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Offline jedweber

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"Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« on: July 10, 2012, 12:16:21 PM »
Conservative "pundit" S.E. Cupp, who now co-hosts a show on MSNBC, differentiates herself from the right-wing telebimbo pack by claiming to be an atheist, so it's more than a little annoying when she keeps finding stupid reasons to bash us... 

Apparently, we're not fit to hold public office, because we're a minority and don't have a right to represent the majority of god-fearing people...

Quote
Atheist S.E. Cupp: ‘I Would Never Vote for an Atheist President'

 ..."And you know what? I would never vote for an atheist president. Ever… Because I do not think that someone who represents 5 to 10 percent of the population should be representing and thinking that everyone else in the world is crazy, but me.
    …
    I like that there is a check, OK? That there‘s a person in the office that doesn’t think he’s bigger than the state… I like religion being a check and knowing that my president goes home every night addressing someone above him and not thinking all the power resides right here… Atheists don’t have that."

And last week, she called an atheist group "crazy" and "militant" for daring to rate presidential candidates on their approach to church/state separation:
Quote
S.E. Cupp Calls Out a Group of ‘Crazy, Militant Atheists’ for… Wait, What?!

    “Speaking of atheists, I find atheists — militant atheists — to be among the most intolerant people that I’ve ever come across in my religious-sort-of dealings…”
    …
    “I am not one of these crazy, militant atheists — and I say crazy and mean it…”

If she's not a fundie in disguise, she must be one self-loathing atheist...

Offline One Above All

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 12:23:30 PM »
Obvious fundie is obvious.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 12:57:58 PM »

If she's not a fundie in disguise, she must be one self-loathing atheist...

Sometimes super conservative worshippers of Ayn Rand and the Republican party can get this way. They are atheist, yet none the less quite mentally f'ed up.
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Offline Frank

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 01:39:09 PM »
She's an atheist like I'm a theist although I certainly wouldn't kick her out of bed. :P



Bet she wears those specs just to make herself look brainy.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 01:44:34 PM »
She's an atheist like I'm a theist although I certainly wouldn't kick her out of bed. :P



Bet she wears those specs just to make herself look brainy.


What you may or may not want to put your dick in isn't an indication of anything but what you may or may not want to put your dick in. Just sayin'

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Frank

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 01:56:09 PM »


What you may or may not want to put your dick in isn't an indication of anything but what you may or may not want to put your dick in. Just sayin'

What does this indicate?

Quote
Cupp describes herself as an atheist who "really aspires to be a person of faith some day

Looks like that day arrived and she kept it to herself.

Quote
"As an atheist myself, I like to think I adhere to the same Judeo-Christian values that most of religious America does."

AKA Being a greedy hypocrite and lying about it.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:14:57 PM by Frank »
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 04:52:23 PM »
We have got to stop being so ethical! Look at this chick! She knows she is full of it.

I swear I am going to become a right-wing fundie "former atheist but now a Christian" pundit one of these days.  You can rant and rage. You can just make sh!t up. Nobody fact-checks you or expects you to be logically consistent. And it pays so much better than being a black dreadlocked commie mommie.  :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 05:35:58 PM »
I've said this before, but when her 15 minutes begin to tick down she's going to "see the light" and then sell a lot of fucking books. I'll eat my socks if she doesn't end up trying to pull a political version of Antony Flew.
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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 10:53:12 PM »
I agree with Hatter - the absurdity of her stance doesn't rule out the possibility that she is entirely genuine. The entire American conservative platform pretty much runs on the just-world fallacy. If most atheists are considered by the majority to be crazy and intolerant it must be because it's true; otherwise they would not be a minority and hence would not be considered crazy and intolerant. QED

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 07:56:54 AM »
the just-world fallacy.

I'm intrigued but do not fully understand what you mean.  Would you please expand on this? 
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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 09:02:33 AM »
We have got to stop being so ethical! Look at this chick! She knows she is full of it.

I swear I am going to become a right-wing fundie "former atheist but now a Christian" pundit one of these days.  You can rant and rage. You can just make sh!t up. Nobody fact-checks you or expects you to be logically consistent. And it pays so much better than being a black dreadlocked commie mommie.  :P

Let Jesus into your life, become a God loving Christian like me, but I must warn you, Christians are a bunch of wankers. But it doesn't matter that I say that because I am a true Christian, therefore I represent the rest.

It also makes me a wanker, but please don't tell God, he might smite me.
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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 01:18:07 PM »
Basically the just-world fallacy operates under the presumption that consequences are always directly proportional to what people deserve. Hence the conservative view that it's all a perfectly-leveled playing field as long as Big Gubmint and those bleeding-heart liberals don't tip the scales.

People can't afford roofs over their heads? Well, it must be because they're just so darn lazy. It's not fair to distribute money to these people because they obviously didn't earn it like those hard-working rich people.

A woman wants to terminate her pregnancy? She should have thought about that before spreading her legs. Only sluts ever need abortions. Legalized abortion just promotes such immoral behavior.

High rates of discrimination and poverty for blacks? Clearly socioeconomic conditions are just a liberal excuse for reverse racism. It can't be helped if blacks are just naturally stupid and violent; that's no reason for them to receive unfair advantages.

The premise of virtually every American conservative position is that if people are having problems it's because they didn't make the correct moral choices. It's why victim-blaming is so heavily tied into their politics. They see government intervention as rewarding bad behavior because the natural state of the world is for God/karma/the invisible hand of the free market to dole out justice. It's no coincidence that the GOP has become the fundamentalist Religious Right that it is today; you pretty much need to be highly religious or a devout follower of Randian ideology to keep such a worldview firmly locked into place.

Offline Whateverman

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 01:30:45 PM »
Myself, I think who she claims to be is much less important than what she says. 

Screw trying to show she is or isn't what she claims to be - is she saying anything truthful or insightful?
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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 01:47:45 PM »

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 02:34:43 PM »
Cupp's book, "Losing Our Religion: The Liberal Media's Attack on Christianity" appears to have pro-religious themes...

Quote
Cupp argues that what she characterizes as the liberal media is not only unreliable, irresponsible, and partisan, but they are also guilty of inciting a "revolution" that will destabilize and dilute Christian America. She also claims that The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, and Newsweek among others "mock, subvert, pervert, corrupt, debase, and extinguish" the Judeo-Christian ethic and back believers into a dark, irrelevant, morally void corner of American society.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Losing_Our_Religion:_The_Liberal_Media%27s_Attack_on_Christianity

IMO, seems an odd POV for an atheist.
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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 02:41:44 PM »
IMO, seems an odd POV for an atheist.
I agree. 

Is she saying anything worth considering?

EDIT: the point might be a bit subtle, but this questioning about whether she's actually an atheist or not is analogous to the No True Christian thang.  I think atheists (as represented on forums like this) reside on the intellectual high ground, which entails care in avoiding the same behaviors seen in moderate or fundamentalist theists.

I rarely concern myself with what a person claims to be, only what they've taken the time to say.  Cupp doesn't appear to be saying anything new or insightful, and that's why I reject her - I don't spend my time blathering about whether she's actually an atheist or not.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:48:43 PM by Whateverman »
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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 02:46:57 PM »
Is she saying anything worth considering?

------------------------------
"I'm envious of the faithful. So I defend the faithful, especially the Christian Right in America, at every opportunity I get."
"I haven't closed the door on faith. It just hasn't found me yet... I really aspire to be a person of faith one day."
"Today, I don't believe in God. But I'm open to being converted. I am!"
"I get the appeal of religion. I don't believe in God, but I'm not, like, mad at him."
"I'm not a militant atheist. I've never really understood the angry atheists."
"As an atheist, I could never imagine electing - voting for - an atheist President... Religion keeps a person who is endowed with so much power honest. [...] I represent 2% of the world. Why would I want someone who thinks that 98% of the world is crazy running the country?"
------------------------------

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 04:14:53 PM »
Since she doesn't trust atheists like herself, will any ol' believer do? Would she vote for a practictioner of Vodun or Santeria for president? A Scientologist? A Hindu? A Wiccan? A [shudder]Muslim? Are Mormons okay with her?

Or is she just really a Protestant Christian in atheist clothing?

I have to wonder when she say things like she defends the Christian Right, when they are the very folks who would burn her at the stake if they could.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 04:43:59 PM »
She's pretty much just another wall of the Republican echo chamber, no more special than the trained pet Democrats Fox News will occasionally trot out to decry everything the Democratic Party does as an attack on America/religion/marriage. Although I doubt there are many who get paid as much as she does such atheists actually aren't as rare as one might think. On the blogosphere the term faitheist was coined for such people who pander to religion and pat themselves on the back for not being mean, intolerant, and strident like those angry militant atheists.

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 09:48:39 PM »
She seems to be arguing for Christianity as a Straussian Noble Lie.  Traditionally, conservatives have valued cultural continuity, social adherence to a set of social norms or "eternal verities" that are necessary for the proper functioning of a society.  Thus they tend to distrust any sort of social innovation such as racial equality, women's liberation, the psychadelic experimentation of the '60's, etc.  In this view, religion is an essential bulwark of a proper, stable society even if its doctrines aren't actually true.  For the elite (hierarchy: another traditional conservative value), religion is a tool that fosters moral behavior, traditional values, and social cohesion among the common people.  It is a "Noble Lie" because, while not true in itself, widespread belief in it is necessary for the maintenance of a good and moral society.  If this is Ms. Cupp's approach, she could logically believe in Christianity without believing in Christ.   

However, if this is her view, I would like to ask her: have you ever considered the Egyptian pantheon?  The ancient Egyptians sought to achieve cultural stability, and they achieved it--for 3,000 years.  Compared to that, American Protestantism is still in diapers.  Egyptian theism produced the Pyramids and Luxor and Karnak and enough sublime art to fill museums around the world.  American Protestantism produced Touchdown Jesus and televangelism and Davey and Goliath.  So why doesn't your heart ache to believe in Amun-Re and chant incantations to Isis?
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Offline jedweber

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2012, 07:21:03 AM »
If the "Noble Lie" means a mythology used to unite and guide a people, then we have a perfectly serviceable secular version - the Constitution, glorification of the Founding Fathers, invocation of "freedom" and "liberty," etc.

I can understand an atheist respecting the social role played by Christianity in our history, but she takes it to a weird extreme, suggesting that atheists can't possibly be governed by principles higher than their own whims:

Quote
"I like that there is a check, OK? That there‘s a person in the office that doesn’t think he’s bigger than the state… I like religion being a check and knowing that my president goes home every night addressing someone above him and not thinking all the power resides right here… Atheists don’t have that."

Well, it would be weird if we assume she's a thinking person expressing her true beliefs. In fact, I think she's more focused on being a player in the "right-wing pundit" market, which circumscribes what she's allowed to say.

She can make atheism part of her "shtick," as a marketing hook that helps differentiate her from the rest of the herd.  (She can be the "hot right-wing female atheist," just like Michelle Malkin is the "hot right-wing Asian babe" or Ann Coulter the "hot right-wing woman tranny(?) who spews outrageously offensive sound bites.")  But Cupp's atheism doesn't seem to inform her views at all, so I think she's using it rather cynically. She's basically just telling Christian conservatives what they would hear from one of their own anyway, but it's supposed to gain credibility coming from one of the godless.

Plus, if her act ever starts to wear thin, she can get a second wind by announcing her "conversion" and going on TV to talk about the emptiness of her former atheist lifestyle and the new meaning she's found in Christianity, etc. In fact, I'd lay better than 50-50 odds on her "coming to Jesus" in the next few years...

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2012, 08:14:51 AM »
... The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, and Newsweek ...back believers into a dark, irrelevant, morally void corner of American society.


wtf does that even mean?

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2012, 09:18:45 AM »
/start conspiracy theory mode

My take? She is an actress in a plot to set up a "true conversion" by the Christian right.

Quote
"I haven't closed the door on faith. It just hasn't found me yet... I really aspire to be a person of faith one day."
"Today, I don't believe in God. But I'm open to being converted. I am!"
"I get the appeal of religion. I don't believe in God, but I'm not, like, mad at him."
"I'm not a militant atheist. I've never really understood the angry atheists."

Seriously, nearly everything she says about her "lack of faith" makes her sound like she's checking off items on a list.

"Let's see, have I mentioned something about being open for God's love today? Nope? I'd better mention that in the next segment."

She will be "converted", sell books, and the bible thumpers will claim victory exalting "See, if you godless heathens would just open yourselves up to Jesus' love you too could be saved!"

/end conspiracy theory mode
Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions implode, atheism is what is left behind

Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2012, 09:32:26 AM »
... The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, and Newsweek ...back believers into a dark, irrelevant, morally void corner of American society.


wtf does that even mean?

It means that since these papers papers don't fawn over religion and conservatives as the best ever...they are examples of the tyranny of not letting conservatives get everything they want.
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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2012, 10:20:40 AM »
Looking at it, she certainly stinks. Her views are too convenient. Plenty of atheists out there are the non-angry type, the kind who don't bother going out of their way to correct Christians and will even defend them, there are those who feel no political allegiance to liberalism and break the typical image of atheists in many other ways, but don't display that level of ignorance or self-loating of their own kind. Yes, I've heard an atheist say, "I think Richard Dawkins can be a bit of an arrogant dick", but not sit there demonising atheists as a whole or actively promoting Christianity, instead he understands the problems with Christianity and knows as an atheist that we can't be so generalised and that many of us make good points.

So I can think of 2 possibilities:
1) She's a complete fraud. Set up as part of the media to demonise atheist but have somebody to falsely claim authority.
2) She's an idiot. She probably comes from a Christian background but simply lacks faith, shares the same misconceptions and fallacies, but because she lacks faith she sees herself as 'one of us' therefore she able to talk about us with some authority.

I actually think #1 is the most likely. I mean, faith healings? Psychic readings? All they're doing is bullshitting people for money and for faith. They're basically magic shows. If you watch something like Derren Brown you'll see the parallels are amazing, except the difference here is: 1) Derren Brown is an atheist 2) He's honest about his tricks, he claims it to be psychological and not magic. 3) He demonstrates why religious magic shows are bullshit. 4) He show how he pulls off some of his material, even showing how point #3 works.

If people can actively deceive people in such a way to gain faith and/or money, even on national television, then why should this woman be no different. Obviously, I don't know if she is a fraud, but it seems very likely that she is. It sickens me that any kind of religious people have to be any kind of fraud or to purposefully mislead people. I mean, come on, if their way really is the way, then surely the truth should speak for itself. But I guess this is why we use the phrase, "lying for Jesus".

If she was genuinely an atheist, heck an atheist distant from regular atheists, you think she'd be able to relate to their lack of faith and have the ability to listen, understand and relate to other atheists. Many atheists don't have problems with the religion, many liberals don't want to destroy Christianity and for many it's not a fight of theism vs atheism. The main fight for liberals is not to destroy or suppress the religious, it is for bringing out a secular society based on secular laws with room for religious freedom and freedom for the irreligious. Granted there are atheists who would rather see religion disappear and I'd argue that the majority would rather use reason and not force to make that happen. "Liberal atheists are trying to destroy our religious values and are persecuting Christians" is the kind of argument I often hear from misinformed right wing Christians. We don't want to give political power to religion, because a religion can't represent the people of a country, because not only doesn't everybody belong to that specific religion, but not everybody belongs to the same sect of a particular religion. Case in point: gay marriage. Prevention of it is a Christian law, but not every Christians sect is opposed to gay marriage. So really, even having a Christian country with Christian laws manages to minimalise Christians who don't happen to belong to the favoured sects. This is why we should have secular laws and allow the religious their freedom of choice so long as it doesn't harm other people's freedoms. (A Christian doesn't have to get an abortion or marriage somebody of the same gender).

Interesting too, to the mind of a right-wing Christian a left-wing Christian can't possibly exist. So 'liberal' is synonymous with 'atheist'.

I realise this rant might have gone off on a tangent, so I'll try and bring it round again. If this woman is an atheist who sympathesises with the religious, she has nothing to worry about. AND if she and right-wing Christians REALLY are concern about how the liberal agenda affects them, then they need to focus those concerns. Instead of opposing other people's freedoms because you're worried it'll affect your own, how about you support them but stress that your freedoms remain in tact? Priests who don't want to marry a gay couple? Okay, instead of saying 'no' to gay marriage say, "I'll respect your freedoms, just be sure to respect mine". Yes, I realise it's still ignorant and bigoted of them, but I don't think it's right to change a person's beliefs with force.

But nope, it's people like that so-called atheist that would happily go out poisoning the minds of the many with ignorance so that progress cannot be made in bringing about a secular (and fairer) society and so progress cannot be made in bringing about civil liberties.



tl;dr? She's a fucking idiot. ;)
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Offline Aspie

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2012, 07:45:46 PM »
Looking at it, she certainly stinks. Her views are too convenient. Plenty of atheists out there are the non-angry type, the kind who don't bother going out of their way to correct Christians and will even defend them, there are those who feel no political allegiance to liberalism and break the typical image of atheists in many other ways, but don't display that level of ignorance or self-loating of their own kind. Yes, I've heard an atheist say, "I think Richard Dawkins can be a bit of an arrogant dick", but not sit there demonising atheists as a whole or actively promoting Christianity, instead he understands the problems with Christianity and knows as an atheist that we can't be so generalised and that many of us make good points.

That's the sad thing, too - the generalization doesn't even work without hyperbole on a cosmic scale. Richard Dawkins is considered to be the poster boy for angry, militant, strident atheists everywhere, yet all he did to earn his status as such was to write a book stating his opinion that religion is unnecessary; a book that ruffled the feathers of believers everywhere, despite the fact that most demonstrate not having even read the book when many were shocked to learn that Richard Dawkins is agnostic and took that as an indication of back-pedaling. But then it just goes to show that it wasn't the actual content of the book that incurred widespread outrage, it was the fact that an atheist dared to speak against the status quo. All that the overwrought angry and militant epithets convey is that in a world of believers the only good atheists are the ones who either bend knee to the dominant religions or hide away in shame. Hell, one only needs to look to the various atheist banner campaigns to realize that our very existence is offensive to many believers. Banners that say "Puppies Are Cute." and "Atheists." are among the many that are considered controversial and offensive.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2012, 08:31:17 PM »
Richard Dawkins is considered to be the poster boy for angry, militant, strident atheists everywhere, yet all he did to earn his status as such was to write a book stating his opinion that religion is unnecessary; a book that ruffled the feathers of believers everywhere, despite the fact that most demonstrate not having even read the book when many were shocked to learn that Richard Dawkins is agnostic and took that as an indication of back-pedaling.

In all honesty, I've never actually read any of his books and barely watched any videos with him in. This is why I really don't have much of a judgement of the guy. Stuff I've seen him talking in? He's just talking intelligently. I know, it's so odd, an atheist who doesn't read Dawkins.  :P I don't have a single book to do with atheism. My guess is, the title of the book was enough to spark people's imagination and provoke the. "Oh noes, he thinks we're all deluded, he must be hateful and arrogant." Having actually not read the book, it's hard for me to say exactly what was meant.

But it does remind me of the whole shit-storm of Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, a book about a fictional prophet of a fictional religion managed to offend people who never read his book and think it is an insult to the prophet Mohammad. It's possible Rushdie used Islam for inspiration, being an ex-Muslim after all, but I really think people should read things before they go off the wall and decide for themselves. It's why I tried to read Twilight before jumping on the bandwagon of saying how horrible it is. It was hard getting past the first chapter.  ;D Unfortunately, it seems many folk like to think in groups. Heck, I'm sure we're all guilty of that at some point, though obviously not to the level of outraged Christians...or heaven forbid, outraged militant Muslims calling for the death of the author[1].
 1. Guess they misunderstood Roland Barthes too
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Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline jetson

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2012, 08:48:48 PM »
Sep - I'm going to have to report you to the international board of atheists regarding your lack of having read at least one RD book.  I really wish I could let this slide, but...you know how it is.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Atheist" Pundit Keeps Bashing Atheists
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2012, 10:18:29 PM »

Richard Dawkins is considered to be the poster boy for angry, militant, strident atheists everywhere, yet all he did to earn his status as such was to write a book stating his opinion that religion is unnecessary

In order to be called:

"Militant Christians," they need to be setting up armed compunds and breaking the law

"Militant Islamics," they need to be shouting on streetcorners and/or possibly own a gun

"Militant Atheists," they need to to state their views without apologizing first.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.