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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #203 on: August 09, 2012, 11:04:00 AM »
*snip*

This here is it, we must not only take the context of the passages around it in the scripture but also the historical context to which people God originally intended this mesage to and what was going on around these people. Only then can we really understand the bible and it's true meaning which is being blurred.

This is part of the problem Sam.  Here we get into a situation with SPAG (see other post on the subject), where Hebrews at the time created God in their own image.  Certainly Jews and Christians look at situations of extreme violence and hate in the Bible and say this was a product off the action that needed to be taken at the time. 

The simpler and likely more honest approach is that the Hebrews at the time simply wanted to commit these acts of violence in order to ensure their regional power (we are talking about a bronze-age-tribal society), and created god in their image to allow for such atrocities as morally correct.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #204 on: August 09, 2012, 11:57:48 AM »
...the Hebrews at the time simply wanted to commit these acts of violence in order to ensure their regional power

Or, they never happened - at least not that way - and the hebrews were making up stories or exaggerating them to sound totally awesome.  The hebrews never had much regional power.  They were always stuck between superpowers Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia. 
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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #205 on: August 09, 2012, 12:15:13 PM »
^ Im aware of that, just saying.

The Bible can easily been seen as a book written by men to give them justification for their actions in seeking power and prosperity.  Historically accurate or not.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #206 on: August 09, 2012, 12:19:01 PM »
And no it is a combination of how awe filling heaven will be and our knowledge of evil. I think in my opinion the suffering teaches us but he doesn't want us to suffer it is our own doing. You can not say there is more evil outside of what humans have caused in things like natural disasters and so on. Even cancer most of it comes from something we have done or made, starvation is caused by the political leaders and other people who do that to people. But in this world which we can't change how things work we have good and evil and without that evil good would be the most boring thing on the planet. But this suffering argument would hold more ground to me if it weren't true that meaninglessness does not come from being weary of pain, but meaninglessness comes from being weary of pleasure.

Sam, on another thread started by you, I posted a reply to your assertion that if god diminished suffering it would violate freewill. As it received no response then and you have re-addressed the subject here, allow me to resurrect[1] it now:

None are greater but love can't exist without free will meaning conformity and the forceing of love destroys it. A perfect world would be robotic and programmed. Another thing to consider is pain and why our life would need it. I can't remember the name of this ailment but it cause a person to be completely numb to pain and unable to perspire. But a person with this has to always be watched by someone because of the danger of them not knowing they are bleeding profusely. So we see some reason for pain. <snip>

 It even says once you are a believer you will continue to see and feel pain and or evil and or suffering...

I agree that a world utterly without pain and suffering would not be in mankind's best interest. Pain and suffering alert us to things that are physically or emotionally harmful to us, and this type of mechanism is necessary for the overall growth of the species.

Its the extensive and excessive (and unnecessary) suffering so prevalent in this world to which I refer. It is not a sin, my dear xtian, to be born in an impoverished area, but millions of children suffer every day of their lives for it. Surely the god who the bible says rained manna down from heaven would see fit to provide these folks with some food to eat, right? And it wouldn't even have to be as dramatic as the whole manna thing. Simply 'designing' a new, nutrient-rich crop that could be easily cultivated and thrive in harsh climates would do it. And it wouldn't even violate that precious 'free-will' clause most xtians so desperately cling to. If such a crop existed, we would just accept it as fact and move on. Meanwhile, prolonged human suffering in this world would be greatly diminished.

I know, I know, its the cruel warlords that control the food supply in many of these places, and god can't interfere with free-will in those cases (standard xtian response in other similar threads). But I call BS on that, as well. A nice, strategic heart attack here and there would work wonders in that department:

Mugabe: "OK men, you must go collect the shipments of rice that just arrived from the Red Cross. Do not let any villagers have any, and kill anybody who tries to stop you."

Soldiers on Mugabe's payroll: "Yes, Boss!"

Mugabe: "Actually, you can pretty much kill as many of the locals as you wish, just make sure to bring those rice bundles back her...AAAGH!...chest tightening...arm...numb...hard to...breathe..."<collapses to floor>.

Soldiers: "Boss! Boss! You OK?"

Soldier 1: "I think he's dead!"

Soldier 2: "OMG, what should we do? Should we still seize the rice bundles?"

Soldier 1: "Hell no, that shit's heavy. Let's grab his wallet and get the hell out of here!"


People die of heart attacks all the time, so no one would be the wiser. Of course, god couldn't kill all these bastards the same way or we might be on to him. He would have to get creative and throw in some fatal car wrecks, plane crashes, flesh eating bacteria, who knows? There are plenty of ways to die. God could even make the guy trip and shoot himself with his own gun, wouldn't that be fitting?

The best part of this arrangement would be that xtians would say god is helping us by getting rid of evil people, but we atheists would still say it was just a coincidence and not evidence of god. Suffering is diminished and free-will remains intact.

 1. Pun intended :D

edit: grammar
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 12:28:05 PM by DumpsterFire »
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Offline jtk73

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #207 on: August 09, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »
the historical context to which people God originally intended this mesage to and what was going on around these people. Only then can we really understand the bible and it's true meaning which is being blurred.
Wait..what? "originally intended"? This is the bible you are talking about. This is the Christian holy text! This is, according to Christian's, the ultimate instruction booklet. If God loves everyone and wants everyone to be able to join him in Good Time Happy Land, the "intended" audience would be EVERYONE THAT HAS EVER OR WILL EVERY EXIST! It needs to be accessible (read comprehensible) to everyone from 2000 years ago, today, even 2000 years in the future. The bible is none of that. It is the absolute worst instruction manual in the universe. If your god inspired/wrote it, he is a bumbling idiot or if he dictated it to men and they screwed it up then he's a bumbling idiot for leaving it up to them/allowing it to become screwed up. It's a fucking instruction manual for "not pissing off a whiny, petty, vengeful god"! It should consist of "Do this", "Don't do this"! No begats. No poetry. No wild acid trip (Revelations). Just simple, straightforward instructions.

Offline Astreja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #208 on: August 09, 2012, 11:23:33 PM »
{A scripture} should consist of "Do this", "Don't do this"! No begats. No poetry. No wild acid trip (Revelations). Just simple, straightforward instructions.

For the most part I agree, with one caveat:  According to what I've read about the human unconscious mind, it's apparently not capable of handling statements phrased in the negative.  (I also think that it deals with images and symbols rather than language, which is why a phrase like "Don't think of a pink elephant" will quickly inflict a herd of rosy pachyderms upon your visual cortex.)

Therefore -- And this is what I did when I wrote My own scripture -- I think it's critical to enumerate only the positive versions of the traits you want reproduced.  If you go around saying "Thou shalt not" to people, the black box of the unconscious filters out the "not" part and installs the "shalt" version of the paradigm.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #209 on: August 10, 2012, 03:38:04 AM »
From the first of Sam's links to RZIM:

Quote
There’s no getting around the fact that there are troubling stories in the Old Testament. What does that say about God and the Christian faith? This week on Let My People think, guest speaker John Dickson takes a look at this important topic.

Now, I'm sure Mr. Dickson can find a way to choke down the genocide and mass-rape stories of the Bible, even if in terms of cognitive dissonance it feels like a horse pill going down sideways."  And since you (Sam) shared the link, apparently you can, too.  I can't listen to the audio where I'm at, but my guess is it's something along the lines of, "Well, those Canaanites sacrificed their first-born children to their gods!  And killing children iswrong!  So the obvious answer is to kill the rest of their children too!  For our god!" 

I'm not so interested in bothering to rebut such mental gymnastics.  What I find curious is, if the Bible is in some sense authored by a superhuman, super-ethical entity, why should there be such "troubling" Biblical stories in the first place?  Note that they are not troubling because they represent such a high moral plane that they make us feel like squirming maggots by comparison, no: they sanction the exact types of behaviors we associate with the very worst human monsters, people like Genghis Khan, Hitler, and Stalin.

Imagine that a gleaming spacecraft were to come down and land in Central Park.  Its occupants profess to come from a society a million years in advance of our own, that became a Crystal Spires and Togas Utopia long ago.  And they have come to share their wisdom and enlightenment with us.  Let us go further and assume that they are also vastly superior to humans in intellectual and emotional intelligence, psychological development, perception, intuition, the whole ball of wax.  Their preschoolers can think like Einstein, compose music like Mozart, write like Shakespeare, and create art like Michelangelo.

Then let's say they handed over a book that contained the very height and apotheosis of their accomplishments.  What sort of things might you expect it to contain?  What sort of things would, if found within, make you think, "Waaaait a minute!  These people aren't an advanced utopian super-civilization!  They're evil space invaders!"
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #210 on: August 10, 2012, 04:56:47 AM »
Think about how people would then start living their lives if God did the thing you all want him to do. We live In a cause and effect world it sounds like you all want to take the effect out of it, that we all can act however we please and God would just bail us out every time we were in a jam.....

.....the implications I speak about are those of how humans would start behaving knowing that all prayers would be answered. We would then start to think we were all powerful and indestructible. .....

I love the way you want to twist things to make it out like we are asking for something like:

Prayer: "oh god, I've just missed my bus, please make time go back a few seconds so I can catch it"
Yahweh: "Sure thing, true believer!"

Utter rot.  Nobody is saying that at all.  We're talking about things that actually matter.  Like, for example....

Prayer: "oh god, please stop this gang from raping me - I'm only 14 and I want to go home"
Yahweh: ""

Prayer: "oh god, please take the cancer away from my baby.  She's screaming in pain all the time and doesn't understand what's going on."
Yahweh: ""

Prayer: "oh god, please make it rain just a little.  My crops won't grow and my children are dying of starvation."
Yahweh: ""

Or how's about this?  My collague told me today that his niece has been diagnosed with a form of Tourette's.  It means she will have severre learning difficulties, curvature of the spine....basically, will be severely physically and mentally damaged all her "life".  You can imagine how her parents feel....she's 2 years old.

Prayer: "oh god, please make our little girl well."
Yahweh: ""

Newsflash - your god DOES stay out of things - and look all the bad stuff that happens.  So you answer me honestly: are you REALLY trying to tell me that a world where your god stepped in and answered "big" prayers like the four I listed above would somehow be a worse world than the one where he sits on his cloud and does nothing?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Boots

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #211 on: August 10, 2012, 09:49:43 AM »
For the most part I agree, with one caveat:  According to what I've read about the human unconscious mind, it's apparently not capable of handling statements phrased in the negative.  (I also think that it deals with images and symbols rather than language, which is why a phrase like "Don't think of a pink elephant" will quickly inflict a herd of rosy pachyderms upon your visual cortex.)
.
Therefore -- And this is what I did when I wrote My own scripture -- I think it's critical to enumerate only the positive versions of the traits you want reproduced.  If you go around saying "Thou shalt not" to people, the black box of the unconscious filters out the "not" part and installs the "shalt" version of the paradigm.

Too bad the all-powerful diety who created our minds forgot that design flaw and wrote the laws the way he did.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #212 on: August 10, 2012, 09:53:55 AM »
maybe the third time is a charm?

Sam, these questions are for you...

If you had the super powers of god, if you had the magic to do anything, would you use them to help people? 
Would it be immoral if you did not?
Would you hide from people?
Would you insist they believe in you without seeing you?
Would you destroy them if they didn't love you?
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Offline natlegend

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #213 on: August 14, 2012, 01:35:17 AM »
...and Sam's silence speaks volumes...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #214 on: August 14, 2012, 07:56:54 AM »
...and Sam's silence speaks volumes...

I was just thinking that.
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #215 on: August 14, 2012, 08:09:50 AM »
And they're yes-or-no questions.  It's not like responding would be a lot of work.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #216 on: August 14, 2012, 08:44:59 AM »
And they're yes-or-no questions.  It's not like responding would be a lot of work.

I'm not so sure about that.  If he gives the "human" answers, then he needs to rationalise why he would do something that god apparently doesn't want done.  That takes a lot of time and/or apologetics-searching.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #217 on: August 15, 2012, 12:33:48 AM »
Alright I'm gonna try my best here to give an answer to some of these questions, I'm sorry about missing questions I'm not meaning too I promise I just started back to classes and there is just a lot here but I really am gonna try and start being more individual in my answering I really apologize for that.
Ok so I can sit here and go over all the different commentaries on and explanations of these verses at hand and no where does it say that what you all have implied is true. A lot, if not most of the bible is using metaphors, like when Jesus said he was the door he didn't mean it literally he was wooden. What he meant was he was the way to the father, the words spoken are not literal but the meaning of the literary device is literal. So here if you would like I can go further but I think when you really consider everything here, the context and all the bible says you just can't take it all to be literal. And the bible writers were mainly writing to the people of their time, if not only in the fact of the language difference and there is many more here. But thanks to movements like the reformation and such, the bible today is very accurate, what can you say to the fact that the bible is the most documented ancient text out of any like homer and so on? But the main mesage in the bible being Jesus, is still the same today as when it was first preached.

Ok so this is how I see this, our free will is indeed free will but when we take a closer look there is more to it. The bible tells us that sin or evil is a violation of purpose. Like one of you said it is the logical thing to respect one another it is better for all. The word tells us that God has a individual purpose for all of us, unique like our fingerprint. And as we all have this moral sense inside us, God said after the fall of man, here is your free will but I'm giving you these moral boundaries in which to live by which are not only for the better of you but also your neighbor. Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean we dont have a chance, with every decision we make, to improve and better our lives and others. Because it is clear bad or evil decisions lead to bad things happening, one man thinks he right to kill people and millions suffer greatly. The bible says such bad things about sin because of all the suffering it inflicts, however we have the choice in life every moment as to what kind of person we will be, for some people they are influenced by God to decide and others say they are not. I ask this, the last century or so has seen the largest rise in atheism ever, and in that same time there has been more human bloodshed then all the centuries before combined? Could this this be because denying God denies an absolute moral framework and gives rise to making your own and some do good and the rest not. Alright I'm sorry that's gotta be all for tonight I gotta wake up soon for class I will try to give more answer attempts tomorrow sorry for my lack of post I'm gonna work harder at that.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #218 on: August 15, 2012, 02:31:11 AM »
Alright I'm gonna try my best here to give an answer to some of these questions, I'm sorry about missing questions I'm not meaning too I promise....I will try to give more answer attempts tomorrow sorry for my lack of post I'm gonna work harder at that.

Unfortunately, when you DO post, you don't seem able to actually focus on the questions you have been asked.  We're not too worried if you only post once a day - what DOES bother us is when that once-a-day - when it comes - turns into a glurge that avoids all the important questions you have been asked.

Sam, probably the best way to go about things is not to try to give an all encompassing reply that avoids the specific questions you have been asked.  And you have been asked many - for your convenience I list them below.  Yes - there are a lot, unfortunately.

My advice would be to pick one.  Check back and read the full context of the original post to ensure that you "get" the question.  And then answer it.  Be specific.  Then move on to the next question.

Okay - here they are:

If you had the super powers of god, if you had the magic to do anything, would you use them to help people?  Would it be immoral if you did not?
Would you hide from people?
Would you insist they believe in you without seeing you?
Would you destroy them if they didn't love you?

So you answer me honestly: are you REALLY trying to tell me that a world where your god stepped in and answered "big" prayers like the four I listed above would somehow be a worse world than the one where he sits on his cloud and does nothing?

Then let's say (the advanced aliens) handed over a book that contained the very height and apotheosis of their accomplishments.  What sort of things might you expect it to contain?  What sort of things would, if found within, make you think, "Waaaait a minute!  These people aren't an advanced utopian super-civilization!  They're evil space invaders!"

Am I unable to choose evil in heaven or will I simply have learned my lessons so thoroughly in life that I'd never, ever, for all eternity choose to commit an act of evil?

If the former, why wouldn't god just make me unable to choose evil now?

If the latter, is there some 'quota' of life-suffering that needs to be reached to get to that state?  Did the 6-year that got killed in the car crash learn enough lessons in life to be admitted to heaven?  Does the 6-year old go to hell?  Is the 6-year old reincarnated to get a chance to learn more?

And final question: once I have placed my trust in a particular god, read their holy texts, and determined I am doing everything right....how long should I carry on with that faith's style of devotion before concluding that THAT faith is false?  I'm more than halfway through my lifetime....with hundreds of faiths to try, how long can I afford to devote to any one particular god without success before I should move on to the next?

This god had every opportunity to include a passage saying "Please don't rape your fellow human beings- it's morally wrong" but instead puts a monetary price on rape. Fuck the traumatized rape victim and her broken psyche and body I guess. There isn't even scripture on how to comfort her or help heal her. This is your disgusting god Sam, not mine. It's embarrassing that you worship such a being. Or more accurately, it's embarrassing that you don't realize you're worshipping such a being because you've been too lazy to read the damn Bible for yourself, cover to cover.

And that's not all.  The sixth chapter of Genesis tells us of a second angelic rebellion, a mass defection of angels to Earth.  These defectors preferred the prosaic delights of marriage to human women, home, and family to the glories of Heaven.

Isn't it fairly obvious that if you have a regime, where large numbers of residents are jumping over the wall to escape, that it's not all it's cracked up to be?  How do you know you'll be happy in Heaven?

Guys: let's give Sam a chance.  I know that when he returns he will give a direct answer to one (or more) of the above.  So can we refrain please from asking him any additional questions until he has had a chance to work through these?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 02:34:10 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #219 on: August 15, 2012, 02:54:53 AM »
A lot, if not most of the bible is using metaphors, like when Jesus said he was the door he didn't mean it literally he was wooden. What he meant was he was the way to the father, the words spoken are not literal but the meaning of the literary device is literal. So here if you would like I can go further but I think when you really consider everything here, the context and all the bible says you just can't take it all to be literal.

OK Sam, I don't think its much of a stretch to assume Jesus was not literally calling himself a door. That one is pretty easy. But who gets to decide how much of the rest of the Bible is literal or metaphor? You? Why is it that so many xtians do not give any credence to the Bible verses condemning the eating of shellfish or the mixing of fabrics, but stand firmly against homosexuality because of the handful of bible verses against it? If you can decide that the shellfish and fabric mixing verses do not represent the modern mindset and are relics of a bygone era, you can decide the same about the 'gay' verses.
Seriously, if some of the things represented as the word of god in the Bible can be easily discarded, why can't all of them?

I ask this, the last century or so has seen the largest rise in atheism ever, and in that same time there has been more human bloodshed then all the centuries before combined? Could this be because denying God denies an absolute moral framework and gives rise to making your own and some do good and the rest not?

I am actually surprised you made this provocative assertion, and I hope you are prepared for the repercussions it will surely bring.

Technological advances in the last century have given man the ability to kill others far more efficiently than ever before. Period. To correlate that with the recent increase in atheism due to the rise of the information age is utterly absurd.
The vast majority of military conflicts in the last 100 years, including the present one in Afghanistan, were waged at the behest of a theist who believed god supported it.

Mankind is no more inclined toward bloodshed now than it has ever been, it is simply far more adept at it.
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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #220 on: August 15, 2012, 05:49:10 AM »
the bible today is very accurate, what can you say to the fact that the bible is the most documented ancient text out of any like homer and so on?

Sam, DO NOT RESPOND TO ME, there are tons of other posts I would rather you address than mine.

So, rhetorically- You do know that just because something is repeated a bunch of times doesn't make it true right? "Obama was born in Kenya" "Obama was born in Kenya" "Obama was born in Kenya" "Obama was born in Kenya" "Obama was born in Kenya" See.... no more true the first time than the last.  Secondly, when the Christian church makes a concerted effort to DESTROY texts that are NOT the Bible, it kinda makes it unfair to compare.  They didn't call the "Dark Ages" "Dark" for nothing.
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #221 on: August 15, 2012, 05:57:35 AM »
I ask this, the last century or so has seen the largest rise in atheism ever, and in that same time there has been more human bloodshed then all the centuries before combined? Could this this be because denying God denies an absolute moral framework and gives rise to making your own and some do good and the rest not.

The answer is no. If you read the news, you will see that much, if not most, of the bloodshed in the world today is caused by people acting on or motivated by their religious beliefs.

Your posts have degenerated into waffling nonsense. You barely attempt to answer anyone’s specific questions. All you are giving us is baseless assertions predicated on your assumption that your God is real. Anfauglir has taken the trouble to list nearly all the questions you’ve evaded. Please try to answer those questions.

Anfauglir missed some of my requests to you. In my last post to you (#202 on the previous page) I asked you to prove to us that your God is real because if it isn’t then no Christian beliefs that depend on it are worthy of consideration. You can waffle on about Jesus and the Bible as much as you like, but if your God isn’t real then Jesus wasn’t its son or your God incarnate and anything written in the Bible about your God is simply make believe. So, if you want us to give any consideration to what you have to say about your God, the first thing you need to do is provide some sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that it is even real.

Offline willwgp86

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #222 on: August 15, 2012, 10:37:57 AM »
Sam, I ask you this ... you say we have free will and our actions are all destined by God, meaning God has a purpose for each one of us, he knows what we are going to do in our lifetime ... I hate to use this example because it's so inhumane, but it's happening ... millions of unborn children are aborted every year, almost 40 million of them! ... and God says it's all part of "His plan????" What god in their right mind would ALLOW something like that, right now??? This leads me to believe that there IS NO GOD.

You can respond to me or not, I know you have a lot going against you on this thread right now, but it is something to ponder about on your way home tonight.

But to answer your question ... my world views without God make life a whole lot simpler. I can breathe pure oxygen knowing that if I die, I lived a really good life and I'm really happy with what I've done so far, and the intellectual conversations I've had, and the oyster roasts and awesome food I've enjoyed along the way. Life is what we make it, not what some god makes it.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 10:40:04 AM by willwgp86 »

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #223 on: August 15, 2012, 09:57:13 PM »
Ok I did say sorry about not doing a good job on specific questions I start now on doing better. 


Quote from: screwtape on August 08, 2012, 07:45:41 AM
Quote
If you had the super powers of god, if you had the magic to do anything, would you use them to help people?  Would it be immoral if you did not?
Would you hide from people?
Would you insist they believe in you without seeing you?
Would you destroy them if they didn't love you?

Well this question is very interesting to me and important in many senses but I have my own questions about the questions themselves. Seeing how I'm human it is basically not possible for me or any of us to say what we would do if we had those powers. Do you mean if I had the same exact mind and conscious I have now what would I do? That just doesn't make much sense to me I dont know for sure if that's what you meant but gaing such powers I think logically would change other things about you or me.

To answer I'd say I would  do as much good as I could without changing and messing up the balance of this world with all the possibilities it makes like the love you can experience and things of that nature.

I think what helped me understand some of this was the biblical story of Balaam, how he keeps saying he gets the same answer from God yet in the end he chooses in multiple situations almost the worst choices possible which God told him not to. And we see God can try and gets things through to us but there comes a point when he respects our free will enough to say fine have it your way.

Now I'll take a story about Jesus, a desciple asked if Jesus would prove what he was saying by a miracle that he could see. Jesus did so and said that it is much easier for those who have seen but the ones who believe and haven't seen that takes more strength. Personally it takes far more faith to believe in anything else whether it's any other religion or naturalism or anything else.

What is a better way for this higher power being of sorts, to reveal and resonate with humans then to send himself to us in human form to try and get his message across.

For me right now in life it is much harder for me to come to terms with not believing this then to believe. you have no proof for many things you stated I would suggest, that God does no good in the world, that he destroys people for not loving him.

To really answer I would do things just the way the God Christ spoke about in the bible. I know you all think the bible says that God approves and does many bad things but I will do my best to show why I think otherwise.

I believe in the bible where it says the God knows more then we will ever know and he is perfect and I believe he can do a better job at what he does then me with these super powers could ever do. God reveals himself to me everyday I haven't given the best examples so far I'll concede that with ease.

For me the best way to start everyday is with God and in the word, now there are many days I don't get to do this but I try and get better with it. For these struggles we face daily in life, emotional and existential  and all the battles we face, and also all the other experiences in life, it is all these things that I promise there Is direct connection there is no way to me in my thinking, it is a coincidence I find his guidance and presence make everything not so much always easier, but it fills me with more love and compassion in a way I used to not experience ever at all. He enables me to see joy and love in places I never thought I could or would see it before.

On another note this is pretty important to me I think we might be able to agree here but we Will see, a lot of the time when wars have been and are fought by people claiming to be divinely just in the bloodshed, what many don't see at first what is really going on here is a radical person claiming this faith both doing the exact opposite of the teachings. Our western media does this lovely deed of naming all islamics like this as radicals, but no such term is used for Christians like this, they just say they are Christians. While some of them may be and some may not be claiming to be but either way what they are doing is against the true Christian theology, Jesus's life and teachings like to love your enemies and instead of fighting showing them love, that is what he used to battle with love and I think the story about the women with the alabaster ointment and all of the ideas it unfolds there. Sorry for getting off topic next I'll move from question to question best I can but while I have put some opinions out there you all have done the same.

edited for readability
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 08:02:03 AM by screwtape »

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #224 on: August 15, 2012, 10:10:21 PM »
Personally it takes far more faith to believe in anything else whether it's any other religion or naturalism or anything else.

Sam, Im sorry.  This is going to sound kind of mean.  This is not my intention... But.... DO YOU HAVE ANY FREAKING IDEA HOW DUMB THIS SOUNDS?!?!?

If I am understanding you correctly, you are basically saying that for you to believe science requires more faith than does for you to believe... your faith.
One is by its very definition based on provable, testable fact
The other is by its very definition, based on faith

I.... I..... I dont know what to say at this point. Otherwise its going to go into a curse filled rant, and as irritated as I am you dont quite deserve that.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #225 on: August 15, 2012, 10:24:31 PM »
Ok I did say sorry about not doing a good job on specific questions I start now on doing better. 


Quote from: screwtape on August 08, 2012, 07:45:41 AM
If you had the super powers of god, if you had the magic to do anything, would you use them to help people?  Would it be immoral if you did not?
Would you hide from people?
Would you insist they believe in you without seeing you?
Would you destroy them if they didn't love you?

Samuelke, why did you quote screwtape's questions if you weren't going to bother to answer them?  This may be less overwhelming for you if you just focus on the questions asked, rather than delve into some uncorrelated-weirdly-shaped-tangentially-almost-related-variant of the questions asked of you?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline wright

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #226 on: August 15, 2012, 10:43:24 PM »
Sam, would you please, please, please use more line breaks in your posts! I'm interested in your views, even though I'm not participating in this thread, but to be confronted with such enormous

Walls O' Text

is discouraging.

I appreciate that you are one of the few theists on this forum and admire your civility and patience, but all we can use to judge each other with here are our words. I know it sounds petty, but I'm more inclined to read and consider someone's arguments if that person presents their case a few paragraphs at a time, not as a single citadel-block of print. 

 
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #227 on: August 15, 2012, 11:09:33 PM »
Personally it takes far more faith to believe in anything else whether it's any other religion or naturalism or anything else.

Sam, Im sorry.  This is going to sound kind of mean.  This is not my intention... But.... DO YOU HAVE ANY FREAKING IDEA HOW DUMB THIS SOUNDS?!?!?

If I am understanding you correctly, you are basically saying that for you to believe science requires more faith than does for you to believe... your faith
One is by its very definition based on provable, testable fact
The other is by its very definition, based on faith

I.... I..... I dont know what to say at this point. Otherwise its going to go into a curse filled rant, and as irritated as I am you dont quite deserve that.

        Ok I see why you would be angry at me for what you have said but let me say this, for me and how I have heard many Christian scientist and non-Christian scientist say that views on science and on the bible don't have to be one or the other unless that is how you'd like it. But I believe in both I wasn't clear about that sorry, I think science is very useful and has many amazing uses and along with history, literature, math these are all things that we all should try our best to learn as much as possible. If any christian is saying they disbelieve in all science I'd say you've got some real problems there. Science is just one of the many tools of understanding if you will, we have to learn about this immensely complex world and intricate life we live. 

   I don't think it is logically possible or consistent to only believe science and that it has all the answers to mans existence and the universes origin. I heard in one debate between a Christian and non-christian and the non-Christian said that he thought from listening to his atheistic friends that they had to have more faith for what they believed then his friends that believe in God and he didnt have enough faith in either one to claim any. I respect that and I respect yours and everyone on here's belief we all should be able to believe in what we think is right and true. Can you show me how science explains all of life's questions better then the bible more specifically Christ?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 11:27:04 PM by Samuelke »

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #228 on: August 15, 2012, 11:25:37 PM »
Sam, would you please, please, please use more line breaks in your posts! I'm interested in your views, even though I'm not participating in this thread, but to be confronted with such enormous

Walls O' Text

is discouraging.

I appreciate that you are one of the few theists on this forum and admire your civility and patience, but all we can use to judge each other with here are our words. I know it sounds petty, but I'm more inclined to read and consider someone's arguments if that person presents their case a few paragraphs at a time, not as a single citadel-block of print.

I hear your request and I know I said before I would do better but I will do that from now on my bad it's the years of writing poetry and essays I love writing but I truly and clearly lack just about all possible grammar skills.

But I Will do better at this and put in more line breaks, I understand I'm the same way though to me it's much more reader friendly that way. I knew I wasn't doing a good job with the line breaks but that was just how it was naturally rolling out all big gross and Bulky. I just get so into it every time I respond and let my emotions get the best of me too much and forget totally. And seeing how my normal posting time is about 4 in the morning and waking up from 6 to about 8, so I'm delirious pretty much out of my mind tired and forgetful. So I've been trying and will keep trying to post earlier to have my memory fully intact.

Thank you though for your kind words really, and a big thanks to who posted out the list of questions and then giving me a chance, I really understand it can be hard to do. I feel as though over the last 10 to 20 years there has been a rise in ignorance in Christians, not only they don't know at all how to support their beliefs but they wish to make no effort in trying to support it. And I don't mean to point fingers at anyone I know I have said posted some things that had to much of my opinion in it.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 11:52:46 PM by Samuelke »

Offline Zankuu

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #229 on: August 15, 2012, 11:29:42 PM »
Can you show me how science explains all of life's questions better then the bible more specifically Christ?

How many examples do you require?

On one hand, we have the scientific method which gave us the germ theory of disease; the realistic way of healing the sick by treating them with antibiotics. On the other hand we have instructions on how to sprinkle bird blood on a leper and Jesus casting demons out of people and into pigs; the Biblical way to deal with the sickly.

Science:1
Bible:0

We should keep score.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline wright

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #230 on: August 16, 2012, 12:25:20 AM »

        I don't think it is logically possible or consistent to only believe science and that it has all the answers to mans existence and the universes origin. I heard in one debate between a Christian and non-christian and the non-Christian said that he thought from listening to his atheistic friends that they had to have more faith for what they believed then his friends that believe in God and he didnt have enough faith in either one to claim any. I respect that and I respect yours and everyone on here's belief we all should be able to believe in what we think is right and true. Can you show me how science explains all of life's questions better then the bible more specifically Christ?

Bolds mine.

First, thanks for the line breaks; they're appreciated  :D

Sam, the thing about science is that it doesn't require faith. The standardized empiricism we call the scientific method, if done right, ensures that our observations of the world move closer and closer to reality. Religious faith does not offer this.

Religion answers emotional needs that science does not attempt to address (though it is used to investigate their physiological basis). Where religion does science a disservice is when it insists that it is somehow equivalent, "just another way" of looking at and interpreting the world. It is not.

Science can be verified, repeated, reproduced. A hydroelectric generator is unaffected by the faith of the specialists constructing and servicing it. The electricity it produces can light operating rooms or execute convicted murderers; one and the same to the physics involved.

Religion is demonstrably subjective and changes (often radically, as Christianity's example shows) over time. Yes, it has inspired people to do good things. Also utterly appalling things. I put it to you that science has more consistently changed the world for the better far more often and profoundly than religion.
 
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #231 on: August 16, 2012, 03:07:07 AM »






Ok this is answering to these two post dealing with science the first and the second by wright. You both seem to me( and please explain exatly here how you disagree if you do)are still taking what I'm saying and representing it different then that of what I said exactly. Because I never said they were equal, or anything about denying science and medical advances to be good.

Side note: science describes and learns about the world around us through testing and experiments and of course the scientific method. The bible teaches to forever or constantly search for knowledge and it says there is more wisdom and knowledge to be explored in this world or I'd say creation, and signs of his will in creation then anything else. It teaches to always pursue knowledge and to never stop learning in any area because there are many great devices we have to use to learn by and we should use them.

Personally I'll say that I indeed have a passion for science and I love it, no matter what we say here there are in fact not only non-christian and atheistic scientist there are plenty that are Christians or theist. And while it seems almost common in our times to say the bible contains zero scientific fact. We can discuss verses you think are contradictory to science if you would like I'm alright with that, but we can also discuss verses that agree with modern science far before there was the modern proof of the science.

Finally I'd just ask, how using science can you understand everything, when everything infers ideas not dealing with science? I think we would agree a difference between theory and fact, science does have its facts but it can't tell you how the universe came to be in a factual way. There are theories of how it came to be but they are just theories. Do you have another view other then this all came to be from nothing? Nothing where there is no time or space or anything, a place like that displays zero potential to do anything or make anything at all. We can go further here or if you believe different we can take that elsewhere.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 03:10:03 AM by Samuelke »