Gnu asks joe a question about adoption

[Timtheskeptic]

I don't know how old Tim is,

I'm a 30 year old man. 

[Kimberly]

I made myself look at the CGI women. Not too bad.

There were a few that I really liked, some that were pretty good, 50% meh, and some that were pretty bad IMO.. The ones that I really liked were impressive. The texture of the skin, tone, firmness, softness, all of it was far more superior than what I've personally ever seen.

Like Sep said I wonder how one would actually render images of that quality to a video. I'd imagine it would be very time consuming and expensive to make? Nevertheless, I'm not opposed to it as an alternative.

I don't think I'd be the type of person to enjoy CGI. Simply knowing it's fake would ruin it for me. I guess that makes me a voyeur or something?!? J/k I'm not a voyeur, but I imagine there would be some men like me who wouldn't enjoy CGI. I'd also imagine their would be some pedophiles that wouldn't enjoy it. I can't be the only person in the world who is immediately turned off by the thought of it not being real.

Any ways, long windedness aside I think it would be a safe alternative to child porn. I really don't see why it should be illegal. For arguments sake it's really just art. Art depicting a crime should not be a crime. Not everyone's art is for the majority to enjoy. Many people don't like Jonathan Hobin's "exploitation of children[1]" . He uses real children in his In The Playroom photo shoots. They are depicting real crimes. They are also legal.

1.	This is a 2nd link. I used two hyperlinks next to each other. Bad form, I know.

[Kimberly]

You and my ignore list have a date.

Faith doesn't like self-examination.  And responds with smites rather than honest responses.  I am not trolling.  I am trying to get you to take responsibility for the tantrum you threw at Joe.  If he's wrong, then tell him what's wrong and why.  Don't troll him.

OAA, I agree with Azdgari on this one.

[joebbowers]

Here's a collection of photo-realistic women:
http://www.pxleyes.com/blog/2011/09/50-ultra-realistic-3d-female-models/

Some of those are very close to life like! I had no idea the technology was that advanced. +1 for the link.

Most of those are rendered and then edited in PhotoShop. It takes hours to create a single image. This is not the type of quality you should expect from full motion animated films anytime in the immediate future, but in a few years we'll be close to this.

[joebbowers]

We're wasting our time arguing this issue with you, because even if we won, you'd fall back on your 'thought-crime' justification. And we've already explained why that's a fail.

I didn't bring it up, don't blame me for wasting your time. And who are you referring to when you say "we've already explained why that's a fail"? Some people agreed with me, some people agreed with you, and I don't think your argument was very convincing. The fact that CGI porn is illegal on the other hand proves beyond any doubt that it is thought crime. There is no child involved anywhere in it's production, yet the punishment is the same.

Nevertheless, if somehow it turned out to be true, I'd still be against throwing people in jail who haven't harmed anyone just because they might, based solely on their sexual orientation.

We already agreed on this point, so I don't know why you're raising it again.

Because you asked me why I would still be against criminalizing the possession of child porn. If you don't want me to repeat myself, stop asking me questions I've already answered.

[joebbowers]

The purpose of my post was not to try to change his mind about anything except his usual "you're lying!" or "you know exactly what I meant!" accusations that lack any evidence, as well as his usual overreaction and assumption of conspiracy when someone disagrees with him. In short, it was to try to make him grow up.

Not sure how that applied at all to the quote you responded to. Also, my accusations never lack evidence.

[joebbowers]

OOA has clarified over PM that he has enough evidence, based on his past record of catching his mistakes, to reasonably dismiss the idea that he is making a mistake and not realizing it in any given situation.  Dunning-Kruger at its finest.

That is good to know. Thanks for sharing it.

[joebbowers]

I am well aware of nearly every mistake I've ever made, and I am perfectly capable of recognizing them. However, his generalization of My generation included Myself, since I'm part of My generation. I was also raised during My generation, so I know he's wrong about what he said.

I am not wrong. It's an undeniable fact that today's generation is exposed to more animation than previous generations. Most special effects and stunts in films today are CGI. What used to be hand-drawn has been replaced with cell-shaded renderings, what used to be claymation has been replaced by full 3D animation. And not only on movies and TV, but consider the games we play. When I was young, there were no 3D games. I remember when Wolfenstein was blowing everyone's minds with it's next-generation graphics. Today we're surrounded by games that are fully 3D rendered complete with motion tracking based on real live actors.

I said that your generation has been raised on animation. Whether or not you yourself were is irrelevent, an exception doesn't disprove a generalization. You are engaging in what I like to call the WWGHA fallacy. This is the fallacy of responding to a general rule with a rare exception and claiming that the rule is invalid. Similar in spirit to the reducto ad absurdem. I call it the WWGHA fallacy because some people around here do it all the time, more than any other forum I participate in.

If I stated that dogs have four legs, but your dog doesn't have four legs because it lost one in an accident, would that make me wrong? There are possibly thousands of dogs around the world missing limbs for various reasons. Does that make me wrong? Or is it understood by any intelligent person that those are exceptions to the general rule that dogs have four legs?

Besides, I had already guessed that he would've tried to use anything to exclude people's experiences that would prove him wrong, as he always does. If you want to point the finger at someone who can't admit when he's wrong, I recommend joebbowers.

You think your experience proves me wrong? Do I have to point out that you haven't actually said anything about yourself to contradict my theory? You sarcastically implied that I don't know anything about you, but you still haven't explained how your personal experience proves me wrong. Even if you hadn't been raised on animation, at best you'd be an exception. You wouldn't be proving me wrong.

However, you already stated that most of your porn collection is animation. Even if you suddenly acquired all of your porn yesterday, as opposed to building your collection over time, you'd still be far ahead of where I was at your age. When I was 19, I had very little animated porn. My dad's generation and every generation before that had none. Everything about what you've said only supports my argument.

[Seppuku]

Here's a collection of photo-realistic women:
http://www.pxleyes.com/blog/2011/09/50-ultra-realistic-3d-female-models/

Some of those are very close to life like! I had no idea the technology was that advanced. +1 for the link.

Most of those are rendered and then edited in PhotoShop. It takes hours to create a single image. This is not the type of quality you should expect from full motion animated films anytime in the immediate future, but in a few years we'll be close to this.

I think you can get quite close without having them edited in photoshop. Daz Studio's solution as an example. Whilst something with photoshop would be better. This is without the post processing. There's a lot you can do with lighting, texturing and shaders. Heck real-time shaders can be really impressive and can actually create really realistic looking effects, currently not viable for the games market, but possible with today's technology, I know not realistic for my suggestion either, but it shows what the future may hold in computer graphics. Regardless, I think you can still achieve something that looks pretty realistic without the need for post-processing in photoshop.

[joebbowers]

I think there's still a wide gap between "Hey that looks human enough that it doesn't distract me from the story." to "Hey that's just as sexy as a real woman." Particularly considering that the effects of the uncanny valley are amplified by motion.

[Seppuku]

Fair point and it's not as if they're gonna spend the kind of money you need for motion capture (and even of that face). I've seen some pretty damn good examples of motion capture.

Would still renders work? (Where post processing can be used animation causes no problems)

[joebbowers]

Would still renders work? (Where post processing can be used animation causes no problems)

You could make a still that would be indistinguishable from a real photo, but still photos don't have the same effect on sating sexual desire as video.

[Gnu Ordure]

Joe, I was re-reading the thread this evening and came across this exchange, which was then abandoned:

So how did you get a birth certificate for a child abandoned on the street, if you did not go through formal adoption channels?

I'll remind you that I live in China.

I don't understand your answer. What is your residence in China supposed to signify?

Please answer Quesi's question less obliquely.

[joebbowers]

#235

[Gnu Ordure]

Ah, OK, Quesi came back to the question a week later. My mistake.

Reply #235:

And I would love to hear about how, in the absence of any "adoption authorities," in an exceptionally bureaucratic communist country, this abandoned child managed to get a birth certificate.  Which Joe claims she has. 

"Exceptionally bureaucratic", haha. I can buy a passport right down the street. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

Well, that's not very clear. You seem to be doing your usual trick of making ambiguous statements and letting people jump to the wrong conclusions.

In this case, I'm inferring that your daughter has a fake birth-certificate bought on the black market.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

[nogodsforme]

If you get caught buying fake documents by the Chinese authorities you will go to a very unpleasant jail for a very long time. Correct me if I am wrong.[1]

1.	And please be careful what you put online under your real name with your actual photo while living in a dictatorship. I lived in a scary African dictatorship (Congo/Zaire during the Mobutu era) so I know a bit of what I am talking about.

[HAL]

If you get caught buying fake documents by the Chinese authorities you will go to a very unpleasant jail for a very long time.

Not to mention that the Chinese spider Baidu is all over this forum all the time -

Baidu    12:22:15 PM    Viewing the topic     Gnu asks joe a question about adoption

http://www.baidu.com/

[wiki]Baidu[/wiki], Inc. (Chinese: ??; pinyin: Baidù, pronounced BY-doo in English, NASDAQ: BIDU), incorporated on January 18, 2000, is a Chinese web services company headquartered in the Baidu Campus in Haidian District, Beijing, People's Republic of China.[3]

Baidu offers many services, including a Chinese language search engine for websites, audio files, and images. Baidu offers 57 search and community services including Baidu Baike, an online collaboratively built encyclopedia, and a searchable keyword-based discussion forum.[4] Baidu was established in 2000 by Robin Li and Eric Xu. Both of the co-founders are Chinese nationals who studied and worked overseas before returning to China. In September 2011, Baidu ranked 6th overall in the Alexa Internet rankings.[5] During Q4 of 2010, it is estimated that there were 4.02 billion search queries in China of which Baidu had a market share of 56.6%. China's internet-search revenue share in second quarter 2011 by Baidu is 76%[6] In December 2007, Baidu became the first Chinese company to be included in the NASDAQ-100 index.[7]

Baidu, Inc. (Chinese: ??; pinyin: Baidù, pronounced BY-doo in English, NASDAQ: BIDU), incorporated on January 18, 2000, is a Chinese web services company headquartered in the Baidu Campus in Haidian District, Beijing, People's Republic of China.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu

[joebbowers]

In this case, I'm inferring that your daughter has a fake birth-certificate bought on the black market.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know how you got that idea. That's absolutely wrong. It's all perfectly legal.

[magicmiles]

1 - What is the normal process for obtaining a birth certificate in China? Does it involve liaison with some type of government department?

2 - How was your daughters birth certificate obtained, specifically?

3 - If it was obtained by a different means than normal, how was is it still legal?

[Gnu Ordure]

^^^

1 - What is the normal process for obtaining a birth certificate in China? Does it involve liaison with some type of government department?

I found this academic paper which discusses these issues. I hope it's accurate. It first defines the concept of Birth Registration (BR), pn Page 3:

In China, BR refers to the system that records a child’s birth, testifies to its citizenship, and registers its permanent residence, known as Hukou, by the household registration department (Wang, 2001). Hukou registration is the only symbol that BR has been carried out and completed, and Hukou registration is one of the most important components of the household management system in China. A child cannot acquire most of his or her rights without Hukou registration.

It goes on to specify the criteria for obtaining BR:

The references that need to be provided when applying for BR include a medical birth certificate (MBC) issued by the Public Health (PH) department, a birth certificate (BC) issued by the Population and Family Planning (PFP) department, and the parents’ Hukou booklets or identity cards issued by Public Security (PS) departments.

So this discussion with Joe needs to distinguish between BR and the BC.

Joe, on Hai Feng's new birth-certificate, is the information on it accurate and correct? For example, who does it name as her mother? Your wife, or the biological mother?

Also, does she have BR and Hukuo registration? 

In this case, I'm inferring that your daughter has a fake birth-certificate bought on the black market.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know how you got that idea.

<sigh> Here we go again. Perhaps it might be connected to the language you used? You said:

And I would love to hear about how, in the absence of any "adoption authorities," in an exceptionally bureaucratic communist country, this abandoned child managed to get a birth certificate.  Which Joe claims she has. 

"Exceptionally bureaucratic", haha. I can buy a passport right down the street. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

1. In the UK passports are 'applied for', not 'bought'.
2. And you can't obtain a passport here 'down the street' - only from a central national agency (the Identity and Passport Service, which is part of the Home Office). Same in China (the Exit and Entry Administration, part of the Ministry of Public Security). The colloquial expression 'down the street' means 'anywhere'.

So when you say, "I can buy a passport right down the street", that implies obtaining fake certification from the black market. I don't see any other way of interpreting the sentence. Perhaps you could re-phrase it so that it expresses what you meant more clearly?

[Quesi]

Today, the BR procedure remains very complex and three references are involved in
BR application. As Figure 1 shows, the couple first needs to apply for the BC from the
PFP department during the period of pregnancy and then for the MBC from the PH
department after birth. Only with these two references, can they register Hukou for the
child at their local police station with their Hukou booklets. For an adopted child, the
foster parents cannot register Hukou for the adopted child unless they receive adoption
documentation following special adopting procedures that are very strict. However, the
government bureaus make these procedures simpler during national and local censuses.

(page 13-14)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Joe has said he did not go through any adoption process. 

[nogodsforme]

It looks like Joe is talking out of both sides of his mouth. Or maybe he is trying to be obscure on purpose? Or maybe there is more than one Joe? 

[Anfauglir]

It looks like Joe is talking out of both sides of his mouth. Or maybe he is trying to be obscure on purpose? Or maybe there is more than one Joe? 

Guys, recall that.....

If you get caught buying fake documents by the Chinese authorities you will go to a very unpleasant jail for a very long time. Correct me if I am wrong.[1]

1.	And please be careful what you put online under your real name with your actual photo while living in a dictatorship.

.....I do not think there is any point in pressing Joe to state unequivocally whether or not he has deliberated flouted Chinese law.  Given that, is there any point in this thread remaining open?

[Gnu Ordure]

^^^

1. Joe already said he doesn't like being 'censored':

Has this topic played out yet?  Has everyone had their fill of it?  Can I lock it? Please let me know.

How about you stop trying to censor opinions you disagree with and let us have a conversation?

2. Joe just said in his last post (my bold):

In this case, I'm inferring that your daughter has a fake birth-certificate bought on the black market. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know how you got that idea. That's absolutely wrong. It's all perfectly legal.

3. Joe is an adult who can take responsibility for his own words and actions. Nobody's forcing him to discuss these issues and he can drop out of the conversation whenever he wants.

So personally I see no reaon to close the thread.

[joebbowers]

It looks like Joe is talking out of both sides of his mouth. Or maybe he is trying to be obscure on purpose? Or maybe there is more than one Joe? 

Guys, recall that.....

If you get caught buying fake documents by the Chinese authorities you will go to a very unpleasant jail for a very long time. Correct me if I am wrong.[1]

1.	And please be careful what you put online under your real name with your actual photo while living in a dictatorship.

.....I do not think there is any point in pressing Joe to state unequivocally whether or not he has deliberated flouted Chinese law.  Given that, is there any point in this thread remaining open?

Smart mod is smart.

[Gnu Ordure]

^^^

If Joe doesn't want to answer our current questions about his 'perfectly legal' behaviour and is taking the Fifth... then I have no more questions for him.

Gnu.

PS: Anf, I'd appreciate it if you would leave the thread open for a little while, to let others in the discussion have a final word, if they want to.

[nogodsforme]

I want to amend my previous remark after having thought about it:

Please be careful what you put online under your real name with your actual photo while living.

[Gnu Ordure]

I want to amend my previous remark after having thought about it:

Please be careful what you put online under your real name with your actual photo while living.

Nogods, I asked Joe the same question right at the beginning of this discussion:

And the media doesn't help at all with this, either.

And neither does Joe by defining himself as a paedophile when he's not.

And Joe, I would seriously reconsider the wisdom of you announcing on a public forum under your real name that you are a paedophile.

Why are you doing this?

Considering that you are a professional photographer, is this a wise career move?

Seriously. What the f**k are you doing?

Joe said that he knows what he's doing:

I didn't have time to fully answer your "Why are you doing this?" question last night, my wife was dragging me to bed. Now that I have a minute I should explain.

First, I'm not ashamed of something I had no choice in and can't change. That would be just a stupid waste of time.
Second, I haven't admitted to any illegal activity.
Third, regarding my career, nobody does background checks before hiring a photographer, and I doubt my clients (foreign editions of men's fashion magazines mostly) read this website and even if they did, I doubt they would care. The fashion industry is kind of built around guys who like young girls. And guys who like young guys for that matter.
Finally, the same reason that I use my real name and real photo on an atheism forum: hiding behind the veil of anonymity on the internet only serves to marginalize us. Nobody takes anyone in a mask seriously.

Yet, Joe is now asking the Mods to close the thread on the grounds of the Fifth.

Because he used his own name, and because he didn't like the direction the discussion took. So now he's running away from the questions about illegal activity.

This would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

[joebbowers]

I want to amend my previous remark after having thought about it:

Please be careful what you put online under your real name with your actual photo while living.

While living? Got it. Although I'll bet it's probably a lot more difficult to post stuff when you're not living.

And I'm not "running away" you fucking moron.