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Offline Ninjef

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WWGHA just not thorough enough
« on: July 24, 2012, 10:57:11 PM »
From WWGHA, Chapter 5:
"In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Since a mustard seed is a tiny inanimate object about the size of a grain of salt, it is easy to imagine that the faith of a mustard seed is fairly small. So, paraphrasing, what Jesus is saying is that if you have the tiniest bit of faith, you can move mountains."

What if very few people (or nobody but Jesus) have ever truly had this tiniest bit of faith? What if the message is that we are all faithless, and that if we had even the tiniest bit of faith we would know that we had it because incredible miracles would be happening all the time?

Or what if the qualities it takes to have enough faith to move mountains also very commonly cause people to not really care to have their limbs regrown?

These are simple questions which I feel have not at all been addressed in WWGHA.

Thanks,
-jef
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Offline Astreja

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 11:28:01 PM »
Quote from: Ninjef on July 24, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
What if very few people (or nobody but Jesus) have ever truly had this tiniest bit of faith? What if the message is that we are all faithless, and that if we had even the tiniest bit of faith we would know that we had it because incredible miracles would be happening all the time?

Personally, Jef, I think that faith does not possess any magical powers and is 100% incapable of causing any miracles on its own.  The human experience thus far clearly indicates that it's physical effort that moves the mountains, literally and figuratively.  Faith may inspire someone to pick up a shovel and start loading that mountain into a wheelbarrow, though.

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 11:33:40 PM »
Quote from: Ninjef on July 24, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
From WWGHA, Chapter 5:
"In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Since a mustard seed is a tiny inanimate object about the size of a grain of salt, it is easy to imagine that the faith of a mustard seed is fairly small. So, paraphrasing, what Jesus is saying is that if you have the tiniest bit of faith, you can move mountains."

What if very few people (or nobody but Jesus) have ever truly had this tiniest bit of faith? What if the message is that we are all faithless, and that if we had even the tiniest bit of faith we would know that we had it because incredible miracles would be happening all the time?

Or what if the qualities it takes to have enough faith to move mountains also very commonly cause people to not really care to have their limbs regrown?

These are simple questions which I feel have not at all been addressed in WWGHA.

Thanks,
-jef

Then you disagree with people when they claim miracles happen because of prayer then, no? At which case then WWGHA is correct again and as thorough as it needs to be.
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Offline oogabooga

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 11:56:22 PM »
Quote from: Ninjef on July 24, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
What if very few people (or nobody but Jesus) have ever truly had this tiniest bit of faith? What if the message is that we are all faithless, and that if we had even the tiniest bit of faith we would know that we had it because incredible miracles would be happening all the time?
If people are incapable of the tiniest bit of faith, religious becomes superfluous and useless. Why believe in god if you can't believe in god? Which would also mean that there's no heaven for anyone. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't go down well with the Christian community in general.

Quote
Or what if the qualities it takes to have enough faith to move mountains also very commonly cause people to not really care to have their limbs regrown?
That's not the question. Not caring if your limb regrows should serve as more of an incentive to god to help you, since you're not selfish. And god supposedly loves to help those who don't pray for their own selfish desires.

But that's not the point either. There are no mountains being moved by faith alone, there are no limbs regrown by an omnipotent god, regardless of what people do in order to achieve that. No amount of prayer has ever produced anything that doesn't regularly occur in nature without any kind of intervention of Christians. Simply put: there are no 'miracles' that wouldn't have happened regardless of the amount of people who believe in any kind of god. Stuff happens. It happens to everyone. And no matter how much you believe or how fervently or often you pray, it'll keep happening the very same way.

Quote
These are simple questions which I feel have not at all been addressed in WWGHA.

Thanks,
-jef
Frankly, those are not questions, they're fairly lame attempts at cop-outs. By ignoring the fact that the whole title is a metaphor for an obvious miracle you've created a straw man and you're trying to beat it silly. It's been attempted before, you know.
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Offline Grimm

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 06:02:05 AM »
If faith is a requirement for salvation, and if, throughout human history, no one has had even that tiniest iota of faith, then what is the point of the religion and salvation in the first place?
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Offline Nick

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 06:31:26 AM »
Why would I want to move a mountain?  Seems like a waste of time and someone is going to be pissed to wake up and find a mountain on top of them.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 07:33:24 AM »
Quote from: Ninjef on July 24, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
What if very few people (or nobody but Jesus) have ever truly had this tiniest bit of faith? What if the message is that we are all faithless, and that if we had even the tiniest bit of faith we would know that we had it because incredible miracles would be happening all the time?

It's an interesting response, but I don't think you'll find many theists using it (if indeed any at all).  Nobody is going to say that the reason they can't work miracles is that they don't really believe what they say they believe.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 07:51:48 AM »
Quote from: Nick on July 25, 2012, 06:31:26 AM
Why would I want to move a mountain?  Seems like a waste of time and someone is going to be pissed to wake up and find a mountain on top of them.

After all, I generally find a Kansas farmhouse to be quite sufficient to piss someone off to find on top of them.
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Offline oogabooga

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 07:58:24 AM »
I've often seen lack of faith used as an excuse for lack of miracles. I find such argument arrogant and offending to other believers. How the hell does one know how much or how fervently (and how sincerely) other people believe? Granted, we only have their word for it, since belief and its amounts are impossible to measure in any other way, but nonetheless.

The real question still remains - how do all those Christians who accuse other Christians of either lacking faith or praying the wrong way (or for the wrong reasons), know all that? The same goes for the 'if he/she/it did that, he/she/it wasn't a true Christian' (more specifically the No true Scotsman fallacy) claims. HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT FOR A FACT? So far no-one has ever given me anything even resembling a coherent response that didn't require a huge amount of circular reasoning. People who pray for their limbs back firmly believe that they believe enough and that they pray the right way and for the right reasons. What else is there?
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 09:49:06 AM »
@oogabooga

They will not give an answer to your questions TO US. Even when they disagree amongst themselves theyd rather side with each other to oppose us non-believers (readas "you may be wrong but at least youre not 'them'") As youve seen, they will resort to outright lies, mental gymnastics, befuddlement, handwaving, smoke n mirrors, etc I have read some some theist boards and while they dont have to use all of that with people who share in their delusion THEY DO however use the True Scottsman falacy against each other. Not necessarily with against the person theyre discussing with, rather when discussing others outside the conversation.

For instance i read a thread where a pastor didnt consider the bible inerrant, it was stated in the thread that no True Christian would hold the view. I never did finish the long thread to see how it turned out because my pain threshold for entire communities of circular 'reasoning' and delusion is very low.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 11:45:44 AM »
People are willing to die every day for a promise of heaven, without ever having seen heaven or met anyone who's been there. If that doesn't qualify for at least the minimum amount of faith that Jesus spoke of, then it is simply an impossible goal and Jesus was a liar.
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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 11:47:50 AM »
Quote from: Hatter23 on July 25, 2012, 07:51:48 AM
Quote from: Nick on July 25, 2012, 06:31:26 AM
Why would I want to move a mountain?  Seems like a waste of time and someone is going to be pissed to wake up and find a mountain on top of them.

After all, I generally find a Kansas farmhouse to be quite sufficient to piss someone off to find on top of them.
I was highly pissed when that happened to my sister...
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Offline oogabooga

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 02:44:30 AM »
@The Gawd

I never understood that kind of 'commitment'. I've seen that way too often and the perpetrators aren't just believers. People seem to think it's good and proper to back up [insert name of members of a random group that's perceived as 'yours'] at any cost, even if/when they're obviously wrong. I for one dislike that. If I make a mistake, I count on my friends to correct me, so I won't keep on doing that same mistake over and over again. If they fail to do that, I don't consider them my friends or allies. I've left quite a few forums because of small groups of people who stuck together no matter what and gang up on others just because groupthink is easier than using your own brain and taking time to check shit out.

I understand that no one likes it when someone proves them wrong. But getting new information, being offered a new insight on things, and correcting mistakes is far more important for me (and in my opinion the entire humanity) than my own petty feelings. I like answers, I really do, even if they are in direct contrast to my beliefs, whatever they may be. When facts change, I change my mind, like John Maynard Keynes said. I don't look for excuses to keep believing something that's blatantly wrong, I won't stick to anything I've said or believed in the past, if that's no longer true.

But I guess that's something one has to learn. I was lucky enough to learn by example because my parents never hesitated admitting they were wrong when proven so, and they never spared me cohered arguments for their statements. My attitude towards my own opinion is probably the reason why strongly idealistic people find me fickle. I just can't commit to any ideology, never could. I seem to be incapable of groupthink (not always, I've been swayed more than once before). I practically don't believe anyone and I check out every single thing. I'm adamant that I need to form my own opinion and that it has to be informed. If the information I base my opinion on proves incomplete, incorrect or false, I'll simply disregard it and move on. I haven't lost a limb over changing my mind yet and I've found out it doesn't even hurt. Actually, finding new information and the very act of changing my perception due to it is something I revel in and have fun with. Go figure.
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Offline blue

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 02:22:32 PM »
^^^ Dennis Markuze is that you? Tssk, tssk.
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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 02:23:41 PM »
He's been spotted on another forum. Pretty sure that violates his parole or whatever.
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 05:31:28 PM »
           It is interesting that you say “………………These are simple questions……………….”  I don’t think they are simple at all.  That is why there are so many denominations.  So many interpretations. 

           Possibly these words attributed to Jesus mean – even though a mustard seed is small, all it does is try the very best it can with what it has – it is the faith in itself that may be the key.  When someplace else Jesus speaks about a commander of soldiers who has perfect faith in those under him, Jesus is taken back by this amount of faith.
           I think Astreja is more to this point with the wheelbarrow, knowing the great pyramids or more (mountains, or space elevators)
 can be built with faith in ourselves and each other.

                                  -no God needed (or present)
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Online HAL

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012, 08:42:56 PM »
Hello David Mabus. Have the cops called you yet? They should be around shortly.
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2012, 08:59:02 PM »
Posted from the Second Cup on St.Denis (appropriately) in Montréal.

Banned, and reported to the authorities.

Dennis, you need help. Please seek it.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 09:56:55 PM »
Can somebody PM me the story behind this poster? I can't help but be curious...
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 10:26:42 PM »
Quote from: Nick on July 25, 2012, 06:31:26 AM
Why would I want to move a mountain?  Seems like a waste of time and someone is going to be pissed to wake up and find a mountain on top of them.

Ya'll didn't know this about me but I have faith the size of a watermelon seed. There is a plan, and it is MY faith that everything is unfolding according to this plan.[1] My faith nullifies everyone else's faux faith...or even real faith, if theirs is only the size of a mustard seed.

To put it more succinctly if one person's faith can move a mountain, then another persons faith can keep that mountain in it's place if they don't want to see it moved.

It all depends on who's faith is stronger.

 1. Do not ask me about this plan. I do not know the details and have no proof of it's existence but I have faith in it.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 10:42:16 PM »
Nobody got shot or hit by a car or stabbed in that video, so it's all good right? Amiright? All good.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2012, 04:23:00 AM »
Quote from: Ninjef on July 24, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
What if very few people ..... have ever truly had this tiniest bit of faith? What if the message is that we are all faithless, and that if we had even the tiniest bit of faith we would know that we had it because incredible miracles would be happening all the time?

As has been said, this means that there are very, very few people in heaven, since faith in Jesus is a requirement of entry.  If, as you say, very few (almost no) people have the faith to "move mountains", then they likewise lack the faith necessary to go to heaven.

So....you're saying that the vast majority of Christians will miss out on salvation?  That maybe a fraction of 1% of believers will actually be saved?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2012, 08:26:26 AM »
Quote from: magicmiles on July 29, 2012, 09:56:55 PM
Can somebody PM me the story behind this poster? I can't help but be curious...

google dennis markuze or david mabus
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Offline Astreja

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2012, 12:48:01 AM »
Dennis, please go to the St-Laurent police station and turn yourself in so that you can serve the rest of your sentence in a controlled environment without Internet access, or attend the closest hospital and request psychiatric help.
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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2012, 02:06:58 AM »
Dennis is off the wagon again.

Quote from: therevenger2012 on August 04, 2012, 11:24:39 PM
do you think you can threaten my right to FREE SPEECH?

what if I told you that I am not who you think I am….


Ha, I love this line. Feeling that his free speech has been violated however there is no speech in any of his posts to violate. For freedom of speech to be violated (I believe) meaningful speech needs to be spoken. But with this little troll all he does is post bullshit and has no intent of carrying on a discussion. So, simply deleting a post or banning a user like this fool doesn't count as anti-free speech, but simply telling someone to shut the fuck up the only way possible on the Internet.

 Oh well, I find posts like these a bit humorous. Mostly because since I closed my youtube account I'd forgotten all about Non-Stamp Collector, the 'if atheists ruled the world' video, and Edward Current.[1]

 1. I'll be honest, I've given up following the youtube atheist-theist drama that happened years back, and just stopped caring.
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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2012, 02:32:19 AM »
At EvC Forum whenever Markuze posts one of his screeds with a new account his username is changed to 'Dennis Markuze' (and the thread is usually locked when he keeps posting his crazy rants). Maybe that should be done here as well?
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Offline Garja

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2012, 03:34:21 PM »
Dont you hate it when you only hear the end of the conversation but you can tell it was quite interesting?  I feel like that right now.
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Offline jetson

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2012, 04:06:16 PM »
Quote from: Garja on August 05, 2012, 03:34:21 PM
Dont you hate it when you only hear the end of the conversation but you can tell it was quite interesting?  I feel like that right now.

Trust us, you missed nothing.
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Offline Garja

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Re: WWGHA just not thorough enough
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2012, 08:34:13 PM »
I know I know... I just love other peoples' drama.  I keep my ass out of it, but im admittedly nosy.
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