Author Topic: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.  (Read 1660 times)

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Online Azdgari

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2012, 03:31:56 PM »
I did not think my post was hostile or aggressive.

Apparently, any attempt to change anyone's mind about anything at all, is hostile and/or aggressive.  Or at least, not very peaceful.  It's just not something a peaceful person does.  What have you got against peace, Screw?  Geez.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2012, 03:36:42 PM »
The part I quoted does.  That's why I quoted it.  You invoked a dichotomy between trying to change peoples' minds, and being a peaceful person.  As if changing peoples' minds (which includes all instances of education)  was somehow violent.  Or at least, "non-peaceful".  Which is pretty much the definition of "violent".

That was unintended.  My use of the term peaceful mostly refers to inner peace.  Maybe a better term for me to have used for that quote would have been.... I really don't know... neutral???  Not really... agreeable, flexible?? I must admit teaching me mathematics would not require violence but heavy sedation would be helpful.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2012, 03:40:16 PM »
ps ^^ I also had no idea I was "invoking a dichtomy"  I didn't even know I had the power to do that. :P
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2012, 03:55:33 PM »
That was unintended.  My use of the term peaceful mostly refers to inner peace.

So changing the minds of others, which includes all forms of education, is done by people who lack inner peace.

Maybe a better term for me to have used for that quote would have been.... I really don't know... neutral???  Not really... agreeable, flexible?? I must admit teaching me mathematics would not require violence but heavy sedation would be helpful.

"Neutral" makes more sense.  But what are you trying to do in your exchanges on here?  You may not be arguing aggressively for a point of view, but isn't part of what you do an attempt to alter peoples' perceptions?
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2012, 04:05:49 PM »
I guess maybe I want to show that all people with Christian views are not stupid narrow/closed minded fundies.  Let me clarify my use of the term peaceful one more time - it refers to my own peace, not anyone else's. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2012, 04:47:31 PM »
I will try...  The most illogical/irrational/unreasonable aspect of my life does not involve religion - it is my significant other.  We are different in every way -- race, age, culture, language, education, socioeconomic background & status, his kids are adults, I have a 12 yr old, it's now a long distance relationship, so many things, when I met him he appeared to be the exact bad choice I had made many times before and I "didn't care" and "wasn't going to get attached", yet 9 years later he is one of the best choices I've ever made.  "On paper"  there is no reason our relationship should have gotten this far but it gets better every day. (Sorry about the mush!!!) And it does not feel like hard work, it feels effortless.

Nothing wrong with mush.

However..."On paper" there are plenty of reasons your relationship should have gotten this far (note that I'm assuming quite a bit here):

The two of you interact.
The two of you enjoy each other's company.
The two of you treat each other with the level of respect that you give and expect to receive.
The two of you express kindness to each other.
The two of you do not treat each other with disrespect.
The two of you do not emotionally abuse one another.
The two of you do not physically abuse each other.

I think you get the point.  While what you are feeling is emotional, each of those emotions occurs because of actions, words, and interactions in general with each other.  You can make rational conclusions as to *why* you are in this relationship.  The only alternative, I think, is for you to declare that your happiness in your relationship has *nothing* whatsoever to do with the actual person (their thoughts, their feelings, their habits, their likes, their dislikes, their personality) that is your significant other. 

I think an 'unreasonable' relationship would look something like this:
a) I want to be in love.
b) Part of being in love is having an emotional connection with another individual.
c) I have never met Zooey Deschanel.
d) Zooey and I are in love.

'd' is an unreasonable conclusion.  Now, if we change 'c' to:
c) Zooey and I exchange mushy affectations on a daily basis.

Then 'd' is something of a reasonable conclusion.  It may or may not be true (she may just be messing with me, taking advantage of me, or is far too genuinely nice of a person to not make mushy affectations).  But my conclusion at least has a piece of rationality behind it.  I suspect you can do the same analysis with your relationship.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2012, 05:02:28 PM »
I guess maybe I want to show that all people with Christian views are not stupid narrow/closed minded fundies.  Let me clarify my use of the term peaceful one more time - it refers to my own peace, not anyone else's.

I think many of the posters here get that not all people with Christian views are stupid narrow/close-minded fundies.

But...just because someone isn't stupid doesn't mean absolutely all of their beliefs are not stupid.  Smart people can believe stupid things.

I know many things defy logic and I don't care.  I do enjoy searching for answers because it is interesting.  I have no aim to convert anyone to what I believe; if everyone I conversed with believed the same thing that would be extremely boring. I don' t consider people who have opposite beliefs of mine, or unproven beliefs to be stupid.

Perhaps you don't care if there are many things that defy logic, but let me ask you this - do you care if the answers you are searching for are true and correct?  If so, how do you propose to evaluate the truth of an answer whilst throwing logic to the wind?  What other filter do you use to determine if the answer to the question "Why is the sky blue" stands a chance of actually being correct?

I do concur that if everyone believed the exact same things then many things in life would be extremely boring.  However, don't you think that there are some aspects of existence that, in order for a collective group of sentient entities to exist in harmony in, would need to be agreed upon in a consistent belief structure?  For example, do you think it is important for every human being to share the belief that actions have effects and repercussions upon other human beings capable of feeling joy and sorrow?  Would you find it irresponsible if we allowed for a small sect of people to simply believe that the universe is entirely solipsistic and that their actions have no effect on anyone else?  Would you be okay with trying to *not* convince a man on the top of a tall building that no, human beings cannot fly in a Superman-esque fashion?

I don't know where the line gets drawn - I struggle with that question often.  Who the hell am I to say that you shouldn't believe that there is a duplicate of Earth 750 light-years away?  But you sound like you don't think a line should be drawn at all, and I take exception to that.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2012, 09:07:34 PM »
I don't care why the sky is blue.
I think treating other people the way you wish to be treated pretty much covers how your actions effect others & whether or not you choose to convince a guy he can't fly.
I don't feel I have the right to decide what I want to allow someone else to believe.
I am not familiar with the word solipsistic. It is fun to say.  Solipsistic.
If someone's beliefs may cause harm to themself or others I may inform them of this if appropriate.  For example:  My patient believes she no longer needs to take her medication.  I know if she does not take her medication her medical conditions will not be controlled and she may die.  I will inform her of this without insulting her.  It is still her choice to take her medication or not.  My other patient believes she needs to take alot of extra supplements and vitamins.  She doesn't.  I have researched the supplements & vitamins she is taking and she isn't taking any herb or dosage that can hurt her.  She is not spending money she can't afford to spend.I do let her know these medications are not crucial to her med regime without insulting her.
I think a line should be drawn at calling other people's beliefs stupid.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2012, 09:58:36 PM »
I don't care why the sky is blue.
Well, then pick some other subject matter that you do care about.  How do you evaluate the truth-value of an answer without logic?
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I don't feel I have the right to decide what I want to allow someone else to believe.
Agreed.  If someone wants to believe something silly or stupid so be it.  If they want to ignore my argumentation against that belief they are free to do so.  And if an intelligent person wants to believe something that is stupid, they are still free to do so.
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I am not familiar with the word solipsistic. It is fun to say.  Solipsistic.
In short, belief in a fully subjective world.  A general idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism .
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If someone's beliefs may cause harm to themself or others I may inform them of this if appropriate.  For example:  My patient believes she no longer needs to take her medication.  I know if she does not take her medication her medical conditions will not be controlled and she may die.  I will inform her of this without insulting her.
And if it was her firm belief that ingestion of this medication will tarnish her moral character forever?  That acceptance of that medical treatment will damage her integrity, ruin her family's name, and tarnish the reputation of her children and her children's children?
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It is still her choice to take her medication or not.
Agreed.
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My other patient believes she needs to take alot of extra supplements and vitamins.  She doesn't.  I have researched the supplements & vitamins she is taking and she isn't taking any herb or dosage that can hurt her.  She is not spending money she can't afford to spend.I do let her know these medications are not crucial to her med regime without insulting her.
And giving her all the information that she can know in order to make an informed decision is probably about as far as you can really go.  Like you said, it is her call at the end of the day.
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I think a line should be drawn at calling other people's beliefs stupid.
Do you find that to be insulting for some reason?  Can you not believe that people can draw the distinction between 'being a stupid person' and 'having a belief that is stupid'?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012, 10:33:55 PM »

Well, then pick some other subject matter that you do care about.  How do you evaluate the truth-value of an answer without logic?
I guess the subjects where I need accuracy to be a factor would be medical issues which affect my patients, there I would rely on research, case studies, etc. found in reliable medical journals, or experiences I have had with other patients... I do compartmentalize,  I am much stricter on evidence when it comes to my job than when it comes to spiritual issues, I really can't explain why...

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And if it was her firm belief that ingestion of this medication will tarnish her moral character forever?  That acceptance of that medical treatment will damage her integrity, ruin her family's name, and tarnish the reputation of her children and her children's children?

This situation is very challenging... I would want to research to help this patient find alternative treatments that are acceptable to her belief system such as holistic medicine or meditation,  I am very open minded when it comes to complementary and alternative medicine... sometimes just releiving pain or stress which is accomplished with these types of treatments helps the body mend itself, naturally it will not cure cancer or grow back a limb but as far as lowering blood pressure or correcting dysthythmias I have seen results....

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I think a line should be drawn at calling other people's beliefs stupid.
Quote
Do you find that to be insulting for some reason?  Can you not believe that people can draw the distinction between 'being a stupid person' and 'having a belief that is stupid'?
When I was a child I had a close family friend who had Down's Syndrome, her sister & I got in many fights with people who called her stupid, that is just a word that I find objectionable
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline kcrady

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012, 10:49:46 PM »
I have to add...the child that grows up among adults worshiping a god, is taught that adults are the authority, and you are not to question them on this topic.  This is the adult Santa Claus, and it is difficult to escape the delusion.  The child is literally trapped in this pathetic system of fear and authority.

As I see it, one major problem atheists often have when confronting the wall of "wannabelieve" is to radically underestimate just how clever the Yahweh meme[1] is.  Comparing Yahweh to Santa is a bit of an apples-and-oranges situation, in that the two memes have very different survival strategies.

The Santa meme survives by flaring up for a few months (burning especially bright and monopolizing the most cognitive resources between November 25th and December 25th), then going dormant for the rest of the year.  This spares Santa from all but relatively half-hearted competition with Yahweh, as the carriers of the latter know that Santa will go away (for most of the year) if they just ignore him a little longer.  Interestingly, the Santa meme is spread and perpetuated and made plausible almost entirely by non-believers--adults who do not think that Santa actually exists.  When the child learns that Santa doesn't exist, hir relationship to the meme changes.  It goes dormant in hir mind until s/he is an adult with children of hir own, at which point it re-activates in its adult stage and causes the adult human to spawn new Santa-meme larvae in the minds of hir children.  Because of this, non-belief in the actual existence of Santa is not any impediment to the survival and spreading of the meme, so it does not need a permanent wall of anti-rationality as a defense.  Though it is difficult to find a more fiendish attack by an adult on the integrity of a child's mind than the famous article "Yes Virginia, There is a Santa Claus."

Yahweh takes a very different approach.  Yahweh is a monopolist, a memetic robber baron.  He wants nothing short of total world domination based on year-round control of every mind he can put his hooks into.  When a child or vulnerable would-be convert is initially infected with the Yahweh meme, the first thing that happens is that they're told Yahweh owns the sole patent and trademark on every conceivable superlative.  He's an omnimax who is supremely good and loving and beautiful and magnificent in every imaginable way.  This is deeply inculcated before anyone is ever given a Bible or Quran or Book of Mormon to read on their own.  Instead of being called by a name like Zeus or Isis or Odin or Gaia, he is given the generic big-G "God" as his moniker.  This smuggles in the idea that Yahweh owns a monopoly on divinity.  Like "the Sun," he's the only one.

By the time a person can start reading one of the holy books and perhaps encounter something absurd or repulsive, the mechanisms of cognitive bias are already in place.  "Well, this talking snake thing sounds kinda mythological, but it's God's Word, so it must be Satan taking the form of a snake, or maybe an allegory."  "Well, exterminating all these Canaanites sounds like something Hitler would do, but since this is Moses and Joshua obeying God, it must be because the Canaanites were just so utterly, completely horrible that it had to be done!"

Since Yahweh is the apotheosis of everything wonderful, to give up belief in him is to give up everything wonderful.  Yahweh creates motivation for cognitive biases by claiming monopoly ownership of just about everything worth having that isn't some kind of tangible good.[2]  Without Yahweh, there is no morality, no justice, no meaning or purpose to life, no membership in the community of believers, no decency, no good society, no real love, no hope for immortality.  Fundamentalism is the attempt (with limited success) by Yahweh to claim the credibility of science and factual truth (e.g. history).  Leave the fold, and you're cast out into a howling Lovecraftian wilderness of chaos, meaninglessness, and existential despair, a world where nothing is true, everything is permissible, and everybody might as well act like the guy in Grand Theft Auto.

Once all this is in place, there's no need to brainwash anyone into believing that the Cosmos is 6,000 years old or that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.  The believer's own ordinary human cognitive biases (agency detection, confirmation bias, and so on) will do all that legwork automatically.  Or, if belief in such things can no longer be clung to even as attire, then the victim's brain will swing into action looking for ways to cling to some form of Yahweh-belief that does not require those things--hence, "moderate" or "liberal" versions of the Abrahamic faiths.  The cost of losing Yahweh-belief is made so high that the human mind automatically takes extreme measures to protect it.  The same would be true of atheism if we really did get endless orgies, lots of money, and fun, fun, fun as membership benefits.  When believers say that atheists only disbelieve because we don't want there to be a "God" with all those dour rules we'd have to obey, they're projecting their own approach to belief onto us.  This is because motivated cognition (believing something because you want it to be true) has been inculcated as the way everybody decides what they believe.

To put it another way, believers aren't idiots,[3] they are the victims of an extremely sophisticated mind-virus that has evolved to exploit a wide array of flaws in the human system of consciousness.  Yahweh is not a foe to be underestimated.  When atheists react to the Yahweh meme as if it were a scientific proposal ("Uh--talking snakes?  Blowing down fortifications with trumpets?  Yeah, right.  You're an idiot.") their arrows shoot past the true stronghold of its power.  The Yahweh meme sucks as a description of how Universe actually works, but it is stupendous at generating cognitive bias in its favor.  Even if Jesus isn't the Son of God with power, he is still the best, wisest, most loving and noble human ever, right?

Only two things have ever proven to be genuine threats to the existence of a Yahweh meme: other Yahweh memes,[4] and fossil-fuel powered modern economic prosperity, especially in the form of European-style welfare states.  The former wield the same arsenal of cognitive biases, along with plain ol' brute force; the latter undermines Yahweh's claim to monopoly ownership of peace, justice, life worth living, etc..
 1. Here I am including all of the mutant variants of the Abrahamic deity, Jewish, Christian, Islamic, and Mormon under the name "Yahweh."
 2. Because with tangible goods, he would actually have to deliver.
 3. Well, yes, there are idiotic believers, but there are also idiotic non-believers.
 4. E.g., Islam's replacement of Christianity in the Middle East, the spread of Mormonism.
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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2012, 05:20:47 AM »
I think the problem religious believers have is that they allow their desire for emotional comfort to override their reason. They are insecure enough to want the comforting promises of their religion to be true and they are gullible enough to believe them. They will wilfully ignore evidence or arguments that may threaten their comforting beliefs.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2012, 11:18:48 AM »
I guess the subjects where I need accuracy to be a factor would be medical issues which affect my patients, there I would rely on research, case studies, etc. found in reliable medical journals, or experiences I have had with other patients... I do compartmentalize,  I am much stricter on evidence when it comes to my job than when it comes to spiritual issues, I really can't explain why...
In part, you compartmentalize to be pragmatic.  It's difficult to successfully do your job and to do it well without strict adherence to evidence-based thinking.  It's less difficult for spiritual issues because, often times, there are no immediate consequences to things like 'belief in a soul' that would prevent you from functioning.
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This situation is very challenging... I would want to research to help this patient find alternative treatments that are acceptable to her belief system such as holistic medicine or meditation,  I am very open minded when it comes to complementary and alternative medicine... sometimes just releiving pain or stress which is accomplished with these types of treatments helps the body mend itself, naturally it will not cure cancer or grow back a limb but as far as lowering blood pressure or correcting dysthythmias I have seen results....
Being open minded to alternative medicine can be *dangerous*.  The old joke:
Q) What do you call alternative medicine that works?
A) Medicine.

If you've seen results from alternative medicines...great.  Those alternative medicines and treatments should be scrutinized to determine what the mode of efficacy is so that we can understand it and potentially improve upon it.  If your experience tells you that some of the non-standard treatments ill-supported by evidence by the medical community at large, you should not dismiss it outright.  Just don't forget to keep a healthy dose of skepticism - if the rest of the scientific and medical community has establish a basis of evidence that points to no efficacy, then you should, at least, be skeptical that the treatment is *really* doing what you think it is doing.
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Do you find that to be insulting for some reason?  Can you not believe that people can draw the distinction between 'being a stupid person' and 'having a belief that is stupid'?
When I was a child I had a close family friend who had Down's Syndrome, her sister & I got in many fights with people who called her stupid, that is just a word that I find objectionable

Perhaps it's a question of semantics then.  I'll concede that in society at large right now, many people associate 'being stupid' with 'having a stupid idea' and I guess I can see that as insulting.  But that does bug me, because we as human beings are very much bound to have at least *some* stupid ideas and I'd find it *disrespectful* to me if I held a stupid idea and you (or anyone else) didn't call me out on it.  How am I supposed to learn otherwise?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2012, 11:50:04 AM »
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then you should, at least, be skeptical that the treatment is *really* doing what you think it is doing.

If my patient's blood pressure was 160/90 and now is 110/70, his heart rhythm was afib and now is sinus rhythm, I don't care whether it is the treatment, prayer, coincidence or fairies as long as he is improving and continues to stay stable.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2012, 11:52:53 AM »
The "continues" part critcally depends on you knowing what it is that's going right.  Otherwise, you won't know how to continue it.  That's why it's important to know what's going on, rather than just being grateful for a momentary improvement.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2012, 11:59:57 AM »
That would depend on how much testing the patient prefers or is able to be subject to.  That can be problematic at times in patients with impaired mobility or an inadequate support system.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2012, 12:34:56 PM »
Sorry, I thought I responded to this earlier, but for some reason, it did not post.

it is my significant other.

That's not really what I had in mind.  I do not think relationships defy reason or logic either.  There are reasons why you are together. 



I don't care why the sky is blue.

That's too bad. Apathy for knowledge is a problem, particularly amongst the religious.

I don't feel I have the right to decide what I want to allow someone else to believe.

I'm on the fence on that.  People act on their beliefs, so beliefs matter.  A significant portion of the population is not getting their kids immunized because they believe it causes autism.  Their stupid beliefs threaten the health of everyone in society.  So, I am not exactly sure I don’t have the right to tell them what to believe. Rather, I doubt they have the right to act on that stupid belief.

 
I think a line should be drawn at calling other people's beliefs stupid.

Stupid beliefs should be called stupid.  If I believed vampires were the cause of global warming, that would indeed be a stupid belief.  And it should be called stupid.



I do compartmentalize,  I am much stricter on evidence when it comes to my job than when it comes to spiritual issues, I really can't explain why...

You should figure that out.  It is a bad habit.  I would think you would want to believe true things, whether it is about your "spiritual issues" or your job.  You have opened yourself up to be suseptible to wrong spiritual beliefs, which could have eternal consequences.


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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2012, 01:34:47 PM »
Posted by: screwtape
« on: Today at 12:34:56 PM
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You have opened yourself up to be suseptible to wrong spiritual beliefs, which could have eternal consequences.
But if you don't believe in life after death how can you say my beliefs can have eternal consequences according to your worldview?  To me "truth" and accuracy is much more important when treating a medical condition which could be a life or death matter than when dealing with a god who may or may not exist.  (I don't know if you noticed but one of your fellow forum members has labled me "bi-curious" when it comes to atheism which is a label I do not mind accepting)  I don't not demand absolute proof when it comes to theism because I don't consider it a life or death matter.  That is why I joke and troll I get annoyed when people get so snarky.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2012, 02:29:24 PM »
Posted by: screwtape
« on: Today at 12:34:56 PM
Quote
You have opened yourself up to be suseptible to wrong spiritual beliefs, which could have eternal consequences.
But if you don't believe in life after death how can you say my beliefs can have eternal consequences according to your worldview?  To me "truth" and accuracy is much more important when treating a medical condition which could be a life or death matter than when dealing with a god who may or may not exist.  (I don't know if you noticed but one of your fellow forum members has labled me "bi-curious" when it comes to atheism which is a label I do not mind accepting)  I don't not demand absolute proof when it comes to theism because I don't consider it a life or death matter.  That is why I joke and troll I get annoyed when people get so snarky.

The woman who needs an abortion to save her life would consider theism to be a matter of life and death.
That guy on death row in a foreign country because he said something unflattering about a deity?  Probably considers it a life and death matter.
All the people who would potentially benefit from stem cell research would consider a life and death matter.
11 year old Madeline Kara Neumann would probably consider it a life and death matter if she wasn't already dead via faith.

Yes, I recognize these are extreme cases, but you have to realize:
a) This crap happens a lot in this world.  Today, right now, as I type this sentence, there is a pretty good chance that someone just killed someone else in the name of some belief.
b) This is the problem with selectively deciding when truth and fact are important - you, me, and everyone else cannot predict with certainty when a 'harmless lie' will become a 'harmful lie'.  The power of truth stems largely from the fact that truth is not situational in nature - what's true is true is true is true.
c) In all of the above cases, the belief of the potential victim is irrelevant - it is the beliefs of others that creates the life or death situation.  In the case of Madeline Kara Neumann, the situation of death became a reality for her because of her parents' and their congregations false beliefs.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2012, 03:20:47 PM »
But if you don't believe in life after death how can you say my beliefs can have eternal consequences according to your worldview?

From my perspective, I don't say that.  I said they "could", meaning, speaking from the perspective of someone who does believe that stuff.  Under the hypothetical circumstance that those things are real, you are at risk because you are not being very rigorous or taking them very seriously. 

To me "truth" and accuracy is much more important when treating a medical condition which could be a life or death matter than when dealing with a god who may or may not exist.

If I believed in eternal souls and all that jazz, because it concerns the rest of my infinite life, and not the infinitely small moment I spend in this flesh suit, I would be much more worried about the accuracy of my beliefs about the afterlife.

(I don't know if you noticed but one of your fellow forum members has labled me "bi-curious" when it comes to atheism which is a label I do not mind accepting)

Yes, I saw that.  I thought it was a charming way to put it.

I don't not demand absolute proof when it comes to theism because I don't consider it a life or death matter.

But don't you see, it is more than a life or death matter.  If you believe in an afterlife, with a soul that lives on forever, you will spend an infinitely longer period of time in that state than you will spend alive on earth.  So that should make it infinitely more important. 

It seems to me all this supernatural belief you have is something you do not take very seriously and seem to do for fun or out of boredom.  That's okay, I suppose.  But to me, it is all or nothing.

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Offline muchlove

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2012, 02:18:53 AM »
I don't not demand absolute proof when it comes to theism because I don't consider it a life or death matter.

Interesting...I tend to agree with Screwtape, it sounds as if you really don't believe, or take it very seriously.  I think Jesus took it pretty seriously.  I think the disciples took it pretty seriously.  They all were willing to die (many did) for it according to the biblical accounts and church tradition.  It seems to me, that it is not so important to you, and I think Jesus would probably see it a little differently (you do claim to be a Christian, correct?).  Sounds like you're "testing the waters" more than an actual follower of Christ, is that a fair statement?

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2012, 02:40:17 AM »
I don't not demand absolute proof when it comes to theism because I don't consider it a life or death matter.

Interesting...I tend to agree with Screwtape, it sounds as if you really don't believe, or take it very seriously.  I think Jesus took it pretty seriously.  I think the disciples took it pretty seriously.  They all were willing to die (many did) for it according to the biblical accounts and church tradition.  It seems to me, that it is not so important to you, and I think Jesus would probably see it a little differently (you do claim to be a Christian, correct?).  Sounds like you're "testing the waters" more than an actual follower of Christ, is that a fair statement?
When I say I don't demand proof I mean I don't require a poloroid of Christ to believe he existed.  To me following Christ means action -- using the talents and resources I have been given to serve others.  I follow his example rather than the doctrines attributed to him.  I have major issues with the bible -- ask any informed atheist -- they will point out the inconsistencies.  I have issues with god -- a lot of genocide, vengeance and generally bad mojo.  I can have faith in what I don't see; I don't mind the concept of miracles and magic.  I'm not sold on the eternal life part.  I am 100% guilty of being a cherry picker.  When I come on a forum it's to get exposed to additional ideas, not to trash my faith or anyone elses. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2012, 09:25:09 PM »
When I say I don't demand proof I mean I don't require a poloroid of Christ to believe he existed.
Do you require *any* amount of proof or evidence to believe that he existed?  If so, what type of proof or evidence convinced you that he did exist?
Quote
To me following Christ means action -- using the talents and resources I have been given to serve others.  I follow his example rather than the doctrines attributed to him.
But isn't *all* that you have doctrine regarding his alleged actions (and status as the one true god of all of existence)?
Quote
I have major issues with the bible -- ask any informed atheist -- they will point out the inconsistencies.  I have issues with god -- a lot of genocide, vengeance and generally bad mojo.  I can have faith in what I don't see; I don't mind the concept of miracles and magic.
How do you decide what to have faith in?  Why Christ and not Mohammad or Vishnu or Xenu or the Raeliens or Nature?  How do you define 'miracles' and 'magic'?  Do you mean to say that 'miracles' and 'magic' manifest themselves in the real world?
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I'm not sold on the eternal life part.
Why not?  Why is faith insufficient here but sufficient for belief in the existence of an all-powerful deity's Man-Son?
Quote
I am 100% guilty of being a cherry picker.  When I come on a forum it's to get exposed to additional ideas, not to trash my faith or anyone elses.
Do you not find any problems with arbitrary cherry picking?  If it's not arbitrary, what is the filter?
When being exposed to additional ideas, what is your goal?  Is it to test your existing ideas against the additional ideas to give yourself a better picture of reality?  Is it to simply collect ideas to look at and go 'isn't that special'?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2012, 03:07:02 AM »
I really don't feel like defending every sentence I write to you people.  I seriously doubt that what I do or don't believe and why will have any effect on your life.  I understand why you conclude there is no god.  I have not tried to convince anyone that there is because I respect your right to your beliefs.  If you have any more questions for me I will be chilling in the Shelter.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 03:33:14 AM by LoriPinkAngel »
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2012, 08:22:43 AM »
I seriously doubt that what I do or don't believe and why will have any effect on your life. 

Maybe.  But if so, that is specific to you and your particular beliefs.  Other religious people actually take their beliefs seriously and act on them.  Their beliefs have an effect on many people's lives and they can be supremely dangerous. 

Do you agree with that?


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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2012, 10:15:58 AM »
I really don't feel like defending every sentence I write to you people.  I seriously doubt that what I do or don't believe and why will have any effect on your life.  I understand why you conclude there is no god.  I have not tried to convince anyone that there is because I respect your right to your beliefs.  If you have any more questions for me I will be chilling in the Shelter.

I'm sorry if you feel the need to be defensive, but you really don't need to.  If you don't want to answer my questions regarding your statements, that's your prerogative.  If you don't have an answer to some of the questions posed to you it's totally okay to admit so.  I'm just looking for clarity into what you believe, but you're not under any obligation to me to try to answer questions - I'm just asking them because those would be some of the questions I'd ask myself while considering the viewpoints you put forward.

If you really are interested in your own beliefs, and willing to examine your own beliefs, then you're going to eventually have to answer these questions to yourself.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2012, 06:07:36 PM »
sooooooooo....

on another note (this seems to happen every sunday when people get out of church) I had a One True Christian tell me that Adam and Eve actually did have knowledge of good and evil before the eating of the fruit. Of course this wasnt in the book, rather something that was revealed to her by believing. And apparently I couldnt get it because I dont believe it.

Would that be special pleading on behalf of A&E in order to make the original sin story somehow stick? Or is it just outright dishonesty? Has anyone ever come across someone unwilling to admit that A&E didnt have knowledge of good and evil before the fruit?

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2012, 10:34:11 PM »
sooooooooo....

If theists were rational, they wouldn't be theists.
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Offline muchlove

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Re: Compartmentalizing and Special Pleading.
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2012, 01:08:57 AM »
When I say I don't demand proof I mean I don't require a poloroid of Christ to believe he existed.  To me following Christ means action -- using the talents and resources I have been given to serve others.  I follow his example rather than the doctrines attributed to him.  I have major issues with the bible -- ask any informed atheist -- they will point out the inconsistencies.  I have issues with god -- a lot of genocide, vengeance and generally bad mojo.  I can have faith in what I don't see; I don't mind the concept of miracles and magic.  I'm not sold on the eternal life part.  I am 100% guilty of being a cherry picker.  When I come on a forum it's to get exposed to additional ideas, not to trash my faith or anyone elses.

Lori, I didn't ask about proof, you must be speaking of someone else's post.  I simply wanted to feel out what it is that you do believe or do not believe.  I thank you for your honesty, this sounds very sincere and paints a better picture for me of where you are at.