College vs. Those Who Didn't Go

[Nam]

This is not a discussion about how those who go to college are better equipped to the anals of society in regards to a better job or life; this about the egoism of people who think because they're in college or graduated from college that they are better than everyone else, or that they know more about things than one who didn't.

I am going to give you some minor information about me:

1. I never graduated High School.

Why? At the time, 24 credits, and certain courses and tests had to be met for one to graduate. At the beginning of my Senior year I had 16 and a half credits. 6 courses a year, technically by "credits" I only needed 7 and a half. Which meant if I took summer school I could have gotten those credits. The problem was though I had all the main credits (minus a couple of math and one elective), I had 8 credits in Science. I took JROTC for 3 years, which counted as a Science credit.

So, a month in, an Administreator called me in to his office, and asked me to withdraw or he'd be forced to kick me out. So, I withdrew.

Went to a Vocational school where they were more interested in my parents money than educating me. Then I moved to North Florida, and went to a Vocational school there where I attended classes to get my diploma through the local High School but then the state rose the 24 credits to 28, and the Vocational school just didn't have enough elective classes to meet that. I got up to 20 credits, and just needed the 4 in math to get the 24 before they raised it to 28.

At that time I had an 8th grade education in math. I took the GED, and failed the math by a large margin. I took it again 7 years ago with an 11th gade education in math. Missed it by 5 points based on my math score. Then the state made the math part of the test more difficult. Haven't taken it since, and have no inclination to.

So, according to society: I am uneducated. Though I did score high on the ASVAB but barely passed the math part.

2. I have written in excess of 15.000 poems for the past 20 years. Most of the first 11 years of them are either average or just aren't good, at all. However, I have been published world wide. In India (mainly my nature poems), South Africa, and a religious poem published by a magazine in Italy.

I have 5 self-published books, last one published in 2008, which have made me enough money to live off, without a job, for two years. I didn't advertise any of them. I probably should have.

3. I have voluntarily written Biographies for about 50 (est.) authors (mainly poets) for about 8 literary websites online. Some credit me, some don't.

I have written Guidelines on how to service members of varying websites over the years. A few may still be in use. Haven't checked.

4. I have been a moderator, administrator, and a researcher for at least 15 websites since 2002.

5. I have held the position of "Teacher" twice in my life. Once at my first job at a YMCA[1], where I taught children, and also held the position of Counselor. And, I taught a class online on "How to Properly Critique" for awhile. I've written countless articles on the subject over the years. Some actually published by online magazines.

And yet, what I've accomplished in 20 years[2] most won't in their entire lifetime. Now, granted, I haven't gotten any of my work published by a major publishing company but that's because I haven't submitted anything to them. I prefer the meager arena in which I grace my accomplishments. I'm not of that state-of-mind, which is rarely why I tell people outside my field of interest.

But even those in my field, those with college degrees or those in the process of getting them, even with my meager accomplishments, I'm still beneath them. And, they think like this with everyone without a college degree.

Why is that? Is it that they were born with this ego, or is it something they learned in college?

I recently used the word "diatribe" towards one of these people, and they asked where I learned such a word? As if college is where you go to learn words such as that.

One of my students in the online course I taught years ago, thought my teaching skills were that of a child 'cause I gave her a C. She complained to the "Headmaster", and she agreed with my grade for her. The student, who was attending Brown, said that we were both wrong 'cause she attends Brown.

Where does this ego come from? Is it there before one goes to college, or after?

I sometimes write good, and I sometimes don't but just 'cause you went to college doesn't mean you always write good, nor does it mean you write better than one who never did.

My father graduated from a University, his poetry is sub par compared to my own. He doesn't understand why. I can answer that: I've been studying it longer. He hasn't.

I also hear all the time, even on this website, that the "uneducated" (I feel in the sense they never went to college) are oblivious to the realities of the world because of such aspects. Where that may be partially true, I do not think it is wholly true. Especially since many with educations sometimes say the most uneducated of things.

-Nam

1.	I was an atheist but I didn't tell them that
2.	since I was 15

[Nick]

Nam, all very good points.  Seems like society is tied to the piece of paper saying we did something to get a foot in the door.  Not right but it is what it is.
Looks like to me that your school failed you early on.  Someone should have had an eye on you much earlier with credits so you would not have been in that situation at the end.  Who tells someone to withdrawl like that?

[HAL]

I think Nam is jealous.

[Quesi]

There are a lot of people who sit through 4 years of high school and 4 years of college, and do exactly what is required of them.  And nothing more.

Then there are people who are learners.  I think that most of us here are learners.  We can learn in classrooms, or on our own from the books on our shelves and in our personal libraries.  We can learn through forum discussions.  We can learn through travel.  We can learn through independent research.  We can learn through trial and error.  We can learn by taking things apart and putting them back together.  We can learn by testing our own words on paper or the computer screen, and then revisiting the words and editing them and fine tuning them to say exactly what we want to say. 

A college degree demonstrates that you put out a certain amount of effort and (supposedly) dedicated a few years of your life to learning.  But the way you live your life makes you an educated person.  Or not. 

[Timo]

I'm someone who has a bachelor's degree from an elite, fancy pants institution.  I transferred there from a community college that I had started attending once I figured out that I wasn't built for what they call the 'street life.'  By the time that I graduated, I was three years older than just about everyone in my class. 

More recently, I'm someone who has been trying to figure out a way back into graduate school and what I'd study there if I were to go...having had some bad experiences osculating back and forth between seriously attempting to get into the music industry and to seriously land a nice, secure corporate job.  I don't think that the people I know that managed to go straight into a corporate job out of college or the people who had the presence of mind to ride the recession out in graduate school or law school or the people who lucked into a job in the entertainment industry are necessarily smarter or more talented than I am.  I'm kind of with Herman Cain on this minor point.  Luck is where preparation and opportunity intersect.  I feel like I've had a lot of preparation for a lot of different things, but sadly, not the opportunity to share that.

My second greatest fear in life is that I'll never be able to live up to what I feel is my potential.  My greatest fear is that I am, in fact, living up to it.  I don't know.  Is this on topic?


Peace

[Nick]

Good example...George W Bush.

[Quesi]

Good example...George W Bush.

Oh yeah.  Hard to believe that his intellect and personal commitment to academic pursuits merited an ivy league education.....

[kindred]

LOL. I'm in a fancy pants institution myself. Just a sophomore and companies are already giving me offers. TROLOLOLOL

Seriously, though. It's true. Its more to do with tying yourself to a reputable institution. You go to college to learn AND borrow credibility from the institution itself. People think that because you're good enough for the prestigious institution to claim as their own then you must be good. Its not exactly very good reasoning and I wish I didn't have to rely on it but what you gonna do? Its not as if the employers have any other reliable variables to look at.

In the OP's case, you seem to have gathered enough contacts to gain the credibility needed in your line of business, so why the bitterness? Idiots are gonna be idiots. Don't mind them.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

[snipped]
But even those in my field, those with college degrees or those in the process of getting them, even with my meager accomplishments, I'm still beneath them. And, they think like this with everyone without a college degree.

Why is that? Is it that they were born with this ego, or is it something they learned in college?

I recently used the word "diatribe" towards one of these people, and they asked where I learned such a word? As if college is where you go to learn words such as that.

One of my students in the online course I taught years ago, thought my teaching skills were that of a child 'cause I gave her a C. She complained to the "Headmaster", and she agreed with my grade for her. The student, who was attending Brown, said that we were both wrong 'cause she attends Brown.

Where does this ego come from? Is it there before one goes to college, or after?

Actually, that sort of thing comes from insecurity.  When one is losing on the merits of what one says, one tends to fall back on something akin to appeals to authority.  Whenever I see someone trying to prevail based on their past accomplishments, I always snigger.  I always read such things as a sign of weakness.

I also hear all the time, even on this website, that the "uneducated" (I feel in the sense they never went to college) are oblivious to the realities of the world because of such aspects. Where that may be partially true, I do not think it is wholly true. Especially since many with educations sometimes say the most uneducated of things.

-Nam

I think most people use the word 'uneducated' in this context, not to denote the extent of one's formal education, but rather, the extent to which one has sought education on the subject in question.  The term 'intellectually incurious' seems to be more accurate.  Sarah Palin could not be said to be 'uneducated' (I believe she attended 5 schools to get her bachelor's degree).  Rather, the meat of the criticism against her was that she neither learned from her mistakes nor sought out additional information on the subject in which she was being challenged.

[Willie]

Nam,

You mention being stymied by math at several points. I think that one of the greatest failings of the way that education is currently done is that it so often actively prevents people from succeeding in one subject area because of a weakness in another. Mathematics is probably the subject area that most often holds people back, but I'm sure I'm not the only math/science nerd that ever found himself facing the specter of failing to graduate high school because of difficulties in humanities classes.

I suspect that this kind of situation is common. possibly even the rule rather than the exception. And it has a multitude of ill effects, such as hating school, stress, low self esteem, and diversion of effort into shoring up weaknesses to such extent that a person's real talents are left to atrophy. And those are some of the milder effects. More severe outcomes are failure to graduate, failure to attain further education, failure to get a decent job, and potentially a whole lifetime of poverty and the loss of a talented person's potential contribution to the whole human endeavor.

I think this problem stems from an over-emphasis of the idea of a "balanced" or "well rounded" education. Exposure to, and basic competence in, a variety of subjects is a good thing to strive for. But when that becomes a hard requirement instead of just a goal, we end up with what we have now, a system in which we have to set a low bar in all subjects (because otherwise, hardly anyone at all would be able to pass all of the required topics in the allotted time), and thus a system in which across-the-board mediocrity can succeed while specialized, sometimes even extraordinary, talent is met with failure. It's an epic waste of human potential.

[Barracuda]

It is just a fact that those with college degrees tend to have higher IQs than those who do not. Given the fact that a degree entails certain classes were taken, it is also fair to assume they are more knowledgeable.

[Kimberly]

You would think that Barracuda. It should be reviewed in context. Around here if you have a degree you are more likely to get a promotion at just about every job in town. I guess there are lots of people around here who didn't go to college. There are some pretty good entry level positions available that pay well. But if you want to get promoted you better hope your job performance sparkles or have a degree. I've said it else where but at my fiance's company he is a "part time" supervisor. The only reason he is "part time" and not "full time" is because he doesn't have a degree. He does the exact same job. It's not even really a matter of hours worked either. There's only 5 hours difference and I wanna say like 10-15K more per year if you are a full time supervisor. What your degree is in really doesn't matter. This one dude has a degree in theater. I'm not sure how that makes him more qualified to manage people but according the big heads it does.

[Barracuda]

What do you mean by "reviewed in context?" What context is needed?

[Kimberly]

My second greatest fear in life is that I'll never be able to live up to what I feel is my potential.  My greatest fear is that I am, in fact, living up to it.  I don't know.  Is this on topic?

I was going to reply to this the other day but I hit a road block... I was going to say that I chose the "family" path instead of "career". I was going to argue how I sacrificed my education and career for "family". Then I realized my life doesn't reflect this at all. I always put my career before my family. Well not always but often enough that it's hard to say I put my family first. So basically my life goals and decisions don't reflect the life I'm living.

I had to drop out of high school because of my mother's mental illness. I would have graduated on time, there was nothing holding me back. But I couldn't live with her any more and had to become self sufficient at 17. I worked a full time job and tried to succeed in life.

I really failed at the adult thing for a long time. I didn't decide to go back and get my GED until the birth of my daughter. My only motivation was not wanting to be called a hypocrite when I told her she could never drop out of school like I did. I didn't do it to further my education or to get a better job. Although the GED did lead to me getting my current job, I wouldn't have been eligible with out the GED.

Any ways, moral of the story is I always thought my career was just a way for me to provide for my family. That I would invest all of my energy and potential in to my family. I sacrificed education numerous times in my life for my family. It wouldn't bother me if I didn't let my career interrupt my relationship with my family.

I'm seriously reconsidering my life plan. IDK what path I want to be on or if I need to accept that I can have both career and family. But I don't want to feel like you said. I fear that I am, in fact, living up to my potential. If that's the case then I've both failed my family and myself. I could be better if I had more focus on my goals.

[Kimberly]

What do you mean by "reviewed in context?" What context is needed?

If I want to be a _____ for _____ my college degree should reflect a relevant study. In other words having a degree in theater should not make me more eligible for a supervisor position. Or having a degree in psychology shouldn't make me more eligible for a job as a writer. In the situation of my fiance his company should judge the candidates on their track record or proven assets to the company. Not give the promotion to someone who has a degree based on no other criteria. That default position is negligible at best.

[Nam]

I agree with Kimberly. My brother has a degree in Film, and he's of a high position at a Securities firm he works at. It has nothing to do with film.

He told me just a few months ago that those with degrees get the higher positions, no matter what the degree is in, because it shows they know how to deal with stressful situations. Ridiculous. As if a person working 100+ hours at a factory, or similar job doesn't know about stress.

-Nam

[Kimberly]

I've seen this type of behavior at numerous companies. They always tell us it shows dedication, work ethic, and a bunch of other blah blah blah. My boss asked me if I was going to put my education on my annual performance review. I don't need to further my education to do my job, but if I put that on my performance review I would get a better raise/bonus annually.

[stuffin]

Application is one of my pet peeves regarding this line of thought. You can retain all the knowledge in the world, but if you can't manipulate and apply it to every day work situations, it is wasted knowledge.

I work in the medical field which is full of people with degrees and certifications, all aimed at increasing their paycheck, and not necessarily aimed at providing better care to the patient.

Also, many of these Doctorate and Masters Degree folks go about their business without regards to facts, circumstances and the workings of society. Frequently they miss details or events that screw things up and others are left scrambling to rectify the situation. They go about their business oblivious to what happened and if you bring it up they give the usually salute. Of course if the poop hits the fan they are very fast at blaming the ancillary staff for the problem. 

(usual satlue = raising your hands, palms forward, to almost shoulder height and shrugging your shoulders).

[Ambassador Pony]

When I refer to someone as uneducated, I usually mean that they don't know the basics required to have the discussion they want to have with me. It's just the basics, but it's important.

[nogodsforme]

I am one of those overeducated people with a whole bunch of fancy pants degrees. I value my book learnin' because I came from an inner city background and I struggled hard to get into college.

However, the most important things I know about life and the world came from living with incredibly poor, illiterate people in third world countries. I have so much respect for people who know how to grow food, fish and hunt, raise animals, build things, repair things, and survive some of the most difficult situations life can throw at them. They know how to do things I will never be able to accomplish.

The upshot? Human beings overall are very smart. And everyone should have the opportunity to learn from others and fulfill their potential.

[Nam]

nogodsforme,

What you say reminds me of a scene in "The Breakfast Club", where Judd Nelson's character scolds the brainy character played by Anthony Michael Hall's character thinking that shop class would be easy 'cause it's shop class.

-Nam

[nogodsforme]

Why do people think that actually doing something useful in high school is a waste of time? Shop and drafting were two of the best things I took.

[Nam]

I've been scolded by foreigners saying that I, and other Americans are stupid 'cause seem to know only one language (English), when most of them know several.

I replied, "I can read and write Olde English --can you?". I was told that it didn't count since it was still English. So, I sent them a message telling them what I thought of them in Olde English -- they had no clue what I said.

Though since I haven't read anything lately, or translated any old texts for a couple of websites online, I do feel it slipping away.

I read Modern English all the time, that's a constant; it seems different with other languages, for me, since I learned by translating them from multiple sources.

Like Manderin. I can read the calligraphy but it's my own designation of what they sound like since I've only done it written down, reference books, or at least ones I've used in the past were not phonetic.

-Nam

[kin hell]

I think Nam is jealous.

Come on bloke, you put "some people call me a bully ...what do you think?" under your avatar, and you post this snipe in the thread of one of the people who you've been accused of bullying, who happens to be the OP.

It doesn't address the OP topic at all. It only attacks the poster.

Considering you've not qualified it with an emoticon or anything like to show you are trying to be humorous (and not just bullying), then it can only be seen as a pointed jab.

So why did you post it?

One (:edit remove inaccuracy) possible interpretation is you that are continuing to engage in a personal vendetta across topics (deliberately against forum rules of which you have the least credibility in denying knowledge) with the sole aim of causing someone discomfort for your own personal gain.

How the fuck is that not acting like a bully?

..................reported for taking a grudge match across topics



re the OP 
when you look at the teepee as an example of sublime engineering (ie building something so efficient using only the materials to hand[1]) you must recognise that it didn't require an engineering degree at any point of its evolution.

A college degree is just another added patina to already existing intelligence.

Some college students are going to be dumber than wombat turds.

And there will be un-colleged plebs out there that know that wombats when it comes down to the real shit, are cubists by nature.

1.	for those who never looked into the complex design structure and real functionality of a teepee, it represents one technology pushed to perfection in terms of imposed limitations

[Nam]

Kin hell,

I believe I smited him for it. But let's try not to turn this topic into banter.

-Nam

[Timtheskeptic]

i have managed to get into community college shortly but after finishing two classes, i left because i can no longer get a ride to school and i'm rather disappointed. I do think that community colleges or colleges are like boot camps for the mind, but with no promises that you'll land a job because you'll still have to apply many times. Even now when the economy is still crappy i think. Unless i am wrong.

[kin hell]

Kin hell,

I believe I smited him for it. But let's try not to turn this topic into banter.

-Nam

Nam
please note I addressed the OP directly

any further discussion of Hals post can easily be addressed in its own thread ....if anyone feels the need.

[Nam]

My father got a Bachelor's degree, he's still doing the same job he's had since 1981/2.

-Nam

[Kimberly]

<cut> but with no promises that you'll land a job because you'll still have to apply many times. Even now when the economy is still crappy i think. Unless i am wrong.

That's what scares me! Having to pay to go to school, going in debt, and being no better career wise than I am now! Plus I royally suck at math. Why do I have to take math to get a degree?!?! What if what I want to study doesn't require math as part of it's job function? I would royally fail any college level match class unless I paid someone to take it for me! Seriously, I'm that bad. The only reason I passed the GED math test was because I crammed it for months at this GED class offered by the local college. That was high school level and it took all I had to get through it.