I'm filling the salad bowl...

[LoriPinkAngel]

Why can't Creation & Evolution both be right?  I was raised as a Christian, am not completely a disbeliever.  I am a single mom, a faithful long distance girlfriend, a Registered Nurse and a Veteran of the Gulf War.  I have many very different moods and views which would seem to conflict but somehow don't.  I feel the bible as we know is tragically flawed.  Jesus Christ came to bring the truth and was murdered for it and the complete truth has not been revealed to this day.  I study the bible for clues, and also the books that were banned from the bible.  I also am looking into teachings that pre-date christianity -- tao te ching, buddhism, hindu writings, jewish & islamic writings and whatever else I come across.  I like to compare the different translations of the different writings as well as compare them in different languages.  I feel that somehow parts of all of them fit together to form the truth.  All the major religions serve a purpose and should be able to coexist. - The whole is greater that the sum of it's parts. -  Like a salad 

[kin hell]

G'day Lori

just imagine that there is no god or gods, then religions are a human invention.

Like most?all inventions they fill a perceived need. That need is a real, desperate and inevitable component of the human condition.

The human condition I am speaking of is self awareness and its resultant perception of inevitable death to the self.

For all the supposed good of religion, if there is no god/s (and we have no apparent evidence of any) then the invention is a placebo at best and a ghastly tragic distortion of reality that allows horrors to be enacted in the names of gods.

and salad?

good metaphor for religion

assemble various ingredients
toss



lettuce is predominately water
tomato is so ambiguously misunderstood as to be fruit to some and vegetable to others
onion, the great deceiver  makes you weep and as you delve deeper and deeper peeling away the outer layers for the truth, what do you find, that it was all layers to the end, and no core truth

and the whole mix is personally flavoured with personal interpretation spices and condiments so as to be palatable (spag)

and still it needs snake oil as lubricant so as not to stick in ones craw.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

@LoriPinkAngel

I think your approach to this matter is commendable.  No matter where it takes you, an open mind is always worth employing.    I followed a path much like yours, and it led me to atheism, but it took a very long time and much thrashing about to get there.  Where ever this takes you, retain the opened mind.  Good luck

[Zankuu]

Why can't Creation & Evolution both be right?

By creation do you mean a metaphorical take on Genesis, or do you mean the Creationism (Intelligent Design) that is attempting to be pushed into school classrooms in the US?

[Quesi]

Welcome to the forum Lori.  I really look forward to learning more about you and your beliefs.  I think that you will find the discussions here stimulating and thought provoking. 

Warning – some of the forum members bite. 

You know, I think that when you study the religions of the world, you uncover a set of “universal truths.”  Most of them have to do with human nature, and the roles of individuals within their families and their societies.   Most religions advocate for social norms that create strong communities in which people are taught to respect their family members, their neighbors, strangers and travelers, etc.  Nearly all religions discourage selfish individual behavior that harms the larger community, such as stealing or killing. 

And at the root of each religion is an attempt to explain the BIG QUESTIONS.  Who are we?  How did we come to be who we are?  How did this land on which we live come to exist?  Why do bad things happen?  What happens when we die?

Each religion offers wildly varying explanations for each of the big questions.  Every religion begins with a creation story.   There are various different themes within the creation stories.  Often there is a deity or deities, creating the first human beings.    Other times, there is a sort of egg or “birth” that starts it all.  Each of these stories was created during a time that human beings believed that we lived on a flat piece of land, underneath a huge sky that contained a moon and a sun that appeared small enough to hold in their arms, and stars tiny enough to grasp between two fingers.  Our ancestors had no idea that we lived on a globe when they created their creation stories.  They did not understand that bacteria caused illnesses, or that droughts and floods were caused by weather patterns rather than displeased deities. 

Some religions were designed to adapt well to increasing scientific knowledge, while others, not so much.  A few years ago, the Dali Lama said  “If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change.”  Other religions have been less able to adapt to increasing scientific discovery,   Galileo was tried for heresy when he published his observations that the earth orbited the sun, rather than the other way around.  Darwin’s observations concerning natural selection were met with legal battles as well.  The Big Bang is considered among the ultimate threats to “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” 

Much of what is contained in the various world religions has become obsolete.  The various creation stories certainly have.  In my subjective opinion, the teachings about love and compassion and charity contained in the various religions are valid teachings, but they can and do exist in the absence of religion. 

So may I ask?  Why do you need any religion to fill your salad bowl?  Can't the values that you embrace exist outside of a given set of scriptures?  Why would your chosen deity, (as opposed to all of the deities that have existed in the beliefs of individuals and communities throughout the history of humanity) decide to micromanage something as complex as evolution?   If He were responsible for the Big Bang, why didn't the scriptures start out with a more accurate description?

[One Above All]

Welcome to the forum.

[Nick]

When your mind just won't accept the 7 day story you try to justify it by wrapping it around evolution.  I did the same thing before my eyes were completely opened.

[Seppuku]

Welcome the forums!

Why can't Creation & Evolution both be right?  I was raised as a Christian, am not completely a disbeliever.  I am a single mom, a faithful long distance girlfriend, a Registered Nurse and a Veteran of the Gulf War.  I have many very different moods and views which would seem to conflict but somehow don't.  I feel the bible as we know is tragically flawed.  Jesus Christ came to bring the truth and was murdered for it and the complete truth has not been revealed to this day.  I study the bible for clues, and also the books that were banned from the bible.  I also am looking into teachings that pre-date christianity -- tao te ching, buddhism, hindu writings, jewish & islamic writings and whatever else I come across.  I like to compare the different translations of the different writings as well as compare them in different languages.  I feel that somehow parts of all of them fit together to form the truth.  All the major religions serve a purpose and should be able to coexist. - The whole is greater that the sum of it's parts. -  Like a salad 

This sounds to be quite interesting and look forward to hearing more in future discussions. Okay, I am a complete non-believer, but it's an interesting concept all the same. The bible is certainly flawed and it's quite possible that you're right that whatever this man, Jesus, said 2,000 years a go could be distorted. In fact, it seems pretty likely, you're looking at an oral culture of different storytellers passing the stories for a number of years before any of it is written down. I think it's crazy to think that they could be no errors. Add issues such as information lost in translation and as you highlight yourself, any missing pieces. Now of course whether or not he's the son of a deity (or said deity in human form) is a different matter, my stance in that respect, as an atheist, should be obvious.

Other religions are interesting, but obviously this forum is pretty biased to Christianity and I would find it educational if we had a Hindu come in or a Sikh, maybe a Jainist or two. Also, I am philosophical Buddhist, whilst I don't really appreciate Buddhism on a religious level, but it makes plenty of sense to me in a more philosophical - way of life - level. There's plenty of things in Buddhism that share similarities to humanism (but enough differences to separate the two), which is probably why as far as religion goes, Buddhism gets the least slack from the atheist community. But still, it does get scrutinised.

All the major religions serve a purpose and should be able to coexist. - The whole is greater that the sum of it's parts. -  Like a salad

This. Oh and through irreligion in there are well. Whilst we're merciless when it comes to debate on these forums, I don't seek to eradicate religion. It would be cool if people did agree with me, but that's not going to happen. If the world's religions plus the non-religious could fully coexist without each other's beliefs or even non-beliefs harming one and another then we'd definitely be living in a much better place.



Anyway, I hope you'll enjoying engaging with the forum and hopefully there will be discussions/debates that interest you. Whilst debate can get heated and you need thick skin around here (you're a veteran and a single mum, so I'm sure you're made of tougher stuff anyway) it's rare for anything to actually get personal. Generally my best advice here is to be straight forward and honest as you can and do your best to respect the forum's rules. We all make slip ups time-to-time, so nobody expects you to be perfect.

[Kimberly]

Welcome to the forum LoriPinkAngel.

At one time I shared a similar worldview you described. For me it was a long journey with lots of questions and occasionally no answers. I'm glad to see you searching for your own answers. I think that is the best any of us can do. I hope you enjoy your stay here. 

[LoriPinkAngel]

G'day Lori

just imagine that there is no god or gods, then religions are a human invention.

You have caused the song "Imagine" by John Lennon to stick in my head all day. --

  Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try      No hell below us Above us only sky
  Imagine all the people    Living for today...    Imagine there's no countries     It isn't hard to do 
  Nothing to kill or die for     And no religion too       Imagine all the people   Living life in peace...
  You may say I'm a dreamer     But I'm not the only one       I hope someday you'll join us
  And the world will live as one
  Imagine no possessions     I wonder if you can    No need for greed or hunger Or brotherhood of man
  Imagine all the people Sharing all the world...
  You may say I'm a dreamer     But I'm not the only one       I hope someday you'll join us
  And the world will live as one

[JeffPT]

Welcome LoriPinkAngel.  I hope you find your stay in the forums enjoyable.  I'll try to be nice, but I have some issues with your post. 

Why can't Creation & Evolution both be right?

I assume you are speaking about the biblical 'creation' story.  If that is the case, then there is no way they can both be true, because if evolution is true, there was no Adam and Eve.  Which means there was no fall, no original sin, none of that.  If you are not speaking about the biblical creation story, then to what are you referring to, and what evidence can you present for it? 

I was raised as a Christian, am not completely a disbeliever.  I am a single mom, a faithful long distance girlfriend, a Registered Nurse and a Veteran of the Gulf War.

Sounds like you have a full plate.  I was never in the military but my father was a Sergeant in the Marines.  I grew up in a manner reflective of that.

I have many very different moods and views which would seem to conflict but somehow don't. 

My guess is that you lead with your emotions and drag your rational mind along for the ride.  My wife does the same thing, and sometimes I do to, but I try hard not to.  I suggest trying to put your logical mind in the driver seat for a while and pushing your emotions to the back.  Really THINK about your views and see if they stand that test.  I bet they don't. 

I feel the bible as we know is tragically flawed. 

How much do you know about the bible? 

Jesus Christ came to bring the truth and was murdered for it and the complete truth has not been revealed to this day.

Actually, he was supposedly murdered because he was seen as a possible threat to the Romans who thought he might start a revolt.  It's actually very possible that he wasn't who he said he was (in John anyway, in Mark, he never says anything about being the son of God), and that he was killed because the Romans did that sort of thing all the time. 

I study the bible for clues, and also the books that were banned from the bible. 

You sound like a gnostic. If you don't know, the gnostics were a sect of Christians back in the days when Christianity (in all it's various forms) was in its infancy.  They believed (much like you seem to) that the words of Jesus held the secret to get to heaven, and if you could decipher what he said, you could leave this world and enter the divine.  Many gnostics believed this world that we inhabit was created by an evil deity, and thus it means nothing and shouldn't be thought of as 'good' at all.  They were considered heretics in the long run, but so were all the other sects that died off. 

What is your favorite non-cannonical gospel?  I like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. 

I also am looking into teachings that pre-date christianity -- tao te ching, buddhism, hindu writings, jewish & islamic writings and whatever else I come across.

What specifically are you looking for? It sounds interesting. 

I feel that somehow parts of all of them fit together to form the truth. 

I think differently.  I think that all religions are simply incorrect versions of reality, although I do like some more than others.  But again, this is leading with your emotions first...  Just look how you wrote it... "I feel..."  Your feelings have no bearing on whether or not there actually are parts of all of them that fit together to form the truth.  They really might just be all wrong.  You should seriously consider that as well. 

All the major religions serve a purpose and should be able to coexist. - The whole is greater that the sum of it's parts. -  Like a salad 

'Should' is an optimistic word, but Islam and Christianity simply can not co-exist when there are good portions of both holy books devoted to commanding the death of people who believe in different religions.  The world as it is right now is in such a mess specifically because of religion.  They are dangerous and we would be better off without them.  (My personal opinion).

I like salad though.  With the right dressing of course. 
 

[Graybeard]

Why can't Creation & Evolution both be right?  I was raised as a Christian, am not completely a disbeliever.

Creation states that God created the Earth (and universe) and everything on it, as we presently see it. This is not so.

Creation-Lite states that God Created the Earth (and universe) and then placed some form of life on Earth and from that, all the species arose through Evolution. This then states that all God did was to place one bacteria on earth and then cleared off. This seems rather pathetic for such a being.

Poofing things into existence is the domain of fairy tales. We can dismiss it.

I feel the bible as we know is tragically flawed.  Jesus Christ came to bring the truth and was murdered for it and the complete truth has not been revealed to this day.

The problem here is that this is only “feelings” Every now and again, some person has the feeling that he can climb into the lions’ den at the local zoo and lie down with them. In important questions like, "Why are there thunderstorms or why do things fall downwards on Earth" feelings are not enough. Religions were created by people who had "feelings" that this is what happened. Genesis is someone's feelings.

There is a lot of clues and evidence to suggest that there never was a Jesus Christ but more that he was like “Robin Hood”; a folk-figure created by people and story tellers so as to pass on folk wisdom or voice the objections of dissenters.

You mention “the truth”… I don’t understand this, what are you saying? What is this “truth”?

My feeling is that you do not know. It is just like some bad film where the hero tries to find the treasure; he eventually finds someone who he thinks knows but that person is dying; the hero bends over him:
“Where’s the treasure?”
“It’s… it’s… it’s east of the… Uhhh!” and he dies.

It gives the idea that there is a treasure but, of course, there is no proof there is and the dead person isn’t ever going to come back or contact him through a Ouija board.

I also am looking into teachings that pre-date christianity -- tao te ching, buddhism, hindu writings, jewish & islamic writings and whatever else I come across.

And doubtless you are seeing similarities. This is the general “folk-wisdom” that gets passed along, most of them you will note are bound up with quite impossible events and magic. This escapism has always been popular in fairy tales, hasn’t it?

I feel that somehow parts of all of them fit together to form the truth.  All the major religions serve a purpose and should be able to coexist. - The whole is greater that the sum of it's parts. -  Like a salad 

The salad analogy is particularly good. It goes along with “Salad-bar Christian” – someone who picks and chooses which parts of the Bible to accept and which to reject. This then gives the “Salad-bar Christian” the idea that God agrees with them and they are correct. This means that the “Salad-bar Christian” has created a god and is worshipping Him – or, to put it another way, the “Salad-bar Christian” is worshipping the person who said the things that they agree with: they are worshipping themselves. This is known as “Self-Projection as God” or SPAG.

[Traveler]

Hello and welcome to our salad bar!

I have to say, this is probably the most interesting intro conversation I've ever seen.

[LoriPinkAngel]

Hello and welcome to our salad bar!

I have to say, this is probably the most interesting intro conversation I've ever seen.

Thank you...  I see this is going to be one interesting forum.  However I am unlike alot of sterotypical Christians.  Do not mistake my gentle soul for weakness.  To paraphrase Betty White -- "why do people always say get some balls?  Balls are weak and sensitive, vaginas take a pounding..." I like to stay civil but when someone acts like a prick toward me I may react like a sarcastic bitch.  I have heard some rational arguments against the existence of God but it seems that alot of the posters here strive to ridicule anyone who doesn't share their belief (or disbelief). So any of the peaceful types in here please give me a nudge if I get too snarky in defending myself.  At least my censor works much better when typing than when speaking.  I am really just searching for inner peace.  I figure the sages of the past who's brains weren't polluted by hormones, chemicals and mass media may just know something if you can separate what they said from what somebody else decided to add.  I use the terms "feel and think" in reference to things which I do not know as fact.  The writings that I research have been used for hundreds, sometimes thousands of years, they may not be perfect but I am not pulling the information out of my ass.  So if anyone disagrees with my views- fine, I am glad to learn from other peoples views but if you just want to pick at how I express myself please feel free to kiss my aforementioned ass.

[Graybeard]

I use the terms "feel and think" in reference to things which I do not know as fact.

I think most of us do. That's OK as long as you don't think that there is any truth in them just because of feelings. Or that things that are "old" must have some truth behind them.

In the 19th century, boys at certain schools in England were handed out cigars from age 11 to keep them safe from tuberculosis... Everyone felt that this old idea was a good one... at the time.

Anyway, this is not the place for a debate, why not post your ideas into a thread on the main board?

[Kimberly]

Hello and welcome to our salad bar!

I have to say, this is probably the most interesting intro conversation I've ever seen.

So any of the peaceful types in here please give me a nudge if I get too snarky in defending myself.

You are always welcome to seek out the assistance of a Forum Guide. I'm one but there are a few others too. We can help you out, just PM one of us if you are feeling the need for guidance.

Here's some clickies for the others:

Gnu Ordure
Zankuu
Traveler

[LoriPinkAngel]

In the 19th century, boys at certain schools in England were handed out cigars from age 11 to keep them safe from tuberculosis... Everyone felt that this old idea was a good one... at the time.

Maybe the lit cigars kept the people with TB far enough away to not cough on them... 

[LoriPinkAngel]

So any of the peaceful types in here please give me a nudge if I get too snarky in defending myself.

You are always welcome to seek out the assistance of a Forum Guide. I'm one but there are a few others too. We can help you out, just PM one of us if you are feeling the need for guidance.

Gnu Ordure
Zankuu
Traveler

I just want someone to give me the proverbial "kick under the table" if I am ever as hostile, petty, arrogant and just plain mean-spirited as some forum members are when it comes to picking apart every aspect of other members posts as if they are trying to demonstrate how brilliant they are by reviling every opinion they disagree with when actually they are just revealing themselves to be douchebags.  I prefer to be peaceful if possible but I do tend to let my claws out when I feel attacked or that someone else is being unfairly attacked.

[pianodwarf]

Hi, LoriPinkAngel, welcome to WWGHA.  My use of boldface green text indicates that I am speaking as a moderator, not as a participant in the thread.

You appear to be having some difficulty using the quoting function.  May I suggest that you use the test area to experiment a bit with its function so you'll be able to quote yourself and others properly?  That forum is found here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html

Use of the "Preview" button before submitting a post will also help to ensure that your quoting appears properly.  I hope this is helpful.

[Kimberly]

I just want someone to give me the proverbial "kick under the table" if I am ever as hostile, petty, arrogant and just plain mean-spirited as some forum members are when it comes to picking apart every aspect of other members posts as if they are trying to demonstrate how brilliant they are by reviling every opinion they disagree with when actually they are just revealing themselves to be douchebags.  I prefer to be peaceful if possible but I do tend to let my claws out when I feel attacked or that someone else is being unfairly attacked.

Ah well... you can always not hit reply  .
I have found that when my feathers are too ruffled it's best to not reply in that moment. I will come back to it later if I feel like I can talk to that person civilly but if they have made it impossible to speak to them like an adult I just leave the conversation. You're welcome to try your own methods but I don't think anyone will be able to save you from yourself so to speak.

Basically if you respond to an attack with an attack you are equally responsible for the conversation. If you ever feel like you are being attacked or the rules are being broken you can always use the "report to moderator" button on the right hand side of the post in question.

I personally don't engage posters who attack me personally. It's not worth it.

[eye over you]

I just want someone to give me the proverbial "kick under the table" if I am ever as hostile, petty, arrogant and just plain mean-spirited as some forum members are when it comes to picking apart every aspect of other members posts as if they are trying to demonstrate how brilliant they are by reviling every opinion they disagree with when actually they are just revealing themselves to be douchebags.  I prefer to be peaceful if possible but I do tend to let my claws out when I feel attacked or that someone else is being unfairly attacked.

    Welcome to the forum. I guess that sometimes when a persons idea's are challenged, it can feel like you are being attacked. I didn't see where anybody was "attacking" you. You kinda have to have thick skin here at WWGHA, and try not to take things to personally. That can be difficult. In the last couple of months the forum has had some of its longest standing regulars leave over being rubbed the wrong way. Nice to have you aboard!!!

[nogodsforme]

In the 19th century, boys at certain schools in England were handed out cigars from age 11 to keep them safe from tuberculosis... Everyone felt that this old idea was a good one... at the time.

Maybe the lit cigars kept the people with TB far enough away to not cough on them... 

Lung cancer generally takes longer to get than TB, and the boys probably died of something else before they got either. So, it worked!

[LoriPinkAngel]

I didn't see where anybody was "attacking" you.

I suppose "attack" is bit extreme. And it's not my own posts so much as posts I have read by others where they have literally been picked apart phrase by phrase.  There are ways to inform someone you disagree without using a pissy tone and without calling them a f-ing idiot or trying to make them look like one and these ways are not used by alot of posters on here.  There was one thread where people kept nagging, correcting and baiting some poor schizophrenic chick about her grammar and the qualilty of her posts.... i wanted to post "what part of schizophrenic do you people not understand???" but I managed to stay out of that one.

[HAL]

I suppose "attack" is bit extreme. And it's not my own posts so much as posts I have read by others where they have literally been picked apart phrase by phrase.  There are ways to inform someone you disagree without using a pissy tone and without calling them a f-ing idiot or trying to make them look like one and these ways are not used by alot of posters on here.  There was one thread where people kept nagging, correcting and baiting some poor schizophrenic chick about her grammar and the qualilty of her posts.... i wanted to post "what part of schizophrenic do you people not understand???" but I managed to stay out of that one.

LoriPinkAngel,

Why don't you just chill a little? Who's 'hood did you drive into anyway?

[LoriPinkAngel]

Why don't you just chill a little? Who's 'hood did you drive into anyway?

Some unfortunate 23 yr old sexually abused schizophrenic who was off her meds inquiring whether pedophiles (or peadophiles which was also a huge bone of contention) should be allowed to live...   and this was at " O dark hundred" aka between 2-4 am.  Yep, should have backed right out of that 'hood.

[

[eye over you]

Why don't you just chill a little? Who's 'hood did you drive into anyway?

Some unfortunate 23 yr old sexually abused schizophrenic who was off her meds inquiring whether pedophiles (or peadophiles which was also a huge bone of contention) should be allowed to live...   and this was at " O dark hundred" aka between 2-4 am.  Yep, should have backed right out of that 'hood.

[

    I'm pretty sure I know what you are talking about. This young lady started her account and went crazy, accumulating like 50 posts in about an hour. She first said she was schizophrenic, then said she wasn't. Then she admitted to being high on LSD, then denied it. Some forum members are grumpier than others and may have been aggravated with her. I seem to remember Kimberly being very nice to her and explaining that when she came down off her LSD trip, she was welcome to come back. Then she opened another account under a different name and I seem to remember several references to LSD again. I don't believe she ever came back. I must say though that one of the threads she started (the pedophile one) ended up going places.  There are alot of different personalities here though. Some people are nicer than others.

[Kimberly]

I seem to remember Kimberly being very nice to her and explaining that when she came down off her LSD trip, she was welcome to come back.

Aww thanks for noticing. 
My opinion of this forum is you get what you give as well as what you seek. If you see attention such as the before mentioned drive by poster you will get it. But if you can't do it constructively you may not like what you receive. I also don't think it's fair or in good form to judge a forum publicly before really getting "your feet wet". IDK it just puts a bad taste in my mouth, I know if I lurked a forum and found things that I was so opposed to I probably wouldn't even waste my time with an intro thread. I would just leave.

All that being said LoriPinkAngel I hope you enjoy your stay and should you need help or guidance I will be happy to see what I can do, as would any other forum guide, moderator, or admin. So please relax and enjoy your stay. No need to worry about forum politics so soon. Get to know us a little.

[HAL]

All that being said LoriPinkAngel I hope you enjoy your stay and should you need help or guidance I will be happy to see what I can do, as would any other forum guide, moderator, or admin. So please relax and enjoy your stay. No need to worry about forum politics so soon. Get to know us a little.

Kimberly is an A#1 top-notch advice-giver.

Trust me I know.