The Frank Thread

[HAL]

In this thread I would like to ask Frank some questions. Specifically and first, how he came to hate The United States so much. How long has he had this attitude. What caused it? Was it a single event or several things?

That's enough to start off with.

[Nick]

I really don't see why you perceive a problem with Frank.  I think his responses have been reasonable.  The US has always put itself several pegs above everyone else.  That exceptional thing repubs like to talk about.  If I were from another country I think Id be a little tired of it myself.  We have no business trying to be the policeman of the world and wanting everybody else to kiss our feet and asses.

[HAL]

I really don't see why you perceive a problem with Frank.  I think his responses have been reasonable.  The US has always put itself several pegs above everyone else.  That exceptional thing repubs like to talk about.  If I were from another country I think Id be a little tired of it myself.  We have no business trying to be the policeman of the world and wanting everybody else to kiss our feet and asses.

Are you Frank's spokesperson?

[Nick]

No, I thought it was a thread to talk about Frank.  If not, I wont.

[HAL]

No, I thought it was a thread to talk about Frank.  If not, I wont.

Frank hasn't said anything yet, he hasn't even attempted an answer. It seems though you have the same attitude as he does about the u.S. Do you hate the U.S.? Perhaps I can add you to the thread title?

[Seppuku]

As annoying as it can sometimes be, I think Frank does make fair points about the issues and isn't blindly passing insults or anything like that. Arguably there are likely many Americans who would agree with some of the problems Frank points out. But it doesn't generally come off as wanting to put the US down most of the time. Generally these issues have me sympathetic of the decent Americans out there, because they have to deal with the crap of their country first hand. I mean dude, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Ted Haggard, Ken Hovind, Banana Man, Banana Man's bum boy, George W Bush Jr.

Of course, you're welcome to feel sorry right back at us, because our government fucking sucks, our crime is pitiful and there's many problems here. But I would find it annoying if HAL kept making attacks at the UK - no matter how true they were, which is probably why he does it everytime Frank does it to the US. I would kinda hope he'd cut us some slack and give it a rest. Many criticisms HAL has placed, though, I think have been fairly valid.

I am curious as to why he specifically targets the US. There's reasons I can think of as to why somebody might, some of which Nick has pointed out. One I can add is the attitude that: "we are the greatest nation on the planet" and the attitude if you criticise the country you suddenly "hate the US". Maybe Frank doesn't hate the US, but is pissed off by many issues in the US.


Okay, I am not Frank's spoke person here either. But it's my 2 pence, for what it's worth.

[Nick]

If supporting dictators, experimenting on humans in South America, going to war against countries that have done nothing to us, using the majority of the Earths resources, fighting climate change, torturing people, treating  our allies like second rate children, putting more people in jail than any other country in the world, the death penalty,  and on and on and on. If that is hating the country then I guess you can add me to the list.

I'm saying if I had a kid at this time I would not allow him to join the military and fight for this country so 1%ters can get richer at the expense of the rest of us.  Their kids don't fight.  They abuse the system.  Romney's 5 boys would never see combat.

We do some things right but they are getting fewer and fewer.

So there.  You can chew on that.

[HAL]

Why nick - I never knew. And after all this time.

This thread should prove to be more interesting than I first thought, even if Frank never posts.

But Nick you didn't answer my question - do you hate the U.S as Frank does?

[HAL]

I am curious as to why he specifically targets the US.

Me too. I mean we've got a dictatorship in China. We've got Syria committing war crimes against it's own people. Russia is totally fucked up. North Korea can't feed it's own people but can afford nukes and Disney character shows for it's dear leaders. And I've shown fairly the U.K. hasn't got it's act together either in a number of areas.

Why does Franky always bitch about the U.S.? And now friend Nick as well! Oh dear what is going on! 

[Timtheskeptic]

I don't hate the US, but i'm not going to blindly run around saying stuff like, "I'm proud to be an american!" or "This is the american way..." Because i see America with a lot of issues it is ignoring. They have a lot of problems they're not dealing with and they're focusing on things that don't concern them. The reason i don't hate it is because no country is perfect and US can be repaired if we start standing our two legs and focus on the real issues and find solutions to it.

[HAL]

Because i see America with a lot of issues it is ignoring. They have a lot of problems they're not dealing with and they're focusing on things that don't concern them.

Is that true of any other countries?

[Timtheskeptic]

Because i see America with a lot of issues it is ignoring. They have a lot of problems they're not dealing with and they're focusing on things that don't concern them.

Is that true of any other countries?

It is true of all copuntries. I never said otherwise. I'm simply pointing out that America is not Number one, it's not the greatest and it's not better than any other country in the world.

[HAL]

It is true of all copuntries.

Well it's too bad Frank won't address this thread. After all, I'm interested in why he bashes the U.S. given all the other fucked-up countries there are. Nobody can speak for him here.

[on:bread:alone]

i won't get too into this, predominantly because my political beliefs tend to point more towards that happy place between nihilism and totalitarian fascism... which i could largely attribute to my contempt towards the current cultural state of affairs here in america. but i will say this:

i love the ideas and principles upon which this country was founded. i love that we sought to escape tyranny and religious persecution, and that we actually took the initiative to do something about it. i love that air of revolution, and frankly, i'd like to see a return to that sort of passion.

but it never lasts. ultimate power corrupts ultimately. even in seceding from the tyranny overseas, we tyrannized the natives here. we raped, we stole, and we murdered in teh name of god. all that revolution, it's all for naught... because we've grown to be the bad guys. we're the axis power. we're the nazis. we run around trying to police the globe and get involved with everyone else's affairs, and meanwhile we're too busy to clean up the shit in our own backyard.

and we're not the only fuck-ups by any means. there are certainly places in the world that are considerably worse-off. but whereas once upon a time we were this great nation that sought to help those less fortunate, now we're seemingly only interested in finding creative and profitable means to exploit them, subdue them, and otherwise bully them into subseviance, all the while masqurading under the pretense of peace. it's disgusting.

[nogodsforme]

I love America. It's my favorite country. Whenever I travel or live overseas I am so glad to be back. I have a flag that I display proudly on flag holidays. I am in a choir that sings America the Beautiful at public events. I love our food, our culture, our diversity and acceptance of eccentricity. I love the Grand Canyon. I love our positive outlook and can-do attitude. I love our energy and creativity. I love our freedom. I would not want to live anywhere else.

I also love Americans, so I want them to be able to go to the doctor without fear of losing their homes. I want Americans to be able to travel to other countries without being hated because of some terrible policy that does not even benefit us. I want Americans to be able to go to college without sacrificing their futures with debt. I don't want Americans to die in pointless wars. I want all Americans to be able to vote without a lot of hassles put in their way.[1]

But I don't think the US is objectively the best place on the planet. France has better health care for its people. Asian countries take better care of their elderly. Europe is more rational on guns, sex ed, drugs and crime. Congo is the most beautiful country I have ever seen. South Africa and Australia have bravely faced their racial problems in ways that we can't even talk about yet. And people in Latin America are the friendliest and most generous anywhere. 

Just like I love my house, but I know that Bill Gates has a nicer one. I know we have problems, like any country. And we should be willing to look at countries that do some things better so we can learn from them. Just like we expect other countries to learn from us.

Since I love my country, flaws and all, I realize that other people love their countries, flaws and all, too. Just like I would defend my country from attack, other people will defend their country from attack. I would never want China or Russia or North Korea to put a military base in my country. So, I understand why other people are not crazy about us having military bases in their countries. We don't want other countries taking our resources, so they don't like it when we take theirs.

And just like we don't want any other country pushing us around and telling us what to do, other countries don't like it when we do it. How would we feel if China bombed our major cities, killed hundreds of people, and forced our elected president to flee into exile? The same way people in Guatemala, Iran and Congo felt when we did it to them.

We won't be the world's superpower forever, and we will have to learn how to live in a world where we can't use up 25% of the world's resources with only 4% of the world's population. Because I love America. And I want it to be around for a long, long time.

What was that about Frank again?

1.	How can someone claim to "love America" if they don't care about their fellow Americans? What do they love-- the map? the ground? the shape of the country on the globe?

[Barracuda]

HAL I'm not all that familiar with Frank so I don't know much about his views, but I don't exactly get a chubby in my pants every time I hear the national anthem or pledge either. It's a piece of land that I happened to have been born on, no reason imo to be a nationalist. Yes, we all know every country has problems, but I think there is a difference in degree between US and other nations. I also really doubt we have a significant China/North Korea membership represented here so it doesn't surprise my that it wouldn't get criticized as much. America's fucked-up-ness is just much more apparent to me because I live here.

[The Gawd]

I dont hate this place, I do have certain contempts though and I would never fight for the country unless my family was being threatened. I'd take the Ali route if ever put in that position. Why? Most all the reasons have already been expressed. No, I dont know how other countries are in comparison, but I do know how America compares to its rhetoric, and I'd consider the rhetoric to describe a totally different country.

[LoriPinkAngel]

.[1]

1.	How can someone claim to "love America" if they don't care about their fellow Americans? What do they love-- the map? the ground? the shape of the country on the globe?

I think we don't take care of our own -- the homeless, the mentally ill, the veterans, the elderly.  Healthcare & education costs are out of control.  Crime rates and gang violence continue to increase in our cities.  But we send aid to other countries and police the rest of the world.  The powers that be should listen when the flight attendent says "put on your own oxygen mask before trying to help those around you"  How much stronger would we be if we cleaned up our own house?

[nogodsforme]

.[1]

1.	How can someone claim to "love America" if they don't care about their fellow Americans? What do they love-- the map? the ground? the shape of the country on the globe?

I think we don't take care of our own -- the homeless, the mentally ill, the veterans, the elderly.  Healthcare & education costs are out of control.  Crime rates and gang violence continue to increase in our cities.  But we send aid to other countries and police the rest of the world.  The powers that be should listen when the flight attendent says "put on your own oxygen mask before trying to help those around you"  How much stronger would we be if we cleaned up our own house?

I agree, except for one thing. We don't send that much aid to other countries, less than 1% of the federal budget, and most of what we do send is strategic, ie for our own benefit. Supposedly. Although what we get in return for our 3 billion bucks to Israel every year I have no idea. I'd rather try to help some poor people get access to water.

[Seppuku]

Yes, generally I think you should fix your own country before you try to fix others (I suspect HAL will try to raise a point here to throw at Frank). I think in this respect America loses friends. Love how when tax money goes to fund war (and supposedly *solve* the problems in foreign countries) it's liberty but when it goes to fund helping people in your own country it's communism. This seems to be the republican attitude around there, not necessarily representative of all types of republicans, but certainly the ignorant ones and unfortunately, it's ignorant ones who run for election. I am sure there's ignorant liberals to boot, it seems you guys do suffer from a big mess. I'd hate to have some of the problems you do. I would hate for there to a be a bible belt in the UK, to be honest, I didn't even know atheists were discriminated against until I started talking to Americans. I've always been very open about my disbelief and it has never bothered anyone, except the odd street preacher looking to convert people, but he'd have a problem anyway unless you were already a member of his sect, so I never thought anything of it.

But I can give you a positive point on the side of politics, your liberals have a spine. Ours are yes men. You'd think with having a coalition of Conservative and Liberals would have them opposing each other (it seems when they do, it seem to be to keep appearances up[1]). When liberals got into power with the Conservatives they pretty much threw their manifesto away and said, "do you have milk with your tea?" Okay, your conservatives can be pretty ignorant and I suspect if you guys had a coalition government you'd have your own problems, but at least if you're going to put your votes to the liberals, you know they're not going to spineless. I voted liberal and regretted it. In fact, given the top 3 parties have let me down (Conservatives, Labour and Liberals) I'm not sure who I'm even going to vote for in the future.

Anyway, if Americans have one thing going for this it's the fact they can pronounce my fucking name. It's very rare for a Brit to read my name off of a piece of paper and get it right, heck last week my doctor called me 'Bryan'. For Christ sakes, Wales is only next door. Americans, never spoken to a single one who gets it wrong. The guy who called from the bank this morning? American. Did he get my name right? Of course! The guy from a couple of weeks before? Indian, kept calling me Bryan, even AFTER I corrected him. See, we call you guys stupid, but at least you're smart enough to realise the name 'Bryn' doesn't have a fucking 'a' in it. And I did get called Beatrice once, seriously WTF?

1.	Nick Clegg infamously left his mic on after a debate, he basically turned to David Cameron admitting there was nothing they actually disagreed on

[HAL]

Remember what my OP was -

In this thread I would like to ask Frank some questions. Specifically and first, how he came to hate The United States so much. How long has he had this attitude. What caused it? Was it a single event or several things?

I didn't say he should stop or it was against a rule, I just want to understand why he constantly bashes the U.S. Like others have said there's some fucked up shit going on in several countries, I would venture to say some of it's worse than what the U.S. is doing or has done. It's easy to bash any country, I did it a while back to the U.K. just to show him how easy it is to bash any country you want to. I could have done it with any country I bet. I came up with ten or fifteen stories very easily showing problems in the U.K. I mean the U.K. has run roughshod over lots of places all over the world. They've even been involved in the Iraq and Afgan wars with us.

How come he never criticizes, for example, the Syrian government for war crimes? Or the Chinese government for censorship. Or his own government. It just seems he has some deep-seated hatred for one country. I just want to know why. And nobody can answer these questions but Frank.

[Ambassador Pony]

Frank, when you were young, did an american touch you in your special area? Show us on a doll.

[Death over Life]

Sorry to stray the thread, but 1 comment I wish to address. May or may not have to do with Frank.

But I can give you a positive point on the side of politics, your liberals have a spine. Ours are yes men.

As much as I’m loving liberals atm, I strongly disagree. The people in our government who have the spine are the Tea Baggers. Liberals aren’t necessarily yes men, but every single time I see a government action taken to affect the American people, it’s always the Liberals/Democrats who compromise themselves, never the Repubs/Tea Party. The right side saw a want/demand to change our government into a direction that it should not be heading to, but they saw it never the less, and are hell-bent on making it happen.

At best, our liberals/Democrats atm are Moderates/today’s Republicans and today’s Republican Party are far right bat-shit crazy fucks. They however, have a spine. In dealing with Barack Obama, I initially wasn’t happy with his Presidency. I didn’t even like him and when he had the govt. in his hands, other than healthcare, stimulus package, cash for clunkers, and cap-and-trade, what did he really do for helping the economy? Not really anything. Obama initially portrayed himself as just another guy who was just there in the office, not doing anything. It wasn’t until the GOP House that took over did it light a fire under Obama, and now Obama is being a President. The problem is, because it wasn’t until after 2 years of his Presidency, did he decide to try and pass what he should have tried passing in his first 2 years, and would have passed.

The point is, as much I hate to say it, the Democrats need the Tea Party in order to function. If nobody lights a fire under their ass, the Democrats do nothing. The Tea Party however, have an agenda, and they are going through with it no matter what. This alone shows me the Dems/Liberals have no spine, and the GOP/Tea Party have the spine.

If the Democrats/Liberals had a spine, we would have been far better off with Obama’s Presidency than we are now. All these arguments that we have now, would have been solved years ago had the Dems have a spine. At least on the plus side, since the Tea Party GOP have shaken things up, they lit a fire under Obama, and forced Obama to grow a spine, in which he did, and now Obama has strong momentum because he’s doing something for bettering everybody (except the 1%). What needs to be made sure of is that he’s re-elected, but without the GOP, he still has a fire under his ass that’s making him grow a spine and do something with his Presidency. He’s got the momentum right now, he just needs to make sure he keeps it going without needing the GOP to do so.

[Seppuku]

Liberals aren’t necessarily yes men, but every single time I see a government action taken to affect the American people, it’s always the Liberals/Democrats who compromise themselves, never the Repubs/Tea Party.

To my mind compromise can be a good thing and doesn't necessarily mean you're lacking a spine, it's about coming to an agreement to try and make both sides happy and moving forward. I don't know if that so much applies to your democrats, but I think even having the ability to compromise takes some back bone. Sometimes it can be easier to be so sure you're right than to actually analyse them and accept criticism. I think it's a question of whether you're compromising because you're unwilling to stand up for what you believe or if you're willing to compromise because you want what's best for everyone. The tea-baggers I feel may fight tooth and nail and stand up for their beliefs, but of course their beliefs are ignorant and aren't in the best interest of everyone and they're more interested in getting their own way. Of course, you can respect their determination and conviction because it takes a strong spine and courage to do that, but hard to respect what they stand for and their unwillingness to listen or consider any alternative views.

The point is, as much I hate to say it, the Democrats need the Tea Party in order to function. If nobody lights a fire under their ass, the Democrats do nothing. The Tea Party however, have an agenda, and they are going through with it no matter what. This alone shows me the Dems/Liberals have no spine, and the GOP/Tea Party have the spine.

I certainly think both sides do need the scrutiny and to be held to account. Kinda like we do here. I feel when it comes to politics and political parties, each party should have the country's best interest in concern and not worry about party politics or 'winning' votes, but come to the best possible agreements on any situation, if you disagree with a policy, stand in opposition, if you hold a manifesto, stick to it. If compromise is needed, make it. I think the scrutiny and accountability is best fueled by the media, ideally the media would be non-partisan and would scrutinise either side equally so: 1) it's fair 2) people are capable of making up their own minds about politics. Not have this liberal vs conservative media war. Granted it'd be difficult for a station to not display their political views, but I figure the best thing to do there is to separate news and opinion. Blogs and opinion hours are great places to voice an opinion.

Unfortunately, to me that's an ideal world and not one that is a foreseeable reality, not necessarily unrealistic or impractical, but many people are unwilling to change, like Fox News for instance, after much open criticism and having much of what they come out with debunked, they still deliver the same crap. Heck, the Murdoch empire is crooked, if it weren't, we wouldn't even have the Leveson enquiry here in the UK.


However, the note on Obama, I don't think he's the strongest democrat out there and I think you're right about the tea party. The fire gave him more of a push. I think Clinton was a stronger president (at least from my perspective), but he had to have his little affair. Funnily enough our Prime Minister of that time also had an affair, there must have been something in air.

[Frank]

It is true of all countries.

Well it's too bad Frank won't address this thread. After all, I'm interested in why he bashes the U.S. given all the other fucked-up countries there are. Nobody can speak for him here.

I do have a life beyond this forum. You know sleep, earning a living, that kind of thing. What's it say in you sig? "Don't bother me" Well it would appear that I certainly bother you. My own personal thread. An honour indeed.

You appear to have become very tetchy recently. Post less and you'll fret less especially about me.

I don't hate America. Look at my posts. I don't criticise America. I criticise stupidity, It is stupid not to have universal heathcare when you could easily afford it. It is stupid to allow a population almost unfettered access to powerful weapons as recent events have proven. BTW who's going to pay the medical bills for the wounded? Talk about adding insult to injury. You see all I do is point out the brazen hypocrisy. Stuck with huge bills because they survived a murder attempt. Our prayers are with them but they have to pay their own bills.

It's this Lassie fayre attitude that drives me nuts. Look at the completely different reaction in Norway. No demands for more religion, more guns, and free healthcare for the wounded. The difference between a civilised reaction and an uncivilised one. That would be the reaction in any European country. Why can't America do that? You're supposed to be the leaders of the western world. The example that the rest of us are supposed to look up to but you are a constant disappointment. You could be so much more but this constant aversion to anything considered "socialist" will destroy you eventually.

I don't hate America. I just want Americans to have what I take for granted because I think it will give them better lives and by extension that would be better for the world in general. Now if that makes me anti American then so be it.

Now maybe from time to time I'm spikey. So what? Who wants to be the internet version of beige?. As least I get a reaction as this thread so amply proves.

[Graybeard]

In this thread I would like to ask Frank some questions. Specifically and first, how he came to hate The United States so much.

Apparently you are serious. Quite amazing. "My country, right or wrong." Stephen Decatur^Wiki

Yet you are not above trolling:

Worst of all there is always an upsurge of interest in these otherwise pointless pastimes after the games end, until the novelty wears off and people come to their senses again.

When does the novelty of kings and queens wear off?

[HAL]

Yet you are not above trolling:

Worst of all there is always an upsurge of interest in these otherwise pointless pastimes after the games end, until the novelty wears off and people come to their senses again.

When does the novelty of kings and queens wear off?

So Graybeard, when does the novelty of Kings and Queens wear off? How does it feel when the tables are turned eh? Not too good it seems. 

[HAL]

I don't hate America. Look at my posts. I don't criticise America. I criticise stupidity, ...

And on and on he goes ...

But you didn't really answer me Franky. Why America? Why not Syria, China, Russia, U.K., ... Why do you concentrate on the U.S.? I'm still mystified at your attention to America. Every country has problems, so that really can't be the answer as to why you bash America and no other country.

Like Pony said, -

Frank, when you were young, did an american touch you in your special area? Show us on a doll.

Something got your goat about America, and I still don't have an answer.

[Nick]

I don't think Frank has a goat.