Author Topic: Prayer doesn't work  (Read 4386 times)

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Online Azdgari

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2012, 10:36:33 PM »
I really feel that we're not on the same page here. The story as described is false. I don't doubt it.

And the person repeating it as if it was true (like czar), is...<pick an option from my last post>

Your analagy isn't helpful in this case, because we can identify the person making the claim, and we can quickly get to the bottom of how they got it wrong.

Identify for me the person behind this story and I'll fly to Canada and buy you a beer.

That's a fair criticism of my analogy.  Of course, we can't prove that nobody had a similar experience.  But the current version, along with (probably) most of its variants, is obviously false.  Which brings up the question, why is it still distributed so much?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Online wright

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2012, 10:49:05 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Czar.

well something somewhere must be true.
anthropologists lied for a long time but the bones were real.

 God is there, don't be scared homie.

What anthropologists lied about what, exactly?
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Aspie

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2012, 03:29:08 AM »
well something somewhere must be true.
anthropologists lied for a long time but the bones were real.

 God is there, don't be scared homie.

They discovered God's bones? I guess that answers the question of why he won't heal amputees.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2012, 03:33:59 AM »
The question now, of course, is whether Czar will retract his accusation that Jetson was lying and apologise, and accept that those studeis do indeed show no difference.

well something somewhere must be true.
God is there, don't be scared homie.

...so I guess the answer is that he won't.  I consistently find it both amazing and saddening at the number of people who come here professing a belief in a higher power, but who seem incapable of displaying any but the most base level of human interaction.  I'd have thought - I'd have hoped - that exposure to the divine would make a person a lot more aware of their failings, a lot more able to admit when they are wrong.  Perhaps that is the greatest evidence that there IS no god?  Or, at least, that a lot fewer people have "found" that god than actually make the claim.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2012, 05:26:33 AM »
The question now, of course, is whether Czar will retract his accusation that Jetson was lying and apologise, and accept that those studeis do indeed show no difference.

well something somewhere must be true.
God is there, don't be scared homie.

...so I guess the answer is that he won't.  I consistently find it both amazing and saddening at the number of people who come here professing a belief in a higher power, but who seem incapable of displaying any but the most base level of human interaction.  I'd have thought - I'd have hoped - that exposure to the divine would make a person a lot more aware of their failings, a lot more able to admit when they are wrong.  Perhaps that is the greatest evidence that there IS no god?  Or, at least, that a lot fewer people have "found" that god than actually make the claim.
to the contrary. Their inability to admit their mistakes is actually evidense that we were created in their god's image. Dishonesty is close to godliness. We're talking about a "god" that all through his autobiography makes mistake after mistake like a bumbling dolt, but instead of admitting to the mistakes he just defines his mistakes as perfections, problem solved. Why would his lemmings do anything else?

Online Nam

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2012, 09:55:48 AM »
well something somewhere must be true.
anthropologists lied for a long time but the bones were real.

 God is there, don't be scared homie.

What bones? And, it's usually the religious who "fear", not those who are not[1].

-Nam
 1. in concern to gods
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2012, 10:09:36 AM »
well something somewhere must be true.

It's true that you falsely accused Jetson of lying.

anthropologists lied for a long time but the bones were real.

Theist have lied for a long time and still lie today. Are you going to give details on what anthropologists supposedly lied about, or are you too scared to tell us?

God was never there, don't be scared homie.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline Czar

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2012, 04:55:32 AM »
ya'll, I have things to do besides writing in here, relax and enjoy your soda.

 see they lied about a lot of things because of ambition of fame or perhaps rushing into conclusions feeding  hungry egoes.
  Looks like a lot of the theories of evolution were based on fabrication and exaggerations, however, now we know more about the origins of man: (???)
 Checko on this so I don't have to write it myself  http://scienceagainstevolution.info/v3i7f.htm (my cat is phasing on evolution and is trying to hunt the invisible)
 And let's not talk about to when some scientists got the great idea of using black people to represent the missing link or deciding that black people were unrelated to white people to justify some weird politics.
 A Quote from J. Hendricks "I knew you can't just take me out of that fight because the Lord blessed me with a good left hand"   Hendricks won "that" fight in 12 seconds with a nice left hook.  Hell yeah kicking ass in the name of the Lord!

Offline none

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2012, 05:04:33 AM »
ape like man is a hoax... I will give you that.
man is an ape... I will give you that.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #96 on: August 01, 2012, 06:05:32 AM »
ya'll, I have things to do besides writing in here, relax and enjoy your soda.....

And yet you found time to go off and accuse yet more people of lying, rather than apologise for your earlier unfounded accusation.

Do you not feel you should hold yourself to a standard of honesty before slinging mud at others?  What's the expression.....remove the beam in thy own eye?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Czar

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #97 on: August 01, 2012, 06:19:21 AM »
yes None! some likes to go ape crazy..lol

 the ladder or linear evolution of man from dumb to intelligent always had the same problem: No records of the transitions, it seems like man was always intelligent and came out of nowhere to transform this planet.
 No matter how long we waited, a monkey is always a monkey and no flying elephants yet (unless we drink a lot of jameson) the evolution of society now that's different.

 ...Now where is my bottle of Jameson?

 
 

Offline none

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #98 on: August 01, 2012, 06:28:31 AM »
yes None! some likes to go ape crazy..lol

 the ladder or linear evolution of man from dumb to intelligent always had the same problem: No records of the transitions, it seems like man was always intelligent and came out of nowhere to transform this planet.
 No matter how long we waited, a monkey is always a monkey and no flying elephants yet (unless we drink a lot of jameson) the evolution of society now that's different.

 ...Now where is my bottle of Jameson?
try a bottle of research.

Offline Czar

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2012, 06:43:46 AM »
why would I apologize for? he lied.
 There's no conclusive study that demostrate prayer doesn't work, all he gave me were links to find out what i already knew: The debate will never stop because neither one of the parts can prove anything conclusive. So go on and read forever about it.
 The other came with the blah blah of the evolution and all he knows is science from the 30s, now he is getting the news from me, and I'm late on them too but not so late.(more like 2000s) and the other came with the tribes in the jungle and I proved him wrong too but doesn't want to see it. Nice way to convince himself right, hahaha.
 wow guys, you just cannot be wrong? come on, just get on the now bus and inform yourselves of what is happening now. Soon, pr'bly in 5 years we will learn that men killed the dinos too.

 You know, I have no problem admitting I cannot show you god or how effective praying is but by my own experience and conjectures but I believe there is a god or something out there and prayer worked for me and for some people I know.
 why you guys are having a problem admitting that cannot show there is no god and how ineffective praying is and have to be so arrogant that have to deny facts when someone is showing you how wrong you are and how disinform you are and how you don't even know the half of what you think you knew?
 it wasn't my idea all those challenges! I just took them and is not my fault that these guys were just saying things without checking if there was any back up...no bullets, no my fault man.
 
 Ok, I will apologize if his feeling were hurt, but in any other case, I will not.

Offline jetson

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2012, 06:49:32 AM »
Please - you did not hurt my feelings at all.  But, you are completely failing to understand the point.  You seem to believe that if they can find no difference between prayer, and no-prayer, that prayer works.  Epic fail.

If prayer worked, it would be noticeable in studies.  Google this: scientific method


Offline Czar

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #101 on: August 01, 2012, 06:54:23 AM »
 A little help in the research: http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

 hey I thought everybody read that thing before entering this site about how not to be so delicate. Now i'm going to see iron man 2 ... Some science fiction to go back to sleep.

Offline Czar

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2012, 06:57:03 AM »
Nice to know that you are fine, Jetson, that's what I thought.

 Prayer worked for me, man. and it worked for my friend and for other people I know. I will check on that link, that's much more specific.

 Thanks

Offline none

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2012, 07:24:30 AM »
There's no conclusive study that demostrate prayer doesn't work

Wrong.  Here's just one:
http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html
(There have been a number of others as well.)  Of course, I can understand why you would be skeptical about the results of the study.  I mean, after all, the organization that performed it doesn't have any kind of a reputation in the medical community, or anything... *cough cough*

Quote
and the other came with the tribes in the jungle and I proved him wrong too but doesn't want to see it. Nice way to convince himself right, hahaha.

Here's how that conversation went, Reader's Digest version:

You:  Human beings don't live in the jungle anywhere!
Me:  Here's a list of a couple dozen or so tribes that do.
You:  That doesn't count!  They make huts!

Come on, for pete's sake.  You didn't "prove" anything with that response, that's just a really, really silly word game.  It would be like saying that Eskimos don't live in the Arctic because they make igloos.

Quote
wow guys, you just cannot be wrong?

Physician, heal thyself.

Quote
come on, just get on the now bus and inform yourselves of what is happening now.

Redux.

Quote
Soon, pr'bly in 5 years we will learn that men killed the dinos too.

Are you a poe?

Quote
why you guys are having a problem admitting that cannot show there is no god

Please familiarize yourself with the concept of "burden of proof".
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online Nam

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2012, 09:10:39 AM »
yes None! some likes to go ape crazy..lol

 the ladder or linear evolution of man from dumb to intelligent always had the same problem: No records of the transitions, it seems like man was always intelligent and came out of nowhere to transform this planet.
 No matter how long we waited, a monkey is always a monkey and no flying elephants yet (unless we drink a lot of jameson) the evolution of society now that's different.

 ...Now where is my bottle of Jameson?

 
 

You said you are 17, no? Do you find it godly to break the law? Or drink at such a young age?
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2012, 11:19:25 AM »
yes None! some likes to go ape crazy..lol

 the ladder or linear evolution of man from dumb to intelligent always had the same problem: No records of the transitions,

Facepalm.. again.


retraction please.
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2012, 11:32:18 AM »
I'm quite sure there will always be people who claim that prayer to their god of choice works.  After all, it worked for them (or some other people they know, sometimes both), so it must be real.  The problem is that they're not noticing the much higher number of people for whom it doesn't work.  This is like claiming that some god must favor a person because they won big at gambling, and ignoring the far greater number of people who don't win at gambling.

Statistics and random chance explain both; the supposition of a deity explains neither.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2012, 11:39:21 AM »


Because I know some people will be curious and want to research these skulls:

•(A) Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
•(B) Australopithecus africanus, 2.6 million years
•(C) Australopithecus africanus, 2.5 million years
•(D) Homo habilis, 1.9 million years
•(E) Homo habilis, 1.8 million years
•(F) Homo rudolfensis, 1.8 million years
•(G) Homo erectus, 1.75 million years
•(H) Homo ergaster (early H. erectus), 1.75 million years
•(I) Homo heidelbergensis, "Rhodesia man," 300,000 - 125,000 years
•(J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, 70,000 years
•(K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 years
•(L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 years
•(M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 years
•(N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #109 on: August 01, 2012, 04:47:42 PM »
why would I apologize for? he lied.

You really like posting lies, don't you boy?

wow guys, you just cannot be wrong?

When the evidence overwhelmingly supports us, of course not. You'd have to be pretty stupid to deny the evidence people here have presented to you.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #110 on: August 02, 2012, 05:24:33 AM »
Prayer worked for me, man. and it worked for my friend and for other people I know.


Oh dear - you really DON'T understand what we are saying, do you?

To be very clear: you prayed, and subsequently you got better.  Nobody is denying that.

But you have gone from "I prayed, then I got better", to "I prayed, therefore I got better" - without producing any evidence, or (apparently) devoting any consideration to the question at all.

Here are some alternative hypotheses for you to consider:
1) You ate a piece of chocolate, therefore you got better.
2) You clapped your hands three times,  therefore you got better.
3) You watched exactly 12 episodes of The Simpsons, therefore you got better.

It's extremely easy to make any of these claims.  But fortunately, we can construct experiments to try to determine whether a link can be found between the alleged cause, and the observed effect.

There has been NO study that shows any difference between the effect of praying, or not praying, on healing.

It doesn't matter how much you continue to assert "I got better 'cos I done prayed!", because that unevidenced statement has no way of being proven true.  Indeed, we can point to several studies that show it is more likely NOT to be true....since every study concludes there is no link between prayer and healing.

Question: you said that "There's no conclusive study that demostrate prayer doesn't work".  Presumably you feel that studies that show no difference between praying and not praying don't fir that bill.  So I'll ask you directly: what would you expect a study "that demonstrates prayer doesn't work" would look like, results-wise?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline ButterFlavoredPam

Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #111 on: August 02, 2012, 07:12:58 PM »
So I'll ask you directly: what would you expect a study "that demonstrates prayer doesn't work" would look like, results-wise?

BM - I hope he tries to answer this.
“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.”
 Heinrich Heine

Offline kin hell

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #112 on: August 02, 2012, 11:40:47 PM »
A little help in the research: http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

 hey I thought everybody read that thing before entering this site about how not to be so delicate. Now i'm going to see iron man 2 ... Some science fiction to go back to sleep.

ironman 2 is completely redundant regarding science fiction in your case.

look at your beliefs.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 11:46:13 PM by kin hell »
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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline fasi345

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #113 on: August 04, 2012, 04:04:18 PM »
marriage success = number of prayers
is completely wrong,there may be many other reasons may be the society act of freedom of relationship which brought a vast range of choices so that people may get confused even for their marriage issues

Online Nam

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2012, 06:41:38 PM »
So, is Czar coming back, or the OP or...

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline none

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Re: Prayer doesn't work
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2012, 06:50:08 PM »
So, is Czar coming back, or the OP or...

-Nam
really... WE NEED ANSWERS..?.? or to be gentle... what do we need?