Author Topic: Colorado Movie Shooting  (Read 10172 times)

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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2012, 09:44:09 PM »
Quote from: jetson
"I own a gun, I keep it handy in my home to defend my life, my family, and my property" is fine with me, generally speaking.

To my mind this mindset shouldn't even exist. Heck, societies manage to survive without the need to arm themselves in their own home. The idea stinks of paranoia, if that paranoia is justified, then you're living in a scary place. Yes, I say this in a country where assaults are more than double of the US per capita, but murders are a fraction of the US's, I'd say if I were to get attacked in the UK, I'd have a much higher chance of surviving, so I am not so worried that I'd need a gun just in case something happens. Okay, we've got plenty of martial arts training weapons in the house, but they're not there as protection, my dad's just a black belt and we sometimes spar. ;)

But justified or not, it's a mindset that shouldn't exist. If it's paranoia of a just in case, then it's possible you'd end up doing more harm than good should something happen, or even think is happening and they'd prolly just be as likely as somebody threatening your life in your own home. If it is justified, then your neighbourhood shouldn't be such a horrible and scary place to live in.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2012, 09:46:56 PM »
Agreed Sep - I don't own a gun, and I don't want one in my home.  I don't want others to have guns either.  I just have to pick my battles, and much like the endless religious nonsense that so many humans feel the need to perpetuate into eternity, I'm afraid this gun thing will never go away.  We are a god and gun species.  Funny how well those always go together for certain groups.

Sad, actually.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2012, 09:54:10 PM »
Along with gun ownership and use, should come a very well-balanced attitude about it's purpose, be it hunting, or simply protection in their homes.  People with those types of attitudes don't generally run around stomping about their rights to bear arms, yadda yadda.  I know this won't be popular, but I think it's an unbelievably stupid and utterly careless thing to allow people to walk around in public with concealed weapons.  Be gentle.   ;D

I agree with most of your post there, just not the last part.  I'll CCW when I feel a need for it.  On the other hand I have experience with situations that have gone unbelievably bad before too.  I know exactly how I react in an emergency, how I respond to up close and personal violence, and I've spent a fair amount of time training with my weapons. 

In my case I can tell you that had I been there I'd likely have pulled my wife to the ground and covered her up with my body.  Then waited for a chance to run.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2012, 10:06:12 PM »
Yeah, having gone through some martial arts training, including self-defense, the only thing I can say is that I would be less likely to freak out or panic in a confrontation.  I think I would instinctively try to get away, or de-escalate if possible.  OTOH, if I had to react, I think my training would help me react more effectively, but that's about it.

Guns change the rules.  Although, in untrained hands, I have heard that it is not that difficult to avoid deadly injury.  For example, a common thief with no gun training would be very lucky to kill a person who is running away in a zig-zag pattern.  Hitting and killing a moving target is not something that anyone with a gun can pull off.

Madbunny - what would happen if you were in a situation with another CCW person who was at least as well trained as yourself?  Who would win?

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2012, 01:09:21 AM »
It's been a lot of years since I've made a point of training regularly.  I think that knowing how you react, and knowing the basic 'rules' of how to react is just as important though.

Madbunny - what would happen if you were in a situation with another CCW person who was at least as well trained as yourself?  Who would win?

What, you mean the proverbial dark alley?

If I was facing myself, we'd probably both die, or live, for a couple of reasons. 

First, I know that given adrenaline overload[1]I would need to stabilize my weapon, also that presenting a smaller target helps as the 'other person' will have the same problems re: adrenaline.  Secondly, I'll be going for center mass and using every round in the clip/chamber to reduce misses.

Finally my primary response is to avoid confrontation, having a weapon only increases that tendency with me.  My first response to an armed person is to GTFO of there.  Honestly the only time I can see using it would be if there were no way to call for help in time to save somebody, or couldn't get away.[2]

The thing about CCW carrying is that there is a trade off between concealment and draw speed.  The more concealed something is, and less 'obvious' it is the longer it takes to get to it.  Also, one of the problems with them is that they make people very self conscious, which is why I make a point of wearing it randomly.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/images/handgun_spotting.jpg


Although, in untrained hands, I have heard that it is not that difficult to avoid deadly injury.  For example, a common thief with no gun training would be very lucky to kill a person who is running away in a zig-zag pattern.  Hitting and killing a moving target is not something that anyone with a gun can pull off.

That's my understanding as well.
 1. Trust me, if you have your gun out prepared to shoot somebody your body is seriously pumped with adrenaline at that moment.  It's basic fight or flight response, that's why cops and specialists train so long and so regularly to be able to think past the bodies natural reactions.
 2. This sort of thing: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062349/Savage-beating-subway-passenger-caught-tape-police-hunt-suspects.html
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2012, 03:06:56 AM »
I think that, in keeping with the original intent of the framers, all citizens have the right to own as many 18th century era single shot front loading muskets as their little hearts desire. And they must belong to the national guard.

We all know that the founding dudes never thought that the 2nd amendment would lead to an idiot firing automatic weaponry into a crowd at a movie theater. (The concept of "movie theater" would be enough to freak them out.) They never envisioned the NRA with its millions of bucks keeping guns unregulated, either.
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Offline kindred

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2012, 05:05:59 AM »
You guys should live in Mindanao. Its a part of the Philippines where guns are called "bakal" or translated into english "steel." Guns are tools and where the Mindanao people live they are freaking integral tools. People there clump into small blood and ritual(in-laws) related communities where every family owns and knows how to properly care for and use guns. They get caught in the middle of multiple rebel groups, criminal groups and the military all clashing in a battle for territory.

Just food for thought. Laws need to reflect the culture they are in. You can't try and apply strict gun laws to a place like that. You'd effectively be murdering them if you took away their guns.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2012, 08:32:51 AM »
Frank found another way to go on a 'murica rant. Why am I not surprised?

because you have read at least 3 of his posts.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2012, 09:02:17 AM »
Now the Sunday shows are doing the same old thing they always do after these tragedies.

What are we going to do about it!

What are we going to do about it!

Offline stuffin

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2012, 10:21:30 AM »
This didn't take long......

Quote
"When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it," Rick Warren, the mega-church pastor and inspirational author, observed in a Twitter update just hours after the shootings.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/21/12879842-dont-blame-the-shootings-on-darwin-or-on-gods-wrath?lite&__utma=14933801.573072671.1342405884.1342929549.1342970201.11&__utmb=14933801.3.10.1342970201&__utmc=14933801&__utmx=-&__utmz=14933801.1342405884.1.1.utmcsr=(direct)|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=14933801.|8=Earned%20By=msnbc%7Ccover=1^12=Landing%20Content=Mixed=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=www.nbcnews.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Mixed=1&__utmk=79412500
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Offline Nick

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2012, 11:11:12 AM »
Yes, it has to be the godless society that caused this.  Seems like a lot of these shooters had a religious background.  I guess it was not the right one.

Heard today that the semi atomatic gun jammed while he was firing it.  If that had not happened many more would have been killed and wonded.  I guess God jammed it...or that is what we will hear.  God was to busy to stop it in the 1st place.
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Offline Frank

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2012, 01:11:51 PM »
Yes, it has to be the godless society that caused this.  Seems like a lot of these shooters had a religious background.  I guess it was not the right one.


There are societies that are a lot less godless than America's claims to be yet this kind of thing happens considerably less often. When it does happen outside of America it is a considerable shock but when it happens in America unfortunately it's simply par for the course.

Hey look on the brightside. Apparently when this kind of thing happens gun sales actually increase so at least someone is making some money off it. Just think the next James Holmes might be buying his first gun as we speak and will soon be coming to a cinema near you.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2012, 01:41:04 PM »
Maybe its better to wait for HBO.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2012, 02:37:31 PM »
Yeah, I wonder whether more people will go see the movie due to the media hoopla (all publicity is good publicity, as Madonna once said). Or will people be afraid of movie theaters and be less likely to go see the movie?

Mall shootings don't seem to make people afraid to go to the mall. I guess we have gotten like Israelis, so used to horrible violence that we don't see it as abnormal anymore. And we don't think it is worth doing anything about. I can imagine an Israeli shrugging. Buses blow up sometimes, and people explode standing next to you. Whatdya gonna do?  :P
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2012, 04:34:09 PM »
"When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it," Rick Warren, the mega-church pastor and inspirational author, observed in a Twitter update just hours after the shootings.

Pastor Warren needs to read his Bible: "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals." (Ecclesiastes 3:18)

It didn't take FOX long to display their hypocrisy either: " Fox News Commentator: Democrats Are ‘Being Foolish,’ Should Propose Gun Control Laws"

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/07/22/561641/fox-news-commentator-democrats-are-being-foolish-should-propose-gun-control-laws/
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2012, 07:14:52 PM »
I am a mean old curmudgeon, and I'm taking a risk by posting this

There was a shooting in a movie theater during the Midnight showing of Batman. So I'm seeing a lot of memorials and a statement banning "costumes" in Movie theaters. As expected, people are using the incident to make political hay rather than examining the issues involved.

And I don't seem to care, and I'm strangely angry that other seem to be all weepy about it. Yup there are nuts out there, however the victims...I didn't know them....I've never met them...I've never talked to them.

The Population of Denver is around 620,000...in the last week likely 150 Denverites died. No crocodile tears about that. Yet we are supposed to be ashamed if we don't glurge about "our thoughts and prayer going out to the families of the victims."  Stop buying into the pain addiction that media sells you and try to take care of the people around you. One kind word, one free ride, one helping of someone you see who is struggling with there packages is worth more than a thousand proclamations of faux sympathy.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline boobatuba

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2012, 08:59:25 PM »
I'm sitting here watching the "prayer vigil" for the victims. These people are singing songs to their god who allowed a crazy man to shoot DEAD a 6-year-old girl trying to run away. Amazing grace, my ass.

Sorry if this comes off heavy-handed, but fuck those people.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2012, 09:25:56 PM »
Stop buying into the pain addiction that media sells you and try to take care of the people around you. One kind word, one free ride, one helping of someone you see who is struggling with there packages is worth more than a thousand proclamations of faux sympathy.

Go to 90
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2012, 11:03:37 PM »
Another "loner" from a "nice family" goes slowly insane and noone notices while he decompensates to the point of booby trapping his home and arming himself for a midnight massacre...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2012, 07:28:34 AM »
People are spending all this time blaming guns.
Whatever happened to just blaming the crazy person?

With respect, Bunny, that's bollocks.  First of all, no one is blaming guns.  But guns are a factor.  Had he been armed with knives fewer people would have died or been injured and he would have been much easier to stop.

Second of all, all those alternatives you listed are more difficult to do that pull a trigger.  All those things require a much higher degree of technical skll than pulling a trigger.  All those things are more difficult to acquire than a gun and bullets. Except maybe the gas, but that also strikes me as much less effective.

I read a good Op-ed this weekend.  It pointed out that whenever we have some national tragedy we discuss policy.  FEMA screwed up?  Okay, let's talk about it.  A bridge collapsed?  Maybe we need to review how we are maintaining the the national infrastructure.

Someone murders 14 people with a gun?  "YOU'RE EXPLOITING THE DEATHS OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE TO PUSH YOUR AGENDA!" This is done by the NRA and their congressional representatives to shut down the discussion.  "Guns don't kill people" is usually the second assault they use.  After that it is, "We don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have," ignoring the fact that the whole point of the NRA is to weaken the laws or make sure they are not enforced or unenforceable.

I understand wanting and owning guns.  But lets not act as if everyone is responsible enough to own them.  Lets recongnize that a fully armed citizenry is not the best path.  Regulating guns and who can own them is not a bad thing.


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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2012, 08:49:16 AM »
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that this guy will probably always be referred to as the "Dark Knight" killer? I mean, if you're going to commit mass murder, that's about the coolest nickname you could ever hope for. This twisted idiot probably loves it, it makes him sound so bad-ass. I'd like to officially start the movement to ensure he is henceforth known as the "Comic Book Nerd*" killer. Spread the word!

edit to add:
* unless one of you can think of a more humiliating nickname, of course.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 08:52:03 AM by DumpsterFire »
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Offline Nick

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2012, 09:15:34 AM »
Small dick killer
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2012, 09:19:31 AM »
Stop buying into the pain addiction that media sells you and try to take care of the people around you. One kind word, one free ride, one helping of someone you see who is struggling with there packages is worth more than a thousand proclamations of faux sympathy.

Go to 90

?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2012, 09:28:08 AM »
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that this guy will probably always be referred to as the "Dark Knight" killer? I mean, if you're going to commit mass murder, that's about the coolest nickname you could ever hope for. This twisted idiot probably loves it, it makes him sound so bad-ass. I'd like to officially start the movement to ensure he is henceforth known as the "Comic Book Nerd*" killer. Spread the word!

edit to add:
* unless one of you can think of a more humiliating nickname, of course.

Comic book enthusiasts are already a pretty seriously marginalized element of society.  We shouldn't be doing anything to stigmatize them any further.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2012, 09:37:16 AM »
Who's the most annoying most embarrassing stereotypical nerd out there? And I mean pocket protector, goofy teeth, tucked in shirt and tie and incredibly socially awkward.

And there's your nickname.


I think it's a good idea, why is it journalist give cool names to serial killers? It should be embarrassing to be a serial killer. I think they should be humiliated and ridiculed, just so being one shouldn't be as glorious. Wasn't this the whole point behind Marilyn Manson's persona? How murderers get celebrity status. Marilyn Monroe + Charlie Manson. I think he kinda has a point with it. I mean, just look at how like celebrities, serial killers are immortalised, brought to the news and given fame. Kinda reminds me of what I was watching on The Onion last week, the news reporter challenging a serial killer to try harder before they gave him news coverage because they had seen it all before. Interesting how it's things like The Onion always seem to manage to put things into perspective.  ;) I think it was as Jon Stewart put it in an interview, I can't remember the quote, but it's pretty much how people turn to the satirists to get the truth out of the news.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2012, 11:18:56 AM »
Dude showed up in court, looks completely out of it. Something popped in his head big time.


Offline MadBunny

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »
I'm thinking the twinkie defense isn't gonna fly here.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2012, 01:28:10 PM »
Someone murders 14 people with a gun?  "YOU'RE EXPLOITING THE DEATHS OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE TO PUSH YOUR AGENDA!" This is done by the NRA and their congressional representatives to shut down the discussion.  "Guns don't kill people" is usually the second assault they use.  After that it is, "We don't need new laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have," ignoring the fact that the whole point of the NRA is to weaken the laws or make sure they are not enforced or unenforceable.

I understand wanting and owning guns.  But lets not act as if everyone is responsible enough to own them.  Lets recognize that a fully armed citizenry is not the best path.  Regulating guns and who can own them is not a bad thing.

You know the spiel

From my Governor;

Quote
TRENTON — In the wake of the shooting massacre in Aurora, Colo., Gov. Chris Christie today said New Jersey's gun laws are sufficient, but took a veiled swipe at Democrats who called for stronger controls.

"I think we have enough gun laws now," he said in a Statehouse news conference. "And it's time for us to enforce the gun laws that we have now, which I think we do fairly well here in this state.

I hate Chris Crisco.
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Offline Frank

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2012, 02:09:57 PM »
People are spending all this time blaming guns.
Whatever happened to just blaming the crazy person?

He could have...


Made a nitrite bomb out of fertilizer
flown a plane in to the building
crashed a cement mixer through the building
released a crate of malaria ridden mosquitoes into the building
locked all the doors and tossed flaming gas cans into the theater
tunneled under the theater and and built an underground lake full of alligators and dropped everybody into it through a giant trap door..
built bombs out of mace and fireworks



But where's the satisfaction? The weight of the gun in your hand? The noise as you pull the trigger? The godlike power as you unleash death? The methods you mention are just no fun at all. When it comes to racking up the body count guns are always the way to go. Easy to get and easy to use. Satisfaction guaranteed.
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