Author Topic: World views with no God  (Read 14079 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #290 on: August 22, 2012, 01:08:27 PM »
Would you insist they believe in you without seeing you?
Ok before I answer this you have to answer this, what exactly are you intending by believing without seeing? Do you not believe in anything you can't see physically, so things like, we can physically see the human brain but many do indeed believe we also have a mind that there is no physical proof for, or I could go on to name many scientific things most believe in without physically seeing like dark matter and dark energy. So I'll further reply upon your reply here.

It is more broad than that.  In the Magical Sam scenario, you could ostensibly heal people on the other side of the planet without their knowledge of how or why or by whom they were healed. You could do all you healing completely anonymously. In fact, you could use your magical omnipotence to hide yourself perfectly from everyone.  And I could see why you might do it - to avoid being pestered for every trivial problem.  So, supposing you did this, would you still demand people believe in you?
 

Would you destroy them if they didn't love you?
I'm going to need clarifaction here too sorry, but I'm wondering if you are asking me this as well, which I'm thinking but let me know if I'm wrong, is maybe if me or you were God and created this and humans, would we love these humans and give them a choice to believe in you or not to, or have no relationship and love with them and just let them live and die or just automatically everyone goes to heaven or whatever other way you can put this?

No need to apologize.  Honest requests for clarification are welcome. 

Your question jumps ahead a bit and touches on the point of my questions.  But yes, it could be paraphrased as If you were god, would you have a hell?

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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #291 on: August 23, 2012, 08:11:04 PM »
Would you insist they believe in you without seeing you?
Ok before I answer this you have to answer this, what exactly are you intending by believing without seeing? Do you not believe in anything you can't see physically, so things like, we can physically see the human brain but many do indeed believe we also have a mind that there is no physical proof for, or I could go on to name many scientific things most believe in without physically seeing like dark matter and dark energy. So I'll further reply upon your reply here.

It is more broad than that.  In the Magical Sam scenario, you could ostensibly heal people on the other side of the planet without their knowledge of how or why or by whom they were healed. You could do all you healing completely anonymously. In fact, you could use your magical omnipotence to hide yourself perfectly from everyone.  And I could see why you might do it - to avoid being pestered for every trivial problem.  So, supposing you did this, would you still demand people believe in you?
 

Would you destroy them if they didn't love you?
I'm going to need clarifaction here too sorry, but I'm wondering if you are asking me this as well, which I'm thinking but let me know if I'm wrong, is maybe if me or you were God and created this and humans, would we love these humans and give them a choice to believe in you or not to, or have no relationship and love with them and just let them live and die or just automatically everyone goes to heaven or whatever other way you can put this?

No need to apologize.  Honest requests for clarification are welcome. 

Your question jumps ahead a bit and touches on the point of my questions.  But yes, it could be paraphrased as If you were god, would you have a hell?

Well to answer the first one here I'm gonna say no I would not demand them to believe in that case you have portrayed. But I will go ahead and say I do not think that God is like that, now I'll wait to go any further there though.

Now this next question, if you are still giving the scenario about a completely hidden God my answer is no, I wouldn't destroy them. I think your questions bring up some big points but I don't believe God to be hidden in any sense, we can delve deeper into these ideas if you would like thanks again.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #292 on: August 23, 2012, 08:32:47 PM »
Samuelke, you don't think god is hidden in any sense?

Human beings can't measure, see, hear, touch or smell god. People who say they believe in god can't even describe him in a coherent way. Two theists in the same religion cannot agree on exactly what god is like and what he does and does not do. Sacred texts that purport to describe god are contradictory and confusing.

 Seems to me that God is hidden in every sense!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #293 on: August 23, 2012, 10:04:14 PM »
nogodsforme,

I just want to publicly tell you.... you may be my favorite poster on these boards.  You have yet to post anything that I do not agree with completely, and in fact you usually beat me to comments I would have made.  So, kudos.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #294 on: August 23, 2012, 10:32:26 PM »
nogodsforme,

I just want to publicly tell you.... you may be my favorite poster on these boards.  You have yet to post anything that I do not agree with completely, and in fact you usually beat me to comments I would have made.  So, kudos.

So, are you saying that the Vulcan mind meld I remotely performed on you worked? Kudos are great. Cash would be better.  :-*
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #295 on: August 23, 2012, 10:35:58 PM »
noGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODSforme

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #296 on: August 23, 2012, 11:02:08 PM »
Well to answer the first one here I'm gonna say no I would not demand them to believe in that case you have portrayed. But I will go ahead and say I do not think that God is like that, now I'll wait to go any further there though.
I'd like you to go further here.  There are a lot of Christians that explicitly say that my only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus.  Many of those Christians are pretty explicit about no salvation = eternal punishment.  There are also many Christians that proclaim god is punishing the people of the Earth, here and now, with earthquakes, tidal waves, and other horrific tragedies, because they are 'turning away from god'.  That conflicts with what you're saying here.  What's the resolution?
Quote
Now this next question, if you are still giving the scenario about a completely hidden God my answer is no, I wouldn't destroy them. I think your questions bring up some big points but I don't believe God to be hidden in any sense, we can delve deeper into these ideas if you would like thanks again.
I agree with nogodsforme insofar as god appears completely hidden to me.  It is, of course, very possible that I'm simply too stupid to see it.  Is it better to punish the stupid or to educate the stupid?

So, are you saying that the Vulcan mind meld I remotely performed on you worked? Kudos are great. Cash would be better.  :-*
...and now I have to bust out my old tinfoil hat again, though I have no ties that match.  A dilemma is presented to me.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #297 on: August 24, 2012, 05:41:02 AM »
.....I don't believe God to be hidden in any sense....

So....if I look for god today, I will find him today?  He will answer me directly and unambiguously?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #298 on: August 24, 2012, 08:27:59 AM »


So....if I look for god today, I will find him today?  He will answer me directly and unambiguously?

This part is key Sam.  A dove flying by or some other kind of lyrical BS does NOT count.




btw, I complement you in starting to answer the simple yet difficult questions that have been posed.  You sir are coming around.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #299 on: August 24, 2012, 08:53:17 AM »
Samuelke, you don't think god is hidden in any sense?

Human beings can't measure, see, hear, touch or smell god. People who say they believe in god can't even describe him in a coherent way. Two theists in the same religion cannot agree on exactly what god is like and what he does and does not do. Sacred texts that purport to describe god are contradictory and confusing.

 Seems to me that God is hidden in every sense!

Well your statement brings up a lot of questions for me like, if you used that kind of thinking for everything you believe in there are many Other things you would then have to not believe in. For example, you can't measure, see, taste, smell, or touch your memories so how can we trust those? The same goes for emotions, the mind, good or bad, and then if you look at science and how can you really talk about gravity, electromagnetism, and energy to name just a few.

Now will you all answer me this, if you say the best way to understand life and our life is science, first of all that claim itself is self-defeating. Then the rest of the question stems from the above, but what about all things in our lives science will never explain, like existential questions and struggle, never can it explain history, nor will it ever be able to define morality. Not meaning anyone of you can't be and understand morals, just that science will never be able to say something is absolutely wrong it is just relative, so it doesn't matter what anyone says.

To me God is not hidden in any sense, everything in science even to me any many others like newton, Galileo,  and many more. We can discuss further later today after I finish school and work thanks all.

I want to end though with a couple qoutes I think I extremely significant.


Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): “From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science.”

 Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) “It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of Deoxyribonucleic acid: the chemical inside the nucleus of a cell that carries the genetic instructions for making living organisms.DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.”

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): “When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.” Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The Physics Of Christianity.


Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”


Offline Azdgari

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #300 on: August 24, 2012, 09:04:43 AM »
What would a hidden god be like for you, Sam?  I want to probe the apparent differences between a hidden and non-hidden god.  Do they look any different from each other?
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Offline Dante

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #301 on: August 24, 2012, 09:35:33 AM »

Well your statement brings up a lot of questions for me like, if you used that kind of thinking for everything you believe in there are many Other things you would then have to not believe in. For example, you can't measure, see, taste, smell, or touch your memories so how can we trust those? The same goes for emotions, the mind, good or bad, and then if you look at science and how can you really talk about gravity, electromagnetism, and energy to name just a few.

Memories, emotions, and the mind are difficult to measure, but we can experience not only our own, but others as well. And every single person has these. All of us (with the ultra rare exception of the brain damaged and/or extremely mentally ill). We can cross check our memories against others memories, we can experience others minds in that they are communicating with us through audible or written languages. They are demonstrably real. The same cannot be said about your god, Sam.

Gravity, electromagnetism, and energy, can in fact be measured, as well as experienced by everyone. Every person on the planet experiences them. They are not subject to "faith", in as much as one cannot NOT experience gravity or energy. The same cannot be said about your god, Sam.

So again, how is your god not "hidden"? Show us your god. I await with bated breath.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #302 on: August 24, 2012, 10:09:37 AM »
]

Well your statement brings up a lot of questions for me like, if you used that kind of thinking for everything you believe in there are many Other things you would then have to not believe in. For example, you can't measure, see, taste, smell, or touch your memories so how can we trust those? The same goes for emotions, the mind, good or bad,


These are internal to our skull. They do not impact the real world directly. They do comprise our conciousness, there isn't an equivalent unless you are calling god an illusion with no existence except in our skulls.

]


 and then if you look at science and how can you really talk about gravity, electromagnetism, and energy to name just a few.

All of which are measurable and detectable...which still does not match to your god hypothesis.

]



Now will you all answer me this, if you say the best way to understand life and our life is science, first of all that claim itself is self-defeating.


Now this is a manifold question of deep significance, because it all depends on what you call life. If you are talking about the interaction of human beings, culture and meaning, well no it isn't the best. But, when you are talking about life as in "the universe," yes it is.

I am holding your feet to the fire as to the nebulous term "life"

]

 Then the rest of the question stems from the above, but what about all things in our lives science will never explain, like existential questions and struggle, never can it explain history, nor will it ever be able to define morality. Not meaning anyone of you can't be and understand morals, just that science will never be able to say something is absolutely wrong it is just relative, so it doesn't matter what anyone says.

None of which has to do with the question of whether the is an invisible intantigle superbeing, a god, watching us, who created us, and judges us. None of it. If we are to argue of the relative artistic value of say, a piece of pottery, we first have to determine WHETHER OR NOT IT ACTUALLY EXISTS.

]


To me God is not hidden in any sense, everything in science even to me any many others like newton, Galileo,  and many more. We can discuss further later today after I finish school and work thanks all.


So what if someone learned thought a being existed, not relavent to the question. Particularly Flew, whose conversion after 40 years out of the limelight has more than a few fingerprints of a dubious nature.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:11:40 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Boots

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #303 on: August 24, 2012, 01:25:13 PM »
Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy, former atheist, author, and debater) “It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of Deoxyribonucleic acid: the chemical inside the nucleus of a cell that carries the genetic instructions for making living organisms.DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.”

Sam,
you might want to read up on some of the people you're quoting here.  I picked the one above and found this right away:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew
It describes in some minor detail his "conversion" such as it was, and the flip-flopping he did in his 80's and the one thing he' still questioned.  It doesn't really lend a lot of credibility to you that you're quoting him--particularl since he specifically says he does NOT believe in "the Christian god."

I intend to look up the others as time permits.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline Boots

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #304 on: August 24, 2012, 01:34:54 PM »
Interesting blog on Frank Tipler
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/01/05/the-varieties-of-crackpot-experience/

Apparently Tipler belives global warming isn't happening, in addition to the fact that he can prove Xianity via physics.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #305 on: August 24, 2012, 01:36:02 PM »
Samuelke, you don't think god is hidden in any sense?

Human beings can't measure, see, hear, touch or smell god. People who say they believe in god can't even describe him in a coherent way. Two theists in the same religion cannot agree on exactly what god is like and what he does and does not do. Sacred texts that purport to describe god are contradictory and confusing.

 Seems to me that God is hidden in every sense!

Well your statement brings up a lot of questions for me like, if you used that kind of thinking for everything you believe in there are many Other things you would then have to not believe in. For example, you can't measure, see, taste, smell, or touch your memories so how can we trust those? The same goes for emotions, the mind, good or bad, and then if you look at science and how can you really talk about gravity, electromagnetism, and energy to name just a few.

Well, first off, we can't really trust our memories. Our memories are not like a recording device with exact recall. We forget most of what has happened to us. We remember things that never happened, and remember things differently from the way they actually happened. Eyewitnesses and crime victims finger the wrong guy and report different versions of the same event. Cameras and DNA give more accurate evidence than human memories.

We know this because, using science, instead of "trusting memories", we investigated how memory works and found that our brains construct our memories to help us make sense of the world, to give us closure, to fill in gaps, to give us a coherent past. Not to say that memory is bad or useless, but it is not as reliable a record of the past as we want to think.

I read a book on memory where they tested the supposedly exact recall of traditional tribal storytellers. You know how we have been told that they can orally recite the entire history of the tribe from memory? Oral tradition is the basis of many cultural "histories", including the bible stories, so it is important to know if they are accurate.

Well, when the storytellers were recorded telling the same story several times on tape, the stories were not exactly the same. The people who heard the story could not hear the differences and the storyteller swore that it was the exact same story every time. Imagine how the differences mount up over many, many retellings--the hero is short, then after 100 years he is tall, 100 years later he's a giant, then a giant prince, then a giant king, and after 1000 years he's a god.

Same thing with emotions. Feelings are notoriously unreliable as indicators of reality. Con artists, gold-diggers, gigolos and car salespeople rely on this fact to make a living. We can't just rely on how we feel to know if something is real or not. A white curtain blowing in a dark room scares the be-vishnu out of us if we think it is a ghost. But it is just a sheet, no matter how scared we feel. Sometimes our feelings indicate reality-- that creepy guy who gives you the willies really is bad news. But not always. We remember when our initial feeling is confirmed and forget when it isn't.

I'll give two personal examples: As a teen I sat down next to a fatherly looking middle-aged white man on an overnight bus ride. We had a very nice conversation about my writing and art, his adult daughter's job and other random topics. I felt very safe sitting with him, as if he was a trusted neighbor.  Once the lights were out, however, his hand was on my thigh. Gagh! Yech! After a brief tussle, I moved seats, feeling very betrayed as well as molested.

Another time I had an experience with an employer that led me to assume he was a racist. I felt physically ill in his presence, and could not even eat if he was in the room. I left the job with very negative feelings about the man and the workplace. It was not until years later when I found out that the man was not being racist at all, but we had gotten some generational and cultural wires crossed. For years I had the wrong feelings about this man, based on a mistaken interpretation of something he did. It was actually a pretty nice job, messed up by my feelings.

Experiencing god seems to fall into the same category with memories and emotions. God is: a lovely sunset, a terrible rainstorm, an unexpected death, a difficult but successful birth, a flock of birds overhead, a bolt of lightning striking a tree, a forest fire changing directions and a car trunk opening suddenly.

Really? That was god changing the fire's direction away from your cabin?  Which god was that exactly? The same god who turned the fire towards somebody else's house... 

Experiences of god are not reliable outside of independent corroboration of some sort. And subject to very selective interpretations of facts. We remember the one time that a prayer is answered and forget the millions of times when it was not.[1]
 1. Maybe that is why some religions tell the followers to "pray constantly". Sooner or later something will match up.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 01:41:15 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #306 on: August 24, 2012, 05:49:24 PM »
Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”
Me, the bolding I have done.

I just wanted you to think about what the quote seems to be saying - a mystery as an explanation.

A mystery is that which has no explanation.  Using 'mystery' as a qualifier is equivalent to turning off your brain's bulls**t detector.  Absolutely anything can serve as an explanation that is not demonstrably better or worse than any other explanation.

I read a book on memory where they tested the supposedly exact recall of traditional tribal storytellers. You know how we have been told that they can orally recite the entire history of the tribe from memory? Oral tradition is the basis of many cultural "histories", including the bible stories, so it is important to know if they are accurate.

Well, when the storytellers were recorded telling the same story several times on tape, the stories were not exactly the same. The people who heard the story could not hear the differences and the storyteller swore that it was the exact same story every time. Imagine how the differences mount up over many, many retellings--the hero is short, then after 100 years he is tall, 100 years later he's a giant, then a giant prince, then a giant king, and after 1000 years he's a god.
If you happen to stumble upon the title again, I'd be interested in reading this book.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline nogodsforme

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Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #308 on: August 24, 2012, 10:44:39 PM »
we can delve deeper into these ideas if you would like thanks again.

First, let me say, thank you for answering my questions.

Second, Yes, I would like to delve a little deeper.

I am glad to see you answered the question in a way I deem most rational and moral.  Were I in possession of the powers of a god, I would help people, expect nothing in return, perhaps not hide myself[1] and I certainly would not destroy them for not believing in me.

But as I see it, you have answered all these questions in exactly the opposite way as yhwh, the god of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Samuelke.  Gratefully, that makes you far kinder, generous, moral and rational than yhwh.  But then, it is not a major feat to be superior to a god that names himself "Jealous". 

To go through my questions one at a time, this god you worship:

1. does not help people.  At least, not in any way that is unambiguous or sensible.  For example, we have people who thank god for the touchdowns their team makes.  Yhwh loves the jets, apparently.  However, yhwh also seems to have overlooked starving children and worse.  Were I a god, I would see to it the jets never, ever won a game from my meddling, but no child would go hungry.  Additionally, I would personally see to it that no child would have to suffer abuse.  What does yhwh do for abused children?  Not a fucking thing.  Your god behaves as if he does not exist.  Why is that?

2. You and many other xians apologize for yhwh's lack of benevolence. You call it "free will", but I do not see how that plays into it.  If you mean yhwh leaves it for us to make our own mistakes, that's fine.  But it fails to explain so much suffering.  Natural disasters.  Accidents.  And the starving children thing.  I fail to see how a just god would allow your or my inaction, our sin, to make the lives of others miserable.  Is that what you would do with godlike power?  I wouldn't. 

3. yhwh hides.  You may feel like you have found him, but I have to tell you, Sam, I've searched and he's eluded me. And that's not just me, but a lot of people.  Even Mother Theresa.  Yhwh has done his best, if he exists, to conceal himself.   If xians are right and his "lives outside space and time", then he is completely inaccessible.

4.yhwh insists we believe in him and yet, many of us find no reason to do so.  You yourself said you would not do that.  So why worship a god who does?  If I had godlike powers and wanted a relationship with people, why hide?  I don't get it at all, Sam.

5.  Depending what flavor xian you talk to, yhwh does indeed destroy or punish infinitely those who do not accept him without evidence. You have said you don't think yhwh does this, but Sam, I cannot find him.  I've looked.  We live in the same universe.  Why is yhwh hiding form me and not you?


 1. I'm a bit of a misanthrope, so avoiding people might be best for all involved.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #309 on: August 25, 2012, 12:23:35 AM »
Samuelke, you don't think god is hidden in any sense?

Human beings can't measure, see, hear, touch or smell god. People who say they believe in god can't even describe him in a coherent way. Two theists in the same religion cannot agree on exactly what god is like and what he does and does not do. Sacred texts that purport to describe god are contradictory and confusing.

 Seems to me that God is hidden in every sense!
(bold purple mine)

If I could just weigh in here...  theists may not agree on what god is like because their experience is intentionally unique and personal.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #310 on: August 25, 2012, 03:10:20 AM »
Samuelke, you don't think god is hidden in any sense?

Human beings can't measure, see, hear, touch or smell god. People who say they believe in god can't even describe him in a coherent way. Two theists in the same religion cannot agree on exactly what god is like and what he does and does not do. Sacred texts that purport to describe god are contradictory and confusing.

 Seems to me that God is hidden in every sense!
(bold purple mine)

If I could just weigh in here...  theists may not agree on what god is like because their experience is intentionally unique and personal.

Which gives no credence to the concept that this "God" being has an existence that affects the world outside their skulls. In fact, it only serves to reinforce the concept that god is a fictional character. The imagined views of what is the nature of who is Rumpelstiltskin, his looks and actions vary wildly compared to, say, Abraham Lincoln.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Astreja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #311 on: August 26, 2012, 12:10:50 AM »
If I could just weigh in here...  theists may not agree on what god is like because their experience is intentionally unique and personal.

Spirituality does seem to vary widely from person to person, yes.   Assuming for a moment that there is an actual god involved, that raises the question of whether that god is at least partially manifesting within the person having the experience.  It doesn't make sense to have a god out there somewhere, and yet no consistency of experience.

I do think that pantheism or panentheism could explain the subjectivity better than a religion with a discrete, independent deity.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #312 on: August 26, 2012, 02:03:39 PM »
Samuelke, you don't think god is hidden in any sense?

Human beings can't measure, see, hear, touch or smell god. People who say they believe in god can't even describe him in a coherent way. Two theists in the same religion cannot agree on exactly what god is like and what he does and does not do. Sacred texts that purport to describe god are contradictory and confusing.

 Seems to me that God is hidden in every sense!
(bold purple mine)

If I could just weigh in here...  theists may not agree on what god is like because their experience is intentionally unique and personal.

Which gives no credence to the concept that this "God" being has an existence that affects the world outside their skulls. In fact, it only serves to reinforce the concept that god is a fictional character. The imagined views of what is the nature of who is Rumpelstiltskin, his looks and actions vary wildly compared to, say, Abraham Lincoln.

Do any two people experience anything exactly the same?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #313 on: August 26, 2012, 02:43:40 PM »
^ Rarely. 
However, the scientific method with proper procedures, does produce repeatable results regardless of who conducts the experiment.  God however is ENTIRELY dependent on sociocultural conditions in which they occur. 
My favorite example is speaking in tongues.  One church believes it is God moving divinely and making his spirit known, a block down the road a different congregation talks about how the "crazies" down the street are corrupting the idea of God by saying a bunch of nonsensical phrases.  Who is right?  Who is delusional?  Both.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #314 on: August 26, 2012, 05:26:21 PM »


Which gives no credence to the concept that this "God" being has an existence that affects the world outside their skulls. In fact, it only serves to reinforce the concept that god is a fictional character. The imagined views of what is the nature of who is Rumpelstiltskin, his looks and actions vary wildly compared to, say, Abraham Lincoln.

Do any two people experience anything exactly the same?

No. However that just is just avoiding my point with misdirection.  People will still very quite a bit on their opinion of Abraham Lincoln, and what he might have done in such and such hypothetical situation. After all they varied enough on those opinions enough to start a war where hundreds of thousands of people died. However there's going to me more agreement on something real as he was than something fictional like Rumpelstiltskin.

The concept, nature, and power of spirits, magic, and God or gods varies completely according to the culture of the speaker. Furthermore when attempted to be tested in a fashion that even attempts objectivity, they all fail. There's nothing to separate them from fiction, other than belief itself.

 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #315 on: August 27, 2012, 01:39:50 AM »
Ok let me not this is the first of two responses I'm going to give, this will be more general and the next I will approach some questions individually. I'm doing this because there is a lot being said, and I want to try my best to clear some of this up and I think the only way is one little step at a time, because of the huge amounts of information we are dealing with.

You all have only proven further that there is not a scientific way of proving that not only feelings are real thought and other things as well. To address one persons comments I'm talking only about having a thought or feeling not about if that feeling is credible. One person showed through statistics that feelings are real But math and science are two different disciplines, even though they do mingle with one another doesn't change anything though.

Let me tell you all now my own understanding of God in a few different ways. The scriptures for me comes first and mainly Jesus there, and we will just need a whole different thread on the bibles integrity and the contradictions you all say it has. Then comes my prayer and relationship with God, and then science to me continues to unfold more and more of the mystery of nature. Science continues to show the complexity in the universe, if you are at all scientific you can admit the nature and life of the universe has this perfect underlying balance, some times it seems chaotic others orderly, a little scary but other times extremely beautiful. The laws of nature as well a seem less coherency, to me all these things help me understand God's nature.

To add a little there I just want to say that in mind of all this balance, complexity, and marvelous intelligence we find in the universe, to say that all of it came from nothing and one day it will all be nothing again is a bigger leap of faith. If we are just going to poof out of existence forever When we die, I don't see why there is any reason for us to try and do good and why should we cherish things such as nature and love, because if all things in the cosmos will eventually be totally extinct, then there will be no drop of any memory of anything at all.(the laws of thermodynamics stating the eventual heat death of the cosmos)

I know I have a lot of answering still to do, I just also have many questions for you all as well.

I'm really not trying to beat around the bush or be obtuse or anything like that, I'm really trying to understand where each of you is coming from. I know I have done a slightly poor job, especially some of my very first posts on the site, at being clear and really getting to the real heart of your questions. I'm really sorry again for that, I know I have Said it a lot but I really have not be clear enough a number of times. Part of it was the large amounts of questions all at once, and the other larger portion was me being too broad and giving much too quick of explanations.



But it is through the Bibile, relationship with God, and his revealing of himself through his creation( which is stated throughout the entire Bible) proves to me without a doubt, that God does exist. Now of course I can't prove it for a fact to you all, but I would like to try and show you the rationality behind it but we will see how that goes I guess. But to conclude there, I don't hang my belief on any one thing listed, it is the coherent set of all of them.

The reason I've said a lot of this is because many times in questioning it is portrayed like I'm hanging my faith on one thing, and that's just not it at all. It is going to take me a while to explain everything and maybe even a few different threads.

I find this and many qoutes similar pretty interesting:

“[Reason tells me of the] extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capability of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity.  When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist.”
–Charles Darwin, as quoted in his autobiography.



And

“You accept the historical Jesus?”

“Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.”

–Albert Einstein, from an interview with the Saturday Evening Post

Finally


“I have looked into most philosophical systems and I have seen that none will work without God.”

“Science is incompetent to reason upon the creation of matter itself out of nothing.  We have reached the utmost limit of our thinking faculties when we have admitted that because matter cannot be eternal and self-existent it must have been created.”

–Physicist and mathematician James Clerk Maxwell, who is credited with formulating classical electromagnetic theory and whose contributions to science are considered to be of the same magnitude to those of Einstein and Newton.


“God is a mathematician of a very high order and He used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”

–Nobel Prize winning physicist Paul A. M. Dirac, who made crucial early contributions to both quantum mechanics and quantum electrodynamics.

.

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

“In the history of science, ever since the famous trial of Galileo, it has repeatedly been claimed that scientific truth cannot be reconciled with the religious interpretation of the world. Although I am now convinced that scientific truth is unassailable in its own field, I have never found it possible to dismiss the content of religious thinking as simply part of an outmoded phase in the consciousness of mankind, a part we shall have to give up from now on. Thus in the course of my life I have repeatedly been compelled to ponder on the relationship of these two regions of thought, for I have never been able to doubt the reality of that to which they point.”

–Werner Heisenberg, who was awarded the 1932 Nobel Prize in Physics for the creation of quantum mechanics (which is absolutely crucial to modern science).

.
“I believe in God. It makes no sense to me to assume that the Universe and our existence is just a cosmic accident, that life emerged due to random physical processes in an environment which simply happened to have the right properties. As a Christian I begin to comprehend what life is all about through belief in a Creator, some of whose nature was revealed by a man born about 2000 years ago.”

–Antony Hewish,  winner of the 1974 Nobel Prize in Physics for his discovery of pulsars.

I'll stop  sorry I'm just trying to choose some directed towards the questions, that doesn't mean I'm not going to give my own answers, I will I'm not just depending on other people, simply showing what some, I'll say extremely intelligent people have said.

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #316 on: August 27, 2012, 06:03:49 AM »
I have GOT to stop reading your posts right before I have to leave!

Real quick though... stop appealing to authority.  It is a logical fallacy for a reason.... its a false way of looking at the world, or at least a false way of divining truth.

Second, we do not worship Charles Darwin, and Einstein was likely an atheist or maaaaaybe a deist, but that may be stretching, you have to really pick and choose to make him look like a theist though. (also, the "historical person", just means that he believed he existed as a man <which there is shockingly little proof for a man who claimed to be God> and says nothing about divinity).
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Offline screwtape

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #317 on: August 27, 2012, 07:02:52 AM »
Sam,

you have to look out for religious quotes of scientists. They are taken out of context and used dishonestly by the religious almost 100% of the time.


–Albert Einstein, from an interview with the Saturday Evening Post

"the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

"For me, the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

-Albert Einstein, letter to Eric Gutkind
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24598856/



–Physicist and mathematician James Clerk Maxwell,

Died in 1879.  A man of his time, as we all are.  What we know now would make his eyes pop out of his sockets. 


–Nobel Prize winning physicist Paul A. M. Dirac, who made crucial early contributions to both quantum mechanics and quantum electrodynamics.

You'll notice that quote is truncated and does not indicate that it was.  The whole quote:
Quote
It seems to be one of the fundamental features of nature that fundamental physical laws are described in terms of a mathematical theory of great beauty and power, needing quite a high standard of mathematics for one to understand it. You may wonder: Why is nature constructed along these lines? One can only answer that our present knowledge seems to show that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could perhaps describe the situation by saying that God is a mathematician of a very high order, and He used very advanced mathematics in constructing the universe. Our feeble attempts at mathematics enable us to understand a bit of the universe, and as we proceed to develop higher and higher mathematics we can hope to understand the universe better.

Another quote by Dirac:

Quote
If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Dirac#Religious_views



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Offline Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #318 on: August 27, 2012, 11:07:55 AM »
To add a little there I just want to say that in mind of all this balance, complexity, and marvelous intelligence we find in the universe, to say that all of it came from nothing and one day it will all be nothing again is a bigger leap of faith.

Seriously, who are these atheists that claims the universe came from "nothing"?

What does "be nothing again" even mean?

Also, even if it is a "bigger leap of faith", why do you consider this a Bad Thing?  Religion is about having faith.  The more, the better.


Quote
If we are just going to poof out of existence forever When we die, I don't see why there is any reason for us to try and do good and why should we cherish things such as nature and love, because if all things in the cosmos will eventually be totally extinct, then there will be no drop of any memory of anything at all.(the laws of thermodynamics stating the eventual heat death of the cosmos)

Nature and love exists now.  That is the reason we cherish them.  We exists now.  We are not living 30 billions years from now (or however long the heat death of the universe is suppose to be).  Beside, does something have to last forever for you to value something?  A house will not last forever, so why bother buying a home?  Marriage will either end with death or divorce, so why bother getting married?  A pet will eventually die, so why bother getting a cat?  The simple answer to all of those is that the time now is what matters.  We have to make use of that time before it's gone.

Also, I doubt there are very many atheists that thinks "well, the universe will be gone someday, so why even bother?".  In fact, the only ones I see making argument are theists.
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