Author Topic: roots, bloody roots.  (Read 544 times)

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Offline none

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roots, bloody roots.
« on: July 07, 2012, 08:41:15 PM »
has the written word surpassed the spoken word of your heritage?
what say you of your heritage being one with your brother and sister, is it gone?
what am I to your words?

Offline Timo

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 09:47:49 PM »
I don't even know what you're talking about.
Nah son...

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 10:05:12 PM »
I don't even know what you're talking about.
did you learn what your heritage is from a brochure?

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 10:10:17 PM »
Good sepultura album, but i liked chaos AD better?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 10:17:47 PM »
no what I am saying is the reality of heritage is lost due to the written word overriding the spoken work that children hear from their elders.
not limited to our current time but in the time when writing made a difference in transmission of fact.

Offline Timo

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 10:18:18 PM »
I don't even know what you're talking about.
did you learn what your heritage is from a brochure?

Yes.  I learned my heritage from a brochure.

No, really?  What are you talking about? 

I grew up listening to cats like Chuck D and Q-Tip,  And I grew up reading cats like James Baldwin and Ralph Ellison.  Are you asking me to choose who was more effective in conveying my blackness?
Nah son...

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 10:21:44 PM »
I don't even know what you're talking about.
did you learn what your heritage is from a brochure?

Yes.  I learned my heritage from a brochure.

No, really?  What are you talking about? 

I grew up listening to cats like Chuck D and Q-Tip,  And I grew up reading cats like James Baldwin and Ralph Ellison.  Are you asking me to choose who was more effective in conveying my blackness?
I don't know your heritage, all I know is that all suffer a loss in this area.

Offline Emily

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 10:26:56 PM »
Timo is probably black. So his ancestors were black. Am I right, Timo?

My heritage is that I'm white. My heritage can be traced to Irish and French immigrants. I'm not too sure when they crossed the pond, but here I am. I'd like to know more about my heritage and my ancestor's lives in both Ireland and France, but sadly I might never be able to trace it. 
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 10:35:12 PM »
Timo is probably black. So his ancestors were black. Am I right, Timo?

My heritage is that I'm white. My heritage can be traced to Irish and French immigrants. I'm not too sure when they crossed the pond, but here I am. I'd like to know more about my heritage and my ancestor's lives in both Ireland and France, but sadly I might never be able to trace it.
some deny this sadness and forget humanity IMO.
and IMO this absence of humanity gives rise to the division in humanity: whether it be religious, sexual, racial, or economic.

Offline Timo

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 10:44:00 PM »
@Emily

No! 

My heritage is mostly black...as in African...technically...but, for the most part, I descend from the black people that were enslaved in Puerto Rico and Cuba and so a lot of my ancestors, like both of my grandfathers don't really count as black to hear some people tell it.  After all, they spoke Spanish as their first language.  I grew up feeling like maybe I wasn't really black because I knew who Celia Cruz was.  Really, it can be weird to grow up in a place like California where there are so many tensions between blacks and Mexicans that don't exactly map well on to your experiences if you or your family is from...fucking any other part of South or Central America or the Caribbean.
Nah son...

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 10:48:46 PM »
IMO this illustrates my point....
"first language", were is and what is the first language?

Offline shnozzola

Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 07:49:05 PM »
I believe my family has done a pretty good job of passing on our heritage with the stories of ancestors and their lifestyles.  It is Mennonite/ German/ Swiss  farmer with Pennsylvania Dutch language sprinkled throughout the stories – but something much more important IMO – our extended family has raised us to realize our heritage does not separate us from other heritages – and that has allowed me to marry a black South African woman who fits well into our family, and my practicing of the clicks in her language are no less important than her being able to say  - poohdossi , the Pennsylvania Dutch word for fart.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 07:54:53 PM by shnozzola »
“I wanna go ice fishing on Europa, and see if something swims up to the camera lens and licks it.”- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 02:44:39 PM »
clicky clack = fart?

Offline Kimberly

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 09:34:06 PM »
I consider myself a mutt. I'm pretty sure I don't have any heritage that means much of anything in any recent lineage. I don't have the resources to track my heritage, and furthermore I don't feel any sort of obligation or since of urgency to find out. I'm sure someone somewhere in my ancestry was a giant douche, and I'm sure someone somewhere did something noteworthy. My point is that my family didn't value it's blood line enough to pass down that information. Not in written or verbal form, if it wasn't important enough to them and doesn't affect my life or my future then I'm sorry but I just don't have time to care. Maybe when I win the lottery or retire I will have time to care. Assuming I develop enough curiosity, which is unlikely. For the most part my dad is non existent in my life so his blood line means nada to me. My mom is non existent in my life so her blood line means nada to me. I'm here because two terrible people decided to procreate. I think that's enough of a history lesson for me.

Think of it like this. If I was adopted and had no clue who my sperm and egg donors were I personally wouldn't invest much interest in my heritage either.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 10:11:56 PM »
sounds like you know enough of your heritage to dislike it.
maybe I am a dreamer and want to reunite with the peoples who sought to fight the spread of christianity from within eroupe and within north america and lost the fight for the most part and were assimilated into the culture,
I guess I am a product of blowback that the church didn't anticipate, or couldn't eradicate.. ( thanks to the french?? )
It would be nice to know there are others out there who realize such a heritage is not lost and was not lost into the books of christianity.
the next plague I see coming is Islam, I hope that secular education is the thing that will win the war that is brewing.
but this is just my opinion...

Offline on:bread:alone

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2012, 10:31:29 PM »
predominantly scottish, as well as irish, scandanavian, and a touch of native blackfoot, which is an off-shoot of the cherokee tribe. i try to stay as involved as i can with my heritage. my family belongs to the scottish clan hamilton, and we subscribe to their circular as well as partake in their proceedings at the dunedin highlander games here in florida once a year. i've learned more from written word than spoken, but that's because a good deal of my immediate ancestors are dead, and the wide spread lineage is based in scotland. however, when we do attend the games (and various other clan hamilton functions as they come about), i do my best to ask as many questions as possible of the other members.

i think each (word of mouth and print) serve their own purpose and are important in their own ways. i don't know if this is exactly the variety of response that you're interested in, but it's what i felt compelled to contribute.
i'm a street-walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm.

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Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2012, 10:56:51 PM »
thank you for contributing.
it means that I have reached "the masses" or at least one that I can hopefully discuss of what I would consider a native people.
that native people being the blackfoot.
I don't want to isolate or do I intend to isolate those native peoples of eastern/western europe nor the other indigenous people of other regions of which I can think of is of the eastern continents, but I am unfamiliar with those cultures...
I am aware of pre-christian influence in the native american tribes in north america, but I am of the belief that these people specifically didn't have what is now considered a religious belief.
what I am saying is that the perception that mother earth and father sky and respect for both and the living things that compose the two maybe very meaningful but it is unlike the theistic beliefs that have been written by the non native "believers" and the native beliefs were assimilated and illustrated in the non-native filtered words of the non-native peoples to be turned into what is called a religion when in fact it is not.
and to ramble on a bit more, I see beauty in the sky and the earth and the living things, but this does not mean I don't appreciate the mortality of the living things that dwell within the reality I perceive and this in and of itself is not a religious belief and I think that the most primal peoples may have shared these same beliefs... but somewhere this obvious conclusion was disturbed.... probably through fear given the nature of the religions I have briefly looked at long enough to hold my attention...
well there you go...

Offline on:bread:alone

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2012, 11:07:13 PM »
to my understanding, the blackfoot system of faith is based more off in "spitritual harmony" and co-existence with one's environment than any sort of religious doctrine. its obviously based in the supernatural, but not-so-much deistic. but, i really don't know all that much about it, and those family members from whom i might have learned have long-since passed... at a time in my childhood where questioning the existence of god(s) took a serious backseat to my full conviction that santa clause was very much real. at that age, i swallowed everything my parents fed me.

be that as it is, i feel that i should probe the matter deeper, so thank you for the motivation to figure it out.
i'm a street-walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm.

please, check out www.letsgetrational.com

Offline boobatuba

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2012, 11:30:19 PM »
My heritage is Ponca Indian (I'm 1/4 from my paternal grandmother).

Although I still attend Powwow each summer, I do feel a gap between my current life and the rich history of my ancestors through the loss of their language. There are only an estimated 60 speakers of Omaha-Ponca and all of those are over the age of 60. In other words, the native language of my ancestors will be lost within my lifetime. It saddens me deeply.

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2012, 11:57:26 PM »
@on:bread:alone
no problem... sometimes I blurt... online...
it would be interesting if I return with something more cohesive to add to the conversation, until then I will hope to lurk.
@boobatuba
it sounds like you understand the value of life as illustrated by noting the age of the elders in your tribe.
do you have any input as to what is and are the "spiritual" aspects of native american beliefs that your elders may have..??
I must note that my ties with my native culture are very distant this is why I am inquiring in such a public place.

Offline boobatuba

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2012, 12:08:58 AM »
@boobatuba
it sounds like you understand the value of life as illustrated by noting the age of the elders in your tribe.
do you have any input as to what is and are the "spiritual" aspects of native american beliefs that your elders may have..??
I must note that my ties with my native culture are very distant this is why I am inquiring in such a public place.

I was very fortunate to have been able to spend a lot of time with my Indian grandmother when I was young. She lived in the same city and ran an A&W drive in, so I had lots of incentive (as a kid) to visit!

She taught me about getting myself "in tune" with nature. She told me stories that her father, mother, and grandparents had told her about the early days of the "great migration" to the Oklahoma territories. I don't think that words can adequately express how painful it was for those people to be forced from the lands with which they had such a symbiotic relationship. The Ponca indians had it particularly rough when they were denied lands they were promised and forced to Oklahoma where they very nearly died out from famine and disease.

I'm getting older these days (turn 46 on Thursday) and I have to admit many of those memories are fading from my mind. I don't have much direct information to offer you on spiritual matters of the tribal elders, but I do know that my grandmother attended a Baptist church in Oklahoma City for as long as I remember until she died. The unfortunate reality is that most native peoples, at least around here, have fully assimilated into the culture.

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 12:18:04 AM »
I don't know how to express my disdain for this foreign culture.
I challenge it when I can, when I am sure my voice will be heard and not overturned by numbers or idiocy.
it is very difficult to live in this society, it closes from almost every side....
seek jesus... seek allah.
I hurt and this is natural, that is why and how I know pleasure.
to minimize my pain and give it away to something that is not me I don't want to relate to.
I appreciate that you had ties, I had them too.
they are gone, and I am left.
I want to fight.

Online wright

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2012, 01:18:05 AM »
For me, the recent (in the last 150 or so years) generations of my family are more important than the more distant past.

On my mother's side, inasmuch as I feel a connection with her relatives, it's mostly with the fond memory of my maternal grandmother: she raised six kids through the Great Depression and WW2, was a union organizer and long-time supporter of the Girl's Club in her home city of Bridgeport (Connecticut). A very hard-working and generous woman; I miss her but am proud to be one of her descendents.

On my father's side, my great-great-grandfather purchased part of the old Spanish Rancho Santa Rosa (in what became Santa Barbara County, Ca.). The family has kept the core of the property and it's still a going business to this day, 140+ years later. Lots of family stories and history in that land; I live less than 2 hours drive north.

Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2012, 01:18:24 AM »
I know my family history back to the great great grandparents level.
I'm 1/32nd Walloon, 1/8th Dutch and all the rest is Flemish. I try to pass family stories/anecdotes on to my kids, like why one branch of the family has a spelling mistake in their name and the branch that emigrated to the US, how my uncle got some peace and quiet while in a bunker in Sarajevo by handing his American bunk mates some Duvel or the story of how my great grandfather singlehandedly and unarmed captured four germans in october 1918 (no, he did not go all Chuck Norris on them). In fact, I find that story to be so cute that I've written it up for a magazine[1] and it got published. My way to preserve the meme.
I encourage my kids to read Flemish historic novels and comic books like Willy and Wanda[2] taking care to draw the distinction between fact and fiction.
When the Flemish national TV does history programs, they do a good job, but I do wish they'd cover things besides the world wars more often.
In general, awareness of ones history/heritage doesn't SEEM to be declining in Flanders but I don't have hard figures to back that up.
 1. tiny, minuscule magazine, now defunct
 2. Spike and Suzy if you're British
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2012, 02:58:58 AM »
Think of it like this. If I was adopted and had no clue who my sperm and egg donors were I personally wouldn't invest much interest in my heritage either.

We had a similar discussion the other day at work - everyone thought I was bizarre because I had no interest whatsoever in finding out what my ancestors did, or if a had distant relatives in another country.

Like you say, Kimberley - some of my ancestors could've been fantastic, some coulda been terrible.  But does that matter?  Does it make ME any better, or worse, because great-great-uncle Joe was a great emancipator/slaver?  If great-aunt-twice removed Josephine was a noted drunkard/temperance crusader?

While I can see the good parts in it, in many ways I also see "heritage" as divisive.  It's placing a great amount of emphasis on what people were, and what they did, rather than looking forward at what people are and can be, what they can become.  History is important, absolutely - we should know what "people" did.  But its when we start talking about what "my people" did, and what "your people" did that I get concerned, because that makes it harder to move forwards.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2012, 06:19:23 AM »
@Anfauglir, I agree that approaching the idea of heritage from the point of view of "my people" "your people" is very decisive.
this seems to be what the major religions have capitalized upon, by each tribe being segregated by a higher power or created differently from other and each to obey a different set of rules given their religious beliefs.
this is my perception anyways.
@wright
this is why I believe that a search towards an older heritage is needed, I will say if you place value on the economic successes of your elders your search may as well end with currency based on nothing that I would consider positive for mankind, the drawing of the line in the sand may well have began the end of humanity by placing a marker on something as fluid as the earth or sky.
how proud can one be of an investment that really has no value other than to segregate peoples that are on my land or not?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2012, 07:22:02 AM »
There are only an estimated 60 speakers of Omaha-Ponca and all of those are over the age of 60. In other words, the native language of my ancestors will be lost within my lifetime. It saddens me deeply.

There are quite a few languages that are likely to become extinct this century, and you're right, it is sad.  The up side is that we're moving closer to a global language, so that business and travel are becoming increasingly less challenging in this regard, but it's not a very good tradeoff.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Kimberly

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2012, 08:14:49 AM »
We had a similar discussion the other day at work - everyone thought I was bizarre because I had no interest whatsoever in finding out what my ancestors did, or if a had distant relatives in another country.

When I was younger I really thought a lot about such things. But I had motive, I didn't know my dad and wanted to understand that part of me. So I did do some research when I was a teenager. I traced the family name back to Germany and some Native American (I can't remember the tribe now but I'm almost certain it was Cherokee.) My research (Really just me attempting to find my dad.) led me to my uncle who refused to help me contact my father. Then I remind myself of this one memory where my paternal grandmother[1] told me that my paternal grandfather never really liked us kids. (Which conflicted with my memory of him holding us in his arms rocking us to sleep one night.)[2] I eventually came to know my dad and he never really lived up to my expectations. I have a half brother who is Autistic and I witnessed my dad using my brother as more of a slave than a child. When I came out of the atheist closet to my dad he disowned me, it was his pathetic attempt to justify his absences in my life. As if he some how knew I was a rotten seed at birth.

So no, knowing that side of my heritage brings me absolutely no happiness. Whoever they once were led to who they are now, and that's not who I am or care to be. I'd rather re-write my family's heritage from my children's generation forward. After the story above played out I decided that it would be better for history if I worked hard to rewrite the books so to speak. We are a new family, who hopefully will live up to expectations of our grandchildren and great great great grandchildren. But if not, I hope they find comfort in their own new beginnings.

All that being said my daughters are all named after my great grandmother who was named after her grandmother and so on. I was told my great grandmother was the glue that once held the maternal side of family together. I was told how strong she was and how hard she worked to maintain the family's happiness. From those stories I decided she deserved to help be the glue in my new chapter.
 1. My mom went to Japan when I was 5 and I stayed with them for 6 months.
 2. I have the pictures from this memory.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 08:17:34 AM by Kimberly »
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline none

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Re: roots, bloody roots.
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2012, 08:39:50 AM »
I have already reproduced and mastering that responsibility seems unattainable, but I am giving it my best go.
I too am building a new chapter but it is based upon previous chapters of both happiness and sorrow.
I intend to reveal all I know about my heritage to my lineage as time goes by, but in a manner that is appropriate.
maybe today will be the day I explain how my ancestors looked at the mountains that surrounded the valley and knew that all resources within the valley could sustain life but that the world was more complex and that one ventured forth to assimilate in to the "outsider" culture and no longer was a person of the valley.