the very first.

Let me enlighten you with a list of my own personal offences against God in, say, the last week:

* Pride and conceit. In just about everything I do I hope that i come out of it looking good

* Laziness. I don't work as hard as I should at any aspect of my life, be it work, being a parent, being a husband, being a friend, helping those in need.

* Theft. When I don't work hard I rob my employer of what should be their time.

* Dishonesty. Half -truths, not telling the whole story, putting a better shine on things that what is reality.

* Lust. Allowing my mind to form ideas of how the hot girl I saw would look nice naked.

* Anger and intolerance. At my kids, my colleagues, at the person who cut me off in traffic

* Greed. Always wanting more, wanting to be more comfortable

I could go on. And on, and on, and on.

I know you all could, too. And I know that you think most of that stuff is normal, natural, a result of being human. And yes, it is a result of being human, but it isn't good, and God hates it.

It all comes down to "me", and not "God".

We might find it easy to rank our mis-deeds, and I do it also, but God sees our hearts. He sees the blackness which dwells there in our attitudes and thoughts.

This preacher has sinned, many have, he has caused terrible hurt. We have all caused terrible hurt to others.

God has to deal with our sin because of who He is.  He will judge us. And we will come up short, every person who ever lived.

But He also loves us. We're His creation, His children. And so He found a way to satisfy His extreme love for us AND His need for justice. He did it in Jesus.

Jesus came to earth and died on a cross and He did it to satisfy God's wrath. Jesus willingly took upon Himself the punishment from God, being separated from God, and He was the only one who could do it becuae he was the only one who could ever live on this earth without sinning

When God looks at me on judgement day, He will see that I know this, and that I have confessed to Him that I needed Jesus. He will see all my mis-deeds but He doesn't need to punish them because Jesus took that punishment for me.

He's taken that punsishment for all who will confess their sin and ask Jesus to save them from God's perfect judgement. And God promises that if we do that, if we humble ourselves and confess that need, He will send the Holy Spirit to guide us in living a life pleasing to Him. It doesn't mean we don't sin, but it certain;y means we fight against it.

I don't know this preachers heart. I don't know if he fights against lust. I only know my heart. And you can only know yours.

You...and God. You won't fool God. God knows whether you have have felt the weight of your sins. He knows whether you shrugged and carried on, telling yourself that you are boss.

Quesi, you soumd like a more moral person than me in many ways. But you're telling God to get fucked with His demand that His will be done, not yours. You want to belive that close enough is good enough. It isn't.

A Christian is someone who knows they're a sinner but is saved from it by God's grace. They will fail, they will get it wrong, but a Christian will fight against doing it next time. And they'll fail. But they'll fight again.

And Jesus has promised that those failures won't be held against you, if you allow Him to do that.

It's God's gift, but you need to accept it. You can do that.

MM


The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Kimberly

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Quesi,

I think when you know you can ask for forgiveness and be given eternity with god it's a lot easier to sin. Even sleeping with children is forgivable. Why not when you are given a get out of jail free card by god? I think it's also easier to believe in god when you know you can use the religion to justify and or excuse your sins.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

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What this preacher did is awful, and it's easy to imagine God being angry about it.

In what sense?

Quote
Its not so easy to imagine God being angry about the things we consider minor transgressions, and of course I understand the indignation many feel at the idea they are somehow 'not good enough for God'.

What minor trangressions?

Quote
I think ultimately, even for those who believe God is real, it is very hard to believe that God simply cannot live with sin. Sin, ultimately, is breaking God's commands. Any of them. The very idea pisses us off - because we are born sinful. We can't avoid it. It's a curse.

Didn't you just say "god" can forgive the "little trangressions". Now, you're saying it doesn't? Which is it?

Quote
We understand the concept of 'wrongdoing requires punsishment', and we are outraged at the thought of people going unpunished and 'justice' not being done.

"We"? Who is "we"?

Quote
But  - we want to be the ones who decide what justice is. We want to be the ones who determine what does and doesn't fly, what should and shouldn't be punsished. But we can't be. God says he is the one and only, and God says he will punish those who break his commands.

Actually people who write scripture(s) says that's what their god says. There's a difference.

Quote
Wanting to be the ones who determine what is and isn't allowed, whether we do this on an individual level or as part of a society, is an offence against God, because it removes God from His rightful place and replaces Him with us - His creation, His children. Its been a rebellion against Him from the very first.

If you say so.

Quote
Let me enlighten you with a list of my own personal offences against God in, say, the last week:

* Pride and conceit. In just about everything I do I hope that i come out of it looking good

* Laziness. I don't work as hard as I should at any aspect of my life, be it work, being a parent, being a husband, being a friend, helping those in need.

* Theft. When I don't work hard I rob my employer of what should be their time.

* Dishonesty. Half -truths, not telling the whole story, putting a better shine on things that what is reality.

* Lust. Allowing my mind to form ideas of how the hot girl I saw would look nice naked.

* Anger and intolerance. At my kids, my colleagues, at the person who cut me off in traffic

* Greed. Always wanting more, wanting to be more comfortable

I could go on. And on, and on, and on.

Please do. It sounds like you're a "sinner" all around. Seems you enjoy it, going by what you describe.

Quote
I know you all could, too. And I know that you think most of that stuff is normal, natural, a result of being human. And yes, it is a result of being human, but it isn't good, and God hates it.

But your god is all those things itself.

1. Jealous at a constant.
2. Wrathful endlessly.
3. A murderer.
4. Raping girls who are virgins.
5. Egotistical.
6. Acts like a whiney baby when it doesn't get its way
7. Promotes slavery.
8. Sexist.
9. In some instances: racist.
10. Enjoys killing babies

All the things you worship.

Quote
It all comes down to "me", and not "God".

We might find it easy to rank our mis-deeds, and I do it also, but God sees our hearts. He sees the blackness which dwells there in our attitudes and thoughts.

This preacher has sinned, many have, he has caused terrible hurt. We have all caused terrible hurt to others.

God has to deal with our sin because of who He is.  He will judge us. And we will come up short, every person who ever lived.

Evidence?

Quote
But He also loves us. We're His creation, His children. And so He found a way to satisfy His extreme love for us AND His need for justice. He did it in Jesus.

He raped Jesus' mother to show how much "he" loves us?

Quote
Jesus came to earth and died on a cross and He did it to satisfy God's wrath. Jesus willingly took upon Himself the punishment from God, being separated from God, and He was the only one who could do it becuae he was the only one who could ever live on this earth without sinning

So you, and those like you say. Doesn't mean a thing to me.

Quote
When God looks at me on judgement day, He will see that I know this, and that I have confessed to Him that I needed Jesus. He will see all my mis-deeds but He doesn't need to punish them because Jesus took that punishment for me.

Yes. Let's forget all your bad deeds, they are forgiven 'cause you believe in Jesus.

Nonsense.

Quote
He's taken that punsishment for all who will confess their sin and ask Jesus to save them from God's perfect judgement. And God promises that if we do that, if we humble ourselves and confess that need, He will send the Holy Spirit to guide us in living a life pleasing to Him. It doesn't mean we don't sin, but it certain;y means we fight against it.

I don't know this preachers heart. I don't know if he fights against lust. I only know my heart. And you can only know yours.

You...and God. You won't fool God. God knows whether you have have felt the weight of your sins. He knows whether you shrugged and carried on, telling yourself that you are boss.

Quesi, you soumd like a more moral person than me in many ways. But you're telling God to get fucked with His demand that His will be done, not yours. You want to belive that close enough is good enough. It isn't.

A Christian is someone who knows they're a sinner but is saved from it by God's grace. They will fail, they will get it wrong, but a Christian will fight against doing it next time. And they'll fail. But they'll fight again.

And Jesus has promised that those failures won't be held against you, if you allow Him to do that.

It's God's gift, but you need to accept it. You can do that.

MM

All that is preaching. Not allowed here.

-Nam
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:50:39 PM by Nam »
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Quesi

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 10:18:54 PM »
MM - not all "sins" are equal.  A moment of pride or envy is not equal to raping a child.  And if your god thinks that they are, he is wrong.

I don't see "sin" as some innate part of me.  I don't see it integrated into my being.  I don't see it integrated into the being of most people I know. 

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.  Some are more short tempered than others.  Some can't seem to have a credit card in their wallets without spending money on crap they don't need and can't afford.  Some don't have the same levels of energy or productivity or skills or motivation, and might be viewed by others as being lazy.  Some have obsessive behaviors, or addictive personalities, which cause them and their loved ones a lot of pain.   

I'm assuming that you would look at each of those qualities and see sin. I look and see the complexity of humanity.   Not the best side of humanity.  Just a reality.  Yeah, we are flawed.

Then there are people who commit evil.[1]  I think sometimes people who would be good people otherwise, find themselves committing acts of evil.  Like the villagers who recently stoned an adulterous couple to death.  I imagine it happening in a frenzied mob, and people who would not, under other circumstances, commit murder, were guilty of evil.  Many abused children become adults who abuse children, and the cycle of evil continues.  Some people who are just angry at all of the pain that they have felt in life, find comfort in causing pain in others. 

I try and see the humanity in those people.  I try, and sometimes fail.  Often fail.

But there is no question in my mind that the acts committed by these people are not equivalent to vanity or pettiness or impulsive decision making.

Your god has the big 10.  And there is no way you are ever going to convince me that working on Sunday or coveting my neighbor's goat are the worst evils that human beings can commit.

I've always assumed the abominations are the second tier of sin.  And a motley bunch of transgressions they are.  Here is a piece from a nice article on abominations:

Of the sixty-five occurrences of the word in the Old Testament, five refer to something as being an abomination to another people. Thirteen of the things labeled "abominations" are dietary restrictions, the observation of which would bar a person from consuming such things as clam chowder, shrimp and, one of my favorites, the non-existent four-legged insect, which certainly refers to something besides what we call "insects". Seventeen refer to improper sacrifice, although I am hard pressed to think of a single Christian (or Jewish, for that matter) congregation that slaughters animals on their altars these days. Outright adultery and adultery cause by divorce, which is prohibited by the Bible even though it is a widespread practice today, account for three of the verses. In addition to Jesus's comment in Luke, the love of money is decried as an abomination in two Old Testament passages. Four related verses cite dishonest trading practices as abominations. Twelve other verses list behaviors ranging from murder to women wearing "anything that pertains to a man" (for example, pants). Eight passages, including the one from Revelation, are not clear about what they mean by "abomination."
  http://www.dragonlordsnet.com/abomination.htm

So this is the serious stuff????  This are the primary concerns of your god?

If this is "His will,"  if this is what he "demands" in terms of morality, then yeah.  Even if he were to exist, I could not respect him. 

And then there is all the stuff on Nam's list.  Jealousy.  Murder. (Genocide, actually).  Rape.  Slavery.  This is your god whose moral systems are perfect and who is without sin? 

Really?   
 1. Yeah, yeah.  I know that "evil" is subjective and not a concept that most "rational" people embrace

Offline magicmiles

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 11:02:33 PM »
Not surprisingly, we're at an impasse. I'm a Christian. This is an atheist website.

I like a lot of you, a lot. But I won't water down what I believe to be the truth. I believe that when you face God on judgement day you will be forever removed from His presence. I believe that will indeed be eternal Hell. I don't like to say it, i don't like to think about it. But I won't pretend that isn't what the bible teaches, and the bible is the word of God, I am convinced of it. I can't make you believe it and I won't try anymore.

Please...don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".

If only I had the balls to say that more often to the people I know and love in real life, like my brother, sister, best friend at work.

I just ask that you don't ignore any tugging at your heart you might feel. Don't brush it off as wishful thinking. Seek God.

Your friend,

Nathan


 
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Astreja

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 11:21:25 PM »
Please...don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".

Why not?  It'd be entertaining to hear Jesus lie.

Quote
I just ask that you don't ignore any tugging at your heart you might feel. Don't brush it off as wishful thinking. Seek God.

Nathan, the only tugging I feel at this moment is to deliberately and publicly commit the unforgivable sin.

I hereby assert that I see absolutely no functional difference between the alleged "Holy Spirit" and "Satan."  A sock puppet is a sock puppet is a sock puppet.  If the god of the Bible is allowing its supernatural minions to implant good or bad thoughts or emotions in the minds of mortals, and is basing its final judgment of those mortals on their now-contaminated thoughts and emotions, "free will" is no more than a fleeting amusement in the toolbox of a cosmic bully.
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Offline kin hell

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 04:17:52 AM »
good on ya nathan

express those feelings bloke,  go on you believer get it out

have a fucking glorious gurgling purge in the name of good god almighty jesus h christ

but just understand that at least I can feel secure in the knowledge that the lack of any evidence whatsoever, of any god whatsoever, of any description historical/geographic heritage whatsoever, means that the chances of your ego-centric geographically inherited emotions-based imaginary friend, excluding me from his judgemental presence .......is a joke.

Guess what
I am already excluded from his presence by the fact he just does not exist.

And I'm doing fine.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 04:20:17 AM by kin hell »
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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 05:51:12 AM »
Let me enlighten you with a list of my own personal offences against God in, say, the last week.....I could go on. And on, and on, and on.  I know you all could, too.

Quite.  So what you are saying is that you, and I, live damn near the same lives on this little planet.  That if an impartial observer were to watch us for a week, he would have no idea who of us was Christian, and who was the atheist (barring any obvious wanderings into church).  99% of our time is spent in exactly the same way.....

....I believe that when you face God on judgement day you will be forever removed from His presence. I believe that will indeed be eternal Hell.

...and yipes!  You mean that despite living damn (pun intended) near identical lives, this "god" chappie is going to condemn me to eternal Hell for not being able to believe in him?   Because that's what exactly what is it.  Where I see no evidence, I simply CANNOT believe, it simply isn't possible for me.

So what you are saying to me - to us - is "do something you can't physically manage, or my loving god will condemn you forever".  Which is hardly the kind of message that drives me to want to even try - that's not a "god" that I would want to worship even if I DID believe.

Before I close, let's back up slightly.  You said:
.....don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".

And you also admitted that - despite firmly believing in the existence of Jesus - you live a pretty bloody sinful life, a life no different from mine in the details.

So is it not more likely that when we die, Jesus will say to you "that which you did to the least of my children, you did to me - and you did it knowing every second of every hour of every day that it was something I hated"? - whereas I, having the "excuse" of unbelief, will be ushered in for my reward?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Quesi

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 06:06:41 AM »
Not surprisingly, we're at an impasse. I'm a Christian. This is an atheist website.

I like a lot of you, a lot. But I won't water down what I believe to be the truth. I believe that when you face God on judgement day you will be forever removed from His presence. I believe that will indeed be eternal Hell. I don't like to say it, i don't like to think about it. But I won't pretend that isn't what the bible teaches, and the bible is the word of God, I am convinced of it. I can't make you believe it and I won't try anymore.

Please...don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".

If only I had the balls to say that more often to the people I know and love in real life, like my brother, sister, best friend at work.

I just ask that you don't ignore any tugging at your heart you might feel. Don't brush it off as wishful thinking. Seek God.

Your friend,

Nathan

So MM, you are confirming my suspicions? 

This slime bag gets to spend eternity in your heaven, while me and the rest of us here are going straight to your god's hell? 

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 07:42:18 AM »
MM, here's what I honestly don't get.

Why is the belief in Jesus such a vital piece of the puzzle?

I'll grant that we all have our various human failings. Some people, religious or not, have greater success in overcoming them, and likewise others, religious or not find themselves constantly falling short. So, obviously, simply believing in god doesn't actually confer any immunity from "sin".

Most people will feel regret when they fall short. Most, if they do something to hurt another person, intentionally or not, will apologize for it. Most will readily admit to their failings, and will feel feel some sort of guilt. They will repent and strive (with various degrees of success) to do better in the future.

Then there are those whos imply don't give a damn, and live their lives with a "me, me, me" attitude, not dwelling on how they might morally better themselves or who they may have hurt or marginalized in their self-centeredness. Many of these might, indeed, be self-professed Christians, but that's really a whole separate issue.

The point is that it simply makes no sense to me that if god existed, and if Jesus came to free humanity from the wages of sin, god would ONLY look at the religious beliefs a person held and not at their overall attitude toward themselves, others, and how much effort they put into being the best person they could be. Why would repentance only through Christ be the only sort which counted?

Thus it is, in your belief system, that those who go through their lives with any number of really serious "sins" but believe and repent in Jesus are saved, while those whose failings are all but impossible to notice, but who are, nonetheless, penitent and strive to make amends and improve in the future simply because that seems to them the right thing to do, without believing in or needing a "savior" are damned and will suffer in a literal hell for eternity.

Why would this hypothetical god, who made the rules and provided the means to salvation care WHY people repent, atone and strive to lead better lives if he sees that they do it? How is it that a repentant murderer who accepts Christ is saved while someone who repents for saying a harsh word and apologizes to the person directly without any religious belief involved is damned?

Surely, if Jesus came to save us, and god can see into our hearts, etc, this god could just as easily extend this salvation to anyone who made true efforts to live in such a way which would be pleasing to him whether they did it through faith in him or not. If Jesus' sacrifice was meant to save all of mankind, then why is the vast majority of it still hellbound by this rule of faith?

As I said, this simply does not compute with me, and is a major part of why I find myself unable to believe in god as presented by Christianity.

Offline Quesi

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 08:51:10 AM »

Please...don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".


And another thing.  If he wants to know me, then why don't you tell him to come and say hello to me?  I'm pretty accessible and approachable.  All kinds of people confide in me or come to me for advice or share their opinions with me.  Some simply want attention. 

If he (or god the father or the spirit or whatever) made me the way I am, then He knows how to reach me.  I'm open to any clear lines of communication. 

And PS - I don't condemn people I don't know.  Is that another heavenly value I should embrace?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 09:08:35 AM by Quesi »

Offline screwtape

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2012, 09:07:21 AM »
Not surprisingly, we're at an impasse. ...
<snip>
Please...don't be one of those to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".

If only I had the balls to say that more often to the people I know and love in real life, like my brother, sister, best friend at work.

I just ask that you don't ignore any tugging at your heart you might feel. Don't brush it off as wishful thinking. Seek God.

Your friend,

Nathan

Nathan,

You are not a newbie, so you know by now that this^ is preaching and it is against the rules.  Knock it off.

regards
Links:
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Quesi

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2012, 09:29:18 AM »
Here is a loving American family, with strong values.  Now I admit I don’t know that much about them, but I would bet money that they have heard the word of the Lord Jesus Christ.  And we’ll know a lot about them soon, because they are going to star in their own reality tv show. 


Is this what Jesus is looking for, perhaps, in terms of populating the celestial afterlife with worthy people?   

Offline Kimberly

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2012, 10:27:19 AM »
Quesi, I thought I was disturbed the first time I saw a video about that family... I had not seen this one. I don't want to derail this thread too much but that video is beyond disturbing. I can't even count on one hand the issues I have with that video.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline jtk73

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Re: We are all sinners, but Jack Schaap is still a Christian and you are not
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 03:10:38 PM »
MagicMiles - I sincerely hope that you read my reply and really, really think about my responses.

But  - we want to be the ones who decide what justice is. We want to be the ones who determine what does and doesn't fly, what should and shouldn't be punsished. But we can't be. God says he is the one and only, and God says he will punish those who break his commands.
Isn't punishment typically supposed to teach one to correct a behavior or attitude? How effective is a punishment that never ends? Where the punished is NEVER afforded the chance to correct the behavior or attitude? It seems to me that what the Christian god is doing is not punishment but torture.

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I know you all could, too. And I know that you think most of that stuff is normal, natural, a result of being human. And yes, it is a result of being human, but it isn't good, and God hates it.
What? So god created humans but couldn't leave out the behaviors that he hates? You are depowering your god. You are limiting his power to your imagination. If he is indeed all-powerful, could he not create humans with none of the attributes he hates? If not, then he is not all powerful. If he could not or would not create humans minus less favorable human attributes, how reasonable is it to punish his creations for HIS failings? And please don't bring in free will. Free will doesn't enter into it. An all powerful entity should easily be able to create sentient beings without the ability to conceive of things that offend it without affecting free will. Another question in that same vein, why would an all powerful entity be offended or hate anything? It sounds like a very human attribute to me.

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It all comes down to "me", and not "God".
Why does an all powerful entity require devotion, adoration or even recognition? Sounds like a very human attribute to me.

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God has to deal with our sin because of who He is.
And who is that? The one that created us either the way he intended or the way he was limited to.

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He will judge us. And we will come up short, every person who ever lived.
Then why bother trying? Why would he set the bar too high intentionally?

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But He also loves us. We're His creation, His children. And so He found a way to satisfy His extreme love for us AND His need for justice. He did it in Jesus.
I love my son. I would never punish him for eternity or separate him from me forcefully for any reason. Your god has a strange way of showing his love.

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Jesus came to earth and died on a cross and He did it to satisfy God's wrath.
God's wrath at his own failings in creating beings that don't piss him off?

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Jesus willingly took upon Himself the punishment from God, being separated from God, and He was the only one who could do it becuae he was the only one who could ever live on this earth without sinning
Wait, so god CAN create a being with free will but doesn't have any of the "offensive" attributes? Hmm. I'm confused.

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When God looks at me on judgement day, He will see that I know this, and that I have confessed to Him that I needed Jesus. He will see all my mis-deeds but He doesn't need to punish them because Jesus took that punishment for me.
So god or jesus or whoever actually took the 'punishment' (again how can it be punishment if you are not given the opportunity to change your behavior?) and they don't just offer it freely - one has to acknowledge them for it? That doesn't seem very humble or loving. It seems very needy for an omnipotent entity.

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He's taken that punsishment for all who will confess their sin and ask Jesus to save them from God's perfect judgement. And God promises that if we do that, if we humble ourselves and confess that need, He will send the Holy Spirit to guide us in living a life pleasing to Him. It doesn't mean we don't sin, but it certain;y means we fight against it.
Can you seriously not see how needy and human you god appears?

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You...and God. You won't fool God. God knows whether you have have felt the weight of your sins. He knows whether you shrugged and carried on, telling yourself that you are boss.
Sin is a meaningless word. I am a human. I have human needs, desires and behaviors. If an all powerful (or even super-human) being created me, it created me the way I am and therefore if it decides it is "offended" by any of my needs, desires or behaviors it is the beings own fault and has no reasonable justification for punishing me for the "offenses".

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And Jesus has promised that those failures won't be held against you, if you allow Him to do that.
Those failures would be his or his father's if they were to actually exist.

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It's God's gift, but you need to accept it. You can do that.
It's not a gift if its given with strings attached.

Edit:
I just wanted to add a little clarification. Kind of a thought experiment. A lot of people when they think of the christian god (possibly even jewish people view him this way), they picture him as a man with a white beard wearing robes - maybe glowing or flowing with light?? Most believers profess a all-powerful, omnipotent being - why would you ever imagine it looking human and WHY would you ever give it human behaviors? - wrath, jealousy, hate, etc. We are talking about an OMNIPOTENT entity! This 'being' can theoretically create a billion universes the size of the one we live in with the a mere thought in it's 'mind'. Now imagine that that omnipotent being created life on one single planet in the universe that it created, again with a mere thought! Created plants, animals and sentient, self-aware animals. The animals bodies are filled with intricate nerves, circulatory system, etc (we will pretend for a second that humans are perfectly suited for walking upright and that 'these' human's food and oxygen intake don't use the same tube). Now imagine that this omnipotent being decides that it wants the male humans to cut off a piece of their sex organ. Wait! What the fuck?! The omnipotent being is offended it the humans touch themselves for pleasure? Look at another human with lust? Eat the wrong kind of animals? Wear the wrong kinds of fabric? Remember, this 'being' can create anything with a mere thought - limited only by it's imagination. Seriously, I ask you - do these 'offenses' sound reasonable or do they sound extremely petty and human? If I believed in a god and believed that it was ALL-POWERFUL (sorry about the all caps), I would hold it to a higher standard than I do myself or my fellow humans.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 03:40:51 PM by jtk73 »