Author Topic: Racist bigots strick again  (Read 2767 times)

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Online Nam

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 06:27:06 PM »
There's a line from "Kingdom of Heaven" I remember, paraphrasing, "We should convert to Islam now, and ask God's forgiveness later." - or. Something to that effect. It was said by a Priest, I think, to the character of Balian when the Muslim army was destined to kill them all.

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A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 06:37:35 PM »
MM, I think that nogodsforme poses an interesting question.  Why would a loving god use kidnappers and torturers and human traffickers to commit such evil, in hopes that some of the decedents of those victims would hear his word? 

Doesn't He have access to better means of communication?  I mean, couldn't he have just sent a sign that everyone could understand, without such harm to humanity?

Either He loves us all, or He doesn't. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 06:40:18 PM »
Posing "interesting questions" was what got me in trouble all the time as a JW kid.  :angel:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jetson

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2012, 07:12:14 PM »
MM, I think that nogodsforme poses an interesting question.  Why would a loving god use kidnappers and torturers and human traffickers to commit such evil, in hopes that some of the decedents of those victims would hear his word? 

Doesn't He have access to better means of communication?  I mean, couldn't he have just sent a sign that everyone could understand, without such harm to humanity?

Either He loves us all, or He doesn't.

Quesi - I have been told by some Christians, that we are not all God's children.  Yes, that completely confused me - but, they had scriptural support, so who was I to argue.  After all, what in the hell would an atheist know about God!

Online Nam

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2012, 07:27:32 PM »
Well, backwards it's spelled D-O-G.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Quesi

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2012, 07:43:26 PM »

Quesi - I have been told by some Christians, that we are not all God's children.  Yes, that completely confused me - but, they had scriptural support, so who was I to argue.  After all, what in the hell would an atheist know about God!

Well dammit.  You mean He likes Mitt Romney better than me????  He chose Sara Palin over me????  He wants to spend eternity with Ted Haggard instead of me????

That just doesn't seem fair. 

I'm nicer than any of them. 

Offline shnozzola

Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2012, 08:02:38 PM »
Those aren't Christian values.

Christianity  - sheesh.  My mother considers herself a true Christian – she absolutely seizes only on the love of Jesus – she could care less about the resurrection or the definition of god, or all kinds of things that many Christians wouldn’t fathom.  On the thread Hatter had about a site labeling atheists as trolls, the site was pretty strongly Catholicism’s version of Christianity , and I quickly got labeled evil for questioning the virgin birth, which of course many Catholics hold  dearly.  Then there’s the current Kenyan Christian version where burning witches is to be taken literally.  MM, if you think there are not bigoted racist fucking assholes in the world that consider themselves supremely Christian even while they dream of stringing up people of another color, you have very limited life experiences.  THEY think they are every bit as Christian as the next.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 08:07:13 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2012, 08:09:24 PM »
Shnozzola, they aren't the authority on what makes someone a Christian.  Magicmiles is.  He speaks with the voice of God.
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Online Nam

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2012, 08:16:14 PM »
all one has to go to is http://kkk.org or http://stormfront.org -- plenty of True Racist Christians on those websites.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2012, 08:24:21 PM »
I'll try to address some of the responses here at a later time. Thanks.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2012, 08:32:35 PM »
I'll try to address some of the responses here at a later time. Thanks.

Thanks MM.  Family and work first.  Then you get to play with us.  :)

I genuinely look forward to your responses. 

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2012, 06:19:28 AM »

MM, may I ask you... if the message itself was so important, then why, when Christians conquered a new nation, did they feel the need to adapt the symbols and practices and traditions that existed before their arrival?  The Christmas tree is pure pagan stuff.  And the supposed birthday of Jesus is suspiciously close to the winter solstice celebrations.   The sources of Easter bunny fertility stuff definitely don't have a pg rating. And, a child conceived during the ancient fertility rituals (in which a father who was unknown) would be born right about that time. Don't you find the way they superimposed these supposedly Christian rituals onto these clearly pagan rituals?

I really don't know. A Christian who has studied history and anthropology might have a useful perspective. Christianity doesn't really need any sort of symbol apart from the cross.


And why are all of the protagonists in all of the Jesus stories so oddly European looking?  A blond haired, blue eyed Palestinian?  Really?  I think he has been (and mostly continues to be) depicted that way to make him more palatable to a European audience during the mass conversions. 

You might be right. Pretty stupid, I agree.


If it is the message that is important, and so easily acceptable, then why did those with a vested interest in spreading Christianity feel so compelled to lie and manipulate potential converts? 

Don't know, again. Although it does occur to me that if the Christian church really wanted to lie and manipulate their way to converts it might have opted to leave out some of those violent OT books and passages that members here occasionally refer to.


And why is it, that a reasonably bright, moral, good deed doing, fairly open minded woman like me, has never felt the message resonate truth?

I just don't know. Some Christians believe that God has pre-destined some people to never recognise Him. The suggestion doesn't sit well with me, I've said that before I think. Brilliant theologians[1] have written huge books on the subject. I don't really know why they bother..or maybe I do. But anyway, I know that the bible clearly teaches me to tell the Good News, and I think the rest is between God and those who hear it.

Are you positive you've never had the slightest hint of a truth resonance though? ( I asked this in the shelter once )
 1. it is not an oxy-moron. Shutup...
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2012, 06:47:34 AM »
Quesi, it demonstrates to me that the reality of God and the message of salvation was stronger for these people than the actions of humans.

Well, maybe. If you are willing to accept that the people who converted to Islam after their society was conquered by Muslim armies also immediately saw the reality of Allah and his message of salvation. Do you really think that people throw away the complex beliefs of their pagan ancestors so easily?

I imagine not. And I'm sure countless people have been horribly mis-treated in the name of Christ, and have professed to believe falsely. But I can also bear personal witness to seeing people believe in the most unlikely circumstances. I believe the message of the cross is powerful, on its own.


Or it could be that when you are enslaved and then given the choice of converting or being tortured and killed along with your family, children and elderly alike, you will at least pay lip service to the people holding the sword to your neck.

Yes, I am sure that has been the case often. It's also been the case that people have died rather than deny their faith.


Do you seriously think that a just and loving god would use brutal slave owners to lead people to his word? You do realize that one of the justifications for slavery was that the slave owners taught the slaves Christianity. Then if the slaves died from ill-treatment, at least their souls would go to heaven.

I wouldn't have thought so, no. But then again, we might have a discussion one day on what 'just' could mean to God, and how it differs from our sense the word.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2012, 06:49:47 AM »


Either He loves us all, or He doesn't.

I don't think its that simple. I'm sure its not. But...will have to be discussed another time.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2012, 06:52:37 AM »
Actually it is that simple, mm.  By logical necessity.  "X" is loving us all.  "Not-X" is not loving us all (as in, loving some quantity other than "all").

If there is a god, then by logical necessity, it either loves us all (X), or it loves some quanity other other than all (not-X).

Can you think of a third way?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2012, 06:54:14 AM »
  MM, if you think there are not bigoted racist fucking assholes in the world that consider themselves supremely Christian even while they dream of stringing up people of another color, you have very limited life experiences.

I don't think that. It's clear there are such people.

 
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2012, 06:57:05 AM »
Shnozzola, they aren't the authority on what makes someone a Christian.  Magicmiles is.  He speaks with the voice of God.

I don't. I speak what I feel and believe to be true.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2012, 07:00:16 AM »
Actually it is that simple, mm.  By logical necessity.  "X" is loving us all.  "Not-X" is not loving us all (as in, loving some quantity other than "all").

If there is a god, then by logical necessity, it either loves us all (X), or it loves some quanity other other than all (not-X).

Can you think of a third way?

No...I meant the implications of God loving us all was more complicated than what is often suggested. I should have said that more clearly.

It isn't something I have the energy to discuss now though.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2012, 07:27:51 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to respond MM.  There is so much that you don't know, and so much that you don't like. 

And yet you believe.



Are you positive you've never had the slightest hint of a truth resonance though? ( I asked this in the shelter once )

I responded to that post MM.  I responded that I have "felt" that it was impossible for a loved one to really be dead.  Years after their deaths, I still have imaginary conversations with them in my mind.  I turn to the memory of my dad when I have an ethical dilemma.  I turn to my mom when I have a really rough day.  When I accomplish something that makes me proud, I imagine how they would respond.  As I watch my beautiful daughter grow, I imagine that they are beaming with love and pride.   I would LOVE to believe that they are "guardian angels" watching me, and helping me, as they did throughout so much of my life, and sharing my joy and shouldering some of my burdens. 

But I don't. 

In terms of Adam and Eva and Abraham and Jonah and Noah all of that?  No never.  But they are great stories (mostly myths) that create a fascinating portrait of an ancient time and a very foreign culture.

Do I think that the 10 Commandments are the 10 most important value systems?  No.  I like some of them.  I think we could all benefit from not coveting.  Valuing life is paramount.  Holy Sabbath and no graven images?  I could identify some much more universal moral imperatives.  If there is such a thing. 

Jesus?  I like a lot of what he said.  Other stuff, not so much.  In terms of ancient philosophers and social activists,  I like him.  I really respect people who fight against foreign occupation, like he did some times. 

Is he the GREATEST philosopher ever?  Eh.  But he is a fascinating and complex character, worthy of historical acknowledgement.  Whether he was a real, living human being, or a myth himself, he is still fascinating.

Did his mother get pregnant by a celestial visitation and give birth as a virgin?  Ummm.  I think that is just silly.

Did he raise from the dead?  I think (if he existed) his friends think he did.  That is what I tell my daughter.  That his friends loved him so much, and that they missed him so much when he died, that they thought he came back to life, and they even told stories about it.  I can identify with so wanting someone you love to come back to life.

The trinity?  Never made a damn bit of sense to me.

The practice of Christianity?  My grandma used to hide little cards with pictures of saints on them all over he house.  We found dozens after she died.  She prayed.  She believed.  I suspect she had me secretly baptized, because my parents say she was really mad that they didn't baptize me, and then she just stopped talking about it.  She was a good person who lived a good life, and I loved her and respected her.

My parents, (atheist dad, agnostic mom) let me go to Sunday school for a few months when I was about 8 and all of my friends were going.  I begged.  They acquiesced.  It seemed forbidden and secret and really exciting.  But the Noah's Ark story just seemed silly, and the other stories were kind of boring, and the art projects were not all that interesting. 

So no.  I never "felt" it. 

I wrote in another thread "about having to pick a religion" about "feelings" I have about the connectedness of all things, and the wonder I feel about life and nature and humanity, and I blended in my value systems.  What I wrote there is what really resonates with me.

So your god does not like my values?  Maybe, I was destined to be left out of his plan at the beginning of time?  Maybe I'm just really evil to the core? 

I know your answer is that you don't know.  But are any of the possible answers really acceptable to you?


Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2012, 07:47:41 AM »
There is nothing Jesus is reported to have taught or done that could reasonably inspire people to have the attitude supposedly demonstrated in the OP news story.

Seems to be the feeling of at least some of the townsfolk...

Quote from: ABCNews
Theresa Norwood, 48, who was born in Crystal Springs and has lived there her entire life......said "what would Jesus have done? He would have married them, without a doubt, because it's the right thing to do. We're all God's children."

I wonder how up she would be for a gay couple to get married in that church?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2012, 07:48:38 AM »
I'm a little behind the topic, but I have a reply for Miles

There is nothing Jesus is reported to have taught or done that could reasonably inspire people to have the attitude supposedly demonstrated in the OP news story.

Are you smoking crack?  jesus H taught The Law.  And The Law said jews were not to marry gentiles.  They were extreme xenophobes who murdered whole tribes for such transgressions.  Remember, the Midianites - the men, the women, the male children and even their cattle were killed because of some intermarriages between Midianite women and jewish men.

And prior to that, when the hebrews were moving into canaan, their psycho god ordered them to put everyone to the sword:
Deut7:2-4
Quote
and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons,

That makes jesus H a first century Judge Dredd.

Jesus H's silence on intermarriage is not enough.  He would have needed to specifically promote interracial marriage or condemn The Law for it to be okay.  Your argument fails.


But I don't know of any Christians who choose to deliberately maintain an attitude of hate towards somebody.

I should not have to explain the No True Scotsman to you at this point.  This is a form of denial. 

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2012, 10:49:34 PM »
Thank you for taking the time to respond MM.  There is so much that you don't know, and so much that you don't like. 

And yet you believe.

Yes. Equally that could be said for an Atheist. However, for me personally what I doknow outweighs what I don't, and also means I am prepared to accept that just because I don't like some things it doesn't mean I should abandon my faith. I believe in what I know to be true, not in just whatever is comfotable to believe.





Is he the GREATEST philosopher ever?  Eh.  But he is a fascinating and complex character, worthy of historical acknowledgement.  Whether he was a real, living human being, or a myth himself, he is still fascinating.

Did his mother get pregnant by a celestial visitation and give birth as a virgin?  Ummm.  I think that is just silly.

Did he raise from the dead?  I think (if he existed) his friends think he did.  That is what I tell my daughter.  That his friends loved him so much, and that they missed him so much when he died, that they thought he came back to life, and they even told stories about it.  I can identify with so wanting someone you love to come back to life.

The trinity?  Never made a damn bit of sense to me.

The practice of Christianity?  My grandma used to hide little cards with pictures of saints on them all over he house.  We found dozens after she died.  She prayed.  She believed.  I suspect she had me secretly baptized, because my parents say she was really mad that they didn't baptize me, and then she just stopped talking about it.  She was a good person who lived a good life, and I loved her and respected her.

My parents, (atheist dad, agnostic mom) let me go to Sunday school for a few months when I was about 8 and all of my friends were going.  I begged.  They acquiesced.  It seemed forbidden and secret and really exciting.  But the Noah's Ark story just seemed silly, and the other stories were kind of boring, and the art projects were not all that interesting. 

So no.  I never "felt" it. 

I wrote in another thread "about having to pick a religion" about "feelings" I have about the connectedness of all things, and the wonder I feel about life and nature and humanity, and I blended in my value systems.  What I wrote there is what really resonates with me.

So your god does not like my values?  Maybe, I was destined to be left out of his plan at the beginning of time?  Maybe I'm just really evil to the core? 

I know your answer is that you don't know.  But are any of the possible answers really acceptable to you?

I believe your sin separates you from God, same as everybody else. The really difficult thing (for me, anyway) is to imagine something so perfect that by its very nature it cannot live with sin. But that is what I believe God to be.

But no, I simply don't know why some believe this and others don't, apart from believing that it wasn't me who found God, but the other way around.

It sort of does sound to me, though, that even if you did start feeling on some level that God might actually be real you'd struggle to take a leap of faith. At what point would you be willing to put aside the things that don't add up to you? Would you treat it strictly as an accounting ledger, needing more credits than debits?

PS - I wonder if Hallmark has considered the possible market for 'secret baptism' cards?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2012, 10:58:22 PM »


Are you smoking crack?

This forum is my crack.


  jesus H taught The Law.  And The Law said jews were not to marry gentiles.  They were extreme xenophobes who murdered whole tribes for such transgressions.  Remember, the Midianites - the men, the women, the male children and even their cattle were killed because of some intermarriages between Midianite women and jewish men.

And prior to that, when the hebrews were moving into canaan, their psycho god ordered them to put everyone to the sword:
Deut7:2-4
Quote
and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons,

That makes jesus H a first century Judge Dredd.

Jesus H's silence on intermarriage is not enough.  He would have needed to specifically promote interracial marriage or condemn The Law for it to be okay.  Your argument fails.


The discussion on Jesus and OT law is way more than I have the capacity to get stuck into. I know it's convenient to claim that Jesus intended for OT law to continue, and some bible verses seem to suggest that. Some suggest otherwise. I think when you take the bible as a whole it's clear that the OT law was for Jews living before Jesus' death.

I certainly fail to see how modern day followers of Christ could take even OT rules on Jews marrying gentiles to oppose two black people marrying, or even a black person marrying a white person.

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2012, 11:03:46 PM »
I don't. I speak what I feel and believe to be true.

Which, in practice, has the authority of a god.  For you.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2012, 11:14:50 PM »
I don't. I speak what I feel and believe to be true.

Which, in practice, has the authority of a god.  For you.

Your previous comment seemed to imply I considered myself an ultimate authority, unassailable in my wisdom. That's far from true.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2012, 11:21:58 PM »
You are the ultimate authority on what is or is not a Christian value, and who is or is not a Christian.

That's a high enough pedestal, no?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2012, 12:47:46 AM »
You are the ultimate authority on what is or is not a Christian value, and who is or is not a Christian.

That's a high enough pedestal, no?

I'm not the ultimate authority on anything.

So perhaps I expressed my opinion a little too forcefully. I apologise.

From my perspective, I find it difficult to reconcile the alleged actions of these church members with somebody who has given over their life to Jesus and seeks to follow Him. Thinking about it more, people could probably say that about some of my deeds.

It's just that I know that I actively try and not do wrong. All Christians I know and have ever known arwe the same. And the attitude on show here seems to be a deliberate one of hate and intolerance of black people.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2012, 01:14:58 AM »
These people probably feel they're in the right.  Unfortunately, Jesus is not here to set the record straight.  If he exists, then he must wish for this ambiguity to reign.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Racist bigots strick again
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2012, 01:38:18 AM »
These people probably feel they're in the right.  Unfortunately, Jesus is not here to set the record straight.  If he exists, then he must wish for this ambiguity to reign.

Maybe they don't even try to justify their attitude. The story was pretty thin on details and balanced perspective, after all.

That sort of thinking falls short anyway. Where would we be without some sort of ambiguity in our lives?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 01:48:17 AM by magicmiles »
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.