Racist bigots strick again

[Anfauglir]

It sort of does sound to me, though, that even if you did start feeling on some level that God might actually be real you'd struggle to take a leap of faith. At what point would you be willing to put aside the things that don't add up to you?

Taking a "leap of faith" is always made out to be such a wonderful thing.  If you rephrase it as "ignore all the evidence you have against, and the lack of evidence you have for that thing, and choose to believe it anyway" and it is very quickly revealed as a ridiculous thing to want to do.

MM, I have the same level of evidence for and against Jesus, as I do for and against Ganesh.  Are you saying it would be a positive thing for me to take a "leap of faith" and start to believe in, and worship, Ganesh?

[jetson]

MM, I have the same level of evidence for and against Jesus, as I do for and against Ganesh.  Are you saying it would be a positive thing for me to take a "leap of faith" and start to believe in, and worship, Ganesh?

Well, Ganesh is not Jesus, silly!   

[Azdgari]

Maybe they don't even try to justify their attitude. The story was pretty thin on details and balanced perspective, after all.

That would make them very different from the rest of us.  I suppose it's easier to dismiss people if you imagine them to be fundamentally different from yourself.

That sounds familiar, given the context...

That sort of thinking falls short anyway. Where would we be without some sort of ambiguity in our lives?

Well, in this case anyway, we'd be able to tell for sure what is or is not a Christian value.  You think that Jesus wants ambiguity to reign supreme regarding the morals by which he wants humans to live?

[Quesi]

I believe your sin separates you from God, same as everybody else. The really difficult thing (for me, anyway) is to imagine something so perfect that by its very nature it cannot live with sin. But that is what I believe God to be.

Really?  Sin?  I mean, sometimes I have selfish urges.  Sometimes I feel anger in my heart for no reason.  As I'm wobbling around with a cane this summer (due to a foot fracture) I get really pissed when I go through a door and some 20 year old is right behind me texting and I find myself holding the door for her because she needs both hands to text.  And then I get mad.  Angry at all kinds of people who have done nothing to merit my wrath.  Angry at the next texting 20 year old, who might be a really wonderful human being.  I try and fight it.  But sometimes it just surges up in me.  And honestly, I'm ashamed. 

I am fortunate to be middle class.  I live in a comfortable home and take wonderful vacations while other people are hungry.  I sometimes throw out food from the refrigerator because I did not plan my meals carefully enough and a yogurt has expired or some veggies have gotten limp and nasty.  Wasting food, and then casually buying more to replace it, is as close to a sin as I can imagine.  I feel guilt.  But I have done it over and over again in my life. 

So yeah.  I sin.  But are my sins so great that they have created such a rift between me and the deity that these sins are preventing me from seeing him?

Are these sins greater than the sins of the 1/3 of humanity that accepts your god?  Or greater than the sins of the huge percentage of humanity that accepts another god? 

I don't think so.  I strive, genuinely strive, to lead a moral life.  An ethical life.  A life in which my actions and my value systems are consistent. 

But no, I simply don't know why some believe this and others don't, apart from believing that it wasn't me who found God, but the other way around.

It sort of does sound to me, though, that even if you did start feeling on some level that God might actually be real you'd struggle to take a leap of faith. At what point would you be willing to put aside the things that don't add up to you? Would you treat it strictly as an accounting ledger, needing more credits than debits?

I don't know if you read this post. 

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23334.msg521534.html#msg521534

Every word there was honest.  Greybeard had said he could not worship a tree.  Even though I don't really worship trees, I could.  I could see myself making that transition.  Or the ocean.  Or any water.  Or food.  I could most definitely worship food.  Not processed food full of artificial colors and flavors and chemical ingredients whose names I can't pronounce.  But food that grew in the earth, and that is about to become part of my body.  It is so wondrous.  I can see myself making that transition. 

Your God?  I cannot imagine any events in my life that would lead me to believe that truth of the stories or the miracles.  But more importantly, I cannot imagine any life transition that would lead me to believe that the moral standards contained in your scriptures are superior to the moral standards that I (sometimes unsuccessfully) impose on myself. 

[screwtape]

I think when you take the bible as a whole it's clear that the OT law was for Jews living before Jesus' death.

Well, that is your particular flavor of SPAG.  Obviously other xians have come to different conclusions now and throughout history.  Since you admit you are not an authority and you could be wrong, that means they - the racists - could be right.  Unfortunately, there are no more spawn of yhwh loitering around to help sort out what's what.

I'm glad for your SPAG because the hebrews were savage barbarians.  Even Australians are more civilized by comparison. 

I certainly fail to see how modern day followers of Christ could take even OT rules on Jews marrying gentiles to oppose two black people marrying, or even a black person marrying a white person.

That is irrelevant.  I am glad you are not a racist, but you should understand your view is not based on scripture.  It is based on the morals that surrounded you in your modern society.  Your attempts to retroactively project anachronous ideas onto your first century godling are... silly and egotistical.  Magicmiles thinks interracial marriage is A-OK, so magicmiles god must agree. 

It is such a coincidence that your god approves of everything you approve and frowns on everything you don't.  You could say it's a match made in heaven.

[Nam]

magicmiles,

Where do you get this from: #55

And the attitude on show here become to be a deliberate one of hate and intolerance of black people

[Azdgari]

Presumably from the "blacks can't marry whites" thing...

[Nam]

Oh, I thought he was implying "we" are intolerant and hateful toward black people. I just woke up, I may have misinterpreted.

-Nam

[Zankuu]

There is so much that you don't know, and so much that you don't like. And yet you believe.

Yes. Equally that could be said for an Atheist.

Since your belief is steeped in faith that's a nice, subtle way of suggesting "It takes faith to be an atheist too", mm. Let's dissolve this notion of faith-based atheism.

What do you think an atheist is placing his/her faith into when it comes to not believing in the existence of a deity?

A theist, such as yourself, has faith that God exists. You must have this faith in God's existence because there is a lack of evidence for his existence. So how can an atheist, who understands this lack of evidence for God, have faith that God doesn't exist when there is in fact a lack of evidence that supports God's existence? I've watched theists here contend that we have faith there is no God because it can't be proven that God doesn't exist. But this isn't having faith at all; it's being reasonable. Which seems more logical to you:

• Person A who says "I am sure that what I hope to be true is true, and I'm certain that what I don't see exists, despite there being no testable evidence for these claims."[1] Or...
• Person B who says "What I hope to be true has no bearing on reality, and it's unreasonable to believe that which there is no evidence for."

So...?

mm, I would hazard a guess that you're a very reasonable person when it comes to the existence of other gods. You and I probably reject countless gods for the same reasons (i.e. lack of evidence, contradicting history, irrational dogma, etc.). If the two of us were debating against a Muslim, we would both probably raise many of the same points and counter arguments against Muhammad and the Koran: the absurdity of a flying horse, the convenience of him being alone when God decided to reveal himself and appoint him as the de facto prophet, the barbaric and savage scripture that doesn't resonate well with modern morality, so on and so forth. The only difference is that it seems you aren't able or willing to apply the same set of reasonable standards to your own religion and God. Jesus casting out demons into a herd of pigs? Absurd. Saul being the only person to "see" God? Convenient. Brushing off God's barbaric OT literature which clashes with your ethics? Expected.

Step out of your faith bubble, mm, and treat Christianity with the same logical rigidity that you do the Islamic or Nordic or Babylonian faiths. You'll find Yahweh and Jesus have just as much evidence for their existence as Ra and Horus.

EDIT:

Somewhat related, I'm reminded of something a member said last year: "Saying that it takes faith to be an atheist is like saying that it takes time not to collect stamps." - pianodwarf

1.	This is the biblical definition of faith. It is basically Hebrews 11:1 word for word.

[jetson]

Even Australians are more civilized by comparison. 

Bwa ha ha ha...I'm betting MM enjoyed that one too!

[Ivellios]

When he stats quite plainly, "You have to make a leap of faith..." Where "faith" is synonomous with gullible. What does he think the defacto point of someone who just doesn't "make a leap of faith?" That's right mm. Being a nonbeliever requires as much faith as not believing in Santa. And just because your parents told you that Santa exists, doesn't mean that he does. People lie, parents lie. It's up to you to figure it out for yourself. And when you do, Santa doesn't suddenly stop comming, he was never there to begin with!

[Nam]

You lie!



-Nam

[Azdgari]