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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #116 on: August 05, 2012, 10:30:38 PM »
I am never bothered by it because every single day of my life now God is as obvious to me as the people places and things I encounter everyday. But before I started taking God seriously and was filled with doubt there was not almost anything at all obvious about God. I only started to see and understand what he was saying to me clearly when I put all my belief and whole heart into it. God will only be seen if one genuinely wants to see him, why would he show himself and be obvious to someone who is dead set on him being only a figment of the imagination. 

The evidence in my own life has been more then enough proof for myself for the existence of God now all this information on prayer research only affirms my beliefs I suggest you give these next few links a serious chance since it covers scientific research. I truly believe though that all this only does so much and you and me all of us will truly see the proof when we see him work in our own lives.

I don't think you've answered my question about prayer verification.

I want to know how do you verify that god did, in fact, answer your prayers.


Maybe I need to give some examples.

Someone losses his keys.  He prays to god to help find his key.  He finds his keys.  Did god answer his prayer, or did he just happen to find what he was looking for?  Either way, how do you determine this?

Someone go to a job interview.  That person later prays that she'll get the job.  A few days later, she got the job.  Did god answer her prayers, or did the HR person simply thought that she was qualified for the job?  Either way, how do you determine this?

Someone has a sick aunt.  She's a sweet lady.  He prays that she recovers from her illness.  She does recover.  Did god answer his prayers, or did she had some chances of recovering anyway?  Either way, how do you determine this?


If those are not good examples of prayers, then provide what would be a good example.
Well taking a second look at that prayer research it seems 50/50 so that was a bad idea on me. It really is a impossible thing for anyone to really prove, it seems to me it has to do with our spirituallity, and I really think its in all of us some people call it something different but we all posses it, I can give a description I will if someone wants me too, but I'll wait on that so I don't get ambiguous with it like I've done a few times and I apologize for that. But I really am a logical person whether you believe me or not I am and even as a kid it was before I was ten I was young, but I became terrified of heaven and eternity and started to talk about as well. That was the first of many, howerever now that same thought is no longer a struggle. They way I verify my own experiences with God is when I think I have an answer from him if I have any question whether it is or is not, any question at all later afterward, any relating to it at all then I know it's not his answer. Only when I can have no question at all on it at any point in time. I can add a little more if you'd like but I'm short on time at the moment.

Online JeffPT

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #117 on: August 05, 2012, 11:23:50 PM »
http://www.users.ms11.net/~dejnarde/resurrect.htm

http://www.users.ms11.net/~dejnarde/mocker.htm

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

I gave them a quick glance Sam.  It would be fairly simple to go line by line refuting everything those people say and giving you arguments against their position, but that would take a lot more time than I think any of us would want to take to logically dismantle them. Especially since your entire belief system doesn't depend on whether or not those arguments are true; it depends on faith, which isn't logical to begin with.   

These links show the truth in Jesus, all Christianity could have been shown to be a lie if a body were found, the old testament prophecies said he would bodily rise again as well as the disciples so if that could be disproved, all of it would go with it. This is because of the fact that everything in the bible hinges on Jesus, he is the main message.

Those links are from Christians who have everything to gain by saying what they say. 

Alright, though.  You twisted my arm.  I'll give you 3 sentence-by-sentence responses and stop there.  Start with the first sentence in first link:

"The body of Jesus, according to Jewish burial custom, was covered in a linen cloth. About 45 kilos of aromatic ingredients, mixed to form a sticky substance, were placed on the cloth which covered the body."

As a nitpick, it was actually closer to 35 kilos (75 lbs).

First, Jesus was crucified by the Romans as a criminal.  It is entirely possible that Jesus was not afforded a proper Jewish burial because of that.  Here is a link and a quote from the link...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_kirby/tomb/roman.html

Quote
The information presented on the Roman practice of crucifixion shows that the very act of taking a body down from the cross for burial was, if practiced at all, the exception to the rule. The popular phrase "Food for Crows," the line about the crucified being an "ugly meal for birds of prey and grim scraps for dogs," the response of Tiberius to the request for burial, the comment from Horace, and finally the story from Petronius about the guard who allowed the body to be stolen off the cross all indicate that part of the very shame of crucifixion was the denial of burial rites as a last act of humiliation.

Second, who covered the body in the spices and sticky substances?  If you ask the Gospel of Mark, there was no spice wrap.  If you ask the Gospel of Matthew, there was no spice wrap.  If you ask the Gospel of Luke, it was the women who came with Jesus from Gallilee, but they had to rest on the Sabbath so they didn't get it done that day.  If you ask the Gospel of John, it was Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who used the 35 kilos of stuff on Jesus body. 
See what I mean? 

Lets move on to the second sentence.
 
"They placed the body in a tomb made of solid rock. with the help of levers they moved a massive block of stone (weighing about 2 ton) and closed the entrance of the tomb."
 
Again it is important to look at the gospel accounts to get a feel for the inherent contradictions to this.  Once you do that, you ask yourself, could a single person do it?  Where does the 2 ton figure come from?  Did they have a scale back then?  How many people rolled the stone?   

If you ask the Gospel of Mark, then Joseph of Arimathea rolled the stone back in place all by himself.  2 tons?  Good luck Joseph.  If you ask the Gospel of Matthew, here again we have Joseph cutting a tomb out of rock by himself and then rolling a 'big' stone in front of it, again, by himself.  If you ask the Gospel of Luke, there is no rock in front of the door.  And in the Gospel of John, Jesus tomb is in a garden, not a cave with a big rock in it. 

Where does it say in the bible that they used levers?  Where does it say how gigantic the stone was?  Where does the 2 ton estimate come from?  Did someone just pull that number out of their ass?  It doesn't say in the bible.

Third sentence:

"A Roman guard composed of strictly disciplined men was ordered to guard the tomb." 

Why would they do that to a criminal they just crucified?  It makes no sense to do that.  There is no reason to think that they would post a guard around Jesus tomb. 

Almost every sentence has another side to it Sam.  The people who write those sites you link are giving you one side of a VERY 2 sided argument.  In order to be fair, you MUST hear the other side of it.   

You all here have this very clever way of taking bible verses out of context and using them in the way you'd like.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you were the one guilty of that?  That maybe it's you who twists the meaning to suit what you want to see?  For example: take the book of Genesis.  When they talk about evening and morning being the first day, it is common now for Christians to realize that God didn't really create the universe in 6 days (because science contradicts it).  So when they read 'it was evening and morning of the first day', they say something akin to 'it wasn't REALLY evening and morning and the first day, because a day is like a 1000 years for God, and a thousand years like a day'.  This is twisting the meaning.  Who is doing the twisting?  The Christians. All we are doing is interpreting what the book says as if it came from any other book.  This type of thing is constant with you folks. 

When the bible says, 'ask anything in my name, and I will do it', I'm not twisting it around, I'm taking it for what it says.  As if it was a phrase with which I could prove or disprove what he says.  And when I ask something in his name, and it doesn't happen, why am I not allowed to question the truth of the statement?  I mean seriously, if I wrote a book and said that I will do anything you ask, as long as you call out to me when you do it, and then you call out to me and I don't do it, don't you just think I was lying?  Can you not see that this is exactly what's happening with the bible?  You can explain it away all you want with your theology, but the fact remains, 'ask anything in my name' just doesn't work.  Even with food and water as you elude to.

Now I know you've heard it a million times the out of context statement but it is part of the truth, it is also very well known in Christian theology that the bible is literal only few times and all the other times( most of the bible) is not literal and a thorough reading and re-reading is needed to dig out all the meanings that lay there.

You can pull whatever meaning you want out of the bible.  Want to think that God likes to get revenge?  That's in there.  Want to think that God forgives everyone who believes in Jesus?  That's in there.  Want to think eating shellfish is deserving of the death penalty?  It's in there.  Want to hate gays?  It's in there.  Want to own slaves?  It's in there.  Want to love everyone?  It's in there.  Want to sell your daughter?  It's in there.  Want your wife to shut up more?  It's in there. 

Ask and its given is in the context of asking for things within Gods will, our needs in life for food, shelter, and water are things this Verse refers to.

Interesting.  Do you know that on average 29,000 children die every day from starvation?  Do you think not a single one of them prays?  This is a ridiculous statement Sam.  God doesn't always give people what they need in terms of food, shelter and water.  For some strange reason, the people who pray for food, shelter and water, seem to have it or not have it due to their location and social situations.  Almost as if God has nothing to do with food, shelter and water.  I mean, I never pray for any of those and I have them in abundance.  Lots of people pray for them and have none.  What do you make of that?  I'm sure your mind has a ready answer, but no matter what you come up with, the notion that God is not real, and that he plays no part in answering prayers about food, shelter and water IS a valid explanation for why some people have those things and some don't. 

And what if I (or even a football stadium full of the most devout people in the world) were to sincerely pray for food and water for every child in the world.  Do you honestly think that 29,000 kids wouldn't die tomorrow?  You can't really think that, can you? 

Sorry about my terrible grammar I know I write a bunch a run ons and what have you. Sorry I will really try my best to improve my grammar on here, I write poetry and stories it is very very rare I write formally so really sorry about that.

Don't sweat it.  We see it constantly from theists.  I dare say we're used to it.

Thanks everyone though for these conversations really I love every second of it sorry it takes me so long sometimes to respond I've been crazy busy lately and it's gonna get worse cause classes are about to start back, but I'm really enjoying talking with you all I'm gonna work harder to respond more to you all.

Sam, I'm glad you are enjoying yourself, but if you really want to get something out of these conversations, really stop and consider that you might be wrong.  We aren't atheists for no reason.  We don't hate God.  We aren't mean and awful people.  Most of us haven't been physically harmed by worshipers.  I, personally, have had no seriously bad experiences with religion.  When you see the well thought out, logical responses from the people here, we aren't playing games or twisting what you say.  We're just judging things with a critical eye, from both sides of the argument. 

I know there is no Christian God like I know there is no Santa Claus.  It's just not reasonable to believe in it.  It's not the truth.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #118 on: August 05, 2012, 11:46:15 PM »
^I miss making posts like that. Phone is quite limiting, in such regard.

:(

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #119 on: August 05, 2012, 11:48:08 PM »


I think you meant objectively.

Yup, sure did.  Wow, haven't made that mistake in at least 10 years.  Thanks though.... and seriously thanks, I hate errors like that.
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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #120 on: August 06, 2012, 12:49:15 AM »
Ok so what you have just done with all the examples you have give, is show the bible isn't word for word perfect which the bible itself admits that. It goes a step further in saying that some of its contents are up for scrutiny and corrections, but there are some certain ideas that are set in stone and have been the crucial ideas of the religion since Jesus came. As I said before he is the truth, the way, and the life and only through him can we get to the father. That was preached by Jesus and still is the main point today and hasn't changed. You would have yourself a very stable point if I were a Muslim say because they believe their book is the perfect word of God. But I see that it makes total sense for it not to be perfect just because of how language is so ambiguous and the loss of meaning through time. personally, anytime I read the bible I use a translator to get the Greek and Hebrew word meanings it does help a good bit in my opinion. If you look across the boards the times Jesus spoke in the bible is the most unchanged out of anything else.
To the comment that I get what I want out of it can't be true because I don't always like what's said, for instance it always talks about how life won't be easier when you believe, still gonna struggle just the same, but it will be different. And I have thought that I was wrong about all this many many times but there came a point and I haven't questioned it since. I'm still opened minded but I am strong in my beliefs, I don't think any differently about anyone with differing beliefs then mine, I respect each person the same and that is the same respect I give myself I mean that from the depths of my heart in all encompassing honesty. The bible talks about how even if you don't believe you can very well still be a good person.

Online Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #121 on: August 06, 2012, 12:51:06 AM »
Well taking a second look at that prayer research it seems 50/50 so that was a bad idea on me. It really is a impossible thing for anyone to really prove, it seems to me it has to do with our spirituallity, and I really think its in all of us some people call it something different but we all posses it, I can give a description I will if someone wants me too, but I'll wait on that so I don't get ambiguous with it like I've done a few times and I apologize for that. But I really am a logical person whether you believe me or not I am and even as a kid it was before I was ten I was young, but I became terrified of heaven and eternity and started to talk about as well. That was the first of many, howerever now that same thought is no longer a struggle. They way I verify my own experiences with God is when I think I have an answer from him if I have any question whether it is or is not, any question at all later afterward, any relating to it at all then I know it's not his answer. Only when I can have no question at all on it at any point in time. I can add a little more if you'd like but I'm short on time at the moment.

From the sounds of things, the results of prayer is indistinguishable from the results of non-prayers.

You make prayers, stuff happens, and you assume that god had a hand in it.  You see god's hand everywhere.  That about sums it up, right?

However, what I see are stuff that had some chances of happening anyway.  If someone loses his keys (you didn't label any of my examples as bad prayers, so I'm assuming all of them are fair game), there is usually some chance of him finding them.  People usually have some chance of finding a job, people usually have some chance of recovering from illness, etc etc.  In such cases, I see it as very unlikely that god, or any sort of supernatural beings had involvment, since there is nothing to suggust such a thing.  It seems far, far more likely that prayer is little more than a form of magical thinking.  It might make you feel good, but that's about it.

This is why we ask the amputee question (and other prayers that god doesn't answer).  For humans, the odds of them regrowing a limb is virtually nonexistent.  For this prayer to be answered, it would require that god does something.  It would not be up to "something that could've happened anyway".  If we saw such prayers happening, it would get us talking.  Very fast.  I don't know if it would result in "instant conversion", but it would get us wondering what's going on, instead of wondering why you think magic is happening.
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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #122 on: August 06, 2012, 01:09:38 AM »
Well taking a second look at that prayer research it seems 50/50 so that was a bad idea on me. It really is a impossible thing for anyone to really prove, it seems to me it has to do with our spirituallity, and I really think its in all of us some people call it something different but we all posses it, I can give a description I will if someone wants me too, but I'll wait on that so I don't get ambiguous with it like I've done a few times and I apologize for that. But I really am a logical person whether you believe me or not I am and even as a kid it was before I was ten I was young, but I became terrified of heaven and eternity and started to talk about as well. That was the first of many, howerever now that same thought is no longer a struggle. They way I verify my own experiences with God is when I think I have an answer from him if I have any question whether it is or is not, any question at all later afterward, any relating to it at all then I know it's not his answer. Only when I can have no question at all on it at any point in time. I can add a little more if you'd like but I'm short on time at the moment.

From the sounds of things, the results of prayer is indistinguishable from the results of non-prayers.

You make prayers, stuff happens, and you assume that god had a hand in it.  You see god's hand everywhere.  That about sums it up, right?

However, what I see are stuff that had some chances of happening anyway.  If someone loses his keys (you didn't label any of my examples as bad prayers, so I'm assuming all of them are fair game), there is usually some chance of him finding them.  People usually have some chance of finding a job, people usually have some chance of recovering from illness, etc etc.  In such cases, I see it as very unlikely that god, or any sort of supernatural beings had involvment, since there is nothing to suggust such a thing.  It seems far, far more likely that prayer is little more than a form of magical thinking.  It might make you feel good, but that's about it.

This is why we ask the amputee question (and other prayers that god doesn't answer).  For humans, the odds of them regrowing a limb is virtually nonexistent.  For this prayer to be answered, it would require that god does something.  It would not be up to "something that could've happened anyway".  If we saw such prayers happening, it would get us talking.  Very fast.  I don't know if it would result in "instant conversion", but it would get us wondering what's going on, instead of wondering why you think magic is happening.


So do you have imprearical proof that no man in the history of the world has never had a limb regenerated if you will, by God. There is no way either of us could do such a thing since man predates written history.
So your saying this one question hold the vast majority of the reason for disbelief?

Online Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #123 on: August 06, 2012, 01:28:21 AM »
So do you have imprearical proof that no man in the history of the world has never had a limb regenerated if you will, by God. There is no way either of us could do such a thing since man predates written history.

I can't say with 100% certainly that no one ever had their limbs regenerated by a god being.  However, I can hazard the likelihood of such a thing.  You have not offered an example of such a thing, nor are you offering to make a prayer to that effect.  You yourself said that prayer is "impossible" to really prove.  What typically happens is that the theist will come up with reasons why we will not see an amputee's limb being restored.  I have yet to see someone say "Ok, we'll meet at the hospital tomorrow, and I shall say a prayer in front of an amputee, and we will plainly see his limbs being restored.  Bring your camera along."

Given all of that, and more; I can safely say that the likelihood of god ever healing an amputee is very very very low.


Quote
So your saying this one question hold the vast majority of the reason for disbelief?

Actually, it's more like the bible itself is the reason for disbelief.  JeffPT just gave an example of one aspect of it.  Another aspect is the lack of corroborating evidence for the things metioned in the bible.  The bible said there was a big flood.  There is no corroborating evidence for such a thing.  The bible said that there was once a great, grand, glorious, golden kingdom of Israel.  There is no corroborating evidence for such a thing.  So on and on it goes.  If you had to "boil it down", I would say the reason for disbelief is the lack of corroborating evidence.
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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #124 on: August 06, 2012, 02:19:44 AM »
So do you have imprearical proof that no man in the history of the world has never had a limb regenerated if you will, by God. There is no way either of us could do such a thing since man predates written history.

I can't say with 100% certainly that no one ever had their limbs regenerated by a god being.  However, I can hazard the likelihood of such a thing.  You have not offered an example of such a thing, nor are you offering to make a prayer to that effect.  You yourself said that prayer is "impossible" to really prove.  What typically happens is that the theist will come up with reasons why we will not see an amputee's limb being restored.  I have yet to see someone say "Ok, we'll meet at the hospital tomorrow, and I shall say a prayer in front of an amputee, and we will plainly see his limbs being restored.  Bring your camera along."

Given all of that, and more; I can safely say that the likelihood of god ever healing an amputee is very very very low.


Quote
So your saying this one question hold the vast majority of the reason for disbelief?

Actually, it's more like the bible itself is the reason for disbelief.  JeffPT just gave an example of one aspect of it.  Another aspect is the lack of corroborating evidence for the things metioned in the bible.  The bible said there was a big flood.  There is no corroborating evidence for such a thing.  The bible said that there was once a great, grand, glorious, golden kingdom of Israel.  There is no corroborating evidence for such a thing.  So on and on it goes.  If you had to "boil it down", I would say the reason for disbelief is the lack of corroborating evidence.

Do you really think that if God existed, he would be willing and wanting to attend to every single individual person he created and gave life, and come personally answer every doubt and question we have to convince us that he's there?

Ok so here again your are giving details about the bible not any obstruction to its main them and meaning, when it's not perfect word for word, I think it is more difficult to answer how bible writers knew things like mountain ranges being at the bottom of the ocean? How did they know that there were large streams of currents through the ocean and also in the air? Things that weren't discovered untill far later?

And also just to make sure this is correct, you believe that the universe is here because of time plus matter plus chance?

Offline natlegend

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #125 on: August 06, 2012, 04:11:57 AM »
Samuelke said:
Quote
Do you really think that if God existed, he would be willing and wanting to attend to every single individual person he created and gave life, and come personally answer every doubt and question we have to convince us that he's there?

But god sent you a 'shooting star'. Just what is it that makes you a special little snowflake? Also, god is supposed to be omnipotent, meaning he has All Power, i.e. he can do anything. Who are you to place limits on his abilities?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #126 on: August 06, 2012, 06:22:21 AM »
So do you have imprearical proof that no man in the history of the world has never had a limb regenerated if you will, by God.

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. Do you have any sound evidence or sound arguments proving your God regrows limbs, answers prayers or even exists in reality? Of course you don’t.

Think about this, Samuelke. No one, in all of human history, has ever produced a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove your God is real… not once… ever. What does that tell you? It tells atheists there is no sound reason to believe your God or any other god is real. Theists blithely disregard this total lack of evidence and continue clinging to their beliefs.

Why do they do that when it should be obvious to any rational person that such behaviour is unreasonable. I think the main reason people cling to religious beliefs is because they provide emotional comfort and they allow their desire for emotional comfort to override their reason. Basically, most people are insecure enough to want the comforting promises of religions to be true and gullible enough to believe them.

Belief that your God answers prayers is just another manifestation of this. It is nothing more than ritual hand wringing used to assuage fear and anxiety. The problem with those prayer studies you presented is they all produce results that are in the weeds. There is no way to say the results observed are not due to statistical noise or the placebo response.

There is another problem with prayer in general. If prayer did actually work then science would be impossible. No one could ever trust observations or experiments because anyone could have prayed to alter the outcome. If prayer actually worked then we would never see any consistency in the world. When you pray, you are asking your God to perform a miracle. You are asking it to perform some action contravening natural laws because the result you seek differs from the natural outcome. If prayers actually worked, miracles should abound in everyday life, but they don’t, do they? We don’t see miracles occurring regularly. All we see are mundane events such as someone finding their car keys after praying that could have occurred naturally anyway. Even your own testimony of having your fibromyalgia symptoms easing is unremarkable given its psychophysiological nature. People also find their symptoms easing if they meditate or take anti-depressants.

Do you really think that if God existed, he would be willing and wanting to attend to every single individual person he created and gave life, and come personally answer every doubt and question we have to convince us that he's there?

Theists like you apparently think so. You think it helps you whenever you pray to ease your symptoms. You think it sent you the brightest meteor you’ve ever seen in your life as a sign of its existence just because you started having doubts.

Of course, there is a simpler, more reasonable explanation and it is that you are just another religious believer who is insecure and gullible.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #127 on: August 06, 2012, 07:26:46 AM »



So do you have imprearical proof that no man in the history of the world has never had a limb regenerated if you will, by God. There is no way either of us could do such a thing since man predates written history.
So your saying this one question hold the vast majority of the reason for disbelief?

First, are you remotely aware of what an appeal to ignorance is, and why it is a bad line of reasoning?

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #128 on: August 06, 2012, 09:46:05 AM »
Do you really think that if God existed, he would be willing and wanting to attend to every single individual person he created and gave life, and come personally answer every doubt and question we have to convince us that he's there?

Seriously?  You're asking this?  You've already claimed to be in a relationship with god.  You've already claimed that god receives prayers and answers them.  You've already claimed that god does personally gives you answers to your prayers.  Now you're saying that we shouldn't expect answers from god?  Make up your mind!  Beside which, if the idea of god as "all-loving and all-powerful" is to be believed, then YES, I would expect god to be willing and wanting to attend to every single individual person.  To do otherwise would mean he is either:

1) Not all-loving

2) Not all-powerful

OR

3) Non-existence

Whichever the case, it would mean that so many christians have it wrong about their viewpoints on god.  It seems to me that before you try to straighten out the godless, christians should straighten out their ideas about god.  Really, how do you expect to win us over if you can't agree among yourself about god?


Quote
Ok so here again your are giving details about the bible not any obstruction to its main them and meaning, when it's not perfect word for word,


This is just sidesteping the whole "lack of corroborating evidence" thing.


Quote
I think it is more difficult to answer how bible writers knew things like mountain ranges being at the bottom of the ocean? How did they know that there were large streams of currents through the ocean and also in the air? Things that weren't discovered untill far later?


I would need to know which sets of verses you're refering to before commenting on this.


Quote
And also just to make sure this is correct, you believe that the universe is here because of time plus matter plus chance?

You're asking me a strawman's version of the origin of the universe.  Nobody, except those trying to invoke god, say "chance didit".
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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #129 on: August 06, 2012, 10:14:25 AM »
Don't you see how at this point you are just making excuses for God and why he doesn't behave the way the Bible says he will?

God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and benevolent yet you make excuses essentially saying that God doesn't have time to answer everyone's prayers.


One third of Americans (not just Christians mind you), think the Bible is literally true.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/onethird-americans-believe-bible-literally-true.aspx

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Timothy 3:14-17

But you seem comfortable with cherry picking the Bible and believing some of it while disregarding others.  I do at least commend you for going back to Greek when you can, but even that is incomplete and no original copies remain.
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #130 on: August 06, 2012, 12:10:52 PM »
Do you really think that if God existed, he would be willing and wanting to attend to every single individual person he created and gave life, and come personally answer every doubt and question we have to convince us that he's there?
Assuming that he wants us to know that he exists, then yes.

Is my assumption wrong?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #131 on: August 06, 2012, 12:46:43 PM »
Do you really think that if God existed, he would be willing and wanting to attend to every single individual person he created and gave life, and come personally answer every doubt and question we have to convince us that he's there?

You haven't read the bible much have you?
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2012, 12:49:41 PM »
Interesting.  Do you know that on average 29,000 children die every day from starvation?

I've seen the 29,000 number a couple of times now.  Do you have a citation?
(As long as that number is greater than 0, your argument still applies, but I'd like to get more details on this data point for my own edification.)
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2012, 01:08:12 PM »
Quote
Children are the most visible victims of undernutrition.  Children who are poorly nourished suffer up to 160 days of illness each year. Poor nutrition plays a role in at least half of the 10.9 million child deaths each year--five million deaths.  Undernutrition magnifies the effect of every disease, including measles and malaria. The estimated proportions of deaths in which undernutrition is an underlying cause are roughly similar for diarrhea (61%), malaria (57%), pneumonia (52%), and measles (45%) (Black 2003, Bryce 2005). Malnutrition can also be caused by diseases, such as the diseases that cause diarrhea, by reducing the body's ability to convert food into usable nutrients.


Worldhunger.org

That comes up to about 13,500 a day btw (5mill/365).  I have seen the 29k number as well, I want to say it was in the WWGHA but I am not certain.
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »
Quote
Children are the most visible victims of undernutrition.  Children who are poorly nourished suffer up to 160 days of illness each year. Poor nutrition plays a role in at least half of the 10.9 million child deaths each year--five million deaths.  Undernutrition magnifies the effect of every disease, including measles and malaria. The estimated proportions of deaths in which undernutrition is an underlying cause are roughly similar for diarrhea (61%), malaria (57%), pneumonia (52%), and measles (45%) (Black 2003, Bryce 2005). Malnutrition can also be caused by diseases, such as the diseases that cause diarrhea, by reducing the body's ability to convert food into usable nutrients.


Worldhunger.org

That comes up to about 13,500 a day btw (5mill/365).  I have seen the 29k number as well, I want to say it was in the WWGHA but I am not certain.

The one I had heard from the UN was a child every five seconds, which comes out to about 17,000 a day.  It's probably not an exact science.  For example, if a child has been starving, then gets the measles and dies while he still has it, do you count that as a measles death, a starvation death (because a better nourished child would more likely have survived the illness), both, or maybe even something else altogether if there are other factors at work, such as not having access to clean water, which is also depressingly common?
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #135 on: August 06, 2012, 01:22:17 PM »
So do you have imprearical proof that no man in the history of the world has never had a limb regenerated if you will, by God. There is no way either of us could do such a thing since man predates written history.

I don't see a problem with being unable to prove that it happened or did not happen in the remote past.

I have noticed, however, that it has yet to happen in the present age, where people are suffering due to the loss of limbs and where prayers outside the scope of current medical knowledge are going unfulfilled.

I must therefore conclude at this point that praying to a god for a miracle is a waste of time, unless that prayer provides some psychological benefit such as self-assurance and the ability to successfully navigate a painful, stressful situation.
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #136 on: August 06, 2012, 02:54:44 PM »


I don't see a problem with being unable to prove that it happened or did not happen in the remote past.



Even if that claim were made (It happened long ago) I dont think anyone would buy it.  Its amazing how much fewer and further between 'miracles' seem to happen in modern times, or at least since the scientific method.  Where an uneducated society sees a miracle, and educated one usually can see a magic trick.  I mean, people in the Middle ages (1500 years AD) believed that among the holy relics of the church was some of Mary's breast milk... yeah... that happened.  Also Christ's foreskin.

Actually, just did some looking, I think many of them still believe they have these relics.  Cause you know... People kept this kind of stuff.

However, I maintain my original comment.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #137 on: August 06, 2012, 09:52:40 PM »
Ok you all got the meaning of my question wrong probably because of my wording I'm sure I'm sorry for that. I guess I was trying to get at this idea that I see on this forum, and do tell me if I'm wrong that anyone feels like this, but it seems most of you don't want there to be a God, and no matter the argument or evidence your goal is set to prove it wrong. Why would God, who chose to give life, want to go beyond( the already present evidence of his existence, I'll go further with that in a moment) and try to make one believe who wants and try's to prove he isn't there?

I would like you all to give me your examples that the bible is so contradictory and so false, if I can just get the name of the verses if possible that would help out.
And further if you all can show me your evidence and substantial proof for Jesus not living and his message not true? How only the belief in Jesus and through him is the way to God, that main message has never changed since? Can you show the resurrection did not happen?

This is also a sincere question of mine honestly, because I understand how absurd I seem to some of you but I am, with every single ounce, in the entirety of my being, certain that what I believe is true. But I haven't and I won't tell any of you that you need to do the same as me or believe the same as me.
The question though..... How do you personally define morals in your own life?

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #138 on: August 06, 2012, 10:27:58 PM »
Ok so what you have just done with all the examples you have give, is show the bible isn't word for word perfect which the bible itself admits that.

If the bible is not perfect, then it's not written or inspired by God.  It's then written by fallible men who can make mistakes and lie. If we openly admit that some of it is a lie, then it opens the possibility that all of it is a lie.  I'm not saying all of it is a lie, but I AM saying that it's possible.  And if it's possible, then which is more likely... they lied about Jesus, or that an invisible man in the sky sent his son (who was himself) down to Earth to live among the people he created, only to have himself tortured and killed to appease God (who was himself) to make up for a mistake that he himself created? 

It goes a step further in saying that some of its contents are up for scrutiny and corrections, but there are some certain ideas that are set in stone and have been the crucial ideas of the religion since Jesus came.

Like what?  Do you have any of the original writings so you can back up your statement here?  I'd like to see them please.  Do you know that early Christians were far more diverse in their beliefs about Jesus than it ever has been since (and that's saying something)? 

As I said before he is the truth, the way, and the life and only through him can we get to the father. That was preached by Jesus and still is the main point today and hasn't changed.

That phrase is from the Gospel of John; the last of the gospels to be written, some 70+ years after he died.  The reason you don't find that phrase in Mark (the first gospel to be written, some 40 years after the supposed Jesus character died), is because Mark's version of Jesus is NOTHING like John's version.  In Mark, Jesus is not the super powerful God man you see in John.  If you don't believe me, then I will show you how to see it for yourself.  First, go read the gospel of Mark from front to back.  Get a feel for Mark's Jesus as he paints him. Don't think of it as part of a larger cannon of biblical text.  Then do the same for John.  You will see the remarkable evolution and transformation of Jesus from a regular guy who was chosen to do good things and given some special tricks (Mark), all the way to God himself (John). 

I guess my point is that you saying Jesus preached that he was the way, the truth and the light from the very beginning is much more likely incorrect than correct. 

You would have yourself a very stable point if I were a Muslim say because they believe their book is the perfect word of God.

We have a point whether you are a Christian, a Muslim or any other religion.  The bigger problem for you is that our points hurt your position very badly and you are running out of counters for it.  Eventually you will dissolve into preaching (which I think has started in this post) and you will become frustrated at losing in every post.  Don't worry though.  If history is any judge, your faith will override your logic in the end.  You will stop coming to this site eventually and you will put your head back into the sand where it's been for so long before. 

But I see that it makes total sense for it not to be perfect just because of how language is so ambiguous and the loss of meaning through time.

So the LACK of perfection makes sense to you?  If the book were perfect, that would make sense to you too, right?  Yeah... Anyway. 

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about here.  You're twisting it around again.  You see, I sit here as an atheist and say that the imperfections of the bible mean that it's possible that the bible is nothing more than a regular book written by men who make mistakes, and you now see those same imperfections and you shove that reality into your world view and spit out an answer that your brain had to do mental gymnastics to get to.  "Oh yeah!" you say.  "The language is lost over time!" you say, as if that makes everything all better for you.  Well, it doesn't.  The lack of perfection means it's not from God, and that means it's just from men.  Like it or not, that's a large problem for your belief. 

To the comment that I get what I want out of it can't be true because I don't always like what's said, for instance it always talks about how life won't be easier when you believe, still gonna struggle just the same, but it will be different.

Life is a struggle because we are fragile living animals, on a small planet, with undersized brains, looking for limited resources and competing with one another daily for those resources.  Life isn't easy.  This is an observation that anyone can make.  So the bible saying life won't be easy doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.  It's not overly prophesetic to say life won't be easy as a believer when life isn't easy, period. 

And I have thought that I was wrong about all this many many times but there came a point and I haven't questioned it since.

Closing your mind to alternate possibilities eliminates the possibility that you could assimilate new information and thus rethink your stance.  You may want to reopen the case. 

I'm still opened minded but I am strong in my beliefs

No, you just admitted you closed your mind by saying you haven't questioned it since.  And being strong in your beliefs has no bearing on whether or not they are correct. 

Every person who practices a religion thinks their beliefs are strong, and for some reason they are proud of it. 

I don't think any differently about anyone with differing beliefs then mine, I respect each person the same and that is the same respect I give myself I mean that from the depths of my heart in all encompassing honesty.

Well, that's all well and good but not very biblical. 

I don't quite feel the same way.  You see, I respect (100% fully respect) your right to form your beliefs.  Really I do.  But that doesn't mean I have to respect them.  If you believe that your religion entitles you to punch me in the face, I'm not going to respect that.  If your religion entitles you to ram planes filled with people into tall buildings, I'm not going to respect that.  And if your religion tells you that gays should be denied the right to marry, that slave ownership is fine, that selling our daughters into slavery is fine, that cutting off a piece of a baby boy's penis is fine, that denying medical care to pregnant women is fine, that teaching creationism over evolution in schools is fine, then I'm going to have a serious fucking problem with it. 

I can respect your right to have beliefs.  But it's a whole different thing to ask me to respect what you actually do believe.  And I don't respect the Christian belief.  It's not respectable.  It's awful.  And it's untrue.   

The bible talks about how even if you don't believe you can very well still be a good person.

Yeah, you can be a good person and all that, but if you don't believe in Jesus, you're still deserving of eternal punishment in hell. 

But just for effect, lets have a reading of Deuteronomy...

If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,"... you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.... If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell there, that certain base fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of the city, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods" which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently; and behold, if it be true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, destroying it utterly, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.   DEUTERONOMY 13:6, 8-15

I thought you'd like to see how the bible really views non-believers and followers of other faiths. 

I guess I was trying to get at this idea that I see on this forum, and do tell me if I'm wrong that anyone feels like this, but it seems most of you don't want there to be a God, and no matter the argument or evidence your goal is set to prove it wrong.

No, wrong, definitely incorrect.  This is not right at all.  What we WANT has no bearing at all on what IS.  Personally, all I want is the truth.  If God is real, I want to know.  If God is not real, I want to know that too.

If you really think that all of our arguments come from a lack of desire for God to be real, then that should be evidenced in all of our posts.  Go back and reread some of them.  Are there problems with the logic?  Do we make appeals to our emotional desires for there to be no God in our answers to you?  No, we don't.  We are giving you information Sam.  We're giving you the reasons for our atheism, not our personal desires.  Do with it what you will. 

Do you really think your arguments are good?  Seriously?  Look, the bottom line is that the atheist argument is FAR superior to the Christian one in just about every single situation.  Even if I HATED that fact with an intense passion, it wouldn't change it.  If I HATED the idea that the Earth has a moon, would that change the fact that it does? 

Why would God, who chose to give life, want to go beyond( the already present evidence of his existence, I'll go further with that in a moment) and try to make one believe who wants and try's to prove he isn't there?

Why do you make it sound like God is just a petty human with petty feelings of jealousy and spite?  You want us to think God sits on high and folds his arms like RuPaul saying, "If that man don't want to deal with me, then I ain' gonna deal wit him!"  What sort of God are you worshiping here?  Isn't he supposed to be better than that? 

I would like you all to give me your examples that the bible is so contradictory and so false, if I can just get the name of the verses if possible that would help out.

I gave you one.  Who put the spices on Jesus body after he died?  There are literally hundreds more.  Does anyone have the link to that poster thing with the red lines connecting the contradictions? 


Can you show the resurrection did not happen?

If I said my grandfather rose from the dead after 3 days, would it be on you to disprove it, or on me to prove it? 

The resurrection is a miraculous, supernatural event.  In any situation, is it more reasonable to assume that a supernatural event has taken place, or that an alternate yet natural explanation is more likely?  The latter is always more likely, because that is what reality tells us. 

This is also a sincere question of mine honestly, because I understand how absurd I seem to some of you but I am, with every single ounce, in the entirety of my being, certain that what I believe is true.

So is a Muslim, a Hindu, a Jew, a Taoist, a Native American, etc, etc.  What's your point?  Do you think they are less devout than you?  Do you think they're all wrong and you're right?  Why?  Isn't it possible that you all just suffer from the same sort of delusion in a different cultural form? 

The question though..... How do you personally define morals in your own life?

This is a can of worms best left unopened for now Sam.  You have enough to handle without getting into that battle too.  Save this one for later.  Trust me.
 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #139 on: August 06, 2012, 10:32:03 PM »
I guess I was trying to get at this idea that I see on this forum, and do tell me if I'm wrong that anyone feels like this, but it seems most of you don't want there to be a God, and no matter the argument or evidence your goal is set to prove it wrong.

Samuel, you're wrong.  It has very little to do with wanting or not wanting there to be gods, and everything to do with the fact that there's no empirical evidence for gods.  What I want, and what I suspect many other people here want, is to live lives based on reality rather than myth.

Quote
Why would God, who chose to give life, want to go beyond( the already present evidence of his existence, I'll go further with that in a moment) and try to make one believe who wants and try's to prove he isn't there?

Why wouldn't a god want to go beyond?  Didn't Paul of Tarsus supposedly undergo an involuntary conversion that involved him getting blinded and knocked off his horse?

Quote
Can you show the resurrection did not happen?

Based on My knowledge of human physiology, it's so very, very unlikely that I'm satisfied that it didn't happen.  Upon death of the body, cell breakdown begins and all the critical systems decay almost immediately.  Not even 2012 neurosurgery and pharmacological intervention can restore consciousness to a brain that's been without oxygen for an hour.  Restoration of bodily function after several days?  No.  At that point all you have is a hunk of insentient meat wrapped in winding-cloths and smeared with costly herbs to allay the stink.

If you want to say "Ah, but it's divine magic!" you have to prove that such a thing actually exists.

Quote
The question though..... How do you personally define morals in your own life?

Does it hurt or help another living being?  All the rest is commentary.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 10:41:29 PM by Astreja »
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #140 on: August 06, 2012, 10:36:55 PM »
Ok you all got the meaning of my question wrong probably because of my wording I'm sure I'm sorry for that. I guess I was trying to get at this idea that I see on this forum, and do tell me if I'm wrong that anyone feels like this, but it seems most of you don't want there to be a God, and no matter the argument or evidence your goal is set to prove it wrong.
I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of responses to you: I'm not disbelieving in the existence of god to be stubborn - I disbelieve in god because I am unconvinced that such an entity exists.
Quote
Why would God, who chose to give life, want to go beyond( the already present evidence of his existence, I'll go further with that in a moment) and try to make one believe who wants and try's to prove he isn't there?
Because, apparently:
a) God is all-loving, and therefore would not relegate me to eternal torture (or lack of his all-love or whatever you believe the consequence of missing out on salvation means) simply for being either too stubborn or too stupid to recognize his existence.  You know, sort of like how most people would find a parent to be 'bad' if that parent decided to kick out there 7-year old for not wanting to do math and not being good at social studies.
b) God is all-knowing, and therefore is capable knowing why I do not believe in his existence.
c) God is all-powerful, and therefore is capable of actually convincing me of his existence.

You never answered my earlier question regarding god wanting me to know of his existence, so I'm still going with 'yes, god wants people to know he exists' answer.

Therefore the answer to your question is still 'yes', based on the characteristics that god apparently has.  Is there anything incorrect, illogical, or unreasonable with the all-loving/all-knowing/all-powerful argument that myself and others have made to you?
Quote

I would like you all to give me your examples that the bible is so contradictory and so false, if I can just get the name of the verses if possible that would help out.
And further if you all can show me your evidence and substantial proof for Jesus not living and his message not true?
Tell you what - I'll start putting together substantial proof for Jesus not living sometime after you give substantial proof that Osiris did not or does not live.  Before attempting that, however, you may wish to look into what the phrase 'proving a negative' means.
Quote
How only the belief in Jesus and through him is the way to God, that main message has never changed since? Can you show the resurrection did not happen?
You may wish to look into the history of the protestant reformation.  You may wish to look at the tenants of many of the other monotheistic religions out there.  Talk to a Jehovah's Witness, a Southern Baptist, a Mormon, an Episcopalian, and a Roman Catholic, ask them what 'salvation' means.  Ask a Jew or a Muslim about the relationship Jesus has to god.  Ask a Hindu, a Jain, and a Wiccan what 'god' means.

If you do that and still find the message of the whole 'belief in Jesus and through him is the way to God' to be a consistent, never changed message, then we can continue the conversation.

I'll show you that Jesus' resurrection didn't happen after you show me that Rama was not the 7th incarnation of Vishnu.  Refer to 'proving a negative' again.
Quote
This is also a sincere question of mine honestly, because I understand how absurd I seem to some of you but I am, with every single ounce, in the entirety of my being, certain that what I believe is true. But I haven't and I won't tell any of you that you need to do the same as me or believe the same as me.
So let me ask you this: do you know what being wrong feels like?  If you only pick one of the questions in this post to respond to, I do ask that you answer this one.
Quote
The question though..... How do you personally define morals in your own life?
That is a fairly deep question and I'm uncertain as to how it pertains to the current discussion.  However, at the core of how I personally define morals in my own life, it is in the context and with respect to the feelings, needs, and well-being of other living things capable of having feelings, needs, and well-being.  What I don't do for defining morals is look to a really old book or accept an action as morally righteous because some entity that may or may not have interest in letting me know that he even EXISTS trying to tell me what to do.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #141 on: August 06, 2012, 10:42:47 PM »
Its a big mothertrucker.  I originally imbedded it, but out of concern for people on iphones I thought better of it.

Here is a list of Biblical contradictions.  Many of them taken individually are nit-picky, but put all together, not so much.
http://sciencebasedlife.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/biblecontradictions-reasonproject.png

« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 10:44:50 PM by Garja »
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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2012, 10:49:31 PM »
^^Yeah, that's the one.  :)
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2012, 10:50:33 PM »
Sam

You seem more reasonable than to think we "want" there to be no God.  The evidence for God is so scant when I look at it objectively, I am surprised there are still Christians.  I know when I started to question my faith I started with the goal of re-affirming my faith... I specifically went looking for proof of God because I wanted to find it.

What I found generally boiled down to God of the Gaps argument, or "faith" - I believe it "just because".
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2012, 02:34:17 AM »
Alright when I say it's not perfect I do include word for word perfect, by which I mean there are solid ideas that all Christian theology can agree on. Mainly Jesus and if they don't have that it's no Christian theology. In the difference in the way the writers described Jesus just points to human individuality and where they stood with their own beliefs. I can't remember all the exact verses of this at the moment but I can pull them up if wanted, but it was Jesus who predicted to them they would not understand his truth fully at first but the time would come. You can see this in many places for example when Jesus first tells them about the death he is going to face and they are upset and say no that is not your fate. I believe it was John who at one point said maybe Jesus wasn't the one they were looking for and then job says to God I can only understand wich is verifiably true and tangible in my own reality. God answered him with about 60 questions. Se the bible also so though that God has great dignity in the free will we posses. I don't understand the putting of blame on God, for how the occupants of this earth us human beings are the real the inflictors of almost one hundred percent of all carnage and evil unto ourselves. Yeah we have starvation all over the world and we also have millionaires and billionaires who won't spare a dime for a family member. Ancient man had it in a much different way but we can't be that fragile considering our domination of the entire world now. I think if we take a look at the number one source in all history that caused the most bloodshed is obviously war, can you really blame God for human egotism and greed? God does intervene as much as he can without losing the dignity of our free will in the process. It's often said that God speaks the loudest during suffering it can just be a hard time to listen to it. The gospel teaches to be humble in all aspects of your life and Jesus was the perfect example of that, and at first it seems like a contradiction a man claiming to be the living God yet he spent his entire life dedicated to saving people and showing the lost love and in the end he chose not to save himself. However, there is no contradiction to a God loving his creation so, that he gave his son unto us. The redemption in Jesus has always been the reference point and to see that has never changed says a lot to me.