Author Topic: God must love Chick-fil-A  (Read 10587 times)

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Offline Nick

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2012, 04:37:58 PM »
Then what was Romney doing at both of those places???
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2012, 04:52:20 PM »
Then what was Romney doing at both of those places???

Begging for money from wealthy, healthy homos.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2012, 06:36:50 PM »
Her husband's smile looks really forced. Must be having to hear that nails-on-a-blackboard voice of hers all day and night. Can you imagine?  :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2012, 06:37:18 PM »
^Yeah, I read that earlier.

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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2012, 07:34:26 PM »
Her husband's smile looks really forced. Must be having to hear that nails-on-a-blackboard voice of hers all day and night. Can you imagine?  :o

hehe, only he would want to hang around her. Maybe he's regretting that decision.
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Nick

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2012, 10:23:55 PM »
Wasn't he suppose to be getting some on the side?  I can see why.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2012, 07:25:54 AM »
be as that may be, but all i've been saying is nobodsy knows the accurate statistic.

Yes, they do.  Do they know down to the person exactly how many people self identify as homosexual in the US?  Probably not.  Is it possible they know how many within ±5%?  Absolutely.  And accuracy is defined as a range.  For example, ±5% would be a measure of accuracy.

Statistics are used to determine facts about a population (of anything) by taking a sampling.  It saves the effort of observing every person, or part (in manufacturing).  And the accuracy of the facts is determined by the sample size.  When determining something like how many homos there are in a population, you have to make sure your sampling is not just big enough, but also random enough.  This is the hard part. Sampling too much in one area is just one way to get skewed results.  But professionally designed and executed surveys should avoid those pitfalls.

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2012, 08:32:54 AM »
I think the biggest issue with the accuracy of these statistics is that this is a subject about which folks may not be very honest. I guarantee you there are people (mostly men, I would guess) out there that will never admit they've had homosexual feelings and/or experiences, no matter how anonymous the survey is purported to be. The only question is, how much do these holdouts skew the results?
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2012, 09:02:48 AM »
I think the biggest issue with the accuracy of these statistics is that this is a subject about which folks may not be very honest. I guarantee you there are people (mostly men, I would guess) out there that will never admit they've had homosexual feelings and/or experiences, no matter how anonymous the survey is purported to be. The only question is, how much do these holdouts skew the results?

That is what i'm trying to say. I'm sorry Screwtape, but statistics are flawed, very flawed.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2012, 09:10:34 AM »
I think the biggest issue with the accuracy of these statistics is that this is a subject about which folks may not be very honest. I guarantee you there are people (mostly men, I would guess) out there that will never admit they've had homosexual feelings and/or experiences, no matter how anonymous the survey is purported to be. The only question is, how much do these holdouts skew the results?

Then we are talking about two different ideas of accuracy.  I am talking about who self identifies and the statistical confidence of that.  From that perspective, those in denial do not skew the results at all.  They do not self identify. 

You are talking about their deepest, most hidden desires.  Does that really matter for the purposes of the survey?  I don't know.  I'd say, probably not.  Those who deny homo feelings are not invested in gay marriage, do not have to worry about gay rights, etc and so are not part of the demographic being quantified.

But I do agree that sexuality is not black and white.  I think it is a sliding scale.

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Offline jsmacks

Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2012, 07:43:03 PM »
I really like their food but I may have to rethink going there.

As a fast food chain, their level of quality and consistency is superb, but I definitely don't agree with their openly anti gay views. Just seems bad for business IMO, but they thrive in conservative states so I doubt their statements will have little impact in those states but I can see them having some problems expanding north and rightly so. I don't see a problem with them personally being Christian conservatives but being anti gay is just uncool.

Offline Nam

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2012, 07:48:52 PM »
Florida is a moderate state, or "purple" as some refer to it politically. They may have problems here. It's mainly red on top but in the middle and in the south (especially Key West), it's a pretty dark purple.

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2012, 10:02:57 PM »
Then we are talking about two different ideas of accuracy.  I am talking about who self identifies and the statistical confidence of that.  From that perspective, those in denial do not skew the results at all.  They do not self identify. 

You are talking about their deepest, most hidden desires.  Does that really matter for the purposes of the survey?  I don't know.  I'd say, probably not.  Those who deny homo feelings are not invested in gay marriage, do not have to worry about gay rights, etc and so are not part of the demographic being quantified.

But I do agree that sexuality is not black and white.  I think it is a sliding scale.

Well, if we are only considering those who self-identify as homosexual then my point is moot. However, if we are trying to determine a true and accurate representation of the actual percentage of the populace that is homosexual, we must consider the variable of people who would otherwise be considered homosexual refusing to classify themselves as such. I severely doubt that the Ted Haggards or Larry Craigs of the world would ever own up to their true desires. So the question is, how many people fall into this category[1]? Is it even a statistically significant number?

I suggest that it is a significant number, and would (admittedly unscientifically) guess that whatever the number of self-identifying homosexuals is, there is perhaps half again as many unwilling to out themselves. Maybe more.

The bottom line is that we will never really know the true percentage of gays out there as long as homosexuality remains so persecuted and stigmatized in our society.
 1. The criteria for determining what could be considered "homosexual" is very subjective, as well. Is it fair to classify someone as gay or even bi if they are turned on by the same sex, but have never acted upon it? What about someone who is primarily or solely turned on by the same sex but chooses to live asexually? Definitely another gray area.
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2012, 11:21:00 PM »
The bottom line is that we will never really know the true percentage of gays out there as long as homosexuality remains so persecuted and stigmatized in our society.

Thank you, that's all i was trying to say!
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2012, 12:22:15 AM »
I really like their food but I may have to rethink going there.

As a fast food chain, their level of quality and consistency is superb, but I definitely don't agree with their openly anti gay views. Just seems bad for business IMO, but they thrive in conservative states so I doubt their statements will have little impact in those states but I can see them having some problems expanding north and rightly so. I don't see a problem with them personally being Christian conservatives but being anti gay is just uncool.

I don't think religious affiliation has any place in business unless the product happens to be a religious product of some kind & even then I would think anyone would have a right to purchase that product.
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Offline jetson

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2012, 06:46:57 AM »
The bottom line is that we will never really know the true percentage of gays out there as long as homosexuality remains so persecuted and stigmatized in our society.

You can say the same about atheists, sadly.

Offline screwtape

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2012, 07:53:11 AM »
However, if we are trying to determine a true and accurate representation of the actual percentage of the populace that is homosexual, we must consider the variable of people who would otherwise be considered homosexual refusing to classify themselves as such.

You touched on the problem with this in your footnote.  Homosexual is a lable that is convenient and useful in some instances, but it is not an objective quality.  Because of that, I don't think you can speculate on how many "real" homosexist but aren't being counted.  The only "actual" homosexuals that matter are the ones who admit it.  As I said, the ones who don't are not part of the group.

That is not a problem with statistics.  That is a problem with psychology.


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Offline Azdgari

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2012, 07:58:57 AM »
And as Jetson said, the same is true of atheists.  If you hide it, you're effectively a theist.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2012, 01:42:21 PM »
Well, it seems to me that there are quite a few companies out there who recognize the the LGBT population is significant enough to be a market they want to court. 

One of my fb friends posted this today: 


And here is the article to go with it.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/01/amtrak-ride-with-pride-campaign_n_1728817.html#slide=1080228 

At the bottom of the article they have a bunch of videos of LGBT ads, and although I'd never seen any of them air on tv (some of them were banned) they were really interesting to watch.  My favorites included:







I liked the ads.  Not the products. 

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2012, 02:43:01 PM »
I love those ads. I've seen the Renault ad several times on tv. Very cute.
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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »
Well, it seems to me that there are quite a few companies out there who recognize the the LGBT population is significant enough to be a market they want to court...

Both my 81 year old mom and I love ads that show sexual diversity, and smile at them all. Why? Because we have family and friends who are lgbt. The pro-gay market is far larger than just those who are, themselves, lgbt.
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Offline Garja

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #109 on: August 01, 2012, 02:45:22 PM »
Those are awesome, especially the Doritos one, but the others are cool in a more "touching" way.
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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #110 on: August 01, 2012, 10:40:10 PM »
The only "actual" homosexuals that matter are the ones who admit it.  As I said, the ones who don't are not part of the group.

I understand and agree somewhat with where you are coming from on this, but I think it is short sighted to write off the entire "closeted" portion of the gay populace. There are plenty of people out there who know they are gay, but due to various outside pressures or influences are unwilling or reasonably unable to identify themselves as such. So while these folks are not necessarily "part of the group", they certainly can and do exercise their influence by voting for/against candidates and measures that support/oppose their views, by donating time or money to gay-friendly organizations, and by being very particular about where they might purchase a chicken sandwich.

Jetson brings up a great point with the parallels to atheism. I live in the buckle of the bible belt. As vocal and expressive with my views as I am on this forum, I don't walk around here with my atheism on my sleeve. If someone tells me to have a "blessed day," instead of ripping them a new one, I just say, "Thanks, same to you." As a relatively recent convert to atheism, perhaps this is a reflex that will change in time, but for now its just a whole lot easier to go along with it, at least in such situations where it is relatively harmless to do so. So I guess I'm a "closeted atheist," but that does not mean that I cannot exercise any influence.
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Offline jetson

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #111 on: August 02, 2012, 07:19:02 AM »
Our local Chik-Fil-A was completely jam packed with traffic yesterday evening.  On one side, it was a disgusting site to behold, thinking that perhaps all of those people were there to support bigotry and homophobia.  But then I started thinking that there may have been people there just supporting free speech - you know, the kind of free speech that we hold so dearly, that allows the owner of a business to openly and actively speak against and fund efforts to deny human rights.

I decided that most were there to support homophobia and bigotry.  Fuck those Christians.  If they can't stand strong against homophobia and same-sex marriage, then they don't deserve any respect at all for their religion.

Offline screwtape

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #112 on: August 02, 2012, 08:11:01 AM »
but I think it is short sighted to write off the entire "closeted" portion of the gay populace.

I don't think I am writing them off and I didn't think we were talking about closeted individuals. 

...but due to various outside pressures or influences are unwilling or reasonably unable to identify themselves as such.

I'm confused.  Are you talking about people who are unwilling to publicly admit to being gay or people who won't even say it on a confidential survey?  I thought it was the latter we were talking about.

So while these folks are not necessarily "part of the group", they certainly can and do exercise their influence by voting for/against candidates and measures that support/oppose their views, by donating time or money to gay-friendly organizations, and by being very particular about where they might purchase a chicken sandwich.

I think we're off track here.  My involvement in this thread has been to help Tim understand a couple of things.  First, his outrage with Frank was misplaced.  Second, to give him some background on statistics so he is aware of things like accuracy. 

My point about whom to count was to illustrate the reliability of statistics.  It is possible to know the size of a subcategory of a population by sampling/ surveying, if it is done correctly.  And the definition of that subcategory all depends on why you are counting.  If the goal is to understand a demographic - homosexual men and women - for political messaging, then the ones who are in denial and do not think of themselves as gay are not your target audience and should not be counted.  While they may sometimes engage in homosexual acts, they are not members of the gay community and not part of this demographic.   

Closet gays - those who think of them selves as gay and may secretly "indulge" but publicly portray themselves as straight - may be part of that demographic and are not being "written off" - at least, not by me.  They would have an opportunity to be privately and confidentially counted.  If they chose to falsely answer, they are writing themselves off and are effectively excluding themselves from the community.



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Offline Kimberly

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #113 on: August 02, 2012, 08:20:47 AM »
Our local Chik-Fil-A was completely jam packed with traffic yesterday evening.  On one side, it was a disgusting site to behold, thinking that perhaps all of those people were there to support bigotry and homophobia.  But then I started thinking that there may have been people there just supporting free speech - you know, the kind of free speech that we hold so dearly, that allows the owner of a business to openly and actively speak against and fund efforts to deny human rights.

I felt disgusted as well. IMO it's not a matter of free speech. I was debating one of my friends all night last night and this was something he couldn't understand. I'm sure some people out there are all up in arms over what the CEO said. I'm not. You would have to be living under a rock to not know Chick-fil-A was a religious company with Christian values. What really shocked me was following the money trail of their donations. That was what I found so appalling. Yes the CEO's speech is what brought my attention to the anti-gay agendas but the root of my concern wasn't the speech itself. It amazes me how the masses don't either know this story or don't believe it to be true.

My friend last night told me that the tax document from CFA's charity was a fraud. Even after I showed him where the IRS confirms that the source of the document was legitimate. He said it was illegal for those records to be released. When I showed him where the IRS explains the Freedom of Information Act he thought that too was a lie. Because you can't believe anything you see on the internet. It has to be on a national news outlet. Because the reporters are who we should trust and not the IRS or Guidestar as a legitimate source of information.

::facepalm::

These people are seriously deluded.

I decided that most were there to support homophobia and bigotry.  Fuck those Christians.  If they can't stand strong against homophobia and same-sex marriage, then they don't deserve any respect at all for their religion.

I'm with you on this. My friend decided to "pull the race card"... Ya know, "What do you expect? It took 200 years to end slavery! Why are these gays rushing things?"

That was when I lost faith in humanity. It was almost funny last night, but ya know I could cry it's so sad.
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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #114 on: August 02, 2012, 09:04:27 AM »
I'm confused.  Are you talking about people who are unwilling to publicly admit to being gay or people who won't even say it on a confidential survey?  I thought it was the latter we were talking about.

I am saying that it is likely that both of the above statements are true for some people.

If the goal is to understand a demographic - homosexual men and women - for political messaging, then the ones who are in denial and do not think of themselves as gay are not your target audience and should not be counted.  While they may sometimes engage in homosexual acts, they are not members of the gay community and not part of this demographic.   

I agree with this statement.

Closet gays - those who think of them selves as gay and may secretly "indulge" but publicly portray themselves as straight - may be part of that demographic and are not being "written off" - at least, not by me.  They would have an opportunity to be privately and confidentially counted.  If they chose to falsely answer, they are writing themselves off and are effectively excluding themselves from the community.

Again, you bring up some very good points, and for purposes of demographic marketing you are mostly correct, although I would argue that gay-targeted marketing would most likely appeal to both in and out-of-closet gays.

But demographics, shmemographics! The only thing I'm trying to address is that there are various groups loudly proclaiming a specific percentage (the numbers skew high or low, usually depending on the political persuasion of the group) of the population is gay, when it seems impossible to determine a reliable number given today's societal climate. Maybe I'm just uber paranoid, but if I was desperate to keep a secret that I feared would ruin my life if known, I would never own up to it. Even in a "private and confidential" survey. And I'm not even gay, but I can imagine how utterly difficult it must be to live with that pressure.

But regardless of what the actual numbers might be, gays should have equal rights, including the right to marry, simply because it is the right thing to do. It shouldn't matter that they have a strong or weak voting block, or a powerful presence in Washington, or whatever (and I don't mean to imply that you disagree, Tape). No one should have to live in fear because of who they love.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: God must love Chick-fil-A
« Reply #115 on: August 02, 2012, 10:58:08 AM »
Yet another fb post from this morning.