Author Topic: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.  (Read 3506 times)

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Offline nicetie

Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2012, 01:28:20 AM »
On a side note... Holy S*** with the off topic posts lol

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2012, 03:24:50 AM »
The ethical considerations and consequences regarding the bus driver are too much for me to process.  So I simplify by personalizing it a bit. I would make the determination whether I would confront the driver about his actions.  If I'd rather not... I will not report it.  If I don't have the guts to confront someone about their actions, I feel it would be unseemly to report his actions without his knowledge. If I do nothing, I usually feel pretty bad, wishing I had the guts to confront, but I feel at least I haven't compounded my personal shame.

This is my own personal standard, not a comment on the actions of anyone else.  Where there are rationalizations involved, it may not be a good idea to judge others by one's own processes.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2012, 08:56:01 AM »
The question is, when are you supposed to confront a bus driver who's actually driving about distracted driving without contributing to more distracted driving?  Or, for that matter, getting in trouble yourself for being out of your seat.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2012, 09:06:14 AM »
The question is, when are you supposed to confront a bus driver who's actually driving about distracted driving without contributing to more distracted driving?  Or, for that matter, getting in trouble yourself for being out of your seat.

A side note to this that didn't occur to me until just now is that the transit authority here prohibits passengers from eating or drinking on the bus as well.  It would be kind of strange to argue that the driver should be allowed to eat if the passengers aren't.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2012, 09:19:27 AM »
A side note to this that didn't occur to me until just now is that the transit authority here prohibits passengers from eating or drinking on the bus as well.  It would be kind of strange to argue that the driver should be allowed to eat if the passengers aren't.
That's a good point, and it rather blows the "how dare you blow the whistle on this hard-working stiff just because he wanted a bite to eat" argument out of the water, does it not?

Offline HAL

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2012, 09:43:59 AM »
A side note to this that didn't occur to me until just now is that the transit authority here prohibits passengers from eating or drinking on the bus as well.  It would be kind of strange to argue that the driver should be allowed to eat if the passengers aren't.

Now, if the driver was futzing around with a gun, then Frank would have cheered you on.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2012, 04:05:16 PM »
A side note to this that didn't occur to me until just now is that the transit authority here prohibits passengers from eating or drinking on the bus as well.  It would be kind of strange to argue that the driver should be allowed to eat if the passengers aren't.

Now, if the driver was futzing around with a gun, then Frank would have cheered you on.
as long as he was an American.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2012, 05:23:54 PM »
If the bus driver had hit a pedestrian and killed them or crashed the bus into a car containing a family with 3 kids (where the kids don't live) as a result of his sandwich eating, this thread will have been turned into being about everything that is wrong with America.

Careless drivers are one of my pet hates, because we hear so many where a misjudgement has cost people their lives. If you're gonna be behind the wheel, don't take risks. Imagine the guy trying to explain to the police why his bus crushed into a smaller car and killed the kids sitting in the back, I am sure for him, that's a lot worse than losing a job, assuming he has a conscience.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2012, 05:26:16 PM »
as long as he was an American.

I can't stand it anymore - I just started a new thread on the Chatter board in which I wish to discover why and where this hatred of the United States came from in Frank's life. I hope he will indulge us.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2012, 08:24:38 AM »
.....unless the employer was an unspeakably unreasonable asshole who fires people on the first offence, he probably had previous issues on the job.

Not necessarily.  Many companies will have immediate dismissal for Gross Misconduct in their T&Cs.  It may well be that an offence that was (a) a serious health and safety risk to himself and passengers, and (b) having a negative impact on the company's image, could well be a Gross Misconduct offence.

Buses, BTW, are quite huge and heavy vehicles.  They take a lot of effort to stop, especially suddenly - and a sudden stop will itself endanger the passengers on board: buses tend not to have seatbelts.  Drivers need to be a lot more aware of what is going on around them so they can (if you like) pre-act to situations rather than re-act.  A driver concerned with the chips he is eating (or what about when he momentarily chokes on one?) is not paying attention to the road.  And a driver who isn't paying full attention will both be more likely to involve the bus in an accident (through slower reaction) as well as more likely to injure his passengers.

When you drive a bus, or a train, or a plane.....when you doa host of other things....you are taking direct responsibility for the people in your charge, as well as the people around you that may come into contact.  I don't think its TOO much to ask that someone who takes on that responsibility takes it seriously.

There may well be issues around WHY the driver felt his only option was to eat his lunch while moving.  Perhaps the company was itself ignoring prescribed rest breaks?  But if so, then the driver should have no problems winning his case in court.  But if his case is "well, I was eating in charge of a heavy moving vehicle with several unsecured passengers in direct contravention of my employment".....well, explain again why I should agree he has been hard done by?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2012, 08:59:17 AM »
A driver concerned with the chips he is eating (or what about when he momentarily chokes on one?)

That didn't even occur to me... also a good point.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Boots

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2012, 02:16:49 PM »
Personally, while I'd be affronted just as the OP was, I'd *love* for someone to prolesthetyze to me with a Chick track.  The guy's a total loony.  His hating on Dungeons and Dragons is freakin' hilarious--except that people actually *believe* the tripe he polluted perfectly presentable paper with (hah!  Aliteration Man!!).
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2012, 02:21:16 PM »
Personally, while I'd be affronted just as the OP was, I'd *love* for someone to prolesthetyze to me with a Chick track.  The guy's a total loony.  His hating on Dungeons and Dragons is freakin' hilarious--except that people actually *believe* the tripe he polluted perfectly presentable paper with (hah!  Aliteration Man!!).

I pulled out my Players Manuel and put it in there going "Cool Bookmark!" and walked off as they stared slack jawed.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2012, 02:25:38 AM »
Last night I made a late-night stop at a gas station to buy some snacks. When I paid the cashier, he tried to hand me one of those "chick" tracts... I told him no thanks, I'm an atheist.
My question is this: are people allowed to do that? If I were the owner of the gas station, I would have either written him up or given him a verbal counseling because I'm not paying him to proselytize, just do his damn job. Idk it just kinda struck me as an audacious thing to do... Discuss!


And back to the OP......

Hum.  I'm so used to being offered unwanted stuff at the till that I'm just on auto-refuse now, whether its "fries with that", or "half-price chocolate" or whatever.  I don't think that the fact that this particular unwanted item happens to be religious would worry me any more than if he was trying to sell me a can of oil, or giving me a flyer for his band or boot sale. 

Maybe if he starts really proselytising it and its holding up the queues I'd complain, but if it was just "want a leaflet" - "nope", then I wouldn't make any more of an issue of it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Timo

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2012, 02:54:43 AM »
I have been a working man for the last 40 years of my life and I've never snitched on another working man.

My dude, I have literally been riding mass transit since before I was born.  I was just talking to my moms about punk motherfuckers not giving up their seat when she was very pregnant with me and trying to sit down.  I couldn't help but think of that when I was going through this thread.  Alright now picture this.  You've got a pregnant woman, a very pregnant woman on a crowded bus.  She has to stand and hold the rail because, for whatever reason, young dudes think thought that they shouldn't have to give their seat to a pregnant woman.  Now imagine a slightly distracted driver has to, say, stop more suddenly than he would otherwise because he was looking down at his potato chips instead of the car ahead of him that stopped short.  The very pregnant, very tired woman standing in the front loses her balance and falls over on her protruding stomach.  She miscarries.  No Timo.  That doesn't strike me as all that outlandish a scenario.  But maybe that's just my imagination running away with me or some shit.

Anyway, I don't think that this specific discussion is off topic.  Whatever action you might take to try to register your dissatisfaction with someone trying to proselytize you while you're getting gas or whatever is an action that might put someone out of work and thus push a family into poverty, or further into poverty.  I think the fact that Frank thinks about that kind of thing is a very very good thing because a lot of people don't.  A lot of us dislike our jobs.  And we should take that into account and empathize with the folks that we deal with that don't like theirs.  All that said, I'm not saying that you shouldn't file complaints.  I'm just saying that I think Frank's right in that we should grapple with the question seriously.


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Offline lomolo

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2012, 03:21:07 AM »


Yikes!

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2012, 03:30:08 AM »
Anyway, I don't think that this specific discussion is off topic.  Whatever action you might take to try to register your dissatisfaction with someone trying to proselytize you while you're getting gas or whatever is an action that might put someone out of work and thus push a family into poverty, or further into poverty.  ..... we should take that into account and empathize with the folks that we deal with that don't like theirs.  All that said, I'm not saying that you shouldn't file complaints.  I'm just saying that I think Frank's right in that we should grapple with the question seriously.

Yup yup yup.

The bus drivers actions could easily cause serious injury to the people in his charge.  The chick leaflet teller will cause some slight annoyance.  Complaining about either COULD lead to them losing their jobs....and hence on the sliding scale I'd complain about the driver, but not the cashier.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Quesi

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2012, 08:02:50 AM »

I think the fact that Frank thinks about that kind of thing is a very very good thing because a lot of people don't.  A lot of us dislike our jobs.  And we should take that into account and empathize with the folks that we deal with that don't like theirs.  All that said, I'm not saying that you shouldn't file complaints.  I'm just saying that I think Frank's right in that we should grapple with the question seriously.


I just wanted to point out that both Pianodwarf and Frank are taking very strong stances based on their concern for the well-being of others. 

Pianodwarf is motivated by concern for the safety of innocent pedestrians, drivers sharing the street with the bus, and the bus passengers themselves. 

Frank is motivated by concern for the both the individual bus driver, who lost a shitty job, and whose life was probably thrown into turmoil, as well as the huge percentage of invisible, disposable  human beings who trudge away at shitty jobs where they receive neither respect nor adequate wages.

I have respect for both stances.  Both Frank and Pianodwarf embrace worldviews in which the welfare of others is paramount, and is the motivating force behind their actions.   

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2012, 08:07:06 AM »
I just wanted to point out that both Pianodwarf and Frank are taking very strong stances based on their concern for the well-being of others. 

Pianodwarf is motivated by concern for the safety of innocent pedestrians, drivers sharing the street with the bus, and the bus passengers themselves. 

Frank is motivated by concern for the both the individual bus driver, who lost a shitty job, and whose life was probably thrown into turmoil, as well as the huge percentage of invisible, disposable  human beings who trudge away at shitty jobs where they receive neither respect nor adequate wages.

I have respect for both stances.  Both Frank and Pianodwarf embrace worldviews in which the welfare of others is paramount, and is the motivating force behind their actions.

No need to be so reasonable about it.  ;)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2012, 08:11:40 AM »
Last night I made a late-night stop at a gas station to buy some snacks. When I paid the cashier, he tried to hand me one of those "chick" tracts... I told him no thanks, I'm an atheist.
My question is this: are people allowed to do that? If I were the owner of the gas station, I would have either written him up or given him a verbal counseling because I'm not paying him to proselytize, just do his damn job. Idk it just kinda struck me as an audacious thing to do... Discuss!

There was an incident at my parents house when I was 16, me and my brother got into aviolent fight, and my sister called the police. My brother bailed (he had a car, I didn't) and the police escorted me to the nearest hotel for me to stay the night (that or jail). On the way the police officer asked me, "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour?". I forget how I responded but I do remember thinking: is it his job as a police officer to ask such a question, and how does one respond?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2012, 08:16:12 AM »
.....the huge percentage of invisible, disposable  human beings who trudge away at shitty jobs where they receive neither respect nor adequate wages.....

True enough.  Its why I get so infuriated by the number of people who are so strongly opposed to unions - especially when the depth of their compassion is revealed with a "if you don't like your job, quit"!  Same as I get incensed by governments that are happy to keep wages low, and to reduce health & safety legislation.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Quesi

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2012, 08:20:47 AM »
I just wanted to point out that both Pianodwarf and Frank are taking very strong stances based on their concern for the well-being of others. 

Pianodwarf is motivated by concern for the safety of innocent pedestrians, drivers sharing the street with the bus, and the bus passengers themselves. 

Frank is motivated by concern for the both the individual bus driver, who lost a shitty job, and whose life was probably thrown into turmoil, as well as the huge percentage of invisible, disposable  human beings who trudge away at shitty jobs where they receive neither respect nor adequate wages.

I have respect for both stances.  Both Frank and Pianodwarf embrace worldviews in which the welfare of others is paramount, and is the motivating force behind their actions.

No need to be so reasonable about it.  ;)


Yeah.  Just another example of godless heathens making up their own moral systems to suit their own selfish desires. 

If you two embraced the Lord Jesus Christ, (or Allah, or Quetzalcoatl or Vishnu), I suspect that you would not face this ambiguity. 

Any resident theists interested in weighing in and directing these selfish heathens in the righteous direction?  There must be a very clear answer in somebody's scriptures.  I mean, all moral guidance has already been provided by god for those who seek it. 

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2012, 08:23:07 AM »
On the way the police officer asked me, "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour?". I forget how I responded but I do remember thinking: is it his job as a police officer to ask such a question, and how does one respond?

This is a tough one, no question.

On the one hand, no, it's not his job, and in theory, police are supposed to enforce the law without regard to such things.  In practice, they very often don't -- are you familiar with David Mills' story about when he planned to protest a religious march?  If not, you should definitely look it up -- and they also have broad discretion on whether to arrest you and have you booked.  In some situations, such as for crowd control, the police will arrest people simply to break up the crowd, even though they know full well that the person they're busting didn't do anything wrong and will be released in a day or two without being charged.

I'm not normally a big fan of compromising one's principles, but when you're dealing with someone who can lock you up, beat you up, or even kill you with relative impunity, it's probably the better choice.  The "out" you have on this is that it's not against the law to lie to a cop (except for feds, but that's a separate discussion), so if you do choose to compromise your principles in such a case and tell the cop you're a Christian, you're safe at least from a legal standpoint.

It's hard to say, so much so that you might want to ask an attorney about it.  I'm not one (and so this is not legal advice), but a good friend of mine just finished his JD and has been admitted to the bar, and his general advice is just to say, "On advice of my attorney, I don't talk to law enforcement officers."  I'm not sure what kind of reaction you would get to that, though... I can see a cop getting annoyed by that and deciding to get tough on you.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Boots

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2012, 08:26:18 AM »
I have respect for both stances.  Both Frank and Pianodwarf embrace worldviews in which the welfare of others is paramount, and is the motivating force behind their actions.

I have to say, though, that while I can respect the principle of Frank's stance as you've voiced it above, I take issue with Frank's propensity to blame pianodwarf for the loss of the busdriver's job.

One of my pet peeves is this culture we (at least, that I'm aware of in the USA) have re: "protecting each other" even when it's not deserved.  Example: I have a lot of respect for police officers in general (and I'm friends with several), but when I heard about a particular junior . . crap, what's it called again??  high-school age kids pre-training for the police.  Anyway, these impressionable youngsters were spoken to by the chief of a particular town, who said in these words "You will *never* bust another cop for DWI."  Meaning, regardless of whether they commit the offense, cops don't bust other cops for DWI.  (note: the person who told me this is, in fact, known for lying absurdly, but other similar anecdotes support this, I won't get into them here unless requested)

I'm sorry, but if your job is to enforce the law and protect me, I expect *at least* the same standard of law that's applied to me, to be applied to YOU--if not moreso, because you should be setting the example!  That Ol' Boyz attitude irks me to no end...

...Just as Frank's posts in this thread, where he rails against pianodwarf for squealing on someone WHO DESERVED TO BE SQUEALED UPON.  If the poor, hapless working schmuck needs the job enough, he should be taking it seriously enough to follow the safety rules set in place regardless of how inconvenient they are--otherwise, he should not be performing that function.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2012, 08:27:57 AM »

There was an incident at my parents house when I was 16, me and my brother got into aviolent fight, and my sister called the police. My brother bailed (he had a car, I didn't) and the police escorted me to the nearest hotel for me to stay the night (that or jail). On the way the police officer asked me, "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour?". I forget how I responded but I do remember thinking: is it his job as a police officer to ask such a question, and how does one respond?


Cops are public servants, paid by your tax dollars and mine.  They are free to worship as they wish, and to share their beliefs with others as they see fit. 

But not during the hours that I am paying their salary. 

Offline One Above All

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2012, 08:28:07 AM »
BM
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2012, 08:41:12 AM »
pianodwarf,

Well, this took place 19 years ago in a small southern town with a protestant church everywhere. I don't remember how I responded, at the time, but I didn't come out as an atheist to my mother 'til I was 18 years old. Trying to remember, I may not have responded, at all.

I do remember a similar incident when I was going to this Tech/Vocational school when I was 18, where somehow the topic of religion came up, and I told the teacher I was an atheist. She hurried out of the room and came back a few minutes later with another teacher and they tried to convert me to Christianity. It didn't work.

-Nam
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:44:58 AM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2012, 09:06:02 AM »
I have respect for both stances.  Both Frank and Pianodwarf embrace worldviews in which the welfare of others is paramount, and is the motivating force behind their actions.
Anyway, these impressionable youngsters were spoken to by the chief of a particular town, who said in these words "You will *never* bust another cop for DWI."


That's pretty much* standard procedure here in Baltimore. It even has attracted people I've known to become a cop.


*I.e. If there's an actual accident and serious injury....you just can't get away with it.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Handing out religious pamphlets while on the job.
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2012, 09:55:24 AM »
...I do remember thinking: is it his job as a police officer to ask such a question.....

No.  Not no how.  Its different from getting a random tract, because this person has it in his discretion to arrest you, or not, at his discretion (to a point).  When a person becomes afraid to tell the truth to an officer of the law because of that officer's words and actions, that is the point at which that officer has crossed the line.  This is definitely one I'd regard as worthy of complaint......

....and how does one respond?

....AFTER the event - and then assuming that there are unlikely to be repurcussions (e.g. I probably wouldn't complain if I lived in a town of a dozen people).  At the time, I think I'd initially try to pretend I hadn't heard, then restrict myself to a "no, I have not".  I really don't know what I'd do if he then pushed it.....given that saying the wrong thing could lead to an arrest, since its just his discretion that was leading him to choose to just remove me from the situation.  Tough call - not sure what I would do. 

Frankly, its similar to if a 6'6", 200 lb thug asked me the same question in a lonely side street.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?