Author Topic: Colorado Movie Shooting  (Read 9027 times)

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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #145 on: July 27, 2012, 11:00:11 PM »
We have a French student living with us for the summer. It has been....interesting trying to explain to her why pretty much anyone can have a gun in this country. She saw a sports store ad in the paper with guns for sale and her eyes got big.

There is a pawn shop near our house that has a neon sigh: Guns! Guns! GUNS!

We have as many guns as we have people. Why? Because that is a right granted by our laws.

But if someone shoots you, you may not be able to afford to go to the hospital. You do not have a right to health care. Priorities.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #146 on: July 27, 2012, 11:20:02 PM »
We have a French student living with us for the summer. It has been....interesting trying to explain to her why pretty much anyone can have a gun in this country. She saw a sports store ad in the paper with guns for sale and her eyes got big.

There is a pawn shop near our house that has a neon sigh: Guns! Guns! GUNS!

We have as many guns as we have people. Why? Because that is a right granted by our laws.

But if someone shoots you, you may not be able to afford to go to the hospital. You do not have a right to health care. Priorities.

It is not our governments role to protect us from every possible harm because it is impossible for our government to do so.

Health care is a completely different issue.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #147 on: July 27, 2012, 11:21:19 PM »
If nobody has the right to kill, then there is absolutely no legal jusification for the possession of anti-personnel firearms.

Neither of us believe that, Jay.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #148 on: July 27, 2012, 11:24:53 PM »
If nobody has the right to kill, then there is absolutely no legal jusification for the possession of anti-personnel firearms.

Neither of us believe that, Jay.

We need to be able to protect our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. If guns were never invented then I would support everyone's right to bear swords. If swords were never invented I would support everyone's right to bear sticks.

Guns do exist and criminals do have them. I choose to be able to defend myself against that possible threat.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #149 on: July 27, 2012, 11:27:17 PM »
I don't care what you choose to do, Jay.  What does your choice have to do with public policy?  There's a problem you outlined:  Criminals with guns.  Other developed countries (and even a lot of third-world countries) don't have a big problem on that front.  Why do your criminals have so many guns?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #150 on: July 27, 2012, 11:32:28 PM »
I don't care what you choose to do, Jay.  What does your choice have to do with public policy?  There's a problem you outlined:  Criminals with guns.  Other developed countries (and even a lot of third-world countries) don't have a big problem on that front.  Why do your criminals have so many guns?

Do these other countries still have a problem with crime? Yes?

Why is it so much more horrible to be shot vs. cut or beat to death? I hear that in some countries you can get a cup of acid for the equivalent of .50 cents if you feel the need to throw it in someones face.

Are you trying to tell me that there is no crime in these countries you speak of?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #151 on: July 27, 2012, 11:36:38 PM »
Apologies if it's been discussed already, but what type of gun control is there in Canada Azdgari?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #152 on: July 27, 2012, 11:41:31 PM »
Do these other countries still have a problem with crime? Yes?

Why is it so much more horrible to be shot vs. cut or beat to death? I hear that in some countries you can get a cup of acid for the equivalent of .50 cents if you feel the need to throw it in someones face.

Are you trying to tell me that there is no crime in these countries you speak of?

I'm a whole lot less likely to die via a beating than I am via a gunshot wound.  But that's beside the point.  You're dodging.  You were the one who indicated that you need a gun for self-defense because criminals have guns where you live.  That's the problem you outlined.  Okay.  I'll grant that's a problem.  Now, in your last post, you're trying to paint it as no problem at all, compared to the situations in countries where those guns are less prevalent.

You are contradicting yourself.  Pick one.  Either guns in the hands of criminals are a problem, or they aren't.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #153 on: July 27, 2012, 11:43:01 PM »
Apologies if it's been discussed already, but what type of gun control is there in Canada Azdgari?

Awful, draconian stuff.  Like law-enforcement being legally allowed to check into suspicious gun purchases.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #154 on: July 27, 2012, 11:54:19 PM »
I'm a whole lot less likely to die via a beating than I am via a gunshot wound.

Prove it.

Quote
But that's beside the point.

Of coarse it is.

Quote
You're dodging.

No, I am not.

Quote
You were the one who indicated that you need a gun for self-defense because criminals have guns where you live.  That's the problem you outlined.

I never said I "needed" a gun. The word I used was choose. I choose that option because I have that right. Further, I don't want that right taken from me.

Quote
Okay.  I'll grant that's a problem.  Now, in your last post, you're trying to paint it as no problem at all, compared to the situations in countries where those guns are less prevalent.

Gun violence is not going to occur in countries where the majority of the people do no have access to guns. Except in countries where the criminals or government type criminals have access to guns in order to suppress the unarmed citizens of that country.

Quote
You are contradicting yourself.  Pick one.  Either guns in the hands of criminals are a problem, or they aren't.

I don't see the contradiction, of coarse. However, guns in the hands of criminals are a problem. How do we keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

edit
fixed quotes
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #155 on: July 28, 2012, 12:07:50 AM »
Prove it.

Seriously?  Prove that getting beaten is less likely to kill me than getting shot?  I'm not talking about beaten when the intent is murder.  I'm talking about the more common kind of beating.

No, I am not.

Yes you are.  And badly.

I never said I "needed" a gun. The word I used was choose. I choose that option because I have that right. Further, I don't want that right taken from me.

And you're keeping at it, this time by focusing on the word "need".  Presumably having a gun gives you some greater degree of personal defense against these gun-toting criminals than not having one does.  Otherwise, you would defend yourself with something else.  That's only rational.  Agreed?

Gun violence is not going to occur in countries where the majority of the people do no have access to guns. Except in countries where the criminals or government type criminals have access to guns in order to suppress the unarmed citizens of that country.

Hmm.  So the prevalence of guns is a problem, is it?  Wierd.  I thought the prevalence of guns was supposed to make you safer.

I don't see the contradiction, of coarse. However, guns in the hands of criminals are a problem. How do we keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

So it's a problem.  Let's go back to where we started, before you started dodging.  Criminals have the legal right to obtain the means to kill others more easily.  This militates against others' right to life.  Maybe arming everyone else helps to mitigate this, but the stats on gun deaths say otherwise - it's clearly not a break-even counter, in terms of results.

How did the criminals get so many guns?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #156 on: July 28, 2012, 12:10:06 AM »


How do we keep guns out of the hands of criminals?


Use the swords you mention in reply 148 to remove their hands. Seems obvious to me.

Sorry. I just can't resist. I know its an important topic. Please carry on.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #157 on: July 28, 2012, 12:32:58 AM »
Seriously?  Prove that getting beaten is less likely to kill me than getting shot?  I'm not talking about beaten when the intent is murder.  I'm talking about the more common kind of beating.

And I was talking about being beat to death. It does happen. Also, being shot does not equal being killed. There were, what...80 people shot in that theater? Plus, beatings should not be common either. I am sad that they are so common in your country.

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And you're keeping at it, this time by focusing on the word "need".  Presumably having a gun gives you some greater degree of personal defense against these gun-toting criminals than not having one does.  Otherwise, you would defend yourself with something else.  That's only rational.  Agreed?

Agreed. If you could guarantee me that NO one has a gun...then I would still enjoy shooting them and probably go pay money to rent one at a gun range like they do in Canada and Japan.

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Hmm.  So the prevalence of guns is a problem, is it?  Wierd.  I thought the prevalence of guns was supposed to make you safer.

If access to guns is equal for everyone then yes, it makes you safer...if they are only available for criminals then no. If guns are ONLY available for law abiding citizens then only people with criminal intent need fear guns. Which brings me back to the question of how you propose to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

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So it's a problem.  Let's go back to where we started, before you started dodging.  Criminals have the legal right to obtain the means to kill others more easily.

No...they do not legally have that "right".

Quote
This militates against others' right to life.  Maybe arming everyone else helps to mitigate this, but the stats on gun deaths say otherwise - it's clearly not a break-even counter, in terms of results.

They violate other peoples rights. Which is not tolerated. Please show me that stats on gun deaths that were prevented by law abiding citizens using their right to bear arms in order to protect people. You will have difficulty if you try to find stats on that, because it's not generally reported and hard to quantify.

Quote
How did the criminals get so many guns?

Illegally
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #158 on: July 28, 2012, 12:46:32 AM »
And I was talking about being beat to death. It does happen. Also, being shot does not equal being killed. There were, what...80 people shot in that theater? Plus, beatings should not be common either. I am sad that they are so common in your country.

I wonder how many people would have been killed had he tried to beat them all to death.  Surely just as many, given that beatings are just as deadly as gunshots.

Agreed. If you could guarantee me that NO one has a gun...then I would still enjoy shooting them and probably go pay money to rent one at a gun range like they do in Canada and Japan.

"Need" is relative to a goal.  You don't "need" a gun in order to survive.  You do "need" a gun in order to enjoy whatever level of safety it is you think that the gun provides.  Anyway, my only point there was to get you to admit that criminals having guns is a problem.  Which is wied, though, because apparently beatings are just as deadly.  Why don't criminals just use that?  It's definitely cheaper.

If access to guns is equal for everyone then yes, it makes you safer...if they are only available for criminals then no. If guns are ONLY available for law abiding citizens then only people with criminal intent need fear guns.

Access to guns is pretty much equal for everyone in America, isn't it?  And yet you talk about criminals having guns as being a problem.  Why is it a problem?  It's already been solved, after all:  Equal access to guns exists in America.  Problem = nullified, right?

Which brings me back to the question of how you propose to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

I'm not going to answer that question until my original point is out of the way.  Until then, it's a dodge.

No...they do not legally have that "right".

Criminals have the legal right to obtain firearms, per your 2nd Amendment.
Firearms allow people to kill others more easily than if they did not have firearms.
Ergo, criminals have the legal right to obtain the ability to kill others more easily.  Which is exactly what I said.  Saying "nuh-uh" doesn't negate this logic, outside of conservative circles.

They violate other peoples rights. Which is not tolerated. Please show me that stats on gun deaths that were prevented by law abiding citizens using their right to bear arms in order to protect people. You will have difficulty if you try to find stats on that, because it's not generally reported and hard to quantify.

Mathematically, I don't have to.  However many are prevented, the deaths that do happen are staggering.

X = Murders that would occur if law-abiding citizens did not have firearms.
Y = Murders prevented by the fact that law-abiding citizens carry firearms.
Z = X - Y.

We don't need to have X and Y, because we have Z, and Z is what happens in the real world.

Illegally

You cannot possibly know this.  Even your law-enforcement authorities are not allowed to know this.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #159 on: July 28, 2012, 12:58:39 AM »
@Azdgari

I gots to get to sleep. I'll address your comment tomorrow evening.

I love you, good night.
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #160 on: July 28, 2012, 01:20:43 AM »
I love threads like this. I've been gone another week and have had no chance to follow this or any other thread, but at least with this one I know two things: Some are very against guns and want them banned when something like this latest murder happens, and others love 'em and don't think bullet-firing weapons are guilty of anything. Am I right or what?

Here's the thing. We live in a complex and unplanned society that worships individualism. And as individuals, we succeed or fail via a multitude of often uncontrolled variables. Hence wconstantly produce losers as well as winners. And some of those losers, either because of social or mental defects, will go, as we call it, postal.

But this is only one of the many selfish ways we kill folks. We don't seem to get to disturbed by all the car deaths we suffer every year. Not many are calling for the banning of automobiles, even though kill 10x more in cars every day than were killed in the theatre. And occasionally madmen (and/or women) deliberately wreck their vehicle and take folks with them.

Industrial accidents, you know, where people do jobs so you can have things to buy, kill 1000 people a year in the US.

People who are nice enough to kill at more reasonable rates still manage, as a group, still kill over 16,000 of us a year. That they are nice enough to do it in less flamboyant ways to smaller numbers at a time is much appreciated, but otherwise their activities are no more socially acceptable.

What we are shocked by here, when we find too many bodies in one place at one time, is the obviously senselessness of the venture. Only the innocent suffered. In large numbers. A guy killed a door-to-door salesman the other day in Florida for trespassing on his property. But he only shot one. Equally senseless, but socially more manageable, numbers-wise. However the dead guy is just as sadly and unnecessarily gone as the people in the theatre.

We react to scale more than we react to reality. But this group killing thing is nothing new. In 1927, a guy in Michigan pissed off about taxes blew up a schoolhouse with dynamite and killed 39 kids. Back when I was in high school a guy in Chicago killed 8 student nurses one night in their rooming house. He used a knife. We are a country of multi-talented people, and a lack of guns will not deter the determined.

We live in a society that is better at producing guys like James Holmes than it is in producing the likes of Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. The fix will never be as simple as getting rid of guns (though I'd love to), nor will any one change in our society do the trick. To beat the drum of a simple solution is to make noise and nothing else. I have yet to see anyone ask why we, as a society, don't put some energy into making things a bit fairer for all, and less stressful. Until we can create a society that actually functions for all, we will, as a byproduct, produce the periodic madman.

Actually, I'm pretty amazed that such mass murders don't happen more often. If we can keep out disgruntled mad men down to just one or two a year, that may, by default, be as close to a solution as we ever get.

We should always question. We should always ask. But it does no good to imagine we have the answer when, at present, one does not exist.

Addendum for clarity: I don't own a gun. Never have. Never will. I have no need for one. I have said this here before,  but it bears repeating. I would rather spend as much as my life as possible not living in fear (and thinking I have to have a gun) and be killed by a madman at some point than spend my whole life afraid, feeling a need for a gun but never needing it. I've been an adult who could legally own a gun for over 40 years, but I haven't experienced even one minute of wishing I had one.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #161 on: July 28, 2012, 01:44:38 AM »
Why do I get the feeling that comic is aimed at me?

It wasn't.  I happened to be catching up on Tom Tomorrow and thought it was relevant to our discussion.

Nice post Screwtape, it perfectly encapsulates the problem.

That vaguely sounds sarcastic, but I am not sure. If so, in what way do you disagree?

The first part was sarcastic, the second part wasn't.

In a nutshell re: the gun debate it's right.  We've had this discussion and the gun side has won.
We'll have guns for the foreseeable future, and the occasional rampage by crazy people is the price we pay for that.
To a point, I think that while terrible, this is an acceptable price.  (I'll elaborate)  It's part and parcel of what we get with a relatively open and free society.

It's similar to the concept of our justice system.  We understand that occasionally guilty people will go free as an acceptable alternative to innocent people being imprisoned.  It is definitely a price to pay, but one I can agree with intellectually.

Now, using that same analogy, if the criminal system was working fine it'd be all guilty people behind bars, because of such a high standard of evidence required.  Unfortunately there are empirically plenty of innocent people behind bars.  The system itself is broken.

Similarly, while I think that as a society we can deal with the occasional senseless violence resiliently, the system itself is broken.  It's become far *too* easy for crazy people to act out with guns, so we need to address the failings of the system, much like we need to address the failings of the criminal system.  I still submit that we should be putting our focus on the crazy people rather than the guns themselves.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #162 on: July 28, 2012, 06:28:10 AM »
MB, you've just implied that countries without America's attitude toward guns (and the accompanying massacres) are not "relatively open and free societies".  Was that your intention?  I hadn't realized you put America up on such a pedestal.
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Offline Frank

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #163 on: July 28, 2012, 06:58:17 AM »

In a nutshell re: the gun debate it's right.  We've had this discussion and the gun side has won.
We'll have guns for the foreseeable future, and the occasional rampage by crazy people is the price we pay for that.
To a point, I think that while terrible, this is an acceptable price.  (I'll elaborate)  It's part and parcel of what we get with a relatively open and free society.


America pays a far higher price than that. I live in a free and open society also and we don't have to be armed to maintain it. This is my last post on this particular thread since plainly I'm not getting through to quite a few of you. One last link fot you.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/its-guns-we-all-know-its-not-really-guns

He's one of your own. Maybe you'll listen to him instead.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #164 on: July 28, 2012, 07:35:11 AM »
Nah.  He's un-American.  Real Americans accept their country as it is, bumps and all, and don't try to improve things.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #165 on: July 28, 2012, 07:56:31 AM »
Right, If god had wanted the common folk in America to be healthy, happy and safe, he wouldn't have sent so many republicans down from heaven to save us.
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #166 on: July 28, 2012, 08:38:15 AM »
Nah.  He's un-American.  Real Americans accept their country as it is, bumps and all, and don't try to improve things.

I don't know if it's sarcasm or not, so if it is, my apology. If we didn't try improving things, theings would have been the same since colonial days i think.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #167 on: July 28, 2012, 08:49:30 AM »
I live in a free and open society also and we don't have to be armed to maintain it.






Offline Frank

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #168 on: July 28, 2012, 09:04:10 AM »
Don't see any civilians in those pictures, on the other hand......

 
   
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Offline jedweber

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #169 on: July 28, 2012, 09:07:40 AM »
Please show me that stats on gun deaths that were prevented by law abiding citizens using their right to bear arms in order to protect people. You will have difficulty if you try to find stats on that, because it's not generally reported and hard to quantify.

All the stats I've seen show that guns in the home or carried for protection are statistically FAR more likely to be involved in suicides, accidental shootings, and "crimes of passion" against family members, than actually used for protection. This has been found true repeatedly,  with multiple studies reported in medical and other journals.

Quote
Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.abstract

A different study:

Quote
"It was found that for every time a household gun was used for self-defense, there were 4 unintentional shootings, 7 criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.
...Overall, guns kept in the home were 22 times more likely to be used in unintentional shootings, murder or assault, and suicide attempts than in an act of self-defense."

Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., “Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home,” Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, 45(2) (1998): 263-267

http://www.bradycampaign.org/studies/view/102/

It's hard to deny that widespread ownership of handguns is a recipe for carnage.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #170 on: July 28, 2012, 09:16:53 AM »
Quick question for Frank before I hit the road.

If France does not have a gun problem and it's citizens are unarmed then why are your police dressed for combat? Why do they need the vests?
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Offline Frank

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #171 on: July 28, 2012, 09:27:18 AM »
Quick question for Frank before I hit the road.

If France does not have a gun problem and it's citizens are unarmed then why are your police dressed for combat? Why do they need the vests?

Well even though I'm british and not french we do have a small amount of gun crime, terrorism of course, so it is a reasonble precaution to allow a specially trained minority of the police force to be armed. They are called armed response teams. The police in this country are mostly unarmed and that's how we wish it to remain.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #172 on: July 28, 2012, 11:51:40 AM »
MB, you've just implied that countries without America's attitude toward guns (and the accompanying massacres) are not "relatively open and free societies".  Was that your intention?

Of course not, but in *this one* the price we pay for being able to have guns is that occasionally somebody will do something stupid with them. 
As with my example re: the justice system.

I'm pretty sure you can find an analogy in your own country, that works the same way.

America pays a far higher price than that. I live in a free and open society also and we don't have to be armed to maintain it. This is my last post on this particular thread since plainly I'm not getting through to quite a few of you. One last link for you.

Yeah, I get it Frank, you think America is the worst and your country is the bee's knees.

It doesn't *matter* what people think about guns at this point.  There are already tens of millions of them in the population.  It isn't even about being 'armed to maintain' a free and open society, it's simply a fact that guns are part of our country and culture.  For all practical purposes the debate about getting rid of them is pointless since it won't happen.

There is almost a zero chance that we will get a constitutional change ratified that removes the 2nd amendment.  So rather than getting upset about it, the rational way of dealing with it is to focus on the crazy people.

I've said since the beginning that focusing on the outliers, and the mentally unstable is the right way to go.

Nah.  He's un-American.  Real Americans accept their country as it is, bumps and all, and don't try to improve things.

I don't agree with this.  I think there are ways of improving the way we deal with issues like guns, drugs, prisons etc.  Moore, for what it's worth does make a lot of solid points,[1] but that said I can't agree with all of his conclusions.

Not thinking that we need to get rid of every dangerous and potentially dangerous weapon does not imply that I think we should hand them out at H.S. Graduation instead of diplomas either.




 1. I haven't seen the video linked, but I've seen a lot of his other stuff.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline HAL

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #173 on: July 28, 2012, 12:22:10 PM »
Don't see any civilians in those pictures, on the other hand......

I live in a free and open society also and we don't have to be armed to maintain it.