Author Topic: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"  (Read 3089 times)

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Offline SwayzesGhost

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The website, Why Does God Hate Amputees has numerous arguments against the existence of the God of the Bible, although most are quite amateurish. Does the argument that God does not heal amputees provide the knockout punch to the possible existence of the God of the Bible, as claimed by Marshall Brain's website?

Marshall Brain, founder of "How Stuff Works" is also the author of an anti-Christian website, "Why Does God Hate Amputees," which has been renamed to "Why won't God heal amputees?" Brain's main point is that God does not (hence the "hate" title) or cannot heal amputees, presumably because He does not exist. Does this argument provide a valid case against the existence of God?


The premise of the argument is that amputees have never been healed and that all other "healings" throughout the history of mankind have really been due to natural, but rare, events. However, there is at least one healing of an amputee that has been recorded. When Jesus was being arrested prior to His trials, the disciple Peter took a sword and, missing the mark, sliced off the ear of the high priest's servant:

    And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)

Jesus responded by calling a halt to the violence and healing the man's ear. It should be noted that He did not pick up the severed piece of ear, but merely touched the stump to heal the man's ear. Although not quite as dramatic as replacing entire legs, it nonetheless represents a miracle that is beyond any possible naturalistic explanation, since humans cannot instantly (or even over time) regrow ears.


The common objection to his argument is that the Bible just made up this miracles, like all others it reports. Of course, this objection is offered without any proof of being correct. It is just assumed that the disciples would do anything, including lying, in order to propagate their lies. The funny thing about the assertion is that it directly contradicts the teachings of Jesus, which was fiercely against the hypocrites. So, the disciples are being accused of doing exactly what they preached against. Again, no evidence is offered that they ever did any such kind of lying. What they skeptics won't tell you is that there is actually evidence that directly contradicts this assertion. The problem with the idea that the disciples made up the miracles of Jesus is that the hostile witnesses of the time (the Jewish religious leadership) never denied that those miracles took place, but attributed them to the work of Satan.1 In his rebuttal to Jewish Celsus, Origen reported Celsus as saying Jesus had obtained His miraculous gifts while in Egypt (obviously by the power of sorcery).2 If the miracles of Jesus had been made-up, the Jews would have denied they ever happened, rather than attribute them to the work of the devil. It was, in fact, the miracles of Jesus that convinced a large number of people that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. So, the extra-biblical evidence actually supports the Bible's claim that Jesus performed numerous miracles, including the healing of an amputee.


Marshall Brain has designed an experiment to "prove" that God cannot heal amputees. The experiment goes something like this. Pick an amputee (must have both legs severed, just one would not be good enough), and have millions of Christians throughout the world pray for his healing. According to Brain, this proves that God does not exist. The main problem is that the experiment has never been done. So, in reality, Brain has proved nothing. Even if the experiment were to be run, there are some problems with its design. The first wrong assumption is that a large number of Christians are able to dictate to God what He should do. Healings do not necessarily require large numbers of people praying, since most recorded healings have involved just one prayer. The second wrong assumption is that God heals all who are prayed for. Even the Bible records examples of Christians - even apostles - who were not healed, despite prayer.3 The third wrong assumption is that every Christian has the gift to heal people. The Bible clearly says that this is not so.6 A fourth wrong assumption is that somebody can be found who is "deserving." According to the Bible, none of us is worthy of being saved.5 However, God, in His love, saves the undeserving through His mercy.4 God does not heal everybody of every infirmity in this life. I began working for my current boss in 1983 at the UCLA Inflammatory Bowel Disease Center. Within two years, I developed Crohn's Disease, the most severe form of Inflammatory Bowel Disease, which has no cure. I found myself unable to do things using my own abilities and strength. After two months of being bedridden in severe pain, I cried out to God, even though I was a deist at the time (I had gone from an agnostic atheist to a deist in college). Within three months all symptoms of Crohn's disease had disappeared. That was over 25 years ago, and no symptoms of the disease have ever reappeared. However, thousands of people have gone through our Inflammatory Bowel Disease clinics and not been cured. I am sure that most of those people have prayed to God, but are still suffering. For some reason, God chose to heal me, so that I would know that He was personally involved in the lives of people. God acts to produce eternal, spiritual outcomes, and not just temporal, physical changes.



The really ironic thing about Marshall Brain's experiment is that Jesus addresses it exactly opposite from what Brain says. Jesus says there are more important things than having limbs. In fact, He suggested that people amputate their limbs (or gouge out their eyes) if those parts helped them to sin:

    "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)
    "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)

The main thing that Mr. Brain has failed to understand is that this life is a mere short prequel to the life that is to come. Nobody is going to avoid all the discomforts or escape life intact. In fact, your destiny is death. If God healed everyone's illnesses, there would be no death. God wants to do more than just heal your physical bodies, which are temporary. God wants to heal your soul, which is eternal. God wants to make you perfect!7 However, God does not want to force anyone to act against his own will, so He give us choices. Agree to give up your "right" to sin and go along with God's plan, and He will reward you with a perfect soul in heaven.


I would have much more respect for Mr. Brain, if he would sign his name to his writings. Originally, he listed himself as author of the pages on his website. However, now, his name has disappeared for some reason. Be a man, Mr. Brain and stand up for what you believe!

The main question that needs to be asked is not why God hates amputees (which He doesn't), but why God loves Marshall Brain? As you can probably tell, I am not a great fan of Marshall Brain. However, God loves
him dearly8 and wants to spend eternity with him.9 I'm not quite there yet. However, if God can change the author of this article from an atheist into a believer, He can certainly do it for Mr. Brain. If you are a Christian, pray for Mr. Brain. Changing him into a lover of God would certainly be a miracle greater than replacing someone's legs.


Contrary to the claims of Marshall Brain, God already has healed amputees physically. The objection that the Bible just made up the healing miracles of Jesus was never put forth by the skeptics of Jesus' day because the people of the time had seen those miracles first hand. Mr. Brain's experiment to pick a "deserving" amputee and pray to have him healed has never been done. So, his conclusion that God would not ever heal an amputee remains untested. God will heal amputees and everybody else who wants to be healed spiritually, to receive perfect spiritual bodies in heaven.10 It's quite a deal, and a much better one than the alternative offered by Marshall Brain.11 Mr. Brain thinks that technology will solve all the world's problems. However, what technology is really good at is giving us "better" ways to kill each other and more free time to commit sin. No thanks, Mr. Brain. I prefer a place in which righteousness dwells.12


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http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_wont_god_heal_amputees.html]


Offline boobatuba

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 11:51:49 PM »
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Contrary to the claims of Marshall Brain, God already has healed amputees physically.

When? Evidence?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 11:56:41 PM »
The quote is from another site.  It does not belong to SG.  Though, if he does not agree with all its contents, then he should really add a comment or two of his own...
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Offline boobatuba

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 12:06:54 AM »
The quote is from another site.  It does not belong to SG.  Though, if he does not agree with all its contents, then he should really add a comment or two of his own...

I'm quite aware of that. That's why I didn't quote SG, but the article on the other site. I'm curious what evidence the author of that site would have for such a claim.

I also understand it's a rhetorical question since the author of the site isn't here to support his or her claims.

Agree, though, that SG should probably have commented instead of blind copying-and-pasting. That site has been around for quite a while and I've seen it before.

Offline SwayzesGhost

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 12:32:57 AM »
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Contrary to the claims of Marshall Brain, God already has healed amputees physically.

When? Evidence?

And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)


Right here

Offline boobatuba

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 12:40:43 AM »
And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)


Right here

Maybe you're a little rusty on what evidence is. Quoting a 2000-year-old book with no independent verification isn't going to cut it. That doggone circular logic is rearing its ugly head again.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 12:41:24 AM »
And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)


Right here

That's just a story.  If you want to use this story, then you have to provide evidence that it is factual.

It's also very telling that whenever the subject comes up, this is the one and only example that anyone can point to.  2,000 years, and god only has one example on record?  Not.  Very.  Impressive.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline SwayzesGhost

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 12:48:45 AM »
And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)


Right here

That's just a story.  If you want to use this story, then you have to provide evidence that it is factual.

It's also very telling that whenever the subject comes up, this is the one and only example that anyone can point to.  2,000 years, and god only has one example on record?  Not.  Very.  Impressive.



Claiming God doesn't heal amputees isn't factual either.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 12:53:05 AM »
Claiming God doesn't heal amputees isn't factual either.

In that case, provide an example of god's healing, which isn't in the bible.  This has to be a well-documented case, one where no alternative possibilties could be provided to explain things.
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Offline boobatuba

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 12:55:12 AM »
Claiming God doesn't heal amputees isn't factual either.

Yes, it is.

There's is no verifiable evidence that any amputee has ever grown back their severed limb.

There is plenty of verifiable evidence that many, many amputees, and others on their behalf, have desperately prayed for healing.

Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that god won't heal amputees. The most logical reason for that is that there is no god, but that isn't verifiable.

Offline SwayzesGhost

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 01:28:37 AM »

That's just a story.  If you want to use this story, then you have to provide evidence that it is factual.

Irrelevant.  The claim is the christian god does not heal amputees.  It was demonstrated otherwise with the verse.  If someone said why doesn't spiderman climb walls I could simply open a marvel comic and prove that he does. Story or not is irrelevant..

You also have  to prove  that God doesn't heal amputees. Oddly you don't take issue with supporting a non factual statement like this.. You also can't claim "well god doesn't exist". That itself would base the question on a false premise, and then doesn't qualify for a proper response.
 


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It's also very telling that whenever the subject comes up, this is the one and only example that anyone can point to.  2,000 years, and god only has one example on record?  Not.  Very.  Impressive.


So it would have been more impressive to record more bodily limbs being healed? Then you would have taken issue with how many limbs hes restoring and why he isn't doing it more frequently. The fact that their is only one healing of  a limb  in the bible would only attest to its rarity in occurrence.


People have their limbs saved all the time from dismemberment. Who's  to say that  this isn't Gods method  by preventing amputation. It would make more sense than healing someone who is already amputated. That would be a inconsistency in Gods character.   So maybe that victim prayed to have his arm or leg saved? Maybe that doctor prayed for the ability to heal, or save that victims limb.  If god did not save your leg in the first place from being amputated for whatever  reason, what reason is their to assume he will decide to restore it after the fact. 








Offline Aaron123

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 01:45:26 AM »
Irrelevant.  The claim is the christian god does not heal amputees.  It was demonstrated otherwise with the verse.  If someone said why doesn't spiderman climb walls I could simply open a marvel comic and prove that he does. Story or not is irrelevant..

Nobody claims that Spider-Man is a real-life person.

You're the one claiming that god is a real-life being.  Thus, it is relevant whenever the ear incident is "just a story" or not.


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You also have  to prove  that God doesn't heal amputees. Oddly you don't take issue with supporting a non factual statement like this.. You also can't claim "well god doesn't exist". That itself would base the question on a false premise, and then doesn't qualify for a proper response.


It's not up to me to prove that something does not happens.  You're the one that made the claim that god does heal amputees.  I'm still waiting for an example of such.



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So it would have been more impressive to record more bodily limbs being healed? Then you would have taken issue with how many limbs hes restoring and why he isn't doing it more frequently. The fact that their is only one healing of  a limb  in the bible would only attest to its rarity in occurrence.

I'm not looking for the amount (though that would help some!), but whenever such things can be verified.  Thus far, there is not one verified case of god healing an amputee.


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People have their limbs saved all the time from dismemberment. Who's  to say that  this isn't Gods method  by preventing amputation. It would make more sense than healing someone who is already amputated. That would be a inconsistency in Gods character.   So maybe that victim prayed to have his arm or leg saved?

Sounds like you're talking about luck or some other factor.  Again, you need to provide examples where divine intervention is the only possible explaination.  Right now, this sounds like you're trying to say "stuff happens, therefore; magic."


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Maybe that doctor prayed for the ability to heal, or save that victims limb. 


Or maybe this doctor used his years of medical schools into effects.  If you're going to suggust that god does stuff during surgery, then you need to demostrate how this can be detected.  Otherwise, it's just magical thinking.


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If god did not save your leg in the first place from being amputated for whatever  reason, what reason is their to assume he will decide to restore it after the fact.

So god won't heal amputees because he doesn't feel like it.

Gotcha.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline SwayzesGhost

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 02:34:55 AM »


It's not up to me to prove that something does not happens.  You're the one that made the claim that god does heal amputees.  I'm still waiting for an example of such.



I made no such claim.  I have no idea if God has actually healed amputees at all at some point in the last 2000 years.  Maybe  God did.. "so why won't god heal amputees" is not a statement of fact.




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Sounds like you're talking about luck or some other factor.  Again, you need to provide examples where divine intervention is the only possible explaination.  Right now, this sounds like you're trying to say "stuff happens, therefore; magic."


 
So wait. You believe in luck? Do you have evidence for luck? But you scoff at other people who believe their prayers answered as nothing more than ridiculous nonsense.








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IOr maybe this doctor used his years of medical schools into effects.  If you're going to suggust that god does stuff during surgery, then you need to demostrate how this can be detected.  Otherwise, it's just magical thinking.


So now no doctors pray? Can you verify this? Why is the doctor praying if he doesn't believe or think it will help?

No sir. I don't need to demonstrate anything here. If a doctor believes god is helping him in some way then that's all that matters.


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So god won't heal amputees because he doesn't feel like it.

God doesn't need to heal amputees  if he heals their limb from being amputated in the first place.  Seems like a simpler solution.  Why restore the leg after the fact?

Then you'd be asking.  "Why doesn't god just heal the leg? Why bother waiting till after its amputated? Wouldn't it be easier? So obviously god is not infallible cause he hesitates about healing limbs" Either way you would have a issue.




Offline oogabooga

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 03:56:32 AM »
Irrelevant. 
Actually, the fact that it's a story (Spider-Man or the Bible) is extremely relevant. Stories get written all of the time - most books in existence are fictional. Which means their plots, characters and events are not based on real life. I find that very relevant indeed since we're talking about something that's not happening in real life, not fiction.

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The claim is the christian god does not heal amputees.  It was demonstrated otherwise with the verse.  If someone said why doesn't spiderman climb walls I could simply open a marvel comic and prove that he does. Story or not is irrelevant..
If I say Avada Kedavra to you, you'll still be alive. No matter how many people say that and no matter how vehemently they wave sticks around, you won't die. But death directly caused by those words is clearly demonstrated in Harry Potter. There are detailed descriptions of various instances of people dying as a direct cause of the death curse performed by various people. Does that make it real? Does the existence of Spider-Man comics make Spider-Man real? The character is very real in a fictional world and extremely fictional in the real world. And the latter is something that's discussed on the web page and here. We're not discussing the literary worth of one specific book, we're dealing with your claim that its contents are accurate descriptions of real-life events. That has not been demonstrated so far.

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You also have  to prove  that God doesn't heal amputees. Oddly you don't take issue with supporting a non factual statement like this.. You also can't claim "well god doesn't exist". That itself would base the question on a false premise, and then doesn't qualify for a proper response.
Actually it's the person making the positive statement that bears the burden of evidence. Since there is no actual evidence of limbs growing back on amputees, it's perfectly valid to say it doesn't happen. There's also no evidence of children being able to fly on the back of domestic geese, therefore it's safe to say that Nils Holgersson didn't really fly on the back of one all across Sweden, regardless of how convincing Selma Lagerlöf was. Until you can provide evidence to back your claims we have every right (and as far as I'm concerned, even an obligation) to question your claims if you maintain that they're accurate and real.
 

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So it would have been more impressive to record more bodily limbs being healed? Then you would have taken issue with how many limbs hes restoring and why he isn't doing it more frequently. The fact that their is only one healing of  a limb  in the bible would only attest to its rarity in occurrence.
It would be extremely impressive and quite a compelling piece of evidence to record a limb growing back on an amputee. I for one would not take issue with the frequency of the occurrence. There are events that are simply extremely rare and I think most people would accept that. However, I would only consider it evidence for a miracle if it happened in real life, not an old book that has not been proven to be relevant - I'm not even talking beyond any reasonable doubt, the Bible you're using as evidence is so replete with contradictions and sheer nonsense, it's on par with Harry Potter when it comes to describing reality. It has dragons and witches in it, after all.

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People have their limbs saved all the time from dismemberment. Who's  to say that  this isn't Gods method  by preventing amputation. It would make more sense than healing someone who is already amputated. That would be a inconsistency in Gods character.   So maybe that victim prayed to have his arm or leg saved? Maybe that doctor prayed for the ability to heal, or save that victims limb.  If god did not save your leg in the first place from being amputated for whatever  reason, what reason is their to assume he will decide to restore it after the fact.
But the question (which is a metaphor for something else entirely) is not 'Why people don't have their limbs amputated all the time in cases where it should have happened but somehow didn't?' The question is why is god, if he really exists, either unwilling or incapable of performing such a puny miracle compared to what he supposedly did a few thousand years ago. If he really did create life and entire humans, creating a limb or an organ should be a piece of cake. Why isn't it? The same goes for everything that would take an actual miracle from god to occur. God doesn't seem to answer any substantial prayers. Why is that? Is he unwilling (and therefore either sadistic or he doesn't give a flying fuck about his own creation), incapable (and therefore far from omnipotent) or he simply doesn't exist. All of those options are completely valid and, lacking evidence to the contrary, the only possible ones. The author of the website chose the latter. So do most of us.


Let's move on ...

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I made no such claim.  I have no idea if God has actually healed amputees at all at some point in the last 2000 years.  Maybe  God did.. "so why won't god heal amputees" is not a statement of fact.
You made a claim that god does (or at least did) heal an amputee. You claim it's been documented in one particular book. So you made a positive statement. People here challenged it, demanding more evidence, because yours would need far more than a respirator, a gallon of adrenaline and a defibrillator to start breathing. Why won't god heal amputees is a question, not a statement.

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So wait. You believe in luck? Do you have evidence for luck? But you scoff at other people who believe their prayers answered as nothing more than ridiculous nonsense.
I for one don't believe in luck, precisely because there's no evidence for it. Now what? People can believe whatever they want, but there's no ignoring the fact that answered prayers occur just as often as pure chance. People have 'good luck' or 'bad luck' regardless of their faith. I'm willing to bet that there's the same percentage of atheists and/or people of other faiths who have escaped amputation as there are Christians. Which makes prayer irrelevant.

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So now no doctors pray? Can you verify this? Why is the doctor praying if he doesn't believe or think it will help?
Whether doctors pray or not has no bearing on the fact that they're using their knowledge and expertise, acquired through years of learning, practice and hard work, that yields results. Not prayer. There's absolutely no evidence that religious doctors perform better than non-religious ones or that Christian doctors perform better than doctors of other religions.

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No sir. I don't need to demonstrate anything here. If a doctor believes god is helping him in some way then that's all that matters.
Actually, you do have to demonstrate it. You made a statement and it's up to you to prove it, not up to us to disprove it. By stating that some doctors believe god is helping them you've only demonstrated that simple statement - that some doctors believe god is helping them. Now you and they need to prove that really is the case. At least find some statistical evidence that Christian doctors who pray perform better than others, have lower mortality and morbidity rates and higher percentages of cured patients.

Again, it is up to you to back up your claims.

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God doesn't need to heal amputees  if he heals their limb from being amputated in the first place.  Seems like a simpler solution.  Why restore the leg after the fact?
Why doesn't god save every believer from amputation, disease, distress and other maladies then? It really would be a simpler solution. Why aren't Christians healthier than people of other beliefs or no beliefs?

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Then you'd be asking.  "Why doesn't god just heal the leg? Why bother waiting till after its amputated? Wouldn't it be easier? So obviously god is not infallible cause he hesitates about healing limbs" Either way you would have a issue.
Exactly. God is either unwilling or incapable of such 'miracles'. And the mere fact that such miracles happen to people of other faiths and no faith as well (and as often) as to Christians, makes one thing that maybe god doesn't even exist. His chosen people should have certain privileges - you can't throw mountains into the sea by ordering them to do so (Mt 21:21-22 or Mk 11:24-25), you don't get everything you ask for (Jn 14:13-14), you can't perform the same miracles as Jesus did as he promised and so on. You can do exactly what everyone else can. Why is that?

So, you see, we do have an issue with the non-existent differences between Christians and everyone else, simply because Christians claim they can do so much more by simply praying. And yet they can't. Makes one pause, doesn't it?
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 06:19:28 AM »
And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)

Right here

There are three indepedent accounts of emperor Vespasian healing a blind guy.

The whole time you've been kissing Yahweh's ass, Vespasian has been getting madder and madder.

Three old books against 1, do the math, homeschool.

edit refies: See Dio Cassius, Tacitus.

Also, it will not take you much time to find a "proper Christian scholar" to tell you how to interpret it in a way that allows you to apply your logic successfully only to little baby jesus.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 06:23:50 AM by Ambassador Pony »
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2012, 06:45:36 AM »
Here we go again. 

SG - see this copy pasta, ha ha
Atheists: yeah, so what?
SG - prove god does not heal amputees, ha ha
Atheists: the burden is on you to prove he does, sorry
SG - I never said he does, ha ha

What a joke.

Offline Nick

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2012, 07:03:49 AM »
All the characters in the Jesus story were made up.  Just like the other god-man myths.  Mary, Jesus, disciples...all made up.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline HAL

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2012, 07:14:14 AM »
And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)

Uh, no ... that does not say anything about a new ear or regrowing an ear or re-attaching an ear. It simply says he was healed. The wound left by cutting off the ear was healed. Healing a wound is not the same thing as regrowing an appendage or organ.

It's also a vague sentence. It says -

"And one of them struck the slave of the high priest

and

cut off his right ear."

It doesn't say this -

"And one of them struck the slave of the high priest

which

cut off his right ear."


It could be interpreted as two strikes or wounds. The slave could have been struck once and also had the ear cut off. So Jesus cold have just healed the punch to the stomach or whatever the first strike did to the slave.

And this -

"And He touched his ear and healed him. "

Could very easily mean Jesus touched the man's other ear as a gesture (since he had the other ear cut off) and then healed the wounds he had.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 09:09:13 AM by HAL »

Offline Graybeard

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2012, 07:48:06 AM »
Quote
Contrary to the claims of Marshall Brain, God already has healed amputees physically.

When? Evidence?

And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)


Right here
Another case of misreading and putting your own interpretation on matters.
1. As has been said, this passage is also in a book that has the hero walk on water; we must therefore treat all claims with caution as the writers had reason to be biased and add things that were not true. (There are known examples of this.)
2. the passage says that "he healed him." We cannot know if this means, (i) "stopped the blood" or (ii) "made another ear grow." or (iii) "stuck the old ear back on."

However, a natural reading would put this similar to "A doctor healed the wound" - The doctor did not make anything grow; the body did that naturally - thus the first meaning (i) "stopped the blood" is by far the most likely.

I think that even a Bronze Age scribe would blush at writing, "And He made a new ear grow upon his head (in the right place.)" I don't think anyone would believe that. Most people in those days must have seen people with missing fingers, toes, etc., and they must have known that they never grow back... not even God can do that!
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Hatter23

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2012, 09:01:24 AM »
Quote
Contrary to the claims of Marshall Brain, God already has healed amputees physically.

When? Evidence?

And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)


Right here

Therefore Harry Potter exists and can do magic. After all, it too is in a book.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2012, 09:51:21 AM »
I made no such claim.  I have no idea if God has actually healed amputees at all at some point in the last 2000 years.  Maybe  God did.. "so why won't god heal amputees" is not a statement of fact.

You're the one that brought up the ear story as an example of god healing an amputee.

By the way, I'm still waiting for a real-life example of god healing an amputee.

 
Quote
So wait. You believe in luck? Do you have evidence for luck? But you scoff at other people who believe their prayers answered as nothing more than ridiculous nonsense.


I never said I believed in luck.  At least, not in the sense of "good things happens to me. Therefore; magic".  Sometimes, good things happens for you, and sometimes, bad things happens for you.  If you're going to claim that god caused good things to happen for you, then you need to demostrate how this can be determined.



Quote
So now no doctors pray? Can you verify this? Why is the doctor praying if he doesn't believe or think it will help?

I never claimed that no doctors prays.  But I did suggust that prayer has nothing to do with succuse of surgery.  Prayer is nothing more than a form of magical thinking.


Quote
No sir. I don't need to demonstrate anything here. If a doctor believes god is helping him in some way then that's all that matters.


Which would you rather have; a doctor that spent years and years in medical school, but spents no time whatsoever praying, or a doctor that never went to medical schools, but spents a lot of time praying?



Quote
God doesn't need to heal amputees  if he heals their limb from being amputated in the first place.  Seems like a simpler solution.  Why restore the leg after the fact?

Then you'd be asking.  "Why doesn't god just heal the leg? Why bother waiting till after its amputated? Wouldn't it be easier? So obviously god is not infallible cause he hesitates about healing limbs" Either way you would have a issue.

So you do agree that god can't be bothered to heal an amputee.

For someone that claims to be all-loving, he sure can be cold to some people.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2012, 10:58:22 AM »
The ear-example in bibles[1] also completely misses the point of the site's question, which has to do with Christian claims of present-day intercessory prayer.
 1. Which one is he using, again?
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Offline boobatuba

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2012, 11:05:21 AM »
Which one is he using, again?

The slave story in Luke 22. The old stand-by. As if healing an ear is the same as growing back an ear. Because the good book say so. Because it's good.


Offline Emily

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2012, 11:20:33 AM »
Quote
Contrary to the claims of Marshall Brain, God already has healed amputees physically.

When? Evidence?

And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:50-51)


Right here

Did Jesus restore the ear, or did the bible just fail to mention that jesus gave him a bandaid to clot the blood?

That's not really evidence of any sort. And even so why hasn't happened more frequently. Why did all the cooling 'healing' seem to stop when jesus 'died'?

I don't get it.

It's also very telling that whenever the subject comes up, this is the one and only example that anyone can point to.  2,000 years, and god only has one example on record?  Not.  Very.  Impressive.

Yeah. One out of a possible million or more isn't very impressive.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 11:29:40 AM by Emily »
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I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Online screwtape

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2012, 02:19:26 PM »
Irrelevant.  The claim is the christian god does not heal amputees.  It was demonstrated otherwise with the verse.

So if you make the claim "Zeus has never had human offspring" and I offer the story of Perseus, you would find that to be persuasive?



Could very easily mean Jesus touched the man's other ear as a gesture (since he had the other ear cut off) and then healed the wounds he had.

Or it could have been allegorical - like death for eve & adam didn't really mean death it meant spiritual death. So when jesus H touched his ear, it spiritually healed him, just like all the other shit jesus H was supposed to do for realzies but didn't so they had to make it spiritual.  Like establish a kingdom.  Oh, he didn't actually establish a kingdom?  Well, it must mean a metaphorical kingdom, or a heavenly kingdom, or a spiritual kingdom.  And isn't that what jesus H did?  Heal people spiritually?  Isn't that the language used over and over and over[1] in the NT?

I really believe apologists should be strangled to death publicly.




 1. and over and over and over ad infinitum
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2012, 02:23:49 PM »

I really believe apologists should be strangled to death publicly.

I hope you mean that metaphorically or spiritually, or what every caveat of get out of corner Du jour they might use. Literally, I even think Velkn might think that's a tad overboard.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2012, 02:27:05 PM »
spiritually, of course.
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Offline HAL

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »
Or it could have been allegorical - like death for eve & adam didn't really mean death it meant spiritual death. So when jesus H touched his ear, it spiritually healed him, just like all the other shit jesus H was supposed to do for realzies but didn't so they had to make it spiritual.

"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone cuts off your ear, turn to him the other also."

- Jesus

Offline fishjie

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Re: God and Science website addresses. "Why won't God heal amputees?"
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2012, 03:57:12 PM »
guys guys!

the bible said it so it must be true!

that means pi is equal to 3.    sun revolves around the earth.   world is only 8000 years old roughly.   and slavery is OK!