Author Topic: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption  (Read 18821 times)

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2012, 08:15:27 AM »
I could care less what you think about it.  :)

You couldn't care less. Saying that you could care less means that you do care.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2012, 08:18:14 AM »
I agree with Joe about the joys and challenges of raising children.   I am also an adoptive parent, and although I cannot imagine more joy if my daughter were my biological daughter, there are certainly a more complex set of challenges. 

Joe, I'm assuming that you do not have a birth certificate for Hai Feng.  Were you able to get a national id card for her?  If you needed to get her a passport, could you?  Or is she completely off the grid?

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2012, 08:44:59 AM »
at what age do you prepare them to defend themselves against sexual predators?

I think this is a valid question. Joe if you want people to trust your sincerity perhaps you could show us the other sides of your humanity. Have you or do you plan on having this talk with your children? If not how come? I've had it with my 8 year old, I can't recall the exact age we had the first talk but I believe it was around 5.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2012, 09:14:39 AM »
That is not necessarily true. It would depend on the situation. For example, I assume most of you would be uncomfortable leaving your child in the care of a pedophile. So I would ask, would you be uncomfortable leaving a male coma patient in the care of a homosexual nurse?

(Facepalm) That Joe is asinine! That is insinuating that gays cannot control themselves or that they're  attracted to anything that has a penis. I'm bi, i'm not attracted to every penis and vagina in the world. Goddamn. (Facepalm) And besides, that's different! No gays or lesbian are attracted to all of the same sex. They, like straights, have attraction to some people.

Quote
That is a valid analogous situation, is it not?

No Joe, it isn't. That's insinuating that gays will take advantage of anyone of the same gender. That's bull!

Quote
The attraction is present, the possible victim is vulnerable. Yet I believe the second situation gives you more pause. Why? Modern social conditioning has taught us that it's incorrect to assume the worst of homosexuals, but no such consideration has been extended to pedophiles. It is simply assumed that the pedophile is a rabid amoral opportunistic rapist but where the gay nurse is concerned, let's give him the benefit of doubt.

Homosexuals are very much like any heterosexuals, they're not going to lose control over anything that has the same genitalia as them.

Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2012, 09:19:03 AM »
I'm guessing you don't have kids Hal, or do you honestly think a pet would be an adequate replacement for them?

Sure. Lot's of people choose not to have kids, but rather pets. My pets (cats) are my kids.

I for one don't want to have kids. I don't have a problem with kids, but ijust don't think i can handle the little tornadoes in the house.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2012, 09:31:02 AM »
(Facepalm) That Joe is asinine! That is insinuating that gays cannot control themselves or that they're  attracted to anything that has a penis. I'm bi, i'm not attracted to every penis and vagina in the world. Goddamn. (Facepalm) And besides, that's different! No gays or lesbian are attracted to all of the same sex. They, like straights, have attraction to some people.

Tim, I don't find it asinine. If you're insulted then I believe Joe has made his point. Of course not all gay men are unable to control themselves, just as not all pedophiles are unable to control themselves. Some homosexuals become rapists and some pedophiles become rapists. In the past I've had a gay man attempt to slip a drug in my beer with the goal of, if I had to guess, taking me home. Does this mean I should distrust all gay men? Of course not. I believe this is Joe's point. Although I will admit the situation is a little different when it comes to children.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2012, 10:42:33 AM »
Joe, I'm assuming that you do not have a birth certificate for Hai Feng.  Were you able to get a national id card for her?  If you needed to get her a passport, could you?  Or is she completely off the grid?

Sure, we have a birth certificate. Kids that young don't have ID cards but we can get one.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #94 on: July 21, 2012, 10:43:53 AM »
Although I will admit the situation is a little different when it comes to children.

How is it different when my example was a defenseless coma patient?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #95 on: July 21, 2012, 10:44:58 AM »
(Facepalm) That Joe is asinine!

Ding ding ding ding ding! Give the man a cookie.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #96 on: July 21, 2012, 10:55:29 AM »
I think this is a valid question. Joe if you want people to trust your sincerity perhaps you could show us the other sides of your humanity. Have you or do you plan on having this talk with your children?

Isn't it obvious at this point that I don't care what any of you think of me? I've already told my wife she should talk to them, she said she has once, but I don't know what she said or what advice she gave them. In a couple of years we'll give them a more serious talk.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #97 on: July 21, 2012, 11:00:00 AM »
How is it different when my example was a defenseless coma patient?

It isn't. You're correct. I'll retract that last statement. It's difficult overcoming the "feeling" it should be different.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2012, 11:02:48 AM »
Joe, I'm not sure if this has been asked, but how does your wife feel about your sexual attraction toward young girls? Is she fine with it? If so, has she always been, or was it difficult for her to understand and accept?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #99 on: July 21, 2012, 11:03:35 AM »
I think this is a valid question. Joe if you want people to trust your sincerity perhaps you could show us the other sides of your humanity. Have you or do you plan on having this talk with your children?

Isn't it obvious at this point that I don't care what any of you think of me? I've already told my wife she should talk to them, she said she has once, but I don't know what she said or what advice she gave them. In a couple of years we'll give them a more serious talk.

Ok, that's fair. I was attempting to use it as a stepping to help understand your stance. If you don't wish for anyone to understand pedophiles or to fight for equality then I guess we have nothing else to discuss on this matter.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #100 on: July 21, 2012, 11:33:35 AM »
Joe, I'm not sure if this has been asked, but how does your wife feel about your sexual attraction toward young girls? Is she fine with it? If so, has she always been, or was it difficult for her to understand and accept?

I will explain yet again that I am attracted to sexually developed post pubescent females and that almost all men share this attraction. I am pretty sure it's common knowledge among women that men like sexy teens, and trust them to keep it in their pants, as it were.

Many of the men here admitted sexual attraction to an 11 year old. How many of you told your wives? Was it difficult for them to understand and accept?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #101 on: July 21, 2012, 11:50:55 AM »
joe, I saw the image of that 11 year old you're talking about. I thought she was cute and that she would become quite a beautiful woman. What I didn't think about was having sex with her or trying to find nude images of her. Are you saying I'm the minority in this case?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Quesi

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #102 on: July 21, 2012, 11:54:16 AM »
I am really losing patience with this discussion comparing the “orientation” of pedophilia with the orientation of homosexuality. 

Let’s point out some of the obvious differences. 

Gay men and lesbians can engage in consensual sexual relationships and find partners with whom to enjoy healthy emotional and sexual relationships. 

The only people who seem to think that they should repress these urges are some fundamentalist monotheists.  And most of us here probably feel a combination of distress, and perhaps occasionally amusement, at their attempts to repress their real sexuality. And they often fail.   When Christian preachers bring male escorts on business trips (to carry their luggage) and Republican politicians pick up men in public restrooms, we smirk or shake our heads, and wish they would/could just embrace their sexuality and stop being such hypocrites.  History demonstrates that folks who try to repress their real sexuality, often fail. 

But when we talk about pedophiles, we are assuming that they of course should and can repress these urges.  And maybe they can.  For a year.  Five years.  Ten years.  Twenty years.  Maybe for a whole lifetime.  But maybe not.  I think my example of priests in an earlier post is an excellent illustration.  They try to repress it.  They try hard.  And some may in fact succeed for a lifetime.  But there is ample evidence to prove that often, they are not successful at repressing their sexual drives.  And children are damaged.  Forever. 

In terms of your defenseless coma patient, yeah, coma patients are subject to abuse.  From predatory individuals, or individuals with fetishes related to being attracted to dead people or unconscious people. But normal gay (or straight) men are not going to rape a coma patient. 

First of all, because most people are just not attracted to comatose people. But more importantly, because they are able to find consensual partners, for one night stands, or for forever relationships.   

Gay men and lesbians (even more than straight people) are seeking encounters with peers.  Pedophiles are not seeking relationships with peers.  The power imbalance between who they are and who they are sexually attracted to is significant. 

They are not parallel situations.  I refuse to talk about pedophilia like a civil rights issue. It is recognized as a mental health issue, and I don’t see any reason to treat it as anything else.       

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #103 on: July 21, 2012, 12:07:11 PM »
joe, I saw the image of that 11 year old you're talking about. I thought she was cute and that she would become quite a beautiful woman. What I didn't think about was having sex with her or trying to find nude images of her. Are you saying I'm the minority in this case?

I said most men find her sexually attractive. That doesn't necessarily mean that you visualized having sex with her, and nobody ever said anything about nude images. It's interesting how you specifically mention that you didn't think about it.  :police:
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Quesi

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #104 on: July 21, 2012, 12:07:59 PM »
Joe, I'm assuming that you do not have a birth certificate for Hai Feng.  Were you able to get a national id card for her?  If you needed to get her a passport, could you?  Or is she completely off the grid?

Sure, we have a birth certificate. Kids that young don't have ID cards but we can get one.

I am genuinely confused here.  You have said


There were no adoption authorities. One is my wife's daughter from a previous relationship, the other was abandoned by her parents. I don't mean put up for adoption I mean dumped on the streets. My wife took her in when she was still a baby.

If we had gone through the proper adoption channels [/b]and someone did ask me, I would say no, for two reasons. First, it is a stupid question based on ignorance and prejudice. It would be the same as denying gay men the opportunity to adopt little boys, or denying lesbians the opportunity to adopt little girls. While a think a lot of people think this should be the rule, I think many realize that would be ridiculous.
bold mine

So how did you get a birth certificate for a child abandoned on the street, if you did not go through formal adoption channels? 

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #105 on: July 21, 2012, 12:13:30 PM »
I was watching a music video awhile back and thought the lead singer in the band was really hot. I mentioned it to my fiance and he was like, "KIMBERLY! That boys like 14!" I seriously doubted this, he HAD to be atleast 18-19.. I looked it up and he was 16. Shucks, what a turn off. This music video was sexually explicit. With that combined with the lyrics and his dress ... I was fooled. I bought the sex appeal, hook line and sinker. I don't think there is anything wrong with finding someone attractive. There really is nothing we can do about that. I will mention it again but I think Tim Tebow is one of the sexiest men on earth. There's nothing I can do about that. He's a bible thumping evangelical preacher but damn it all to hell if I don't think he's hot.

So for the record, my issue is not with who we are attracted to. My issue is when someone tries to justify sexual acts with a child. I'm still trying to figure out how young we are talking about here. If it's a physical requirement it's as early as 6ish. If we have to now draw an arbitrary line of ability to give consent and maturity I'm not sure where this conversation will take us. That is where I have an issue. I'm not sure a pedophile is mentally capable of objectively determining when a child is able to give consent or when they will see consent when there is none. I'm not sure when an 8 year old who is advanced verbally, has early onset puberty, and is afraid to stand up to an authority figure would be misinterpreted or justified as a sexual partner.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #106 on: July 21, 2012, 12:15:23 PM »
So how did you get a birth certificate for a child abandoned on the street, if you did not go through formal adoption channels?

I'll remind you that I live in China.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline albeto

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #107 on: July 21, 2012, 12:21:58 PM »
So for the record, my issue is not with who we are attracted to. My issue is when someone tries to justify sexual acts with a child.

Who is justifying sexual acts with a child? 

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2012, 12:39:14 PM »
I did you a favor and looked it up. Though I don't think we should derail this topic further as this one is about his adoption. I shouldn't have gotten it as far off topic as I did.

Gnu responds to Joe about how Joe justifies sex with 11 year olds.

Perhaps we should discuss anything further about the above in that topic. TY.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2012, 01:05:52 PM »
So for the record, my issue is not with who we are attracted to. My issue is when someone tries to justify sexual acts with a child.
Who is justifying sexual acts with a child?

Joe thinks that if a girl has had her first period then she's ready to have sex:
I think that if they were able to get pregnant, that proves that they were ready to have sex.
This would justify a 31-year-old-man having sex with a menstruating 11-year-old girl.

Edit: Joe also said:
I agree, there should be a line, but I think the age of consent should be lowered to the same age that a juvenile could be tried as an adult.
Which in the US is between 6 and 12 (here).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 01:53:43 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2012, 01:09:48 PM »
Gnu responds to Joe about how Joe justifies sex with 11 year olds.

I never justified sex with an 11 year old. I have justified the attraction but specifically stated that it would be impossible to obtain consent, and therefore I wouldn't do it.

Specifically I said:
Quote
If you really want to force an answer out of me, I would say that if and only if, you could determine with 100% certainty that it was completely consensual, and that she understood what she was doing and both the short and long term ramifications of her actions, I think it should be legal. If there is no coercion, manipulation, threat, deception, malice, or abuse, how can it be called rape?

Clearly in this case she is physically ready, the problem is determining her mental fitness. Is an 11 year old capable of that kind of understanding? Perhaps some are, but certainly most aren't. How could you determine which ones are? I don't know. Some specially designed psychological tests, I would imagine. Of course, that's awkward foreplay and it's not reasonable to set age of consent laws on a case-by-case basis.

Gnu seems to believe that's a rubber stamp approval for child sex.

Quote
Perhaps we should discuss anything further about the above in that topic. TY.

Meh, it's  the same discussion. Not sure why they were even split.
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2012, 01:16:08 PM »
IDK but it's easier to keep the two separate since that's how the mods wanted it. I will discuss the adoption and familiar issues in this topic and your sexuality in the other.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2012, 01:16:36 PM »
Joe thinks that if a girl has had her first period then she's ready to have sex:

Don't tell people what I think. You can tell people what I've said, but don't assume you know what I think.

I think that if they were able to get pregnant, that proves that they were ready to have sex.
This would justify a 31-year-old-man having sex with a menstruating 11-year-old girl.

I think it demonstrates that the girl is physically ready. I did not say that means she is mentally or emotionally ready nor that it speaks to her ability to give informed consent. To assume that was my meaning is a rather large leap on your part.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Traveler

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2012, 01:18:52 PM »
...I think it demonstrates that the girl is physically ready. I did not say that means she is mentally or emotionally ready nor that it speaks to her ability to give informed consent. To assume that was my meaning is a rather large leap on your part.

Its not a large leap at all. In fact, I'd guess that its a leap almost everyone reading it would take. Its certainly how I interpreted it. "Ready to have sex." That's pretty damn clear.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2012, 01:25:20 PM »
You made an assumption. Perhaps next time ask for clarification.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2012, 01:35:17 PM »
I never justified sex with an 11 year old. I have justified the attraction but specifically stated that it would be impossible to obtain consent, and therefore I wouldn't do it.
As far as I know, you've never specifically said that it is impossible to obtain consent from an 11-year-old. And the post you quoted certainly doesn't specify it (my bolding):
Quote
If you really want to force an answer out of me, I would say that if and only if, you could determine with 100% certainty that it was completely consensual, and that she understood what she was doing and both the short and long term ramifications of her actions, I think it should be legal. If there is no coercion, manipulation, threat, deception, malice, or abuse, how can it be called rape?

Clearly in this case she is physically ready, the problem is determining her mental fitness. Is an 11 year old capable of that kind of understanding? Perhaps some are, but certainly most aren't. How could you determine which ones are? I don't know. Some specially designed psychological tests, I would imagine. Of course, that's awkward foreplay and it's not reasonable to set age of consent laws on a case-by-case basis.
Try again.

Quote
Gnu seems to believe that's a rubber stamp approval for child sex.
Never said that. The part I bolded is a justification for child sex in some circumstances.


Joe thinks that if a girl has had her first period then she's ready to have sex:
Don't tell people what I think. You can tell people what I've said, but don't assume you know what I think.
More pointless pedantry. As your quote begins with the words "I think that", I believe I can accurately introduce it with the words "Joe thinks that".

Quote
I think that if they were able to get pregnant, that proves that they were ready to have sex.
This would justify a 31-year-old-man having sex with a menstruating 11-year-old girl.
I think it demonstrates that the girl is physically ready. I did not say that means she is mentally or emotionally ready.  nor that it speaks to her ability to give informed consent. To assume that was my meaning is a rather large leap on your part.
As Traveler said, not a large leap at all.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 01:57:38 PM by Gnu Ordure »