Author Topic: World views with no God  (Read 19258 times)

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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2012, 03:13:33 AM »
I'll start with saying yes I do believe he jumps in at certain times to do things but it is only on his limited basis because he can't just always jump in It would end up throwing to many other things out of balance.

What does this even mean?


Quote
In the many things it says on prayer one is how the more  doubt you have the harder it is for the prayer to be answered so in turn the more you trust in him the more likely it is.

So how do you verify this?


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Many many times in my life years have gone by before I realized that God answered a certain prayer because there have been times when I've been looking for a certain answer and blind to what he was actually trying to get through. I can blind myself to it though in many different ways. And really I promise the signs are always there it's just a matter a few things, the absolute best way to understand and interpret these signs is to read the bible, not just prayer and my relationship with him but the combination of that and reading the word more then anything helps me see these signs.

How do you verify that this is answered prayers, rather than you using your imagination to tie together unrelated things?

First question: it's like a hill and one person goes up while another is coming down, the person gowing up cant ask for it to be down withouthout the other person then having to go up. It's to me slightly like and just slightly hear me out, in movies and what not if somebody goes back in time and changes something when they return to the future it has changed dozens of things. Biblically speaking man made that choice in the beginning to have full free will or knowledge of good and evil, so it would be taking away from our free will and the cause and effect nature of our world if he answered every prayer in the way each person wants him to answer.

2nd: “But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does” (James 1:6-8).

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declared the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

1 Corinthians 13:12 tells us that now we see things dimly, as in a mirror, but someday we will see clearly and understand how God answered our prayers.

3rd: for me ever since the first time I really and truly put my trust in God it's been a daily experience that I see grow more and more and I see the more I trust in him and ask for his forgiveness the more he blesses me in both the good times and I see his grace grow even more through the bad. For me this has been very convincing in the grace and peace he gives me when times are rough and how he helps me see and understand so much more and all more clearly. I've seen struggle grow harsher when I pray with less trust and less passion for God.



Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2012, 03:38:48 AM »
According to the bible for a prayer to be answered one praying must sincerely believe in him and also in Jesus an put all other idols or gods or any thing we put before him material or not, aside and put him first. The you must ask for forgiveness and you see the western world was built on the idea of forgiveness and the east was built on unforgivness, finally you must be praying from the right place meaning not to be asking for more money or anything like that. If that happens god will always answer whether it is the answer we want or not, the bible also says we must wait on answers ask well as they can be difficult to find. It's vital to me to see that in my belief God has created us here but our eternal home is heaven and for me trying to see that eternal perspective, which can be difficult, helps put a lot of the suffering and many questions of life into perspective and understanding for me. It's not harder for god to answer prayers when there is doubt that is just simply how he has made it and how he wants it. I can go more into to detail here but I'll stop for now it's almost five.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2012, 09:32:10 AM »
First question: it's like a hill and one person goes up while another is coming down, the person gowing up cant ask for it to be down withouthout the other person then having to go up. It's to me slightly like and just slightly hear me out, in movies and what not if somebody goes back in time and changes something when they return to the future it has changed dozens of things. Biblically speaking man made that choice in the beginning to have full free will or knowledge of good and evil, so it would be taking away from our free will and the cause and effect nature of our world if he answered every prayer in the way each person wants him to answer.

This answer is... muddled.  I'm not sure how to respond to a muddled comment.  But it does comes off more as "excuse making" than anything else.  You keep having to explain why god does nothing that is obvious.  Does that ever bother you?

Also, if god doesn't answer prayers (because of the free will thing), then why even pray?


Quote
2nd: “But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does” (James 1:6-8).

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declared the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

1 Corinthians 13:12 tells us that now we see things dimly, as in a mirror, but someday we will see clearly and understand how God answered our prayers.

Bibles quotes does nothing to answe the question.



Quote
3rd: for me ever since the first time I really and truly put my trust in God it's been a daily experience that I see grow more and more and I see the more I trust in him and ask for his forgiveness the more he blesses me in both the good times and I see his grace grow even more through the bad. For me this has been very convincing in the grace and peace he gives me when times are rough and how he helps me see and understand so much more and all more clearly. I've seen struggle grow harsher when I pray with less trust and less passion for God.

This does nothing to answer my question.  Nothing at all.  I asked for how you verify that prayers were answered.  This... doesn't even relate to the question.


Looking back, I have to give your first answer a bit more credit.  It was something of a muddle, but at least you made an effort with the respond, which is far more than can be said with your following replies.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #90 on: August 04, 2012, 10:41:42 AM »
The you must ask for forgiveness and you see the western world was built on the idea of forgiveness and the east was built on unforgivness, finally you must be praying from the right place meaning not to be asking for more money or anything like that.
As a person of Asian decent, should I feel *insulted* by that???

But there can *still* be an *answer* given to a prayer coming from the 'wrong' place, right?  Wouldn't it just be more sensible for god to actually *respond* to my prayer for more money with something like 'No, dude, that's pretty selfish.  You should really be living your life in accordance to kindness to others.  Why don't you try asking for something else?'

Wouldn't scenarios like that be more beneficial towards god's goal of eliminating sin and getting mankind to understand, accept, and revel in god's unconditional love with no impact on the free wills of the beings that god wants to adore and be adored by?
Quote
If that happens god will always answer whether it is the answer we want or not, the bible also says we must wait on answers ask well as they can be difficult to find. It's vital to me to see that in my belief God has created us here but our eternal home is heaven and for me trying to see that eternal perspective, which can be difficult, helps put a lot of the suffering and many questions of life into perspective and understanding for me. It's not harder for god to answer prayers when there is doubt that is just simply how he has made it and how he wants it. I can go more into to detail here but I'll stop for now it's almost five.
For the sake of asking it, let's say it does a lot to help your suffering and many questions of life.  What are the ramifications of your belief structure on the suffering of others?  And that help with those questions of life - how do you know the answers your beliefs provide are true?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 11:01:30 AM by jdawg70 »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #91 on: August 04, 2012, 01:13:54 PM »
According to the bible for a prayer to be answered one praying must sincerely believe in him and also in Jesus an put all other idols or gods or any thing we put before him material or not, aside and put him first. The you must ask for forgiveness and you see the western world was built on the idea of forgiveness and the east was built on unforgivness, finally you must be praying from the right place meaning not to be asking for more money or anything like that. If that happens god will always answer whether it is the answer we want or not, the bible also says we must wait on answers ask well as they can be difficult to find. It's vital to me to see that in my belief God has created us here but our eternal home is heaven and for me trying to see that eternal perspective, which can be difficult, helps put a lot of the suffering and many questions of life into perspective and understanding for me. It's not harder for god to answer prayers when there is doubt that is just simply how he has made it and how he wants it. I can go more into to detail here but I'll stop for now it's almost five.

So let's see, for a prayer to be answered, you need to be:

1)Sincere

2) Asking for forgiveness (from what?  You listed idols, but there's very little of that these days)

3) Not asking for selfish things


Alright, fine.  So why are there no cases of an amputee being healed by god?  Don't tell me that nobody ever sincerely prayed for the well-being of an amputee.

For that matter, have you ever prayed that god will show himself before us so that we may stop doubting and start believing?  I presume that you sincerely do not want us to go to hell or "walk away from the lord".  Yet, I have never heard even an "hello" from god.  Why is that?
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Offline Frank

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #92 on: August 04, 2012, 01:26:38 PM »
According to the bible for a prayer to be answered one praying must sincerely believe in him and also in Jesus an put all other idols or gods or any thing we put before him material or not, aside and put him first. The you must ask for forgiveness and you see the western world was built on the idea of forgiveness and the east was built on unforgivness,

Would this be the same "unforgiving" east where Christianity, not to mention, Buddhism, were born? And would it be the same "forgiving" west where the two bloodiest wars in human history were fought? The same west that used nuclear weapons on a civilian population? Wasn't much forgiveness that day.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #93 on: August 04, 2012, 04:26:27 PM »
According to the bible for a prayer to be answered one praying must sincerely believe in him and also in Jesus an put all other idols or gods or any thing we put before him material or not, aside and put him first. The you must ask for forgiveness and you see the western world was built on the idea of forgiveness and the east was built on unforgivness, finally you must be praying from the right place meaning not to be asking for more money or anything like that. If that happens god will always answer whether it is the answer we want or not [bold mine], the bible also says we must wait on answers ask well as they can be difficult to find. It's vital to me to see that in my belief God has created us here but our eternal home is heaven and for me trying to see that eternal perspective, which can be difficult, helps put a lot of the suffering and many questions of life into perspective and understanding for me. It's not harder for god to answer prayers when there is doubt that is just simply how he has made it and how he wants it. I can go more into to detail here but I'll stop for now it's almost five.

So, how, exactly, can one tell whether a prayer was answered if the answer is "no". Could it be, rather, that in this case god decided there was not enough sincerity, faith, etc in the petition?

To say nothing of the possibility that the prayer was not answered since god is, in fact, imaginary...

Offline fasi345

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2012, 04:27:42 PM »
Yes I do believe in God and when we die we will be awarded/punished for our deeds in this world and get endless life in heaven/hell

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2012, 04:48:12 PM »
Yes I do believe in God and when we die we will be awarded/punished for our deeds in this world and get endless life in heaven/hell

Welcome to the forum, fasi.

One question I have asked several theists here regards the notion of eternal life. Specifically, how deeply have you considered the ramifications of living for eternity? What exactly do you think you will be doing forever? For the sake of argument you may answer under the assumption that your final destination is heaven, although I would welcome your thoughts on eternal hell, as well.

And please, no throwaway stock xtian answers like "I'll be forever happy in the presence of god", but a well considered response in your own words. For example, how do you imagine day 2 in heaven will be different from day 2 million or day 2 billion, et al. ?

I hope you'll take the opportunity to be the first theist to actually respond to this, and I honestly look forward to your answer.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2012, 05:33:13 PM »
Yes I do believe in God and when we die we will be awarded/punished for our deeds in this world and get endless life in heaven/hell

Welcome to the forum, fasi.

One question I have asked several theists here regards the notion of eternal life. Specifically, how deeply have you considered the ramifications of living for eternity? What exactly do you think you will be doing forever? For the sake of argument you may answer under the assumption that your final destination is heaven, although I would welcome your thoughts on eternal hell, as well.

And please, no throwaway stock xtian answers like "I'll be forever happy in the presence of god", but a well considered response in your own words. For example, how do you imagine day 2 in heaven will be different from day 2 million or day 2 billion, et al. ?

I hope you'll take the opportunity to be the first theist to actually respond to this, and I honestly look forward to your answer.

That is a really good question.  And one that I admit I had never really thought about before.

What does one do in the afterlife?  Forever and ever and ever?

I've posted about my sweet aunt, who believes her mom and my grandma are up in heaven cooking for my dad.  Even if you put aside the absurdity of dead people eating, it is not one of my utopian visions. 

I've seen the artistic depictions of deceased loved ones sitting on clouds and playing harps.  And that would be great for a few hours.  Days?  But years?  Millions, billions, trillions of years?

There was a video a while back by some guy who claimed he died and went to heaven, and romped around various different celestial districts, including a "body parts" room, which had all sorts of healthy body parts (livers, kidneys, ears, whatnot) that are sent down to earth to the holy who pray for them. 

So what do these blessed souls do for eternity? 

Reuniting with lost loved ones will be joyous, and will certainly take a while.  Meeting ancestors, quite a while.  Peeking in on loved ones on planet earth would be satisfying.  Music is nice.  Sitting around feeling bliss is nice.  Sitting next to a white haired bearded deity on a throne would be exciting.  Being embraced by a loving Jesus would rock. 

And then what?  Do you get to collect all human knowledge?  Are there books?  Movies?  Or do you just sit there and get celestial knowledge infusions? 

And then what?  After you know all that there is to know?

Do you spend a lot of time thinking about your loved ones who ended up in hell?   Can you get passes to visit them?  Or are they wiped from your memory - as if they never existed?

And then what?

I imagine you spend a lot of time meditating and reveling in the goodness of God and whatnot. 

Do you get to take naps?

But forever?  Millions?  Billions?  Trillions of years?

Wouldn't you, eventually, long for an end?

Offline Quesi

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #97 on: August 04, 2012, 05:34:49 PM »
sorry- double post
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 05:36:59 PM by Quesi »

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #98 on: August 04, 2012, 05:42:44 PM »
When I believed in such things I just always assumed that God would somehow make it so the whole experience isn't as incredibly boring as it would seem.  I don't know.... a Holy Lobotomy or something.
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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #99 on: August 04, 2012, 08:26:56 PM »
First question: it's like a hill and one person goes up while another is coming down, the person gowing up cant ask for it to be down withouthout the other person then having to go up. It's to me slightly like and just slightly hear me out, in movies and what not if somebody goes back in time and changes something when they return to the future it has changed dozens of things. Biblically speaking man made that choice in the beginning to have full free will or knowledge of good and evil, so it would be taking away from our free will and the cause and effect nature of our world if he answered every prayer in the way each person wants him to answer.

This answer is... muddled.  I'm not sure how to respond to a muddled comment.  But it does comes off more as "excuse making" than anything else.  You keep having to explain why god does nothing that is obvious.  Does that ever bother you?

Also, if god doesn't answer prayers (because of the free will thing), then why even pray?


Quote
2nd: “But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does” (James 1:6-8).

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declared the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

1 Corinthians 13:12 tells us that now we see things dimly, as in a mirror, but someday we will see clearly and understand how God answered our prayers.

Bibles quotes does nothing to answe the question.



Quote
3rd: for me ever since the first time I really and truly put my trust in God it's been a daily experience that I see grow more and more and I see the more I trust in him and ask for his forgiveness the more he blesses me in both the good times and I see his grace grow even more through the bad. For me this has been very convincing in the grace and peace he gives me when times are rough and how he helps me see and understand so much more and all more clearly. I've seen struggle grow harsher when I pray with less trust and less passion for God.

This does nothing to answer my question.  Nothing at all.  I asked for how you verify that prayers were answered.  This... doesn't even relate to the question.


Looking back, I have to give your first answer a bit more credit.  It was something of a muddle, but at least you made an effort with the respond, which is far more than can be said with your following replies.

I am never bothered by it because every single day of my life now God is as obvious to me as the people places and things I encounter everyday. But before I started taking God seriously and was filled with doubt there was not almost anything at all obvious about God. I only started to see and understand what he was saying to me clearly when I put all my belief and whole heart into it. God will only be seen if one genuinely wants to see him, why would he show himself and be obvious to someone who is dead set on him being only a figment of the imagination. 

The evidence in my own life has been more then enough proof for myself for the existence of God now all this information on prayer research only affirms my beliefs I suggest you give these next few links a serious chance since it covers scientific research. I truly believe though that all this only does so much and you and me all of us will truly see the proof when we see him work in our own lives.

http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/features-the-religion-world/2012/04/26/is-there-scientific-proof-that-prayer-can-heal/

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/science_investagates_prayer.htm


http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/PDF/fenwick_%208_4_04.pdf
 
http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/headline_health/prayer_healing_power/2012/04/06/443812.html

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-12-15/health/os-doctors-believe-in-miracles-20101215_1_miracles-doctor-physicians


Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2012, 08:27:47 PM »
Give me a little time here and I'll be making another post

Offline Frank

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2012, 08:44:21 PM »
 

The evidence in my own life has been more then enough proof for myself for the existence of God now all this information on prayer research only affirms my beliefs I suggest you give these next few links a serious chance since it covers scientific research. I truly believe though that all this only does so much and you and me all of us will truly see the proof when we see him work in our own lives.


You provide links that prayer works. What kind of faith is that?
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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2012, 09:19:36 PM »
The evidence in my own life has been more then enough proof for myself for the existence of God

Hi, there. I just wanted to comment that I used to say the exact same thing that you just said. I used to have a pastor who said that the best way to lead someone to Christ was to tell them your own personal story as evidence, and that they cannot argue with that. However, I realize how flawed that was because we all have our own personal testimonies, and some of us feel that they point strongly to the non-existence of any gods. Basically, what seems like evidence to you won't work for everyone because your perspective is subjective, and is not a great argument for claiming that God's existence is objective reality.
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Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2012, 10:14:06 PM »
@Samuelike -
So I perused those links... Note that the ones that mentioned a "miraculous recover" were anecdotal evidence at best, and the ones that were actually scientific in nature showed very little if any correlation between individuals prayed for and those that were not.  As the actual WWGHA document shows (not sure if youve read it or just joined the site), God never does anything that cannot be explained by coincidence... this is a problem...  God doesn't heal amputees, he doesn't heal the mentally handicapped, he doesn't heal those with birth defects, he does not heal people with genetic disorders.

(Further, if God was going to create a world FOR humans, He certainly created a myriad of ways to kill us... one would think 1 or 2 kinds of bacteria/viruses would have been sufficient, with 1 or 2 kinda of genetic or birth defects... no there are millions of variants, many of them (the types of bacteria) do not do a damn thing.... also mosquitoes, wtf?)

As someone who was very recently a Christian, I understand what your view of God likely is (I know, I could be wrong, but bear with me).  I know that when I believed in God, I certainly didn't limit Him to a statistical anomaly.  One would assume that if we are talking about an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and benevolent being any study done in due diligence would always have a positive correlation between prayer and positive recovery.  If God is God, then he is FREAKING GOD.  If He wants to be an object of worship, which the Bible certainly seems to indicate, why would He need to hide behind "small healing". 

I mean, I struggle with this, part of me still thinks "oh shit, I hope im right about this"... I would be lying if I said that I don't think that there is any way that there is a God.  However, look at the evidence.... its simply not there man.  I wasted 32 years of my life believing that there was some being watching over me and protecting me, and answering my prayers.... but if you are really honest with yourself, has God EVERY answered a prayer that could not possibly be explained by coincidence?  Im willing to bet if  you are completely honest with yourself and with the members of this site the answer is "no".

Again Samuel, I'm not here to belittle your beliefs, you are entitled to believe whatever you want.  But if you are a rational human being, you are forced to look at the stark LACK of evidence for any type of deity, and somehow rationalize that lack with what you want to believe... but the evidence certainly does not support such a belief.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2012, 10:34:16 PM »
I only started to see and understand what he was saying to me clearly when I put all my belief and whole heart into it. God will only be seen if one genuinely wants to see him.

So essentially, Sam, you are reversing the age-old rational, logical assertion of "Seeing is Believing" and saying it is only effective when it becomes "Believing is Seeing." Does it seem in any way disingenuous to you that the only means by which to access the "evidence" of god which would sway one to believe in him is restricted to those who already believe in him? Of course you started "seeing" him once you put all your belief into it, because at that point you already believed! Its amazing how easy it is to "see" god in everything around you when you already believe he exists and that he created it all.

Its called Confirmation Bias, and it is the most oft-employed tactic in the theist's bag-o-tricks.

edit: context
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 10:39:43 PM by DumpsterFire »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2012, 11:44:54 PM »
I am never bothered by it because every single day of my life now God is as obvious to me as the people places and things I encounter everyday. But before I started taking God seriously and was filled with doubt there was not almost anything at all obvious about God. I only started to see and understand what he was saying to me clearly when I put all my belief and whole heart into it. God will only be seen if one genuinely wants to see him, why would he show himself and be obvious to someone who is dead set on him being only a figment of the imagination. 

The evidence in my own life has been more then enough proof for myself for the existence of God now all this information on prayer research only affirms my beliefs I suggest you give these next few links a serious chance since it covers scientific research. I truly believe though that all this only does so much and you and me all of us will truly see the proof when we see him work in our own lives.

I don't think you've answered my question about prayer verification.

I want to know how do you verify that god did, in fact, answer your prayers.


Maybe I need to give some examples.

Someone losses his keys.  He prays to god to help find his key.  He finds his keys.  Did god answer his prayer, or did he just happen to find what he was looking for?  Either way, how do you determine this?

Someone go to a job interview.  That person later prays that she'll get the job.  A few days later, she got the job.  Did god answer her prayers, or did the HR person simply thought that she was qualified for the job?  Either way, how do you determine this?

Someone has a sick aunt.  She's a sweet lady.  He prays that she recovers from her illness.  She does recover.  Did god answer his prayers, or did she had some chances of recovering anyway?  Either way, how do you determine this?


If those are not good examples of prayers, then provide what would be a good example.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #106 on: August 04, 2012, 11:54:24 PM »
That is a really good question.  And one that I admit I had never really thought about before.

What does one do in the afterlife?  Forever and ever and ever?

It was not something I truly pondered until recent years myself, and I know you and I are not alone in that regard. Most people think of heaven as a perfect place where they will get to see lost loved ones again, maybe hang out with god/Jesus/Jimi Hendrix (some say they're all the same person ;D), and just be happy and free from pain and fear and evil forever. But eternity is not a concept that the human mind can process effectively. Everything we experience, every instinct we possess, every perspective to which we can relate is based on something finite. It is very difficult to wrap our heads around forever.

And then what?  Do you get to collect all human knowledge?  Are there books?  Movies?  Or do you just sit there and get celestial knowledge infusions? 

And then what?  After you know all that there is to know?

And then what, indeed. Those three words sum it up so well.
One of the biggest questions I have is, once you know all there is to know (which is inevitable on an endless timeline), wouldn't that make you a god yourself?

Wouldn't you, eventually, long for an end?

And there you have it. It is very difficult if not impossible to conceive of an eternal afterlife that will not eventually suck like a Hoover. At least, not one where any vestige of humanity is maintained.

Should I (or you Quesi, if you are so inclined) create a new thread on this subject?


edit: clarity
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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2012, 12:41:51 AM »
Quick question to all that this relates to in what you have said, how can you say that you have never heard, seen, or understood God or whatever he tries to get through to us if you have never actually taken that first step, in saying ok God I'm gonna trust you are actually here, then do some looking into the bible (or whatever religion you want to know about) and learn exactly what it says about prayer, and then actually give its teachings a fair shot( and for the bible that's Jesus for he said he was the truth, he didn't only say it he lived it, and I can give secular qoutes talking on how only Jesus in all history out of all and any of the teachers and great teachers, only he actually lived such a life that exemplified love and the things he was actually teaching. How if not doing this can you say you know there is no God?

Offline JeffPT

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2012, 09:41:09 AM »
Quick question to all that this relates to in what you have said, how can you say that you have never heard, seen, or understood God or whatever he tries to get through to us if you have never actually taken that first step, in saying ok God I'm gonna trust you are actually here

I have to break this up at this comma, because you ran on and on with this sentence. 

First, this isn't the way things normally work Sam.  You've been led to believe by lots of people that god is real.  That may or may not be the case.  In order for that to be the case, you can't START by saying "Ok, God, you're real."  You have to start with the assumption that either of them could be true. 

Why don't you start with the rejection of God as being real and live your life normally.  Or why don't you start with the belief that Allah is real.  Or Thor, or Zeus. 

Do you really think that it's a good move to start with the premise that God is real and make everything else fit into that?  Or do you think it is better to allow the evidence at hand to lead you to your conclusions?  If I said to you that you had to start with the premise that leprechauns were real and try to understand them that way, what would you say to me?  At what point in time can you ever stop saying leprechauns are real if the entire thing depends on believing it's real to start with? 

You've bought into the notion that God is real, and now you can't get out of it.  You're locked in.  No matter how much reality slaps you in the face and tells you that there is no such thing as the Christian God (29,000 kids die every day of starvation, cancer kills millions every year, the holocaust, etc), you are literally forced find ways to explain all of that away because you start with the belief that God is real.  Try not doing that.  Start with the notion of 'could god be real' and let the evidence lead you.  That's all we do different from you. 

, then do some looking into the bible (or whatever religion you want to know about) and learn exactly what it says about prayer

Be careful here.  You're on a website with people who probably know a lot more about your bible than you do.  Most of us have read it.  Most of us have heard all the arguments.  We know exactly what the bible says about prayer.  The fact that reality does not jive with what the bible says about prayer is not lost on us.  It is lost on you.  You are the one forced to find explanations to get around the fact that in many places the bible explicitly says that if you pray for something in Jesus name, you'll get it. 

, and then actually give its teachings a fair shot

What do you mean, give it a fair shot?  Have you ever given any other religion a fair shot?  Why is yours special?  Because you say it is? 

And who's version of the biblical teachings should we trust?  Yours?  Which one of the 38,000 sects of Christianity should we give a fair shot to? 

Do you really think you gave Christianity a 'fair shot' when you started with the premise that it was all true?  That's not fair, it's incredibly biased.  In order to give religion a fair shot, you have to start with the question of whether or not there is any form of deity, and then let the evidence take you where it goes.  The Christian God, however, is not where things end up if you do that.

( and for the bible that's Jesus for he said he was the truth

Do know anything about biblical history?  Like who wrote the gospels, how many copies we have of the originals, etc?  Yes, your bible says Jesus was the truth.  Why do you automatically think he was right?  It's just words in a really old book.  There are words in other really old books that say different things too. 

You are starting with the notion that Jesus was correct.  Why?  Because that's what you've been told to do?   I could say that I am the truth too, you know.  That doesn't make it true. 

, he didn't only say it he lived it, and I can give secular qoutes talking on how only Jesus in all history out of all and any of the teachers and great teachers, only he actually lived such a life that exemplified love and the things he was actually teaching.

Sam Harris, from Letter to a Christian Nation.
"It is true, of course, that Jesus said some profound things about love and charity and forgiveness. The Golden Rule really is a wonderful moral precept. But numerous teachers offered the same instruction centuries before Jesus (Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius, Epictetus...), and countless scriptures discuss the importance of self-transcending love more articulately than the Bible does, while being unblemished by the obscene celebrations of violence that we find throughout the Old and New Testaments."

You've been brainwashed to think Jesus was the greatest person ever.  A thorough reading of the bible without the Christian blinders on will change your mind on that.  If you look at the actual character in the book, he's not as great as you think he was. 


How if not doing this can you say you know there is no God?

Because the bible is not historical fact.  Because there is no evidence that God or any gods are real.  Because you can't hear, taste, touch, smell, feel or otherwise detect God in any way.  Because we have no idea who wrote the bible stories about Jesus.  Because we have no originals of the bible stories, and all the copies we have, have thousands of differences to them.  Because starting with the notion that god is real is not a proper way to determine whether or not god is real.  Because we have natural explanations for how the universe began, and how we all got to where we are now.  Because millions of people suffer horrible amounts every day.  Because there are no such things as miracles.  Because there is no evidence of the supernatural.  Because there have been thousands of different gods in the history of mankind, and the belief that you are right and everyone else is wrong is foolish.  Because no matter how strongly you think God is real, other people feel just as strongly that their gods are real too.  Because even though some people say they actually can converse with God, no one has ever communicated something that no human being could possibly know without the intervention of a deity.  Because amputees are never healed.  How long do you want me to keep this up? 

God is not real Sam.  Sorry.  You've conjured it in your head. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2012, 10:02:00 AM »
Quick question to all that this relates to in what you have said, how can you say that you have never heard, seen, or understood God or whatever he tries to get through to us if you have never actually taken that first step, in saying ok God I'm gonna trust you are actually here, then do some looking into the bible (or whatever religion you want to know about) and learn exactly what it says about prayer, and then actually give its teachings a fair shot( and for the bible that's Jesus for he said he was the truth, he didn't only say it he lived it, and I can give secular qoutes talking on how only Jesus in all history out of all and any of the teachers and great teachers, only he actually lived such a life that exemplified love and the things he was actually teaching. How if not doing this can you say you know there is no God?

I worked on the assumption that God and Christianity were the way, the truth, and the light for my entire life.  Throughout that time no matter how  devoted I was to my belief NOT ONCE did God do ANYTHING that could not be explained by pure coincidence.  I've heard preachers say in the past to "not limit God", or "ask for the big things".  Well, I bought into that for a long time... Nothing.

As far as Jesus, yeah, if he existed at all (the evidence is kinda shoddy, but thats another thread), was a pretty good dude; but that is only if you believe the Bible as documentation for his life when NONE of it was written while he was allegedly alive.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 10:05:16 AM by Garja »
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2012, 03:53:57 PM »
http://www.users.ms11.net/~dejnarde/resurrect.htm

http://www.users.ms11.net/~dejnarde/mocker.htm

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

These links show the truth in Jesus, all Christianity could have been shown to be a lie if a body were found, the old testament prophecies said he would bodily rise again as well as the disciples so if that could be disproved, all of it would go with it. This is because of the fact that everything in the bible hinges on Jesus, he is the main message.

You all here have this very clever way of taking bible verses out of context and using them in the way you'd like. Now I know you've heard it a million times the out of context statement but it is part of the truth, it is also very well known in Christian theology that the bible is literal only few times and all the other times( most of the bible) is not literal and a thorough reading and re-reading is needed to dig out all the meanings that lay there. Ask and its given is in the context of asking for things within Gods will, our needs in life for food, shelter, and water are things this Verse refers to.

Sorry about my terrible grammar I know I write a bunch a run ons and what have you. Sorry I will really try my best to improve my grammar on here, I write poetry and stories it is very very rare I write formally so really sorry about that. Thanks everyone though for these conversations really I love every second of it sorry it takes me so long sometimes to respond I've been crazy busy lately and it's gonna get worse cause classes are about to start back, but I'm really enjoying talking with you all I'm gonna work harder to respond more to you all.

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2012, 03:58:14 PM »
Quick question to all that this relates to in what you have said, how can you say that you have never heard, seen, or understood God or whatever he tries to get through to us if you have never actually taken that first step, in saying ok God I'm gonna trust you are actually here, then do some looking into the bible (or whatever religion you want to know about) and learn exactly what it says about prayer, and then actually give its teachings a fair shot( and for the bible that's Jesus for he said he was the truth, he didn't only say it he lived it, and I can give secular qoutes talking on how only Jesus in all history out of all and any of the teachers and great teachers, only he actually lived such a life that exemplified love and the things he was actually teaching. How if not doing this can you say you know there is no God?

I worked on the assumption that God and Christianity were the way, the truth, and the light for my entire life.  Throughout that time no matter how  devoted I was to my belief NOT ONCE did God do ANYTHING that could not be explained by pure coincidence.  I've heard preachers say in the past to "not limit God", or "ask for the big things".  Well, I bought into that for a long time... Nothing.

As far as Jesus, yeah, if he existed at all (the evidence is kinda shoddy, but thats another thread), was a pretty good dude; but that is only if you believe the Bible as documentation for his life when NONE of it was written while he was allegedly alive.

Your statements aren't historically factual they were theories but they never were found to be true.

Can I ask in what way did God let you down or what exactly made you stop believing? It's just very interesting to me if you don't mind my asking.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #112 on: August 05, 2012, 05:17:17 PM »
Samuelke, I'd like to see you respond to post # 105.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Garja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #113 on: August 05, 2012, 08:32:54 PM »
Your statements aren't historically factual they were theories but they never were found to be true.

Can I ask in what way did God let you down or what exactly made you stop believing? It's just very interesting to me if you don't mind my asking.

What exactly was not historically factual?  We know the gospels were written several decades after Christs life, we know that there are no original documents about his life.  However, doesn't really matter, I still believe that there was a person "Jesus", I just do not believe he was divine.

And, no, that is quite fine.... you have not offended me by asking.

However, it is not going to be the story you were most likely expecting.  There is no story of tragic loss here, or unanswered prayers causing me to lose faith.  It was simply making a real effort to look at my faith subjectively.  I made an attempt to examine Christianity in light of historical facts.  I tried to abandon my beliefs that were based only on what I was told to be true and really looked at the history of it (I have a degree in history btw) how the Bible was written, how it does not stand up to any scientific scrutiny.... and the facts are sorely lacking.  The whole thing is incredibly unlikely.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #114 on: August 05, 2012, 10:12:03 PM »
...all Christianity could have been shown to be a lie if a body were found...

I don't actually need to have Christianity shown to be a lie.  It is more than sufficient for My needs that I find it underwhelming and uninspiring, laden with guilt trips, threats, broken promises and nonsensical mythology.

But on the subject of the body, please ponder this:  What's the difference between:

  • A body missing because someone was resurrected and wandered off; versus
  • A body that never existed because the protagonist of the story was mythological?

In one case, the resurrection story would be true; in the other, it would be false.  How do you tell one from the other?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #115 on: August 05, 2012, 10:30:04 PM »
However, it is not going to be the story you were most likely expecting.  There is no story of tragic loss here, or unanswered prayers causing me to lose faith.  It was simply making a real effort to look at my faith subjectively.  I made an attempt to examine Christianity in light of historical facts.  I tried to abandon my beliefs that were based only on what I was told to be true and really looked at the history of it (I have a degree in history btw) how the Bible was written, how it does not stand up to any scientific scrutiny.... and the facts are sorely lacking.  The whole thing is incredibly unlikely.

I think you meant objectively.
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