Author Topic: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption  (Read 24457 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« on: July 14, 2012, 11:22:31 AM »
Joe, I'm curious; when you adopted your daughters, did you tell the adoption authorities that you're a paedophile?

[split from another topic]
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 03:42:28 PM by Traveler »

Offline albeto

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 692
  • Darwins +71/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2012, 12:45:34 PM »
Joe, I'm curious; when you adopted your daughters, did you tell the adoption authorities that you're a paedophile?

Perhaps it's a terribly naive question, but why would someone do that?  I'm a woman attracted to men and I have no problem knowing how to reign in my sexual impulses, even in the presence of men I find particularly yummy.  Is it naive for me to separate pedophilia from abuse and assume abuse is more likely to be a matter of poor sympathetic social skills than sexual attraction? 

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2012, 12:58:01 PM »
If I'm a recovering addict I'm not going to keep my drug of choice around. While it's not the same thing I don't see the point in flirting with disaster. I have an addictive personality so I set up boundaries for myself to prevent bad choices from being easier to make. If I was attracted to young girls I would adopt sons to prevent any possible abuse on my part. Perhaps I'm too cautious but when you are talking about the emotional and mental welfare of children I think erring on the side of caution is the best policy.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 12:59:56 PM by Kimberly »
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2012, 02:30:06 PM »
Joe, I'm curious; when you adopted your daughters, did you tell the adoption authorities that you're a paedophile?
Perhaps it's a terribly naive question, but why would someone do that?
Because they were asked that specific question.

Here in the UK, the lengthy screening of prospective adoptive parents includes asking about their sexual orientation and their sexual behaviour.

Quote
Is it naive for me to separate pedophilia from abuse and assume abuse is more likely to be a matter of poor sympathetic social skills than sexual attraction?
Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter? 

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12431
  • Darwins +289/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2012, 03:42:42 PM »
Joe, I'm curious; when you adopted your daughters, did you tell the adoption authorities that you're a paedophile?

Isn't that question more on-topic to the thread where Joe's sexuality was already being discussed?  Given the purpose of this thread, it seems pretty tasteless to me.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Seppuku

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3855
  • Darwins +125/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I am gay for Fred Phelps
    • Seppuku Arts
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2012, 04:53:47 PM »
Quote
Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter?

One could reword that question and discrimination laws would come into play.

Of course, I would prefer it if people were up front and honest about it. But ideally I would like it so a child would go to somebody who is loving and will not hurt them, regardless of any traits they may be born with and unfortunately, it's not an ideal world and it's not how people always see it.

Sexual attraction to a child does not equal child rapist nor does it mean they're leering sexually at the child. Of course, it's difficult to know, but it's difficult to know whether or not a heterosexual male is going to rape a woman or abuse her in other ways. Or for somebody sexually attracted to elderly ladies to go out and attack an old person. I suspect there are people sexually attractive to old ladies working in elderly care or looking after their own grandmothers, these people may not take advantage of old ladies in vulnerable situations or sitting there staring. I've never sat and stared at my own relatives, even those who aren't related by blood in that way.

And a mother of a child may not want their kid go to Mexicans, black people, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, communists, atheists, Muslims, Hindus or whatever. Where do we draw the line when it stops being discrimination and an issue of the child's safety?

Of course, it would make most uneasy if a pedophile was taking care of their child, but I think the important question is not whether or not people are comfortable with it, but whether or not that person is genuinely suitable to love and take care of that child. Unfortunately that's the much harder question to answer because how much can you determine about a person? Even prejudices come into play, though ideally they shouldn't.
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 08:44:02 PM »
Quote
Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter?

One could reword that question and discrimination laws would come into play.
Sure. Some people think that convicted paedophiles should have the right to adopt children:

December 2010:
Quote
Helen Reece, a reader in law at the London School of Economics, called on Theresa May, the Home Secretary, to relax rules which automatically ban sex offenders from caring for children, saying that this could breach their human rights.
Do you agree with her, Sepp?

Quote
And a mother of a child may not want their kid go to Mexicans, black people, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, communists, atheists, Muslims, Hindus or whatever. Where do we draw the line when it stops being discrimination and an issue of the child's safety?
Wherever we want.

Quote
Of course, it would make most uneasy if a pedophile was taking care of their child,
Indeed; that's why I asked how Albeto would feel if it was her daughter.

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 11:09:07 PM »
Joe, I'm curious; when you adopted your daughters, did you tell the adoption authorities that you're a paedophile?

There were no adoption authorities. One is my wife's daughter from a previous relationship, the other was abandoned by her parents. I don't mean put up for adoption I mean dumped on the streets. My wife took her in when she was still a baby.

If we had gone through the proper adoption channels and someone did ask me, I would say no, for two reasons. First, it is a stupid question based on ignorance and prejudice. It would be the same as denying gay men the opportunity to adopt little boys, or denying lesbians the opportunity to adopt little girls. While a think a lot of people think this should be the rule, I think many realize that would be ridiculous.

Second, when someone asks if you are a pedophile, they are not really asking if you are attracted to little kids, they are asking if you have sex with little kids. And the answer to that question for me at least is no.

Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter? 

It's pretty naive of you to think that I give a fuck what a woman who abandons her child wants. Whether that means given up for adoption or dumped on the street, the mother loses the right to make any decisions about how or with whom their child is raised.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 11:11:16 PM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Seppuku

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3855
  • Darwins +125/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I am gay for Fred Phelps
    • Seppuku Arts
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2012, 05:46:40 AM »
Quote
Sure. Some people think that convicted paedophiles should have the right to adopt children:

A convicted paedophile has already demonstrated that they cannot be trusted around children. Can't do the time? Don't do the crime. They've commited the crime, no we don't know for certain if they'll re-commit the crime, but we CRB check anybody who works with vulnerable people or handles sensitive information, we consider a person's criminal record in determining whether they're suitable for a job and can be considered trust worthy to not take advantage of a situation. It's very difficult to tell what a person will or will not do, but if a person has done it before then they've already broken that trust. If they want to work with children or adopt, then they should have thought about that before going out and sexing a child.

 Somebody who only has these sexual urges but doesn't act on them is not the same as being a convicted paedophile. The urges are natural and cannot be helped, you might be able to repress them and pretend they're not there by repression isn't exactly healthy (are gay healings healthy?). Why should somebody who doesn't act upon them and in every way demonstrates themselves to be an upstanding citizen be discriminated against?

Quote
Do you agree with her, Sepp?

Depends on the charges. If the person had sex with child then sex, yes the law is right. If the person had sex when they were themselves underaged (which counts as a sex offense) then no, it isn't. If you have no reason to believe that this child will come to harm, then what's the problem?

Quote
Wherever we want.

Unfortunately it should be based on something a little more significant and not people's prejudices.

Quote
Indeed; that's why I asked how Albeto would feel if it was her daughter.

I think how the old parent 'feels' is irrelevant. It should be about the child and the new parent. The important thing is that the child goes to a loving home with family who'll take good care of them and not harm a child. For example (hypothetically speaking): you give up your child for adoption, but don't want Joe getting his hands on her because he has a sexual attraction to child, despite him believing he should not ever harm a child and instead enjoys sexual relations with his wife. Then the child ends up going a father who turns out to be abusive, violent and somebody who doesn't care about the child, but merely adopted to claim the benefits or his wife wears the child like an accessory.

If the latter has no tell-tale signs, they might not even be abusive on the day of wanting the child, something like that could develop later in life, but this is something we can't just tell about a person.

But the former, we decide is unfit to adopt a child, even if they could be a loving and caring parent who'd never hurt a child.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 05:54:13 AM by Seppuku »
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2012, 04:56:28 PM »
Joe, I'm curious; when you adopted your daughters, did you tell the adoption authorities that you're a paedophile?

There were no adoption authorities.
I'm not surprised to hear this.

Quote
If we had gone through the proper adoption channels and someone did ask me, I would say no, for two reasons.
I'm not surprised to hear that you'd lie, either.

Quote
First, it is a stupid question based on ignorance and prejudice. It would be the same as denying gay men the opportunity to adopt little boys, or denying lesbians the opportunity to adopt little girls.
Here in the UK, gays and lesbians can adopt children, so they don't need to lie about their sexuality. 

Quote
Second, when someone asks if you are a pedophile, they are not really asking if you are attracted to little kids, they are asking if you have sex with little kids.
Sometimes the person asking may understand the distinction between orientation and behaviour. 

Quote
Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter? 
It's pretty naive of you to think that I give a f**k what a woman who abandons her child wants. Whether that means given up for adoption or dumped on the street, the mother loses the right to make any decisions about how or with whom their child is raised.
It's not a matter only of what the mothers might want, but what we as a society want, and what risks we're willing to to take with our children's lives.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 05:12:19 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Seppuku

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3855
  • Darwins +125/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I am gay for Fred Phelps
    • Seppuku Arts
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2012, 05:50:35 PM »
Quote from: Gnu Ordure
If we had gone through the proper adoption channels and someone did ask me, I would say no, for two reasons.

I'm not surprised to hear that you'd lie, either.

What would you do if you really wanted to adopt a child, but knew you'd be turned away because of something you were born with? When you'd know you'd love, care for and cherish this child and never bring them to harm and certainly would do nothing to abuse them. But society says this particular trait makes you a bad person, it makes you unfit as a member of society, it makes you unfit to work with children and unfit to be a parent.
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline Zankuu

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2113
  • Darwins +132/-3
  • Gender: Male
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2012, 05:57:51 PM »
Gnu, if it makes you feel any better Joe has stated that he's not attracted to infants or prepubescent children.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Timtheskeptic

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2239
  • Darwins +20/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • atheist and loving it
    • atheist blogspot
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2012, 06:03:07 PM »
Quote from: Gnu Ordure
If we had gone through the proper adoption channels and someone did ask me, I would say no, for two reasons.

I'm not surprised to hear that you'd lie, either.

What would you do if you really wanted to adopt a child, but knew you'd be turned away because of something you were born with? When you'd know you'd love, care for and cherish this child and never bring them to harm and certainly would do nothing to abuse them. But society says this particular trait makes you a bad person, it makes you unfit as a member of society, it makes you unfit to work with children and unfit to be a parent.

That is a good point, and sadly people views things like your sexuality, your race, and so on and determine how they think you would raise them. There is no reason to deny someone the right to adopt children unless they are proven unfit to be parents. I know some people who are gay who adopted children. Some people thought that gays and lesbians were unfit because they might harm children physically or pshycologically. As for pedophiles, it's really, really difficult, even for me i'll admit, to allow them to adopt children. I can understand some people feeling uncomfortable with the idea of pedophiles raising kids, but if all they're going to do is make a slippery slope argument, they'll get nowhere.


Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12431
  • Darwins +289/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2012, 06:45:41 PM »
Sometimes the person asking may understand the distinction between orientation and behaviour.

Which is the safer assumption to make, from Joe's perspective?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Seppuku

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3855
  • Darwins +125/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I am gay for Fred Phelps
    • Seppuku Arts
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2012, 06:49:53 PM »
It's a difficult one for me too, I admit, but ideally I want to see it that people's ability to parent is based on their ability to parent. The rest to my mind is irrelevant when it comes to caring for a child. When it comes to putting it into practice, there are other issues to consider and I'm not knowledgeable enough to say how I'd put my ideals into practice or how I'd like to see them put into practice.
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2012, 07:11:29 PM »
Quote from: Gnu Ordure
I'm not surprised to hear that you'd lie, either.
What would you do if you really wanted to adopt a child, but knew you'd be turned away because of something you were born with? When you'd know you'd love, care for and cherish this child and never bring them to harm and certainly would do nothing to abuse them. But society says this particular trait makes you a bad person, it makes you unfit as a member of society, it makes you unfit to work with children and unfit to be a parent.

Sepp, do you think that formal decisions about the adoption of children should be made by an authorized lawful organization or by the prospective adoptive parents themselves?

If the former, do you think that the authorities should have the right to ask whatever questions they want in order to inform their decisions, in the expectation that those questions will be answered honestly?

If so, do you think that anyone found to have deliberately answered those questions dishonestly, should be disqualified from the process?

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2012, 07:52:25 PM »
Sometimes the person asking may understand the distinction between orientation and behaviour.

Which is the safer assumption to make, from Joe's perspective?
From anyone's perspective, one might safely assume that professional risk-assessors understand the distinction.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12431
  • Darwins +289/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2012, 08:12:38 PM »
From anyone's perspective, one might safely assume that professional risk-assessors understand the distinction.

Maybe people are more professional in Britain than elsewhere.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Seppuku

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3855
  • Darwins +125/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I am gay for Fred Phelps
    • Seppuku Arts
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2012, 09:09:02 PM »
Quote from: Gnu Ordure
I'm not surprised to hear that you'd lie, either.
What would you do if you really wanted to adopt a child, but knew you'd be turned away because of something you were born with? When you'd know you'd love, care for and cherish this child and never bring them to harm and certainly would do nothing to abuse them. But society says this particular trait makes you a bad person, it makes you unfit as a member of society, it makes you unfit to work with children and unfit to be a parent.

Sepp, do you think that formal decisions about the adoption of children should be made by an authorized lawful organization or by the prospective adoptive parents themselves?

If the former, do you think that the authorities should have the right to ask whatever questions they want in order to inform their decisions, in the expectation that those questions will be answered honestly?

If so, do you think that anyone found to have deliberately answered those questions dishonestly, should be disqualified from the process?

I feel that the adoptive agency should determine whether or not a child should go to an adoptive parent. However, I would like that decision to not be based on any discriminatory grounds.

Should they be able to ask whatever they feel is necessary in order to be able to make a clear assessment? Of course. If somebody is found to have deliberately answered dishonest, should the person be disqualified from the process? I think that should depend. If the process itself is in itself flawed and decisions are based on discriminatory factors, then I could not fault the person for lying. I suspect before it was okay for gays to adopt that there were people who lied about their sexuality so they could adopt. What shouldn't hapeen is for the situation to occur where these people would have to lie.

If the person was lying when knowing full well that their sexuality didn't matter to the agency and that the question wanted to address the issue of  whether or not you act upon those urges, then it would look suspicious and this would be a different situation.

If the system is going to say "no" on discriminatory grounds, yet you know you're not going harm the child and that you'll try to be the best possible father you could and had that ability, would you still tell the agency the truth? No matter how much you and your wife want to adopt?
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline albeto

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 692
  • Darwins +71/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2012, 10:52:39 AM »
Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter?

I see that by the time I've found this thread, many of my thoughts have already been expressed.  The assumption that an attraction to young adults (which is what young teens are, and what we're talking about here, right?) is synonymous with an instinct to coerce sexual behaviors is an idea I no longer find persuasive. The thing is, if we strip away assumptions and stick to known facts, how much evidence is there for the claim that people who are attracted to very young adults coerce these people?  It used to be thought that homosexuals  "groom" young adults for their own sexual gratification, and I see the same assumption being applied here.  I just wonder if it has merit or if it's an appeal to tradition, a tradition based on ignorance and prejudice

.  Now that human behavior is being studied with a scientific methodology, I suspect these answers will become available.  I just don't know that we can assume it just because we always have because ultimately, what we're talking about is sexual attraction.  Most of us are perfectly capable of reigning in our biological urges when faced with people we find sexually attractive.  I suspect what you are referring to is more a matter of sociopathy - an inability to recognize and respond with empathy to the sufferings of another. 

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2012, 02:29:51 PM »
I feel that the adoptive agency should determine whether or not a child should go to an adoptive parent. However, I would like that decision to not be based on any discriminatory grounds.
Is there any evidence that paedophiles are discriminated against? Perhaps that should be established before the lying starts. (I've been trying to find out if this is the case in the UK, but without success).

Quote
If the system is going to say "no" on discriminatory grounds, yet you know you're not going harm the child and that you'll try to be the best possible father you could and had that ability, would you still tell the agency the truth? No matter how much you and your wife want to adopt?
If I lied about something serious, it's possible that the child might be taken off me if the lie is discovered. (Same as lying on a job application form - regardless of whether you're doing the job satisfactorily, you'll be sacked if it's discovered).

That would hurt the child, and I think it would be wrong to take the risk.

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2012, 03:25:22 PM »
In the US, for all adoptions, a “home study” is needed.  A home study is not just an evaluation of the home, but also a series of meetings and interviews with the prospective parent(s) to determine if the family is appropriate for the placement of a child.  In addition, there are usually medical and sometimes psychological exams required prior to acceptance.  The home study is an (appropriately?) intrusive process, in which the prospective parents are evaluated on a wide range of factors.  My home study delved into my own childhood, the way I was disciplined by my parents, the ways I plan to discipline my own child, my commitment to education, my ability to deal with a wide range of special needs that an adoptive child may face, my values concerning race and ethnicity and my ability to raise a child of another race, including my personal and professional associations with people of a variety of races, my religious beliefs (or lack thereof), my membership in a wide range of groups and organizations, my relationships with my family members, my support systems, etc.  Friends and family members (and my boss) were interviewed and asked a series of specific questions about me. I underwent an FBI fingerprint check, and also a fingerprint check in every state in which I have resided in the past 20 years. 

In the US, we love states’ rights, so different states have different rules about who can adopt.  I think there are some states that still prohibit gay men and lesbian couples from adoption.  But certainly not NY.  And different adoption agencies have different slants.  There are GOBS of adoption agencies that cater to Christian families.  Here in NYC there are a few that cater to Jewish families.  And an increasing number specializing in gay and lesbian families. 

Of course, there are different kinds of adoption.  A pregnant woman may decide that she doesn’t want to parent, and she (hopefully in conjunction with an agency and an attorney who are interested in protecting her rights) she makes up an adoption plan, screens prospective families, and has the final say.  For the adoption of a child from foster care, there are a different set of agencies involved, including state social service agencies. For international adoptions, adoptive parents have to meet the criteria of their states, their adoption agencies, and the criteria set by the country from which the child is being adopted.

China, which has strict restrictions on the number of children a family may have, faces thousands of abandoned children (mostly girls and kids with special needs) every year.  In addition, unlike most countries (including the US) which allow a birth mother to relinquish a child who she does not feel capable of parenting, China does not allow relinquishments.  However, they have a strong system in place, in which the kids are put into orphanages that work with foreign (mostly US I think) adoption agencies.  But from the side of China, the criteria for adoptive parents are very clear.  They want heterosexual two parent families with substantial incomes.  (They used to allow single parent adoptions, but now only allow single parents to adopt in the case of special needs children).  They have high standards for the health of the adoptive parents, including body mass index.  In other words, fat people can (no longer) adopt from China.  And no criminal records. 

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2012, 04:42:05 PM »
Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter?
I see that by the time I've found this thread, many of my thoughts have already been expressed.  The assumption that an attraction to young adults (which is what young teens are, and what we're talking about here, right?) ...
We're using Joe's definition of paedophile, attraction to a post-pubescent child; e.g. a 31-year-old and a pubescent 11-year-old.

Quote
.... is synonymous with an instinct to coerce sexual behaviors is an idea I no longer find persuasive.
Well, I never made that assumption, Albeto, so that's a strawman. Most paedophiles do not coerce their victims, if we're using the wiki definition of coercion:
Quote
the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force.
Paedophiles attempt to persuade or seduce. Between adults, attempts to persuade or seduce are socially acceptable, as the participants are equals.

A 31-year-old man is not equal to an 11-year-old girl. There is an imbalance of power, knowledge, experience and most important, the ability to understand the potential consequences of sexual behaviour i.e. the ability to give informed consent to what is being proposed.

Quote
The thing is, if we strip away assumptions and stick to known facts, how much evidence is there for the claim that people who are attracted to very young adults coerce these people?  It used to be thought that homosexuals  "groom" young adults for their own sexual gratification, and I see the same assumption being applied here.  I just wonder if it has merit or if it's an appeal to tradition, a tradition based on ignorance and prejudice
You could easily research that, Albeto. The wiki article says that child grooming Wiki is a real phenomenon.

Quote
Most of us are perfectly capable of reigning in our biological urges when faced with people we find sexually attractive.
Yes, but adopting a child requires a level of physical intimacy which doesn't happen between adult strangers. To a (true) paedophile, a four-year-old may look like Brad or Angelina do to an adult.

Imagine that you were responsible for children who (somehow) looked like Brad or Angelina. And that you were responsbile for dressing and undressing them, and giving them baths and washing them all over. And that he/she was happy to curl up naked on your lap and kiss you and tell you how much they love you - that's what real children do. And all the time you're feeling this intense sexual attraction to them. You have an erection/you're wet.

See the problem there, Albeto? Regardless of whether the adult can resist this constant temptation, that bathroom scenario is pernicious. There's a sexual atmosphere in the room which should not be there. A child should not be the object of its parent's sexual desire, regardless of whether the desire is acted upon.

Therefore, paedophiles should stay away from naked children.

Gnu.

PS. The concept of the biological incest taboo is also relevant here. If the taboo operates effectively, it prevents intra-familial sexual desire and activity. A significant proportion of incest cases involve step-relations, because the taboo is less effective in those cases. With adoption, it's even less effective.

PPS: Albeto, I just realized that you didn't actually answer my question:
Quote
Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter?

Would you be happy for a (true) paedophile to bathe your 4-year-old daughter? Even though he assured you that he would never act on his sexual feelings for her, and that he would ignore his erection? And let's say he's trustworthy and he keeps his word - though he goes off later to masturbate alone about the experience.

Would you be cool with that?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 05:20:36 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2700
  • Darwins +78/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2012, 10:33:39 PM »
So, Joe's girlfriend found a baby laying around on the street and didn't turn the child over to state authorities? Did she know of Joe's fondness for nubile Asian girls?

I am not sure why but Joe remindeds of Woody Allen, Bernie Ward and Donatien Alphonse François.

I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2012, 03:31:34 AM »
So, Joe's girlfriend found a baby laying around on the street and didn't turn the child over to state authorities?
That's about accurate.

Quote
Did she know of Joe's fondness for nubile Asian girls?

I'm not gay, so of course she knew. How many heterosexual men are not attracted to nubile Asian girls?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2012, 03:41:28 AM »
We're using Joe's definition of paedophile, attraction to a post-pubescent child; e.g. a 31-year-old and a post-pubescent 11-year-old.

Fixed that for you.

A child should not be the object of its parent's sexual desire, regardless of whether the desire is acted upon.

I'm not sure what relevance the word "should" has in discussing involuntary behavior. You're also making the assumption that pedophiles automatically find ALL children attractive. Assuming you're a heterosexual male, does that mean you automatically find ALL women attractive? If you had a beautiful sister, what would stop you from sleeping with her? What if she was only a step sister, or adopted sister?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:43:42 AM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Seppuku

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3855
  • Darwins +125/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I am gay for Fred Phelps
    • Seppuku Arts
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2012, 05:17:57 AM »
Quote from: Gnu Ordure
Is there any evidence that paedophiles are discriminated against? Perhaps that should be established before the lying starts. (I've been trying to find out if this is the case in the UK, but without success).

Quote from: Gnu Ordure
Is it naive of me to think that a mother giving up her daughter for adoption wouldn't want her to be adopted by paedophiles, even if they claim to be non-practising? Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter? 

If it is as you state, then this is discrimination, because it's a problem for the mother even when the person is non-practising then it's not about the child's well being, it's about how they feel about paedophiles, even those who don't act on it.

Quote
If I lied about something serious, it's possible that the child might be taken off me if the lie is discovered. (Same as lying on a job application form - regardless of whether you're doing the job satisfactorily, you'll be sacked if it's discovered).

That would hurt the child, and I think it would be wrong to take the risk.

Again, what if the adoptive parent was gay and they had reason to believe that their being gay would affect the results, then they would likely lie, even on a job application form, there was a time when gays had to hide or lie about their sexuality and in some places it's still the case. If they got caught lying, yes, they'd pay for it, but if in this situation the system is flawed, then on a moral ground, can you really fault the person for lying? On a job application form somebody doesn't have to state their sexuality, it's optional. The question shouldn't be: "Are you a paedophile?" It should be, "have you or would you ever abuse a child, be it sexually or otherwise?" if you wanted it to not be discriminative.I'd even say that if a person's sexuality is a factor in the final decision of whether or not somebody adopts is in itself discriminatory, sexuality does determine how they'll act. I mean, in a job application nobody should be worried if a gay person is going to rape a male colleague, it'd be ludicrous and gay rights activists would have field day.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 05:49:57 AM by Seppuku »
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2012, 11:28:15 AM »
I'm sorry ahead of time for anyone who chooses to be offended by this. I'm offended by my continued silence so here it goes.

First of all abusive patterns start before any sexual act occurs. It's not as simple as the sexual act it'self. I can not for the life of me wrap my head around how this conversation has become logical for an admitted pedophile to "adopt" young girls. I've watched this from the sidelines and it truly amazes me how well spoken and articulative you are Joe. In one hand I find myself wanting to agree that there is a problem with discrimination of pedophiles who have "never" hurt a child. I watch people as rational as Madbunny[1] find themselves agreeing with several points made by Joe. I really try as hard as I can to grasp this concept... Then I imagine a young girl having a conversation with Joe. How easily she could be persuaded to giving up consent. Joe you are master linguist of Jedi level. You arguably have the power to make the most rational of us all fall to your mighty sword of words. But I don't buy it. Maybe it's my own self preservation as a mother, and maternal instinctive drive to say "this is not right". But those instincts are equally as rational and logical as your sexual attraction to children.

I think there have been several times where Gnu has adequately pointed out irrational thought processes made by Joe in regards to his "fantasy" as Gnu called it. These thought process are dangerous. They are what I consider "red flags" or warning signs that should be addressed. And I'm not talking about here on this forum, I'm talking about IRL.

People keep wanting to compare this to gay rights. Apples and oranges man. Being gay is not the same thing as being a pedophile. The level of potential harm to a child makes this different. Potential harm doesn't imply that a pedophile will ever abuse a child. But if you identify thought processes that are destructive to the welfare of a child you have a problem. When you can paint a picture in your head that rationally justifies the objectification of a child who hasn't mentally matured enough to be able to make an informed decision, you have a problem.

In the "other" thread we are talking about how the possession of child porn should be legal. Some of us have rationalized this down to minimal sentencing; I can concede to that. But I can't understand how we can have that conversation, a thread started requesting donations for a child's operation, and then a thread created to help raise funds for a porno. Now I can't link these conversations and say with any certainty that we are being manipulated or that these "funds" will or will not be properly used.

What I can say is we have an admitted pedophile caring for two children; one of which authorities may not even knows exists. That pedophile has asked for money for an operation in a tone that doesn't represent any attempt has been made to prevent this child from having a negative self image. I feel like I'm watching an infomercial on TV that appeals to pity. IF I feel this way about how the story was portrayed to me how does this child feel? Well I assume, whether I'm justified or not, pretty pitiful themselves. That is sad.

Then funds are asked for a porn production in the name of LGBT with no proof that the 50K desired will help the community at all. So I feel very much like we are being conned by a well spoken and articulative conman. I may not be the best debater, have the best written or verbal communication skills. I may not be able to slice logic down the very finest of details. I don't always separate emotion from logic as well as some of you. But in this case, I think we should appeal to our emotions. Because it's the red flag that warns us of danger. And IMHO you, Joe, are dangerous man.
 1. Sorry for the shout out MB, I'm not disagreeing the points you made in particular. Your's just stood out the most to me.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline albeto

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 692
  • Darwins +71/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gnu asks joe a question about adoption
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2012, 07:35:37 PM »
We're using Joe's definition of paedophile, attraction to a post-pubescent child; e.g. a 31-year-old and a pubescent 11-year-old.

That's not Joe's definition. 

Well, I never made that assumption, Albeto, so that's a strawman.

My impression of your posts is in defending against potential abuse.  Why would potential abuse be a factor unless the two are understood to be correlated? 

Most paedophiles do not coerce their victims, if we're using the wiki definition of coercion:

I consider grooming for sexual behavior a kind of coercion.  It's a subtle force based on clever social and emotional manipulation.  That's what makes it not a healthy relationship. 

A 31-year-old man is not equal to an 11-year-old girl. There is an imbalance of power, knowledge, experience and most important, the ability to understand the potential consequences of sexual behaviour i.e. the ability to give informed consent to what is being proposed.

For the sake of argument, if we're using pedophilia in the way Joe has used, we're talking a young adult, sexually mature (age 13+ generally), more than 5 years the junior of the older partner.  I suspect many teens in the western world are offered the privilege of postponing maturity as they are safely tucked away in schools, isolated from society many hours of the day, encouraged to participate in specifically approved groupthink.  I'd be interested in knowing how "maturity" is understood, as I think it contributes greatly to the conversation. 

Yes, but adopting a child requires a level of physical intimacy which doesn't happen between adult strangers. To a (true) paedophile, a four-year-old may look like Brad or Angelina do to an adult.

By this argument, step-daughters ought not live in the same home with their mothers' new husbands, and blended families with teen step-siblings ought to be given separate residence.   

A (true) pedophile isn't limited to prepubescent children, by definition, and I thought we're talking about the more common version - one individual over 18 attracted to another individual less than 18 with at least 5 years difference in age, post pubescent (sexually mature, physiologically speaking).  Four year olds are irrelevant to my part of the discussion.  At least, they have been.  In any case, I wouldn't support that argument anyway. 

Imagine that you were responsible for children who (somehow) looked like Brad or Angelina. And that you were responsbile for dressing and undressing them, and giving them baths and washing them all over. And that he/she was happy to curl up naked on your lap and kiss you and tell you how much they love you - that's what real children do. And all the time you're feeling this intense sexual attraction to them. You have an erection/you're wet.

I've had jobs where there was close physical and emotional proximity.  I did my job very well and professionally regardless of the potential involved.   In the same way, we trust doctors to provide the best medical care possible regardless of how natural it is for a person to respond physiologically to a particularly attractive patient who is in various states of undress.  You're suggesting a person can't control these sexual urges if, and only if, their sexual attraction includes young adults.  What makes this group incapable of doing what other groups can? 

See the problem there, Albeto? Regardless of whether the adult can resist this constant temptation, that bathroom scenario is pernicious. There's a sexual atmosphere in the room which should not be there. A child should not be the object of its parent's sexual desire, regardless of whether the desire is acted upon.

Therefore, paedophiles should stay away from naked children.

Gnu.

Would this problem be solved if the parent doesn't take care of bath-time duties? 

PPS: Albeto, I just realized that you didn't actually answer my question:
Quote
Would you be cool with that, Albeto, if it was your daughter?

Would you be happy for a (true) paedophile to bathe your 4-year-old daughter? Even though he assured you that he would never act on his sexual feelings for her, and that he would ignore his erection? And let's say he's trustworthy and he keeps his word - though he goes off later to masturbate alone about the experience.

Would you be cool with that?

The question is irrelevant.  I'm not talking about my 4 year old daughter or any other prepubescent child.  I'm talking about a relationship in which one party is over the age of 18, one is under the age of 18 but sexually, physiologically mature, where there are at least 5 years difference in age.