Author Topic: World views with no God  (Read 15694 times)

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2012, 04:20:53 PM »
Sorry I was on a camping trip with my girlfriend that's why I haven't been able to reply but for me Meaning in my life comes from love, different passions and expressions, this whole world around us the people in it and all the life in it, and untill a couple years ago I never truly and fully believed in God but now I do and this is also something that brings meaning to my life.

What is it about your belief in God that gives meaning to your life that you wouldn't otherwise have without it?  From the rest of your post, it seems like you have lots of meaning in your life that has nothing to do with God. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2012, 08:36:34 PM »
I'm interested in your spiritual "evolution"...You say you were 15 when you started doubting there was a god. What religion were you raised in and what made you start to doubt that the stories were true?

You are 22 now. So over the course of 7 years you began losing your faith (presumably it must have been a bit of a process judging by the way you worded it). How far toward being a non-believer had you come when you began blieving again? What prompted this return? You say you now "truly and deeply" believe in god. How do you see your mindset from whatever period of time it was that you were drifting into atheism or agnosticism? Why do you think you were wrong?

I honestly would like to know.

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2012, 02:25:37 AM »
OK, first I'll say that while all these things that I spoke of as having meaning do bring that meaning in their own ways, God brings in a deeper and truer meaning to all parts of my life now.

Before I really found my belief all these same things were what brought me meaning and though I had some rougher days I never quite living life and trying. I've probably made more mistakes in the last 5 years or so than the rest of my life. So my first doubts came from realities in life and thinking that lead to questioning.

I was raised Baptist but, for as long as I can remember, I spent every church service drawing or writing. There were little phases where I would get interested and read the bible some but not for more then a couple weeks. I tried out other churches before I stepped back but I finally came to that point where I said to myself I believed these things because of my parents. I had seen them lose that credibility they have when you’re a kid and you realize that they can be wrong and you witness it. So I decided I wanted to look into things on my own terms and see what I thought. I studied a lot yet I still have much, much more to do to say the very least, but I looked into Islam, Hindu, Judaism, to naturalism, and more - but I know my search is still in the beginning stages.

When I was 18 although I had dated girls already I hadn't been in any serious relationship and would then experienced that for the first time and i thought I was in love. And her saying that back made me think she did but then I found out from someone at her work she was moving to another state to live with a guy she met on vacation.

Maybe a year or so after that one of my youngest uncle whom I was closest to out of my 9 aunts got me a job waiting tables at a place he managed. About 2 and a half months later, he was coming home and stopped for traffic and an 18 wheeler didn't stop and rear ended him. I hadn't lost anyone close to me yet in life at 19 very luckily, but that shook me like no other and left me empty for a long time; I still miss him - he was extremely dear to me.

I didn't make excellent choices through these periods but I truly don't regret anything in life, I still see my mistakes for what they are and focus on what I gained from each. I had heavy periods of doubt through all this and wasn’t taking any belief seriously. But I do remember a few times randomly praying maybe a handful of times and each time saw the answered but still not certain if it was a prayer answered or just by chance.

I came to a point though at which I concluded that if any of these religions that were possible it had to be Christianity. So I decided the only way to truly know for myself if this was it would be to give it my best shot and in meekness read the bible and search for answers and if this God were real that he would reveal himself to me.

And through eventually prayer and a personnel relationship with God he has proven himself to be real and as true as anything can possibly be. It might sound mad to some I understand and I just thank you all for giving me the chance to discuss these things in a respectful way that you all have done.

(GB: Samuelke, I have broken the above into paragraphs for ease of reading, as I think it will help.)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 03:57:55 AM by Graybeard »

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2012, 03:47:21 AM »
Ok first I'll say that while all these things that I talked about having meaning all do bring that meaning in their own ways but God brings in a deeper and truer meaning to all parts of my life now.

Like I say, glad that works for you.  But you've once again agreed that everything you had before - and that we have now - gave you meaning.  So why would you be asking us what gives OUR lives meaning?  You already knew the answer, because you've lived in that way.  So I honestly don't understand your purpose in asking the question in the first place.

.....And through eventually prayer and a personnel relationship with God.....

Can I ask you to explain the part I've bolded please?  I have personal relationships with a number of people, and in every case part of that relationship is an immediate and unambiguous two-way communication process.  Does that happen with your relationship?  If not, what does happen?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline sun_king

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2012, 04:38:36 AM »
Can I ask you to explain the part I've bolded please?  I have personal relationships with a number of people, and in every case part of that relationship is an immediate and unambiguous two-way communication process.  Does that happen with your relationship?  If not, what does happen?

You may also want to add that this two-way communication is at times accessible for a third person too. (It implies that another person hears some part of this communications, by accident or by design).

Offline Zankuu

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2012, 05:19:30 AM »
So I decided I wanted to look into things on my own terms and see what I thought. I studied a lot yet I still have much much more to do to say the very least, but I looked into Islam, Hindu, judaism, to naturalism, and more but I know my search is still in the beginning stages.

I noticed you've investigated all three Abrahamic religions. Why did you choose Christianity over the other two (Judaism and Islam)? Is your girlfriend Christian?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2012, 10:07:32 PM »
Ok first I'll say that while all these things that I talked about having meaning all do bring that meaning in their own ways but God brings in a deeper and truer meaning to all parts of my life now.

Like I say, glad that works for you.  But you've once again agreed that everything you had before - and that we have now - gave you meaning.  So why would you be asking us what gives OUR lives meaning?  You already knew the answer, because you've lived in that way.  So I honestly don't understand your purpose in asking the question in the first place.

.....And through eventually prayer and a personnel relationship with God.....

Can I ask you to explain the part I've bolded please?  I have personal relationships with a number of people, and in every case part of that relationship is an immediate and unambiguous two-way communication process.  Does that happen with your relationship?  If not, what does happen?

Well I see what your asking but do you think that all people who don't believe in a God look at all these things the same way? But also I just am always trying to find ways to eliminate my own bias and understand as much as I can. I'm just interested in all kinds of different beliefs without excluding any and I am always wanting to hear people's and all that is contained within them. Also most forums online that discuss anything like this from either side it is not like this, I see all the time people just throwing mud at each other and I be heard before that when you do that you not only are dirty up your own hands but also the opposing party.
To answer this question I would say yes that's how it works, that's how it works to me anyway. When I was younger I remember praying a good bit but it was always very formal and it was repetitive and I never would have said these things about communicating with God. Now I really just have a conversation with him, now I have never heard him talk aloud to me but that is what it feels like, I can ask him questions and the second after I finish asking I receive a though and a overwhelming feeling that God has answered me through that thought. This is easily I would say the most ambiguous communication I have with God and another way is through when prayers that I ask him for or of something and in which ones are answered and which ones are not. He speaks to me through the world around me and experience each day I see and hear him in everything. For me the number one for communication though is when I am in prayer and asking questions and reading the bible and in this is the least ambiguous way to understand him. In this when I get an answer from him there is zero doubt for me honestly I know what he is try to teach me.

Offline sun_king

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2012, 10:28:33 PM »
Samuelke, I cannot help but wonder about the nature of the questions you ask. Are you aware that you hold the answers to all the great questions that mankind has? If I were you, I'd start with asking how to make anti-gravity work. Have you ever tried asking for a solution to something that keeps harming humanity? Cancer, for example.

Have you ever asked god about the name of our forum?

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2012, 12:20:57 AM »
So I decided I wanted to look into things on my own terms and see what I thought. I studied a lot yet I still have much much more to do to say the very least, but I looked into Islam, Hindu, judaism, to naturalism, and more but I know my search is still in the beginning stages.

I noticed you've investigated all three Abrahamic religions. Why did you choose Christianity over the other two (Judaism and Islam)? Is your girlfriend Christian?

Well I could give a very long answer or the shorter version and I won't do the long since my post are already wordy enough. Starting with Judaism which their holy book is the Torah which is basically the old testemant plus their own additions. For me I see the 40 plus prophecies in the old testament of Jesus And all he did and each came true in the new testament. Yes their has been changes through all the translations while some deliberately tried to mess up the teachings in it yet the main belief and the most imporatant ideas are still there and are the same as to what the disciples believed. The main idea there being jesus is the only way to the father and in knowing him and believing in him is the only way to heaven not good deeds for it says over and over you can have the most good deeds out of anyone ever but it is not ultimately what gets you to heaven. If there was a God to me it makes so much sense for him to send a Jesus like person because how else are we to understand him better then if he sent us a messenger of himself in a human body to relay us his word. It is the ultimate way to relate to us there isn't a better way. And in the bible Jesus gives and explanation of the human heart and human condition that if you have read is corresponding to life itself. I also for as long as I remember I never understood how in Judaism they can believe now that Jesus was a good teacher and prophet but not the messiah, but that would be blasphemy to say because Jesus proclaimed to be God and I'd you don't believe that then you have to take him as a mad man.
So now Islam and i said before that they believe there is no compulsion in religion which basically means you have no choice you must believe Islam or in their countries most of the time the penalty is death. Ravi zacharias who is from India born into the Islamic faith but he say down with a leader in the Islamic political realm and asked the man what he would do if his daughter were to believe in Christianity what would he do. He answered that he would kill her. That is what kind of government has risen from Islam which doesn't give it's people the choice to believe. America while now our government has gone against its constitution but the fact is no other religion in the world could have produced that constitution because it is the only one that gives freedom and equality. The Quran says that there is a degree of equality but it isn't full equality in the sense Allah sees an intelligent person more worthy then one who is isn't. Also any Islamic person will tell you that the Quran is the perfect Word for word revelation from Allah through Muhammad. The true Christian belief whether or not all Christians proclaim it is the bible is not word for word perfect and the opposite simply isn't true. Personally I have a lot of issues with wording language itself is so ambiguous at times. The same issue comes up with how they think he is a good prophet even to a higher degree considering all the claims they make about Jesus.

On a whole different note I can can't one two hands the times I've been to church in the last few years the only one I've been to is non-denominational. Personally I think it is extremely hard to find a good church most of them are currupt and this in the bible is a very great evil.

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012, 12:27:56 AM »
Samuelke, I cannot help but wonder about the nature of the questions you ask. Are you aware that you hold the answers to all the great questions that mankind has? If I were you, I'd start with asking how to make anti-gravity work. Have you ever tried asking for a solution to something that keeps harming humanity? Cancer, for example.

Have you ever asked god about the name of our forum?


Yes in fact I do I almost always in prayer as that God bless all of humanity and help every human. Also I ask him to help me in every way I possibly can to do the most to help this world to all my capacities in all the problems the world faces. There is always room to progress in prayer and in this area and all others I strive every day to improve and try harder to understand what I need to be praying about.

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012, 12:50:58 AM »
Now I really just have a conversation with him, now I have never heard him talk aloud to me but that is what it feels like, I can ask him questions and the second after I finish asking I receive a though and a overwhelming feeling that God has answered me through that thought. This is easily I would say the most ambiguous communication I have with God and another way is through when prayers that I ask him for or of something and in which ones are answered and which ones are not. He speaks to me through the world around me and experience each day I see and hear him in everything. For me the number one for communication though is when I am in prayer and asking questions and reading the bible and in this is the least ambiguous way to understand him. In this when I get an answer from him there is zero doubt for me honestly I know what he is try to teach me.

Is there anything in your personal relationship and communication with your God that could not be due entirely to your imagination?

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2012, 12:55:13 AM »
Oh and my girlfriend was raised in a somewhat Christian household but much more and for a longer time then me she doubted it all and was agnostic when we started dating. I never tried to get her to believe what I did it just isn't what I ever do. She would ask me question after question though about many things not just Christianity but she has now found her belief in it. But me when we're first started dating I was just getting into reading the bible and building my belief so through many many conversations we helped lead each other to our beliefs and I didn't realize this untill later when I really saw the effect of god in my life and how he brought a lot of things together at the perfect time.

Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2012, 01:07:20 AM »
Now I really just have a conversation with him, now I have never heard him talk aloud to me but that is what it feels like, I can ask him questions and the second after I finish asking I receive a though and a overwhelming feeling that God has answered me through that thought. This is easily I would say the most ambiguous communication I have with God and another way is through when prayers that I ask him for or of something and in which ones are answered and which ones are not. He speaks to me through the world around me and experience each day I see and hear him in everything. For me the number one for communication though is when I am in prayer and asking questions and reading the bible and in this is the least ambiguous way to understand him. In this when I get an answer from him there is zero doubt for me honestly I know what he is try to teach me.

Is there anything in your personal relationship and communication with your God that could not be due entirely to your imagination?

I believe absolutely not I understand if you see it as that and that's ok. But my imagination is very large I work with kids so I really need that but at the same time I know myself to be logical. Certain events and prayers answered in my life which is only a handful of times this happened but I saw Gods answer so clearly it left me speechless. My imagination didn't show me those things it was actual real life things I saw and there was no way to question if it wasn't him. My faith in God isn't blind like many Christians will tell you, it is a faith simialar to the faith I have in my girlfriend and my best friend Ryan. I trust what they say and that is honest and they will come through for me because they have so many times before. I trust God in a way similar to that he has proven himself true to me over and over again.

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2012, 02:11:39 AM »
Certain events and prayers answered in my life which is only a handful of times this happened but I saw Gods answer so clearly it left me speechless. My imagination didn't show me those things it was actual real life things I saw and there was no way to question if it wasn't him.

Can you give us an example, please, of an event in your life that demonstrated conclusively that your God was communicating with you and that could not be due to your personal interpretation of the event in question (in other words, due to your imagination)? Obviously, the event's occurrence is not due to your imagination, but your interpretation of the event as a personal relationship with your God is surely a subjective assessment, is it not?

Quote
My faith in God isn't blind like many Christians will tell you, it is a faith similar to the faith I have in my girlfriend and my best friend Ryan. I trust what they say and that is honest and they will come through for me because they have so many times before. I trust God in a way similar to that he has pr oven himself true to me over and over again.

Let's explore this a little. Is your personal relationship with your girlfriend or best friend really similar to your personal relationship with your God or are they completely different? I'll give you some examples to compare.

A personal relationship is a connection between two or more people. With that in mind, suppose a resourceful security agency was looking for a connection between you and your girlfriend. What sort of evidence could they gather to confirm that connection? Well, they could place you and your girlfriend under physical and electronic surveillance for a start. They could take photographs of the two of you together. They could collect emails and text messages and record phone calls between you and your girlfriend. They could bug you and the locations you both frequent and record conversations between you. They could ask others if they have seen the two of you together. They could track you through GPS or cell tower triangulation and note when the two of you are in the same location at the same time. In short, they could amass an enormous amount of solid evidence demonstrating a connection between you and your girlfriend.

Now, if that same security agency looked for a connection between you and your God what would they find? Would they find any of that solid evidence above or would they find absolutely no solid evidence at all? So, is your personal relationship with your God really similar to your relationship with your girlfriend or is it more like the relationship a child has with his or her imaginary friend?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2012, 04:11:38 AM »
I always want to hear people's  [views] and all that is contained within them.

Now I really just have a conversation with him, now I have never heard him talk aloud to me but that is what it feels like, I can ask him questions and the second after I finish asking I receive a though and a overwhelming feeling that God has answered me through that thought.
Tell me, if you did not believe in God, how would you explain this?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2012, 11:53:26 AM »
Well I see what your asking but do you think that all people who don't believe in a God look at all these things the same way? But also I just am always trying to find ways to eliminate my own bias and understand as much as I can. I'm just interested in all kinds of different beliefs without excluding any and I am always wanting to hear people's and all that is contained within them.
This is good - open mindedness.

But you need to be careful; if what you are doing at the end of the day is seeking out the truth, you're going to have to eventually start excluding some beliefs, yes?  Like the untrue beliefs, right?  So this requires some means of distinguishing between reality and fiction...

...and if you are truly trying to eliminate personal bias:
Quote
Now I really just have a conversation with him, now I have never heard him talk aloud to me but that is what it feels like, I can ask him questions and the second after I finish asking I receive a though and a overwhelming feeling that God has answered me through that thought.
Does your above quote sound like you've really segregated your bias in your search for truth?

Quote
Also most forums online that discuss anything like this from either side it is not like this, I see all the time people just throwing mud at each other and I be heard before that when you do that you not only are dirty up your own hands but also the opposing party.
Mudslinging is pretty much an guarantee when you're talking about an interweb forum set up for discussion, debate, and argumentation on topics that have high emotional buy-in.  The important thing is to keep your civility, which so far doesn't seem to be any problem for you.  I do suggest that if you *do* see less than civil discourse on this board that you keep in mind that most everyone posting on this board is human and is bound to, once in a while, spiral down to the 'less than civil' side of the spectrum.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Boots

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2012, 12:35:12 PM »
Hey there Sam.  Welcome to our mostly happy home.

I have a question for you.  Are you aware of the psycholgocial phenomenon in which the human mind is evolved specifically to fill in patterns, even when they're not there?  Like those puzzles/brain teasers that show a partial picutre, and your brain fills in the rest?  This is a well-documented survival response.  It manifests in a lot of ways, and will always mainfest in such a way as to incorporate our expectations and individual experiences.  For example, someone who is very religious may hear a moaning wind through their house and hear god's voice; someone very superstitious re: ghosts may be certain their house is haunted; someone who is a non-superstitous handyman will wonder where the air is leaking in.

Have you explored the possibility that you are answering your own questions during prayer--that you really already KNOW the answers?  (in my experience, lots of folks--self included--already know the answer when they ask for friends' help/opinion/$0.02)  That you're "inserting god" when he may not be there--seeing "his answers" to your prayers when they really are examples of sh1t happening?
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

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Offline Samuelke

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2012, 03:11:42 AM »
Certain events and prayers answered in my life which is only a handful of times this happened but I saw Gods answer so clearly it left me speechless. My imagination didn't show me those things it was actual real life things I saw and there was no way to question if it wasn't him.

Can you give us an example, please, of an event in your life that demonstrated conclusively that your God was communicating with you and that could not be due to your personal interpretation of the event in question (in other words, due to your imagination)? Obviously, the event's occurrence is not due to your imagination, but your interpretation of the event as a personal relationship with your God is surely a subjective assessment, is it not?

Quote
My faith in God isn't blind like many Christians will tell you, it is a faith similar to the faith I have in my girlfriend and my best friend Ryan. I trust what they say and that is honest and they will come through for me because they have so many times before. I trust God in a way similar to that he has pr oven himself true to me over and over again.

Let's explore this a little. Is your personal relationship with your girlfriend or best friend really similar to your personal relationship with your God or are they completely different? I'll give you some examples to compare.

A personal relationship is a connection between two or more people. With that in mind, suppose a resourceful security agency was looking for a connection between you and your girlfriend. What sort of evidence could they gather to confirm that connection? Well, they could place you and your girlfriend under physical and electronic surveillance for a start. They could take photographs of the two of you together. They could collect emails and text messages and record phone calls between you and your girlfriend. They could bug you and the locations you both frequent and record conversations between you. They could ask others if they have seen the two of you together. They could track you through GPS or cell tower triangulation and note when the two of you are in the same location at the same time. In short, they could amass an enormous amount of solid evidence demonstrating a connection between you and your girlfriend.

Now, if that same security agency looked for a connection between you and your God what would they find? Would they find any of that solid evidence above or would they find absolutely no solid evidence at all? So, is your personal relationship with your God really similar to your relationship with your girlfriend or is it more like the relationship a child has with his or her imaginary friend?

I'll give this personnel example first and give more later if you all would like sorry I haven't had much time to get on here I worked from 9 to 9 today but the weekend will help with that. There was this night maybe 3 or so years ago when me and my friend were sitting on my roof talking. I was very much doubting at the time and I said something along the lines of what if there isn't any real substantial good or joy for us in life or what if God doesn't really exist. Right as I said that last word as the last waves came out from me, I saw in the night sky the biggest and longest lasting shooting star I have ever seen flashed across for at least 2 or 3 seconds it was just one of the most amazing things I've seen in the beauty of nature. I really thought my friend wasn't looking and didn't see but speechless I looked at him and he said did you see what I just saw? This left me in awe but it was still later on once I found my belief.
Now I'd like to share a segment from ravi zacharias telling the testimony of a friend and it's a little long but this is one of the most compelling things I've ever heard for my belief personally. I copy and pasted from an article sharing his story.

Throughout history, the Old and New Testaments have shown themselves to be reliable and true; they rise up to outlive their pallbearers, if you will. The following story probably stirs my own confidence in the power of God’s Word and His sovereignty more than any other. Let me share part of it with you today.

I was ministering in Vietnam in 1971, and one of my interpreters was Hien Pham, an energetic young Christian. He had worked as a translator with the American forces, and was of immense help both to them and to missionaries such as myself. Hien and I traveled the length of the country and became very close friends before I returned home. We did not know if our paths would ever cross again. Seventeen years later, I received a telephone call. "Brother Ravi?" the man asked. Immediately, I recognized Hien’s voice, and he soon told me his story.

Shortly after Vietnam fell, Hien was imprisoned on accusations of helping the Americans. His jailers tried to indoctrinate him against democratic ideals and the Christian faith. He was forced to read only communist propaganda in French or Vietnamese, and the daily deluge of Marx and Engels began to take its toll. "Maybe," he thought, "I have been lied to. Maybe God does not exist. Maybe the West has deceived me." So Hien determined that when he awakened the next day, he would not pray anymore or think of his faith.

The next morning, he was assigned the dreaded chore of cleaning the prison latrines. As he cleaned out a tin can overflowing with toilet paper, his eye caught what seemed to be English printed on one piece of paper. He hurriedly grabbed it, washed it, and after his roommates had retired that night, he retrieved the paper and read the words, "Romans, Chapter 8." Trembling, he began to read, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. … For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:28,38,39).

Hien wept. He knew his Bible, and he knew that there was not a more relevant passage for one on the verge of surrender. He cried out to God, asking forgiveness. This was to have been the first day that he would not pray; evidently God had other plans.

As it were, there was an official in the camp who was using a Bible as toilet paper. So Hien asked the commander if he could clean the latrines regularly. Each day he picked up a portion of Scripture, cleaned it off, and added it to his collection of nightly reading.

Then the day came when, through an equally providential set of circumstances, Hien was released from prison. He promptly began to make plans to leave the country and to construct a boat for the escape of him and 53 others. All was going according to plan until days before their departure. Four Vietcong knocked on Hien’s door and said they had heard of his escape. He denied it and they left. Hien felt relieved, but at the same time disappointed with himself. He made a promise to God—fervently hoping that God would not take him up on it—that if the Vietcong returned, he would tell them the truth. He was thoroughly shaken when only a few hours before they were to set sail, the four men returned. When questioned again, he confessed the truth. To Hien’s astonishment, the men leaned forward and, in hushed tones, asked if they could go with him!

In an utterly incredible escape plan, all 58 of them found themselves on the high seas, suddenly engulfed by a violent storm. Hien cried out to God, "Did you bring us here to die?" But then he said to me, "Brother Ravi, if it were not for the sailing ability of those four Vietcong, we would not have made it." They arrived safely in Thailand, and years later Hien arrived on American soil where today he is a businessman.

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2012, 05:03:52 AM »
There was this night maybe 3 or so years ago when me and my friend were sitting on my roof talking. I was very much doubting at the time and I said something along the lines of what if there isn't any real substantial good or joy for us in life or what if God doesn't really exist. Right as I said that last word as the last waves came out from me, I saw in the night sky the biggest and longest lasting shooting star I have ever seen flashed across for at least 2 or 3 seconds it was just one of the most amazing things I've seen in the beauty of nature. I really thought my friend wasn't looking and didn't see but speechless I looked at him and he said did you see what I just saw? This left me in awe but it was still later on once I found my belief.

This is an example of a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Let’s look at the sequence of events. You question the existence of your God. You see a meteor. You imagine it is your God communicating with you. I can only wonder what you would believe right now if, at the moment the meteor sighting occurred, you had been questioning the existence of Santa Claus.

Meteors are common natural occurrences. They are not, per se, evidence of your God’s existence. That you see the coincidence as evidence that your God is real merely suggests that you are easily persuaded to believe something. Do you imagine that every meteor you see is a message from your God or only if you happen to be thinking about your God at the time? In other words, are you succumbing to confirmation bias?

The touching testimonial you used as your second example is more of the same. I immediately began to doubt its credibility when I saw this blatant falsehood.

Quote
Throughout history, the Old and New Testaments have shown themselves to be reliable and true…

Again, is there anything in your personal relationship with your God that could not be due entirely to your imagination?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2012, 07:59:20 AM »
.....I was very much doubting at the time and I said something along the lines of what if there isn't any real substantial good or joy for us in life or what if God doesn't really exist. Right as I said that last word as the last waves came out from me, I saw in the night sky the biggest and longest lasting shooting star I have ever seen flashed across for at least 2 or 3 seconds it was just one of the most amazing things I've seen in the beauty of nature. ....

Some serious questions.

1) Are you suggested that - to counter your wavering - god materialised a meteor and caused it to flash down through the atmosphere?  That he engineered a significant change in the nature of reality purely to assist your faith?  If so, see question 1A.

1A) How would you comment on those people here who were also once believers, but who (despite fervert prayer) never got the sign you were given?  Further, you realise that you have just asserted the existence of a being who will make dramatic changes to reality for the sake of some kid's wavering faith.  Given that you assert a directly interventionist god, why famine?  Why child abuse?  Why anything that god isn't keen on?  You don't even have to have him jumping in and taking physical action - if he is so keen on directly observable signs, why not just have something similar when one does something bad?

2) Was the meteor visible to anyone else on the planet?  What if (say) a Muslim was questioning the existence of Allah at just that point?  They saw YOUR meteor, and assumed it was a specific sign from them, so YOUR wavering has led to someone else moving further away from the one true faith.

2a) Why would your god value your faith over that of others?  Why would a god that - allegedly - wants a  relationship with everyone do something so misinterpretable as being the actions of a different god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Barracuda

Re: World views with no God
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2012, 08:30:24 AM »
Samuelke; How do you explain the absence of such a "sign" or whatever available to others when doubting god's existence? Do you think he wanted you to have proof but not others?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2012, 08:54:10 AM »
Now I'd like to share a segment from ravi zacharias telling the testimony of a friend .....

So the best evidence you could think of to post is a glurge about a man you don't know, told by another man you don't know?  Tell me - what checking have you done on the truth behind this story, or did you just accept it wholesale because it matches your preconceptions?

So far as the pieces of Bible go....I find it entirely unsurprising that a secret Christian would leave THAT kind of verse in the camp.  They'd know the sort of things people were thinking about, so would leave that kind of verse to be found.  Nothing mystical about it.

Or ARE you contending that something unusual was taking place?  If so, which of the following best describes what you believe happened in this case?

1) The paper he found was created by Yahweh in the correct spot shortly before he found it.  If so, see 1a.

2) The paper was produced by a human being at Yahweh's direction.  If so, see 2a.

1a)  Similarly to my previous questions - you are asserting a god that directly and physically intervenes in the world, producing physical items out of the ether.  Since this is what you believe happens, then I repeat: why famine?  Why poverty?  Why anything physically bad?  You have asserted a god who will take direct and physical action to change the world....so why restrict himself to little bits of paper?

2a) And again, a similar question.  Knowing what was needed, Yahweh would (at the very least) have had to speak directly to the writer and tell him what to put, and where.  I note that Hien collected all these papers.....thus denying them to any other person of wavering faith in the camp.  What was Yahweh's beef with all the guys there who DIDN'T get left bits of paper?  If he'd go to that much trouble for one, why not the next person?

You can apply similar questions to Hien's decision to tell the guards what was going on.....and you can add to that a further question.  Your assertion is that Yahweh spoke directly to Hien and told him "tell the guards where to meet".  Which begs the question.....if the guards were so crucial to the mission, what if Hien had not done what he was told....if he'd denied the escape again....then 50+ people would have died.  What a chance for Yahweh to take!  Given that Yahweh was quite happy to speak to someone directly about the escape.....why not simply speak to one of the guards and say "just be here at this time...." and pass on the details directly?

See, its such a convoluted story.  On the one hand, you've got Yahweh making specific and detailed plans of what he wants to happen.....then taking the most obscure and convoluted path to make things work out.  Doesn't add up, for a god so happy to pop down for a chat and alter the world to make things work.

Oh, and just one final question.....who was it sent the terrible and violent storm that nearly drowned this poor Christian and his 50-odd friends, hmmm?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2012, 11:35:10 AM »
In an utterly incredible escape plan, all 58 of them found themselves on the high seas, suddenly engulfed by a violent storm. Hien cried out to God, "Did you bring us here to die?" But then he said to me, "Brother Ravi, if it were not for the sailing ability of those four Vietcong, we would not have made it." They arrived safely in Thailand, and years later Hien arrived on American soil where today he is a businessman.

I wonder if it would be possible to find some of those other 57 individuals to corroborate the story?  That wouldn't be a bad start to answering the question 'Is this story *true*'?  Google isn't being too helpful in trying to find some answers, but I'm not sure I'd really expect to find anything like news stories or anything like that in this case.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any more details regarding the anecdote.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Graybeard

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2012, 04:59:52 PM »
Throughout history, the Old and New Testaments have shown themselves to be reliable and true;
This is simply not so. The Bible, OT and NT, has consistently been shown to be a mixture of folk-tales, errors and poor chronology and genealogy
Quote
The following story probably stirs my own confidence in the power of God’s Word and His sovereignty more than any other. Let me share part of it with you today.

<snip> someone goes by boat to Thailand.
Do you know, that proved nothing at all, thousands of people left Vietnam by boat, some made it, some didn’t.

Did God kill all the ones who didn’t make it? If so, why?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline wael

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2012, 06:28:10 PM »
      I want you to ask yourself how this complex computer  you're setting on was found, Of course someone had created it , Then how this complex vast universe was created ,should have a creator our god (Allah) mine and yours , for that we are called creatures
  I want to know why you thought that ? Everything around you in the nature is a great evidence on the presence of god controls that universe
     Have you asked yourself before why the sun rises everyday on time & sets on time ,too?
     Have you asked yourself about the integration in the forests and in animal world that never spoils except when the human hands reached it ? I'll tell you why because all the universe moves on the regulations which our god had put except the humans who disobey so there life is always in contradictions .
                                    Have you heard about a Holly Book?
  Of course , but if you think it is the Gospel then you're wrong as there is another holy book came from the sky , It's  The Holly Quran
        I only ask you to read in it and hear what this book says and if you haven't changed your mind then I'd be donkey .
                                             There a small part of Quran listen to 19:03 minute
                                           
                                                                                                                                         
   52. Say, “Have you considered? If it is from God and you reject it—who is further astray than he who is cutoff and alienated?”

53. We will show them Our proofs on the horizons, and in their very souls, until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient that your Lord is witness over everything?

54. Surely they are in doubt about the encounter with their Lord. Surely He comprehends everything.
                                         
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 06:29:55 PM by wael »

Offline HAL

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2012, 06:33:05 PM »
     Have you asked yourself about the integration in the forests and in animal world that never spoils except when the human hands reached it ?

Or unless a volcano spoils it or a hurricane spoils it or an asteroid spoils it or a huge wildfire started by lightning spoils it or when an earthquake spoils it.

Otherwise it never spoils, right.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2012, 07:00:51 PM »
     Have you asked yourself about the integration in the forests and in animal world that never spoils except when the human hands reached it ?

Or unless a volcano spoils it or a hurricane spoils it or an asteroid spoils it or a huge wildfire started by lightning spoils it or when an earthquake spoils it.

Otherwise it never spoils, right.

You forget blights, insect invasions, and floods
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline HAL

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2012, 07:06:56 PM »
You forget blights, insect invasions, and floods

I sure did! +1 Darwin to you!

Offline Quesi

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Re: World views with no God
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2012, 07:17:26 PM »
Welcome to the forum Wael.  I think you will find some smart people, and some interesting discussions.

Debates here can get heated, and I think you will find that most members expect you to present evidence for your statements. 

Please take a few moments to review the rules, and look for a forum guide if you need some help settling in. 

I look forward to learning more about you, and your beliefs.  And in spite of the fact that I do not share your religious views, I wish you a Ramadan Mubarak.