Author Topic: Paradox of the stone  (Read 878 times)

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Offline TherealityofGod

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Paradox of the stone
« on: July 15, 2012, 08:53:47 AM »
Lets see who can answer this first without a paradoxical answer.

Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?

Offline One Above All

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 08:55:20 AM »
Here's an answer a fundie of sorts gave me:

"Yes. And then he'll be able to lift it."
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Offline TherealityofGod

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 08:59:07 AM »
Good job, all it requires is time to to make it non paradoxical.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 11:27:48 AM »
The Paradox of the Stone is a weak argument against the existence of an omnipotent being. As OAA pointed out, if we give a being the ability to break the rules of logic, then that being will be able to solve any problem that arises by simply breaking logic again.

As far as proving or disproving the existence of a god, this question is as useful as asking if God could create a four sided triangle.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 12:42:13 PM »
Let us see who can answer this
Who are "us"?

Quote
Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?
This question has problems to anyone who has more than half a brain.

A really massive stone would act the same as a black hole. The person who thought of the question, hundreds of years ago, had no conception of the effects of great mass.

Fundamentalist Christians would tell you that as God created the Universe, he is in control of all the mass within the Universe.

Placing something greater than the mass of the entire universe into the universe would have consequences for the universe as a whole. So great would they be, that you really would not be bothered about the answer to this question.

What would God do with that "stone" after he had done the trick for you?

Otherwise Zankuu's answer works.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline One Above All

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2012, 03:28:07 PM »
The Paradox of the Stone is a weak argument against the existence of an omnipotent being. As OAA pointed out, if we give a being the ability to break the rules of logic, then that being will be able to solve any problem that arises by simply breaking logic again.

You misunderstand my point[1] and the omnipotence paradox. The omnipotence paradox doesn't allow a being to break the rules of logic; otherwise, as you pointed out, it'd be pointless. It simply states that omnipotence would require breaking the rules of logic and, since it can't be done, omnipotence is a logical paradox.
Whether that's a good or bad argument is up to you.

My point was simply to point out that logic alone won't reach the fundies. Their brains are remarkably good at doublethink(ing?)[2].
 1. Although I appreciate that you tried to interpret it.
 2. Cognitive dissonance without the dissonance.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2012, 04:04:34 PM »
You misunderstand my point and the omnipotence paradox. The omnipotence paradox doesn't allow a being to break the rules of logic […]

No, I understand, but we're talking about an omnipotent supernatural being. I don’t think this supposed paradox discredits omnipotence. Plus the question is unfair from the start: “Can God create a stone so heavy that even he himself cannot lift it?”

If he can't create it, then he isn't all powerful. And if he can't lift it, then he isn't all powerful. The omnipotent being is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t.

It simply states that omnipotence would require breaking the rules of logic and, since it can't be done, omnipotence is a logical paradox.

Why can’t God break the rules of logic? I see no reason why he wouldn’t be able to. Let’s say God can create a stone so heavy that he can’t lift it. *Boom* Created. There it is. Unliftable. So we just allowed for a logical impossibility. God’s solution to this problem would entail using his omnipotence to then lift the unliftable stone. *Boom* Lifted. Done. The solution is equally as impossible as the problem was. Zero contradictions.
----
TL;DR There can be no contradictions with omnipotence. If you’re creating a problem by using and allowing a logical impossibility (creating a stone too heavy to lift), then the solution must also allow for logical impossibilities (lifting impossibly heavy stones).

EDIT:

Their brains are remarkably good at doublethink(ing?)[1].
 1. Cognitive dissonance without the dissonance.

In psychology we call this Compartmentalization.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 04:07:08 PM by Zankuu »
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline One Above All

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2012, 04:10:23 PM »
<snip>
TL;DR There can be no contradictions with omnipotence. If you’re creating a problem by using and allowing a logical impossibility (creating a stone too heavy to lift), then the solution must also allow for logical impossibilities (lifting impossibly heavy stones).

Good point.

In psychology we call this Compartmentalization.

Thanks for the tip.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 09:19:09 PM »
Lets see who can answer this first without a paradoxical answer.

Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?

Yes but what about Superman? If he's fast the a speeding bullet, wouldn't the surface area of him breaking the sound barrier break a lot of windows in Metropolis? Wouldn't his X-ray vision give his friends cancer?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Boots

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 01:04:24 PM »
Yes but what about Superman? If he's fast the a speeding bullet, wouldn't the surface area of him breaking the sound barrier break a lot of windows in Metropolis? Wouldn't his X-ray vision give his friends cancer?

I don't know about *that*, but if he's faster than a speeding bullet, Lois Lane will be thoroughly unimpressed!!  HOO-AHHHHH!!
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2012, 05:24:48 PM »
would he make iron knowing that it would be used to make chariots that would eventually be too powerful for him?

Offline EV

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Re: Paradox of the stone
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 06:07:54 AM »
would he make iron knowing that it would be used to make chariots that would eventually be too powerful for him?

Would he make Iron faster than a speeding bullet?
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