Author Topic: Colorado Movie Shooting  (Read 3162 times)

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Offline Dante

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #232 on: July 31, 2012, 12:09:50 PM »
If we're going to go to the extremes, then yes, it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "If we're going to go to the extremes".   Please elaborate

The situation you described, and I elaborated on (exhausting all non-violent means) is the extreme.

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Would you say that is the situation in Anaheim?  If not, how is that point determined or defined?  How do you know whether we are at that point?  What if the non-violent options are not exhausted but are met with further violence?

I didn't see your link, but would be interested in checking it out. Please and thanks.

As for your remaining questions:

1.) I do not know that there would be objective evidence that there is. However, a concensus among the citizens would be the logical place to start (as you alluded to). As well, there should be unambiguous evidence of existing laws and protected rights being violated by the police. You know, justification for an "Anaheim Spring".

2.) See number 1.

3.) I have the feeling that if non-violence is met with violence, it wouldn't be a long period of time that return violence would be justified.

Also, I would appreciate your solution to the "extreme" problem outlined above. What would you resort to if all non-violent means were exhausted? What would you have the people do if their non-violence is met with violence?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #233 on: July 31, 2012, 01:20:33 PM »
I didn't see your link, but would be interested in checking it out. Please and thanks.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23294.msg522541.html#msg522541


Also, I would appreciate your solution to the "extreme" problem outlined above. What would you resort to if all non-violent means were exhausted? What would you have the people do if their non-violence is met with violence?

The condition of "all non-violent means exhausted" is defined as violent rebellion being the only option left. 

I think what I'm more interested in is the large gray area between now and "absolutely everything else has been tried".  How long are we supposed to let the police get away with murder? 

The right wingers make much ado about the Occupy violence.  But I think the violence against them is much more abundant and far better documented.  This was not observed against the teabaggers when they protested.[1]  Would it deter police violence or would it escalate, if 5000 Occupy protesters exercised their first amendment rights and showed up with shotguns and hunting rifles?  I get the impression it would be taken as an excuse to call in the SWAT and national guard. 

 1. For some reason the police and establishment are absolutely terrified of left wing protest and not bothered at all by the right wing sort, despite the right wingers showing up with AR-15s.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #234 on: July 31, 2012, 01:42:55 PM »
I didn't see your link, but would be interested in checking it out. Please and thanks.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23294.msg522541.html#msg522541

Got it, thanks. Interesting, but not exactly surprising.

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I think what I'm more interested in is the large gray area between now and "absolutely everything else has been tried".  How long are we supposed to let the police get away with murder?

Untill we, as a society, determine it is, through our lawmakers and elected officials. While I realize that there are already laws on the books prohibiting homicide, special consideration is almost unilaterally given to the police at all times. Which is BS, IMO.

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Would it deter police violence or would it escalate, if 5000 Occupy protesters exercised their first 2nd amendment rights and showed up with shotguns and hunting rifles? 

It would be interesting to find out. And, depending on how it went down, it may not necessarily be a bad thing for violence to erupt, and put police violence in the forefront of national news stories.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #235 on: July 31, 2012, 01:57:06 PM »
Untill we, as a society, determine it is, through our lawmakers and elected officials.

But that is a rational answer, not the one the gun nuts' give.  I really need someone who thinks the first  second amendment is to prevent tyranny to answer this.

edit - corrected first --> second.  Thanks, D.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 02:39:19 PM by screwtape »
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Offline Dante

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #236 on: July 31, 2012, 02:25:52 PM »
Untill we, as a society, determine it is, through our lawmakers and elected officials.

But that is a rational answer, not the one the gun nuts' give.  I really need someone who thinks the first amendment is to prevent tyranny to answer this.

Firstly, it's the 2nd amendment, not the 1st. Get your story straight, Bub  ;)

Secondly, I'm a gun nut, although I try to be rational about it. So perhaps I should follow up on my thought.

When I say, we, as a society, I really do mean the people. If our representative gov't refuses to do the right thing and protect it's citizens, armed revolt (however large or small in scale) may be the only answer. How it's determined that it is the only remaining answer is determined by the populace being persecuted and abused.

Yes, I know the general populace would likely be out-trained and out-gunned, but again, what are the options? Submission?

Also, with the staggering number of weapons in the US, and the also staggering number of people possessing them, it's not unreasonable to think an armed revolt could succeed, in some fashion. And no way, no how, does every member of every branch of military (or police) side with the gov't (whichever gov't it may be). Serious armament would be appropriated for the cause, I have no doubt.

As a tangent, it would not at all surprise me to see the poor (read: minorities) in the US revolt against the perceived rich (read: white), all brought on by the deception and misuse of power of the super rich (read: Romney and friends).
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Nam

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #237 on: July 31, 2012, 03:43:24 PM »
Is there an audio book on Romney and friends? I'd like to skip the boring stuff.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #238 on: July 31, 2012, 08:38:07 PM »
Quote
For some reason the police and establishment are absolutely terrified of left wing protest and not bothered at all by the right wing sort, despite the right wingers showing up with AR-15s.

Almost every single youtube video I saw of the occupy protests showed protesters taunting police, yelling at them and getting in their faces about the issues. Then you would see the inevitable police brutality in retaliation for non cooperation. This is what is expected at a left wing rally.

On the other hand I hardly ever saw anyone at a teaparty rally get in a cops face. No trash cans through windows, no camping or squating, They got together for a demonstration and afterwards cleaned up and went home.

In other words, with or without the AR-15's there wasn't much disruption going on.

So yeah, based on the emotional intensity present in left wing demonstrations, if a bunch of people showed up with rifles at an #ows ralley...all hell would break loose.

I dream of a future where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #239 on: July 31, 2012, 08:42:14 PM »
Or perhaps the police know that the right-wing protesters support their own interests.  Those protesters don't have weapons so that they can overthrow tyrrany, but so that they can help enforce it.
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #240 on: July 31, 2012, 09:00:46 PM »
There are two in my driveway. They are paid for. I own them. They are mine. I have to have a license to use the roads. And I pay for that privilege with taxes. But the cars are privately held by me. I got titles to prove it.

Great.  And the government doesn't know you have them.  And you can drive them without licence plates, and do whatever you like.  Because you own them, they're 100% under your control and will.  Right?

Right. I can own as many cars as I want...without the government knowing about them and I can drive them all over my property if I choose. BUT if I want to drive on the public roads then certain requirements must be met.

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You own them, but not in every sense.  Ownership does not confer absolute rights over them.  Why should it for guns?

It doesn't. Why do you think it does, exactly?

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You bring up the 2nd Amendment.  Would requiring guns to be licensed and registered, for example, actually violate the 2nd Amendment?  That's a matter of interpretation, I suppose.  But if preventing people from bearing arms on an airplane is constiutional, then why not other restrictions and regulations?  Remember, you also already have "concealed carry" permits down there.  Isn't that an infringement?  Should absolutely everyone be legally allowed to conceal whatever weapon they like, from whatever age they can get one?

Why do you keep making rebuttals to arguments I am not making?

Walk me through the process...If I want to buy a gun tomorrow what do I need to do?

I ask because you make it seem like I can just stand outside on my porch and wait for the Ice cream gun truck to swing by.


Edit to fix quotes
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #241 on: July 31, 2012, 09:02:24 PM »
Or perhaps the police know that the right-wing protesters support their own interests.  Those protesters don't have weapons so that they can overthrow tyrrany, but so that they can help enforce it.

If you say so.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #242 on: July 31, 2012, 10:22:31 PM »
Right. I can own as many cars as I want...without the government knowing about them and I can drive them all over my property if I choose. BUT if I want to drive on the public roads then certain requirements must be met.

In other words, you don't own all usage of them.

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You own them, but not in every sense.  Ownership does not confer absolute rights over them.  Why should it for guns?

It doesn't. Why do you think it does, exactly?

I don't think it does.  I asked why should it, not why does it.

Why do you keep making rebuttals to arguments I am not making?

You mean, the argument that restricting gun-rights should be automatically opposed simply on the basis of it being a restriction of gun-rights?  That's one that you made.  You've made it several times.  You believe all rights should be expanded.  That means removing all restrictions, if possible.

Walk me through the process...If I want to buy a gun tomorrow what do I need to do?

I ask because you make it seem like I can just stand outside on my porch and wait for the Ice cream gun truck to swing by.

I am under the impression that you can go and purchase one at a store.
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #243 on: July 31, 2012, 10:24:38 PM »
Or perhaps the police know that the right-wing protesters support their own interests.  Those protesters don't have weapons so that they can overthrow tyrrany, but so that they can help enforce it.

If you say so.

It was a "perhaps"; I was openly speculating.  Anyway, right-wingers are typically happy with increased police powers.  For example, no Tea-Party or similar rally was held to protest the Patriot Act (or its offspring) was it?
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #244 on: July 31, 2012, 10:44:20 PM »
In other words, you don't own all usage of them.

Right.

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I asked why should it, not why does it.

Oh, well it shouldn't.

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You mean, the argument that restricting gun-rights should be automatically opposed simply on the basis of it being a restriction of gun-rights?  That's one that you made.  You've made it several times.  You believe all rights should be expanded.  That means removing all restrictions, if possible.

How did I make that argument? I know those aren't words I used, so If you are interpreting my words in a way that I did not intend then we need to sort this out.

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I am under the impression that you can go and purchase one at a store.

Just pick out a gun, hand over the cash, say thank you and walk on out the door?

Edit
Slipping on the quotes again.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 10:46:33 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #245 on: July 31, 2012, 11:02:14 PM »
How did I make that argument? I know those aren't words I used, so If you are interpreting my words in a way that I did not intend then we need to sort this out.

It's an argument you've both made and denounced, which is confusing at times.  You supported expanding gun-rights way back in this post:
Don't get me wrong...I'm all for adding personal liberty and amending the constitution to INCREASE our rights. I just don't think it's a good idea to start amending the constitution to REMOVE our rights.

The context was gun-rights, so it only makes sense to interpret "increase our rights" to include increasing gun-rights.  Or are they absolutely perfect as-is, with no room for addition or subtraction?

Just pick out a gun, hand over the cash, say thank you and walk on out the door?

I expect there's a criminal background check in some states.  By the way, doesn't a criminal background check violate the 2nd Amendment?
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #246 on: July 31, 2012, 11:15:07 PM »
I am not trying to argue an all or nothing point of view Azdgari....I'm all for taking precaution when it comes to who should have access to guns because they are so destructive. The ONLY thing I have said in absolute language was that I don't want the 2nd Amendment repealed. It would set a dangerous precedent and threaten other amendments.

What's the fucking problem?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #247 on: July 31, 2012, 11:21:02 PM »
The fucking problem is that the 2nd Amendment curtails your right to life.  Keeping it sets dangerous precedent, no less than removing it does.  Further, it is written in absolute language.  That was the point of my recent couple of "doesn't that violate it?" questions.  Creating a safe and sane society requires violating the 2nd Amendment.  You already do it.

Perhaps it should be changed?
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #248 on: July 31, 2012, 11:28:59 PM »
The fucking problem is that the 2nd Amendment curtails your right to life.

I simply don't see it that way.

Quote
Perhaps it should be changed?

Why would it need to be changed if we already violate it by requiring back-ground checks, ID and for certain situations a licence to carry. Hell, in some places you can't legally keep the ammo in the same room you do your firearms.

If you live on a military instillation you are required to keep your firearms in the armory under lock and key. If you want to go to the range you have to sign it out and sign it back in.

Is that something you would consider a fair compromise?

What would you recommend?

Edit
leaving out entire words now...
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #249 on: July 31, 2012, 11:37:49 PM »
I simply don't see it that way.

You might if someone with a legally-acquired firearm decided to shoot you, and you lay dying.  Not being shot certainly has its priviledges.  We can ignore the plight of those who have, and those who will be.

Why would it need to be changed if we already violate it by requiring back-ground checks, ID and for certain situations a licence to carry. Hell, in some places you can't legally keep the ammo in the same room you do your firearms.

If a law needs to be violated all of the time in order for society to function safely, then that law has no place on the books.  It is no longer a relevant law.  Keeping it on the books sends mixed messages.  It encourages people to think they should have the absolute rights stated in that law, when they don't, and shouldn't.  This is what actually happens.

If you live on a military instillation you are required to keep your firearms in the armory under lock and key. If you want to go to the range you have to sign it out and sign it back in.

Well that makes no sense at all, given your other comments on the topic.  Wouldn't the soldiers all be safer if they kept their weapons available for self-defense while off-duty?  Heavy weaponry aside, I mean.

Is that something you would consider a fair compromise?

All the measures you describe make a lot of sense to me.  But they don't make much sense in the context of keeping a weapon for self-defense.  It's really one or the other.  Either you institute the sorts of measures you describe, which neuter the gun's usefulness in emergency situations, or you don't, and the gun is a danger to the community while being available for emergency situations.

What would you recommend?

I would recommend scrapping the law that you apparently disregard so much when making laws in the first place.  It's very misleading.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:41:31 PM by Azdgari »
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #250 on: August 01, 2012, 12:08:59 AM »
You might if someone with a legally-acquired firearm decided to shoot you, and you lay dying.  Not being shot certainly has its priviledges.  We can ignore the plight of those who have, and those who will be.

I might. I have never been shot or shot at but I have had a couple of loaded guns pointed at my head and yet somehow I still maintain my current views.

Quote
If a law needs to be violated all of the time in order for society to function safely, then that law has no place on the books.  It is no longer a relevant law.  Keeping it on the books sends mixed messages.  It encourages people to think they should have the absolute rights stated in that law, when they don't, and shouldn't.  This is what actually happens.

Why do you consider taking precautions in an attempt to better ensure public safety a violation of the law?

Quote
Well that makes no sense at all, given your other comments on the topic.  Wouldn't the soldiers all be safer if they kept their weapons available for self-defense while off-duty?  Heavy weaponry aside, I mean.

They don't walk around with their weapons while they are on duty either. And yes, if they were allowed to carry their weapons with them then Major Nidal Hasan would not have been nearly as successful.

Quote
All the measures you describe make a lot of sense to me.  But they don't make much sense in the context of keeping a weapon for self-defense.  It's really one or the other.  Either you institute the sorts of measures you describe, which neuter the gun's usefulness in emergency situations, or you don't, and the gun is a danger to the community while being available for emergency situations.

Do you only ever deal in absolutes? It's difficult to have a discussion with you because it's always "either" "or"

Quote
I would recommend scrapping the law that you apparently disregard so much when making laws in the first place.  It's very misleading.

Well, I don't make laws. But I'm sure your talking about Congress and Americans in general here.

You know what's coming next don't you? How, specifically, do you propose we get the guns in circulation out of circulation and keep them out of the hands of criminals?

Is it some sort of sacrifice we will all have to make for awhile until the dust settles?

Because the reality of the situation is mass revolt if the law is scrapped and people are required to turn in their arms. I am not saying that this is WHY we shouldn't repeal the second amendment just that this is what will actually happen.

And those gun toten bible thumpin Christians will attack the 14th with new vigor in order to protect the life and liberty of the unborn since amendments can be redacted now.

I am sure there are other unforeseeable consequences but these will do for now.

If we are going to repeal the 2nd amendment we first have to change peoples minds about guns.

Edit for clarification
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 12:13:56 AM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #251 on: August 01, 2012, 12:15:16 AM »
Talk to you later, gotta get some sleep.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #252 on: August 01, 2012, 12:33:22 AM »
I might. I have never been shot or shot at but I have had a couple of loaded guns pointed at my head and yet somehow I still maintain my current views.

Conservatives are renowned for maintaining their views.

Why do you consider taking precautions in an attempt to better ensure public safety a violation of the law?

Because those precautions violate the law in question.  And because you already agreed that they do:
Why would it need to be changed if we already violate it by <snipped list of ways you agree that it's violated>

You were right.  The 2nd Amendment forbids any infringement of one's right to bear arms (aside from the whole militia stuff, which of course gets completly ignored).  Concealed carry permits - infringement.  Criminal background checks - infringement.  Etc.  Justified infringement?  Of course it is.  But it still violates the law.

They don't walk around with their weapons while they are on duty either. And yes, if they were allowed to carry their weapons with them then Major Nidal Hasan would not have been nearly as successful.

Why do you think the military has that restriction in place, then, if soldiers would be safer keeping their weapons on them at all times?  Has the command structure been infiltrated by bleeding-heart liberals?

Do you only ever deal in absolutes? It's difficult to have a discussion with you because it's always "either" "or"

There are a lot of either-or situations in life.  In this case, I laid out a "do or do not" option.  "Do X or do not do X" is a valid dichotomy.  For any X, you are always either doing X, or not doing X.  The rest was an explanation of the rammifications of those options.

That you are unwilling to reason your way through it is very conservative.

Well, I don't make laws. But I'm sure your talking about Congress and Americans in general here.

Yes, the "you" was obviously a general "you" rather than you, specifically.  If we were going by personal power to enact and dismantle laws, then there would be no point in discussing anything politcal at all, since neither of us have such power.

You know what's coming next don't you? How, specifically, do you propose we get the guns in circulation out of circulation and keep them out of the hands of criminals?

EDIT:  I had a really unreasonable complaint here, given the nature of what I said.  I accused you of dodging.  You're not.  What I'd said didn't really invite much of a response.  So, onward - it's time to actually address this, as it's a valid concern...

Is it some sort of sacrifice we will all have to make for awhile until the dust settles?

What sacrifice did you have in mind?  I could give an opinion or speculative answer, but I need to know what the sacrifice is supposed to achieve and what it might entail.  You've given me nothing to work with here.

Because the reality of the situation is mass revolt if the law is scrapped and people are required to turn in their arms. I am not saying that this is WHY we shouldn't repeal the second amendment just that this is what will actually happen.

The insanity and bloodlust of conservative gun-owners is a valid concern, as you say.  Their desire for the ability to take the lives of their countrymen is stronger than their desire for a country in which theatres don't randomly get shot-up by heavily-armed nutjobs.

That's a big problem.  How do you deal with the presense of such a conservative culture?

And those gun toten bible thumpin Christians will attack the 14th in order to protect the life and liberty of the unborn.

What liberty of the unborn?  The unborn are not people under the law.

I am sure there are other unforeseeable consequences but these will do for now.

What you've described is a problem with changing the constitution in any way whatsoever.  If people realize it can be changed, then they will be tempted to change it in other ways.  The root problem here is the specific ways in which Americans might want to change it - for example, as you've said, they might change it in order to more effectively punish and oppress women.  The problem is cultural.

If we are going to repeal the 2nd amendment we first have to change peoples minds about guns.

On this we are agreed.  But I doubt that any legislator would get that far without first changing peoples' minds about guns anyway.  These are not problems of law, but problems of culture and public violence.  Odd that they would be the main objection to a change in law.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 01:12:42 AM by Azdgari »
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #253 on: August 01, 2012, 07:33:44 AM »
Almost every single youtube video I saw of the occupy protests showed protesters taunting police, yelling at them and getting in their faces about the issues. Then you would see the inevitable police brutality in retaliation for non cooperation.

Heaven forbid the police act in a professional and even-handed manner. 

And I guess you missed the ones where people did exactly as the police asked them to do[1] and then got pepper sprayed anyway.

But that's not exactly the point I was trying to make.

 1. or passively resisted and didn't get in anyone's face
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #254 on: August 01, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »
Heaven forbid the police act in a professional and even-handed manner. 

And I guess you missed the ones where people did exactly as the police asked them to do[1] and then got pepper sprayed anyway.

But that's not exactly the point I was trying to make.
 1. or passively resisted and didn't get in anyone's face

Indeed, It's all about perception. I try to get as much information as I can find but ultimately I have to make up my mind with what is available to me. As to the ows movement vs. the tea party movement I am subject to the whims of the public media. I have never had the chance to attend any protest or march or rally. Or didn't have the desire.

In a town near where I live there was an ows demonstration. Pretty low key. Nothing bad happened. No violence. No vandalism. No police brutality. No rapes. No camping. No garbage or feces left in the streets.

No reports in the national media.

Think about it. 
I dream of a future where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #255 on: August 01, 2012, 10:34:52 PM »
Azdgari-

Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to reply to your last comment properly. I have a big day ahead of me tomorrow and had a long frustrating day today. Heading into Curtis Bay, MD to drop off a load at the ports and I have never done that before... apparently it's a complicated process.

Then I will be heading home for the weekend for drill. So, it may be a few days before I respond to you because I will be taking advantage of what little time I have to spend with my family.

I will leave you with this teaser though...based on your arguments I am beginning to suspect that you are an anarchist.

I am not passing judgment on that if you are but that's how your logic seems to be unfolding to me.

I'll explain later.
I dream of a future where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #256 on: August 02, 2012, 06:13:48 AM »
An anarchist who wants government to have coherent sets of laws?  That'll be a new one.

An anarchist who believes in a progressive taxation regime to fund government programs, so that they can benefit the governed.  Crazy.

Do you know what an "anarchist" is, Jay?  I eagerly await further development of this red herring.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 06:20:27 AM by Azdgari »
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #257 on: August 02, 2012, 10:14:56 PM »
My mind is near breaking at this point. What I am about to ask you is very important to me. Please answer honestly.

You have been using an argument against me that interprets the constitution and it's amendments very literally. You argue against the 2nd amendment because it infringes upon the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You do not consider a fetus as being alive so therefore support the 14th amendment. You argue that every one who commits a crime is a criminal whether or not they have been caught and punished for their crimes.

There are so many laws in force that it effectively renders EVERYONE a criminal because It is virtually impossible to obey every single law on the books. And ignorance of the law does not exempt you from the consequences of breaking it. Everyone who has ever drove their state controlled automobile has violated a law. Either by speeding or not coming to a complete stop or following too closely or not yielding the right of way.

By your reasoning we are ALL criminals.

My question is this, are we required to strictly enforce every law on the books or should we have the ability to use discretion?

You have suggested that we change the laws in situations where they no longer apply nor make sense but how should that change be decided? Should we use democracy?
I dream of a future where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #258 on: August 02, 2012, 10:27:16 PM »
A good first step would be to remove laws from the books that outlaw stupid things.[1]  That would at least remove some of the confusion for dealing with the rest.

As for those rest - details matter, and I wouldn't suggest a single type of action to deal with every law on the books.  I know that's not much of an answer, but without an example of what you're talking about at hand, it's hard to offer one of my own.  Keep in mind that violating civil laws does not automatically make one a criminal.  The laws we were discussing before are criminal, not civil.
 1. Example:  The prohibition, in Canada at least, against comic books depicting someone profiting from crime.  It's a ridiculously stupid law.  It is not enforced.  Why does it exist on the books?  Because people in our government are too fucking lazy to remove it, an action that could be completed in 20 minutes if they really wanted to.  That sort of thing is inexcusable, IMO.
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #259 on: August 02, 2012, 11:24:08 PM »
<snip>  Keep in mind that violating civil laws does not automatically make one a criminal.  The laws we were discussing before are criminal, not civil.

But violating road laws sometimes results in people getting killed and the driver can be convicted under criminal offense.

As for those rest - details matter, and I wouldn't suggest a single type of action to deal with every law on the books.  I know that's not much of an answer, but without an example of what you're talking about at ha nd,it's hard to offer one of my own.

Ashley Moser not only lost her six year old daughter in that theater, not only did she herself get shot three times...she also lost her 8 week old fetus as a result of the trauma her body was going through from the gunshot wounds but that does not constitute murder, in Colorado's and your view, because a fetus does not meet the requirements of life...however, in some states it still counts as a criminal offense.



Why is that do you suppose? Shouldn't laws that make sense be universal?

In other words, why should a comma patient be re guarded differently than a fetus since neither of them can survive on their own. They are basically just lumps of flesh.

In the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness should we adhere to a narrow interpretation of the laws or should we be allowed to use discretion?

How should that be decided?

Should we use democracy?
I dream of a future where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Colorado Movie Shooting
« Reply #260 on: August 02, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »
But violating road laws sometimes results in people getting killed and the driver can be convicted under criminal offense.

Well, yeah.

Ashley Moser not only lost her six year old daughter in that theater, not only did she herself get shot three times...she also lost her 8 week old fetus as a result of the trauma her body was going through from the gunshot wounds but that does not constitute murder, in Colorado's and your view, because a fetus does not meet the requirements of life...however, in some states it still counts as a criminal offense.

It's not a murder, sure.  And it's still a criminal offense.  There are lots of things that are not murder but that are nonetheless criminal offenses.

Why is that do you suppose? Shouldn't laws that make sense be universal?

Usually.  Occasionally a law in one area might not make sense in another for climatic or geographical reasons, but generally speaking, sure.

In other words, why should a comma patient be re guarded differently than a fetus since neither of them can survive on their own. They are basically just lumps of flesh.

I have arguments on this topic.  But if you're going to get into the specifics of my stance on abortion, then I suggest you open another thread, since it will otherwise take over this one.

In the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness should we adhere to a narrow interpretation of the laws or should we be allowed to use discretion?

Sure, let's use discretion.  That doesn't mean that we should disregard nonsensical wording in our laws.  It doesn't mean that the actual content of our laws is irrelevant.  Sensible interpretations are a lot easier to make and convince others of when you have sensible laws to interpret.

How should that be decided?

Should we use democracy?

How would one go about using democracy to decide how a law should be worded?  Democracy to decide the intent of laws, law experts to decide the wording based on that intent.  And simple observation to decide which laws are not working (see comic-book example above).
What is murder?  Murder is illegal killing.  Who makes it legal or illegal?  You?  How do you know those people didn't deserve death?