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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #377 on: September 03, 2012, 09:50:24 AM »
Sam, you are wrong on much of your post.... there are kernels of fact in there, but then you start to attribute it to God instead of actual verifiable information.  Boots et. al. covered the evolutionary benefits pretty well so I'll leave those stand on their own merits, but a couple other quick points.

First off you mention moral absolutes.  Murder is really the only moral absolute that is cross-cultural and cross-temporal (theft is usually a close second).  All other things, rape included, are dependent on the era and the culture.  The Bible itself ADVOCATES RAPE.

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Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Numbers 31:10-18

 
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As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14

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If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

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Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
2 Samuel 12:11-12

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They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.
Judges 5:30

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When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
Exodus 21:7-11

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Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst.  And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2

For a moral absolute.  God seems pretty okay with rape my friend.

Murder is a pretty obvious one too as it removes someones genes from the pool.  I am not going to go too much into this because if I have to explain why murder is wrong, we have issues.... but even something like murder God advocates literally thousands if not millions of times over in the Bible.  "The Flood", Genocide, dashing of infants against rocks... ALL advocated by your moral authority Sam.  Its uncomfortable but true.  (this is going to sound dickish, and I apologize beforehand) - By all means, start the thread on the Bible being the God-breathed infallible word, Im sure this community will enjoy it.

If you haven't already, read Anfauglir's point about greater brainpower.  Surely you understand that since our species is capable of abstract thought this lends ourselves to empathy at a greater distance (ie. donating money to AIDS patients in Africa) than other species.


 
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #378 on: September 03, 2012, 10:05:59 AM »
And I don't understand how you compare human morals to animals morals, yes animals have their own morals but ours are far beyond theirs. Certain animals are more moral in certain ways but humans have the full set of morals unlike any animal. Animals don't go out of their way to help anyone outside their family or social circle I guess for primates, but humans can create things like animals rights groups, the peace corp, soup kitchens, and people travel around the world to help others they don't even know. 

Oh yes they do.

http://listverse.com/2010/03/14/top-10-cases-of-animals-saving-humans/

Number 10, 8, and 7, you can argue are about pets in their social circle, and 1 is a trained dog.  However, the rest are about animals helping people, even though there was "no reasons" for them to do so.

http://livingsta.hubpages.com/hub/Remarkable-animals-that-saved-peoples-lives

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2012/03/why-do-dolphins-save-humans.html

There are many documented cases of dolphins saving a person's life.  Such cases goes back centuries.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #379 on: September 03, 2012, 12:08:01 PM »
Well I probably wasn't clear enough on what you said first here but I'm not saying that people can't be moral without God, I think that is entirely possible. But that leads to my point, how do you explain where these morals come from, why do we have such value for one another? And I don't understand how you compare human morals to animals morals, yes animals have their own morals but ours are far beyond theirs.
Just a few quick responses:
a) Human beings are animals.  If you're going to make distinctions, labels such as 'animal' and 'not animal' aren't sufficient for your arguments.
b) Beyond is ill-defined in the above, but if by that you mean better or more moral, then I'd have to simply disagree with you.  I can't say for certain, but I'm not aware of any examples in the animal kingdom where torture exists.  There's plenty of things like killing and competing for mates, but I'm unaware of any animal species aside from humans that have every advocated or engaged in torture.  For me, that in and of itself knocks the human species down from the high-horse of moral superiority.  Just because we as a society can recognize morals does not, by default, make us more moral.
c) ...why do we have such value for one another?
And theists think it's the atheists that are emotionless and jaded.  Yeesh.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline wright

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #380 on: September 03, 2012, 01:57:50 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Sam. Others have addressed your questions pretty well, so I'll just add and reiterate a few points.

The benefits of helping others in one's social group, even those not directly related, are clear and unmistakable. Fish school to protect each other from predators and find food, the social insects build enormous nests that no individual could, grazing herds trade off feeding and lookout duty, wolf packs can kill the largest moose as a team. So there are all kinds of examples of social cooperation and altruism that we can observe in the natural world, without needing to invoke a god to explain them.

Then you get to us angsty, abstracting primates. As individual predators, we aren't physically impressive: I certainly wouldn't care to take on a buffalo defending her calf with my bare hands. But our ability to cooperate and abstract has made us the most successful "higher" animal in a few thousand years. Again, very clear benefits to treating fellow humans with at least minimal respect and courtesy. Add abstraction and a few millennium of trial-and-error: voila, what we call "morality".
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #381 on: September 03, 2012, 08:31:58 PM »
Very sloppy quote job by me--sorry about that. I'll do better next time.

Meantime, here's what I wrote in response to SamuelK:

It's not the JOB of science to show that this world doesn't need "a supernatural." Science is not concerned with the supernatural at all. It is concerned with what is observable, testable, repeatable, falsifiable. If it should so happen that science shows, through overwhelming evidence, that "a supernatural" isn't responsible for natural phenomena, then you can choose to accept that or not. You can choose to ignore logic, evidence, and the conclusions they support as you see fit. However, don't presume to judge those who refuse to turn their back on good sense in the name of a god that offers NO evidence to back up his existence.

I find it interesting that you came to this board with your little, innocuous, broad question, and sort of backed your way in to hard core proselytizing. Why did you come to an atheist board anyway? Church project to try and convert a few infidels?

I'm sorry you have missed my intentions very much so, my main goal when I came on here was to learn and expose myself to different ideas, I have many good friends that don't believe the same as me. I enjoy learning about all kinds of people's beliefs whatever those may be, I think it is extremely possible for people of varying beliefs to share those ideas with each other in a respectful matter. I try and read all of what everyone on here says without any bias honestly, I can admit what my bias is and look at things without it I think we all should. So have you heard a lot, little, or none of the evidence believers say there is for the supernatural?

Offline writerstephen

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #382 on: September 03, 2012, 08:42:05 PM »

I'm sorry you have missed my intentions very much so, my main goal when I came on here was to learn and expose myself to different ideas, I have many good friends that don't believe the same as me. I enjoy learning about all kinds of people's beliefs whatever those may be, I think it is extremely possible for people of varying beliefs to share those ideas with each other in a respectful matter. I try and read all of what everyone on here says without any bias honestly, I can admit what my bias is and look at things without it I think we all should. So have you heard a lot, little, or none of the evidence believers say there is for the supernatural?

Samuel, I feel i must apologize for my tone the last time i posted to you; you've been nothing but courteous, and i was a little snarkier than i intended.

That said, I've heard a LOT of the "evidence" for the supernatural, and none of it moves me. In fact, i don't think any of it actually counts as evidence at all. At best, it's anecdotal, not empirical. Near death experiences: Easily explained by science. Jesus' prophetical fulfillments: circular biblical logic. Efficacy of prayer: Zero evidence. Innate moral code: Easily explained by natural selection.

Offline none

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #383 on: September 04, 2012, 03:05:25 AM »
...
I'm sorry you have missed my intentions very much so, my main goal when I came on here was to learn and expose myself to different ideas, I have many good friends that don't believe the same as me. I enjoy learning about all kinds of people's beliefs whatever those may be, I think it is extremely possible for people of varying beliefs to share those ideas with each other in a respectful matter. I try and read all of what everyone on here says without any bias honestly, I can admit what my bias is and look at things without it I think we all should. So have you heard a lot, little, or none of the evidence believers say there is for the supernatural?
good job on improving the communication skills.
I didn't know there was evidence for the supernatural.
from my experience there is only testimony about the supernatural.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #384 on: September 04, 2012, 04:57:25 AM »
So if I look for your god today, I will find him today?  Clearly and unambiguously, I will find your particular god?
Ok my answer is yes, I will go into detail after your replys.

Wonderful.  Well, I'm looking.

24 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?

48 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?

72 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?  I confess, I am beginning to get rather tired looking for - and failing to find - a god that "(is not) hidden in any sense".
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 04:59:07 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #385 on: September 04, 2012, 06:05:52 AM »
^ One would assume that an all-loving God who does not WANT human beings to go to hell would be willing to make him/her/its self known with minimal searching.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #386 on: September 04, 2012, 07:26:38 AM »
72 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?

I’m surprised Samuelke hasn’t yet used one of the excuses I so often hear from Christians in this situation. For example, you have to search for God with an open mind [you have to be gullible]. Or you have to open your heart to God [you have to be driven by your emotion rather than reason]. Or perhaps you lack the spiritual sense Christians use to find their God [their imagination].

I too am eager to hear Samuelke’s explanation for why you haven’t yet found this god that is not hidden in any sense.

Offline Boots

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #387 on: September 04, 2012, 08:02:18 AM »
I'm curious about that . . . I'm also curious about how Sam responds to the other answers so far, regarding some of his questions/concerns about evolution/morality/beauty.  I mean, I think there are some very good answers, and I'd like toh ear his take on them--he's been thoughtful and earnest so far.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #388 on: September 04, 2012, 11:26:31 AM »
I'm sorry you have missed my intentions very much so, my main goal when I came on here was to learn and expose myself to different ideas, I have many good friends that don't believe the same as me. I enjoy learning about all kinds of people's beliefs whatever those may be, I think it is extremely possible for people of varying beliefs to share those ideas with each other in a respectful matter. I try and read all of what everyone on here says without any bias honestly, I can admit what my bias is and look at things without it I think we all should. So have you heard a lot, little, or none of the evidence believers say there is for the supernatural?

Do you have a definition of supernatural?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #389 on: September 04, 2012, 05:46:44 PM »
Quick yes or no question Sam.

Given:
1.That you have stated that to NOT use your super powers in our hypothetical situation to heal if you could would be immoral.

and

2. You list rape as wrong as a moral absolute, as a behavior that should be condemned.

- Is God immoral?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #390 on: September 04, 2012, 08:59:31 PM »
The bird of paradise example for me is perfectly eloquent enough of a way to explain the situation of beauty in the world, so I wont go into that more.

The video is not of a bird of paradise. It is a Wire-tailed Manakin from the Amazon in South America.

Excessive quoting removed.  --Moderator
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 05:57:34 AM by pianodwarf »
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
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Offline Boots

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #391 on: September 04, 2012, 09:17:59 PM »
The video is not of a bird of paradise. It is a Wire-tailed Manakin from the Amazon in South America.

Thank you for the clarification, and I apologize for not doing my homework enough to identify that fact.  My main point stands, though, regardless of my lack of aviary knowledge.  :-)
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline oogabooga

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #392 on: September 05, 2012, 03:35:53 AM »
Well I probably wasn't clear enough on what you said first here but I'm not saying that people can't be moral without God, I think that is entirely possible.
But your statement seems to imply that while it's entirely possible to be moral without god, it's not really probable. It's a bit insulting, I must say. I'm willing to bet you can't provide any kind of evidence that religious people are more moral than others - and you certainly can't provide any evidence that people who believe in your particular flavour of god are more moral than those who believe in other gods.

The latter is especially complicated. See, people of other religions are absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt, convinced that the 'morals', conveyed by their gods, are absolute, perfect and irrefutable. Their claims are identical to yours, and yet their morals often aren't. Which god is right? They feel the same connection to their deity as you do to yours. Which also raises the question what your god is doing about that. Is he intentionally hardening their hearts so they don't feel his love but instead feel the love of another god?

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But that leads to my point, how do you explain where these morals come from, why do we have such value for one another?
This is also a bit insulting, since this very question, posed by you no less, has been answered more than once. You keep rehashing it as if repeating it often enough would somehow force us to concede you're right.

I'll try again: We value one another because we couldn't survive otherwise. Our moral concepts evolved through that realisation. But you also keep forgetting that all is not as peachy as you're portraying it. We, as a species, are perfectly capable of harming one another, and we demonstrate that fact every single day. Believers and non-believers alike.

How does that inherent morality, instilled by god, explain, say, Inquisition, witch hunts, discrimination of women or slavery? All those things were done by deeply religious Christians in the name of their god and the morality he instilled in them. This is a question you still haven't answered. Free will doesn't explain squat, since people who did all that justified their acts with the same Bible that inspires all sorts of 'good' things in you.

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And I don't understand how you compare human morals to animals morals, yes animals have their own morals but ours are far beyond theirs. Certain animals are more moral in certain ways but humans have the full set of morals unlike any animal. Animals don't go out of their way to help anyone outside their family or social circle I guess for primates, but humans can create things like animals rights groups, the peace corp, soup kitchens, and people travel around the world to help others they don't even know. And then all the jobs that help people doctors and nurses, emt, and firefighters to name only a few. So while some animals are more moral then others none of their morals go anywhere near as far as ours go. One more example of this, I heard this story some may have heard it I know some of it was in the news, but it was about this train wrecking into water, on board there was this couple and their child had cerebral palsy and was in a wheel chair. They immediately picked her wheel chair up over their heads, and when rescuers came they were able to save the child barely because of the parents, but the parents didn't make it.
This has been more than adequately explained so far, so I won't delve into the subject at this point. What I would like to do is present the counterpoint: how do you explain people forming associations and groups strictly aimed at harming others? Crime syndicates, hooligans, murderous cults and so on? How do you explain crooked cops, angels of death, medical workers who intentionally kill or harm their patients, firefighters who steal from the homes they are supposed to save or set fires, people who don't care about their children, loved ones, members of their own society and intentionally harm them or let them die, soldiers who indiscriminately rape, steal and pillage on their 'humanitarian' missions - in the very peace corps you seem to care so much about? How do you explain people who in the name of your god decline medical care for their children, resulting in their death or severe disability?

See, that's why we need laws. Not for the majority that instinctively doesn't harm others, but for the minority that does. We set rules and regulations and have been doing since before we were able to speak. Animals have more or less the same rules, they just lack the capacity to tell us in our language what those rules are. But we can observe their direct effect. Those rules are consistent and predictable when observing different groups of the same (or related) species. So are ours. Go figure.

I also have to point out that the mere fact that you don't understand something doesn't mean no one else does. Just because you are not familiar with a certain subject, doesn't, in the least, mean no one else is. But the thing that I find even more troubling is the fact that while you're supposedly willing to debate us, you're not willing to even hear us out. We have answered your questions and addressed your claims at length - and you ignored every single argument we made. You cherry pick questions to which you think you have an answer to and ignore the ones you either can't or won't answer. You ignore information presented to you and keep repeating the same things over and over again.

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My point is and sorry for the length, how does a love like that come about by accident, or however you want to put that? I don't understand how evolution can explain that, it goes against all of evolution, because of such deep love. I believe that it because of the fact that you don't have to believe in God to have morals and know every life is worthy of value, that shows there has to be some transcending absolute that has instilled it within all of us. So I ask if you can really give me a rational explanation of where these came from, how there truly are things that are absolutely wrong whether or not someone agrees with it like murder, rape, and things of that nature.
Everything that has evolved can be said to be an 'accident'. If a new trait proves beneficial (or not harmful) for survival, it persists. If it's harmful, it dies off because the individuals possessing it can't reproduce as efficiently as those who don't.

What we describe as love is a very complex set of chemical reactions that drive us to do certain things. But you also seem to forget that 'deep love', as you call it, can also harm us or others. People commit suicide because of it. They inadvertently harm their children and loved ones, believing they're helping them. They stalk, harass and even kill people, because they feel such deep love for them or others. They harm and kill other people because they love their god so much.

And make no mistake about it - it's love they feel. How do you explain that?

Just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't mean they don't value life and think that murder or rape are suddenly acceptable. I don't. And I certainly don't believe in god, never have. Neither do my parents and most members of my family - and the rest are all cultural believers at best. We all abhor violence and discrimination. Mind explaining that?

There is nothing 'absolutely' wrong or right, not for any length of time, anyway. Suffering a witch to live was considered immoral, remember? Slavery was considered moral. Murdering children for insubordination was a moral imperative. Punishing adultery by death used to be moral - not just moral, it was law. Spousal abuse used to be morally sound. The same goes for child abuse (spare the rod, remember?). God's law says that a rape victim must marry her rapist. Can you rationally explain why we don't think those acts are moral any more?

I've posed these same questions to you in another topic and you simply avoided them. Not just that - you rehashed the same arguments here without any regard to the fact that you've already been proven wrong. That's rude. Some could even call it morally questionable. It's certainly intellectually dishonest.

While I understand it can be overwhelming having so many people dissect your posts and demanding answers, but so far you haven't answer a whole lot of them, have you? Every now and again you quote something as if you're about to address the subject of the post, but you veer of in a direction you find suitable and avoid 'hard' questions. This may seem harsh, but it's true - you're not contributing to a debate. You're contributing to your own monologues and sermons. Considering the number and length of replies it should be clear to you we're sincerely interested in debating you on the subjects of your own choosing, otherwise we wouldn't bother. Please, be courteous enough to get involved in a debate instead of parroting yourself and other who have been proven to have nothing of substance to say. Thank you.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #393 on: September 05, 2012, 03:46:47 AM »
So if I look for your god today, I will find him today?  Clearly and unambiguously, I will find your particular god?
Ok my answer is yes, I will go into detail after your replys.

Wonderful.  Well, I'm looking.

24 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?

48 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?

72 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke? 

96 hours later.  Nothing found. 

What went wrong, god? 

Samuelke is unwilling or unable to help me out, so perhaps you could give me some clue as to where you are?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #394 on: September 07, 2012, 06:34:54 AM »
So if I look for your god today, I will find him today?  Clearly and unambiguously, I will find your particular god?
Ok my answer is yes, I will go into detail after your replys.

Wonderful.  Well, I'm looking.

24 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?

48 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke?

72 hours later.  Nothing found.  What went wrong, Samuelke? 

96 hours later.  Nothing found. 

What went wrong, god? 

Samuelke is unwilling or unable to help me out, so perhaps you could give me some clue as to where you are?

120 hours.....well, you get the idea.  Both Samuelke and his god appear to be hiding.  Or at least, they don't want to appear and answer my questions.  To them I say: my door is always open if YOU want to initiate communication.  But I feel I've done my part.  I looked, and could not find. 

So its your move, god of Samuelke.  If you want to talk to me, I'm here.  If I don't hear from you, I'll presume that you aren't interested in a relationship with me.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #395 on: September 07, 2012, 09:07:39 AM »
I was excited about this Convo. Hopefully Sam is just on break and hasn't abandoned the thread entirely.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #396 on: September 07, 2012, 11:10:10 AM »
Yes, that's it. Has to be. Only explanation that makes any sense. Sam's god is not interested in a relationship with Anfauglir. God is standing right beside him, arms crossed, faced turned away. Pouty face.

Actually god is doing that to all of us.

Actually all gods ever imagined are doing that to all of us.

Except Thor. ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Boots

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #397 on: September 07, 2012, 11:54:42 AM »
Yes, that's it. Has to be. Only explanation that makes any sense. Sam's god is not interested in a relationship with Anfauglir. God is standing right beside him, arms crossed, faced turned away. Pouty face.

Actually god is doing that to all of us.

Actually all gods ever imagined are doing that to all of us.

Except Thor. ;)

Agreed.  Too hard to cross one's arms while holding that bigarse hammer.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #398 on: September 07, 2012, 04:09:14 PM »
Yes, that's it. Has to be. Only explanation that makes any sense. Sam's god is not interested in a relationship with Anfauglir. God is standing right beside him, arms crossed, faced turned away. Pouty face.

Actually god is doing that to all of us.

Actually all gods ever imagined are doing that to all of us.

Except Thor. ;)

Agreed.  Too hard to cross one's arms while holding that bigarse hammer.
Vishnu will cross some extra arms on Thor's behalf.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #399 on: September 09, 2012, 08:38:54 AM »
I see the topic is “Re: World views with no God.” As God is capitalised, we know that the poster meant the Judeo-Abrahamic god.

We do not have to go far to find out what the “world view” would be without God – India; Japan; China, much of SE Asia, most of Northern Europe, etc. are all bereft of God.

If you think that their lack of God has left many of those countries as shit-holes, then think again  of the countries that have God, and little else – Most of Africa, Central America, Pacific Islands, etc. hardly centres of excellence...

Then there are the countries that have God – Lebanon, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, The Gulf States, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc.

Seems to me that a country’s fortunes and “World View” are not at all connected with God, who, once again, does not seem to be there.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #400 on: September 13, 2012, 01:18:01 AM »

But I just understand how the others may not be as convincing to some people, however I think the moral and the historical evidence for Jesus stand very strong and I am more then willing to interact on those if you all would like. But to further answer the question these two arguments I have just named, if those were logically, truthfully, and coherently disproved I would have a lot to rethink.


Lets assume for a moment that Jesus did exist, that physically there was a man in that region at that time.  The historical evidence for even that is sketchy, but I will give you that.  I will also give you that if he did exist, his teachings were generally moral.  There are exceptions to that, but largely I would consider the tradition of Jesus to be "moral".

The thing is... at what point does that prove the existence of God?  I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that a man who occasionally goes by the name of Garja online, currently lives in South-Central Ohio, behaves morally, loves his family, teaches children and wants the best for society.  Garja stands in front of a rapt audience 180 days a year for 45 minute sermons 6 times a day.  His teachings are moral, they talk frequently about the sins of those in the past and how men and women can move beyond that while recognizing how those past decisions effect us today.  Garja has spoken with thieves, drug dealers, gang members,rapists and drug dealers and approached them as equals, but equals who lacked the ability to lead moral lives. 

At what point does being moral equate divinity?

I think you ask a good question, but I'm going to present a bit of quotes I think are very significant to the topic. I have tried to represent different views But you can give your responses.

“I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrase-mongers, however artful¡¨. He further added: “No man can read the gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus.” — Einstein – Scientist and Mathematician

“I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded an empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.” — Napoleon (French General, Politician and Emperor (1804-14). 1769-1821)

“A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act.” — Mahatma Gandhi, Indian political leader (1869-1948

“I am an historian, I am not a believer, but I must confess as a historian that this penniless preacher from Nazareth is irrevocably the very center of history. Jesus Christ is easily the most dominant figure in all history.” — H.G. Wells, British author (1866-1946)

“In his own lifetime Jesus made no impact on history. This is something that I cannot but regard as a special dispensation on God’s part, and, I like to think, yet another example of the ironical humour which informs so many of his purposes. To me, it seems highly appropriate that the most important figure in all history should thus escape the notice of memoirists, diarists, commentators, all the tribe of chroniclers who even then existed.” — Malcolm Muggeridge, British journalist (1903-90)


“Jesus Christ was an extremist for love, truth and goodness.” — Martin Luther King Jr., American civil rights leader (1929-68)

Jesus Christ is to me the outstanding personality of all time, all history, both as Son of God and as Son of Man. Everything he ever said or did has value for us today and that is something you can say of no other man, dead or alive. There is no easy middle ground to stroll upon. You either accept Jesus or reject him. --Sholem Asch


I accept the resurrection of Easter Sunday not as an invention of the community of disciples, but as a historical event. If the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on that Easter Sunday were a public event which had been made known...not only to the 530 Jewish witnesses but to the entire population, all Jews would have become followers of Jesus. --Pinchas Lapide, Orthodox Jewish scholar, Germany (born 1922)

Because Christianity’s influence is so pervasive throughout much of the world, it is easy to forget how radical its beliefs once were. Jesus’ resurrection forever changed Christians’ view of death. Rodney Stark, sociologist at the University of Washington, points out that when a major plague hit the ancient Roman Empire, Christians had surprisingly high survival rates. Why? Most Roman citizens would banish any plague-stricken person from their household. But because Christians had no fear of death, they nursed their sick instead of throwing them out on the streets. Therefore, many Christians survived the plague. --“2000 Years of Jesus” by Kenneth L. Woodward, NEWSWEEK, March 29, 1999, p. 55.

I know the brutality and the cruelties of war better than many people. Now I want to work for peace. But how can mankind achieve a lasting peace? True peace of heart, mind, and soul can only come through Jesus Christ.Mitsuo Fuchida   Navy Captain (Japanese; commanded air strike against Pearl Harbor in 1941)   


Ernst Bloch   German Marxist Philosopher   It wasn't the morality of the Sermon on the Mount which enabled Christianity to conquer Roman paganism, but the belief that Jesus had been raised from the dead. In an age when Roman senators vied to see who could get the most blood of a steer on their togas - thinking that would prevent death - Christianity was in competition for eternal life, not morality.   April, 1996   Newswe

Sir Lionel Luckhoo   Trial Lawyer (won a world-record 245 murder acquittals in a row, making him the most successful lawyer in the world, according to The Guinness book of World Records)   I say unequivocally that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.   1998   "God's Outrageous Claims" by Lee Strobel

The ordinary group of worshipping Christians, as the preacher sees them from the pulpit, does not look like a collection of very joyful people, in fact, they look on the whole rather sad, tired, depressed people. It is certain that such people will never win the world for Christ... It is no use trying to pretend: we may speak of joy and preach about it: but, unless we really have the joy of Christ in our hearts and manifest it, our words will carry no conviction to our hearers. Stephen Neill (1900-1984)

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
? C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

To the Christian, love is the works of love. To say that love is a feeling or anything of the kind is really an un-Christian conception of love. That is the aesthetic definition and therefore fits the erotic and everything of that nature. But to the Christian, love is the works of love. Christ's love was not an inner feeling, a full heart and what-not: it was the work of love which was his life. Soren Kierkegaard (1813-1855

I will finally stop here and talk for a moment about the author of this last quote here I think most of you know him maybe, maybe not. But I won't to show you another quote of his, this is geared to this whole hiddeness of God, and when I said I don't think he is hidden at all, I meant at this point in time for me. Because before he was hidden to me in just about every way possible. I tend to agree with newton when he said god is revealed in two books the Bible, and the book of nature or science. I think God reveals himself in more ways though not restricted to these two, but personally I think it is set up brilliantly by God that we can explore the science, mathematics, logic, and other principles of the universe. In this sense he has hidden himself in the universe, so we can use our intelligence to discover the intellect and truth God displays in the universe. So I believe he reveals himself through the Bible, through personal revelation, or through his creation. I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him? I need to start a thread for a few things, one geared towards intelligent design and evolution, one on whether the Bible is reliable or not, and finally one more specifically Jesus and whether or not what he said was true.

God is not like a human being; it is not important for God to have visible evidence so that he can see if his cause has been victorious or not; he sees in secret just as well. Moreover, it is so far from being the case that you should help God to learn anew that it is rather he who will help you to learn anew, so that you are weaned from the worldly point of view that insists on visible evidence. (...) A decision in the external sphere is what Christianity does not want; (...) rather it wants to test the individual’s faith."[13]1847 Kierkegaard

Sorry I know these are older I'm going to respond to newer ones next mainly, the question on animals and humans and how different they are. My next reply will come faster sorry school is starting to pile up.

Offline oogabooga

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #401 on: September 13, 2012, 02:11:46 AM »
Sam, what you did there is known as a logical fallacy called argumentum ad verecundiam or appeal to authority. Just because someone famous said it, doesn't make it true.

Most of the quotes you used are about Jesus being an influence on people. Nobody disputes that. There have been literally thousands of fictional characters throughout history that have made an impact on individuals or groups. I won't name all the gods that we know people used to worship and don't exist. There have been literary characters that made a huge impact on my way of thinking and have greatly influenced my worldview, from Raskolnikov and Mishkin to Demian and Harry Haller, from Maggie the Cat to Zorg, from Captain Ahab to Harry Dresden, from the Selfish Giant to Granny Weatherwax. The story of Jesus has had a huge impact on people and world in general. That doesn't make it true.

What is true is the fact that there is no contemporaneous evidence of Jesus. Romans, for instance, were fastidious chroniclers and most of what we know about the Great Roman Empire comes from their own documents. And yet there is no mention of Jesus in any of the texts that were written in the time of their occupation of Judea, even though he was supposedly a huge thorn in their side. Every single document we have about Jesus was written well after his death and as a second hand account at best. Most just mention the existence of Christians and their beliefs. Nobody has ever questioned those.

The existence of Christians, their holy book and their beliefs is a well established fact. But that fact doesn't prove that their beliefs are based in reality. David Icke and his like-minded group of followers firmly believe in reptilian alien overlords. That's a very well established fact. But their existence doesn't prove their beliefs, however dearly held, are true. Can you see the difference?

A cherry-picked story about Jesus serves as inspiration to many. But so do stories about Spider-Man and Batman and Harry Potter. Just because they're inspirational in one way or another, doesn't mean they're true.

So far there has been no conclusive evidence that Jesus existed, let alone that he was the son of god and god at the same time. At the time of Roman oppression messiahs were probably cropping up all over the place, because they were 'predicted' in the OT. Someone claiming he can deliver people from suffering in an easy way was probably quite popular. If such a person existed (and even if he was simply made-up by hopeful or greedy or power-hungry individuals), the stories about him most likely grew like weeds and by the time they were written, reached ridiculous proportions. Like any story about a supposed champion of the nation. It's not like that has never happened, is it?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #402 on: September 13, 2012, 03:56:11 AM »
I think you ask a good question, but I'm going to present a bit of quotes I think are very significant to the topic. I have tried to represent different views But you can give your responses.

<<Other people's views removed>>
I will finally stop here and talk for a moment about the author of this last quote here I think most of you know him maybe, maybe not. But I won't to show you another quote of his, this is geared to this whole hiddeness of God, and when I said I don't think he is hidden at all, I meant at this point in time for me. Because before he was hidden to me in just about every way possible. I tend to agree with newton when he said god is revealed in two books the Bible, and the book of nature or science. I think God reveals himself in more ways though not restricted to these two, but personally I think it is set up brilliantly by God that we can explore the science, mathematics, logic, and other principles of the universe. In this sense he has hidden himself in the universe, so we can use our intelligence to discover the intellect and truth God displays in the universe. So I believe he reveals himself through the Bible, through personal revelation, or through his creation. I don't see how God could be loving if he forced us to believe in him? I need to start a thread for a few things, one geared towards intelligent design and evolution, one on whether the Bible is reliable or not, and finally one more specifically Jesus and whether or not what he said was true.

<<Other people's views removed>>

Sorry I know these are older I'm going to respond to newer ones next mainly, the question on animals and humans and how different they are. My next reply will come faster sorry school is starting to pile up.

Samuelke - please do NOT bother reponding if all you can do is quote the work of others.  Rarely if ever will a quote directly address a quesrtion you are asked - and even if it does, because that quote was not your work you will be unable to answer subsidiary questions about it.  YOU are being asked questions - please can YOU answer them.  If you are incapable of doing that, then I suggest that this site is not for you.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #403 on: September 13, 2012, 04:00:23 AM »
.....when I said I don't think he is hidden at all, I meant at this point in time for me. Because before he was hidden to me in just about every way possible.....

Nearly missed this in the morass of quotes above.  A not-very-skilful attempt to dodge your way out of a very specific question that you were asked, because you didn't just say you "didn't think your god was hidden" - you followed it up with the extremely specific and definitive statement below:

So if I look for your god today, I will find him today?  Clearly and unambiguously, I will find your particular god?
Ok my answer is yes, I will go into detail after your replys.

It didn't happen, Samuelke.  Why not?  You said, extremely clearly, that I would find clear and unambiguous evidence for your god.  I didn't.  So what went wrong, Samuelke?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #404 on: September 13, 2012, 03:43:58 PM »
Hey Sam, glad to see you haven't abandoned the site or this thread, I hope school is going well.  Oogabooga essentially covers what I would have said in reply to your post today, so I wont simply re hash it.  I will re ask the question below-

Quick yes or no question Sam.

Given:
1.That you have stated that to NOT use your super powers in our hypothetical situation to heal if you could would be immoral.

and

2. You list rape as wrong as a moral absolute, as a behavior that should be condemned.

- Is God immoral?
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline Gohavesomefun

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #405 on: September 13, 2012, 07:41:43 PM »
Ok sorry what I mean is where did all this and us come from? What is or do we have purpose? And what happens when you die?


Check out Stephen Hawkings Grand Designs, you might enjoy it - I did.

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