Author Topic: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children  (Read 850 times)

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Offline Energized

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Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« on: July 06, 2012, 03:03:50 PM »
This is a question for christians. I have posted these question on other boards but I never (and I mean never) get an answer.

It's an appeal to emotion, sure. But I have found a lot of christians (and I used to be one) rely on emotions to convey their point. I haven't been able to shake it as well as I would like, but whatever. I'm not a robot...

Anyway, when I debate with christians about how horrible god actually is, I always ask:

1. What if god is hardening my heart right now? What if he is actually there and everything you say is true but I can't see it because god is hardening my heart like he did to Pharaoh? Is that fair? How does it make you feel? As a christian, does it make you sad that god is robbing me of my will for his divine plan or do we not really have free will?

2. In the OT, god instructed the chosen to stone their children for back sassing their parents. If this law were still enforced would you be able to stone Suzy for talking back to you? If not, why not?

If any christian here would like to answer one or both questions, I'd like to hear a response.

Thanks.

E.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 03:23:04 PM by Energized »
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
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Offline Emily

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 03:27:12 PM »
I hope GodExists sees this thread. He seems to have an answer for everything.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 03:59:33 PM »

1. What if god is hardening my heart right now? What if he is actually there and everything you say is true but I can't see it because god is hardening my heart like he did to Pharaoh? Is that fair? How does it make you feel? As a christian, does it make you sad that god is robbing me of my will for his divine plan or do we not really have free will?

Please allow me to backslide into my pre-2012 mode and find my more emotional late 1990's Christian helmet to put on.....................

Well E, if the LORD is hardening someone's heart, He's doing for a reason and whether believers understand it or not, we've just got to trust in Him because He knows best and eventually will work all things together for good.
If God were hardening your heart at the moment, what must be considered are all the moment prior to now when He was not. You, much like Pharoah presummably have had opporunity after opportunity to do what the LORD wills, but for whatever reason have chosen not to. As a Christian it saddens me that your heart has been hardened, but the reality of the situation that is really sad is that that did not have to be the case. Pharoah put himself in the position to have God harden his heart because of his pride. The same is likely the case for you and others whom God hardens. Paul actually addresses this concern in Romans the 1st chapter where he says the following:

18 For God's anger is being revealed from Heaven against all impiety and against the iniquity of men who through iniquity suppress the truth. God is angry: 19 because what may be known about Him is plain to their inmost consciousness; for He Himself has made it plain to them. 20 For, from the very creation of the world, His invisible perfections--namely His eternal power and divine nature--have been rendered intelligible and clearly visible by His works, so that these men are without excuse. 21 For when they had come to know God, they did not give Him glory as God nor render Him thanks, but they became absorbed in useless discussions, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While boasting of their wisdom they became utter fools, 23 and, instead of worshipping the imperishable God, they worshipped images resembling perishable man or resembling birds or beasts or reptiles.
24 For this reason, in accordance with their own depraved cravings, God gave them up to uncleanness, allowing them to dishonour their bodies among themselves with impurity. 25 For they had bartered the reality of God for what is unreal, and had offered divine honours and religious service to created things, rather than to the Creator--He who is for ever blessed. Amen.
26 This then is the reason why God gave them up to vile passions..................



2. In the OT, god instructed the chosen to stone their children for back sassing their parents. If this law were still enforced would you be able to stone Suzy for talking back to you? If not, why not?

If any christian here would like to answer one or both questions, I'd like to hear a response.


Well E, we must realize that God abhores sin and wants his people to do so as well. In Leviticus and again in Deuteronomy God emphasizes His desire for his people to be holy and have sin removed from their midst. That removal of sin will include making sure the children they raise have the proper disdain God requires for sin. For kids that do not respect their parents and bigger than that do not respect the holy God that gave them life, health, strength, and the promises and inheritance with God has blessed His people with, then they must be dealt with according to God's will.
If Suzy were to dishonor us as her parents and not repent and ask for grace, then she would be punished by us in a manner consistant with God's requirements. She would have to leave the family entirely and fend for herself outside of the dweeling place of God's chosen people, or we would have to do the unthinkable.
I do not worry about such a thing happening because God have given us the assurance that if we raise a child in the proper manner that even when they grow old, they will not depart from the proper teaching. That means if we do our job of instilling Godly values in our kids that we will never have to worry about the horrible thought of stoning Suzy for her disobedience to God.

Offline lomolo

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 04:14:19 PM »
I saw someone explain that God hardening Pharaoh's heart was actually Pharaoh's doing. Don't ask me how it works.

Offline Nick

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2012, 04:48:44 PM »
Isn't that from too many fatty foods?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline commsky

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 08:40:13 PM »
That's one mighty powerful Christian helmet OT. 
7th grade, I realize my classmates actually believe this crap.

Offline Energized

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 12:16:02 PM »
Please allow me to backslide into my pre-2012 mode and find my more emotional late 1990's Christian helmet to put on.....................

Well E, if the LORD is hardening someone's heart, He's doing for a reason and whether believers understand it or not, we've just got to trust in Him because He knows best and eventually will work all things together for good.


So my death in a lake of fire would be for the good of god, even though it’s him preventing me from coming to him because he hardened my heart. Ridiculous. Moreover, that you can speak of such an atrocity for millions as though you were discussing the price of milk is a little scary.

Quote
If God were hardening your heart at the moment, what must be considered are all the moment prior to now when He was not. You, much like Pharoah presummably have had opporunity after opportunity to do what the LORD wills, but for whatever reason have chosen not to.

I should direct you to my introduction thread where I clearly state the desire with all my being to hear from god but he was silent on the issue.

Quote
As a Christian it saddens me that your heart has been hardened…

No, you should be sad that you serve a god that may be doing this to me now. You can have pity on me to be unfairly robbed of my free will, but you should be angry at your master.

I can liken the situation to being unfairly imprisoned and tortured for a crime my jailer knows I did not commit. You worship this jailer knowing what he is doing.

Quote
…but the reality of the situation that is really sad is that that did not have to be the case.

Again, I should direct to my introduction thread where I clearly state the desire with all my being to hear from god but he was silent on the issue.

Here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21283.msg473414.html#msg473414

Quote
Pharoah put himself in the position to have God harden his heart because of his pride.

This is the point, though isn’t it? The bible clearly states god hardened Pharaoh’s heart so he would keep the jews in bondage (of which there is no evidence this occurred… but that’s another myth for another time). If Pharaoh had all this pride and wouldn’t have released the jews anyway, why did god have to step in to insure he wouldn’t?

There are hundreds of instances where people oppressing the chosen ones did not have god step in to guarantee an outcome. But god knowingly robbed Pharaoh of his free will.

The way I read it, is like this: Pharaoh would have released the jews but god wanted them to suffer a little more so he hardened Pharaoh’s heart on purpose. To what end?

Quote
The same is likely the case for you and others whom God hardens.

So by worshiping this monster you agree that it’s fair game, and others be damned? Nice.

Quote
Paul actually addresses this concern in Romans the 1st chapter where he says the following:
18 For God's anger is being revealed from Heaven against all impiety and against the iniquity of men who through iniquity suppress the truth. God is angry: 19 because what may be known about Him is plain to their inmost consciousness; for He Himself has made it plain to them. 20 For, from the very creation of the world, His invisible perfections--namely His eternal power and divine nature--have been rendered intelligible and clearly visible by His works, so that these men are without excuse. 21 For when they had come to know God, they did not give Him glory as God nor render Him thanks, but they became absorbed in useless discussions, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While boasting of their wisdom they became utter fools, 23 and, instead of worshipping the imperishable God, they worshipped images resembling perishable man or resembling birds or beasts or reptiles.
24 For this reason, in accordance with their own depraved cravings, God gave them up to uncleanness, allowing them to dishonour their bodies among themselves with impurity. 25 For they had bartered the reality of God for what is unreal, and had offered divine honours and religious service to created things, rather than to the Creator--He who is for ever blessed. Amen.
26 This then is the reason why God gave them up to vile passions..................

I think goes to the point of Pharaoh possibly allowing the jews to go free but didn’t because god hardened his heart. These verses speak of god giving unbelievers up to their own cravings. If Pharaoh had this pride issue that he wouldn’t give up, god shouldn’t have had to do anything.

Sorry – your explanation is a combination of not knowing the mind of god but trying to explain it in a way that makes you feel better about it.

In all of this, you didn’t answer whether you have free will or not. I’d be curious to know your thoughts.

Quote
Well E, we must realize that God abhores sin and wants his people to do so as well. In Leviticus and again in Deuteronomy God emphasizes His desire for his people to be holy and have sin removed from their midst. That removal of sin will include making sure the children they raise have the proper disdain God requires for sin. For kids that do not respect their parents and bigger than that do not respect the holy God that gave them life, health, strength, and the promises and inheritance with God has blessed His people with, then they must be dealt with according to God's will.

A torturous death. Gotcha.

Quote
If Suzy were to dishonor us as her parents and not repent and ask for grace, then she would be punished by us in a manner consistant with God's requirements. She would have to leave the family entirely and fend for herself outside of the dweeling place of God's chosen people, or we would have to do the unthinkable.

No, she would not be given the chance to leave. She would be put to death. Please don’t minimize the passage and please don’t add to what is clearly stated in the bible. I think Paul warns of this in Revelations.

Quote
I do not worry about such a thing happening because God have given us the assurance that if we raise a child in the proper manner that even when they grow old, they will not depart from the proper teaching. That means if we do our job of instilling Godly values in our kids that we will never have to worry about the horrible thought of stoning Suzy for her disobedience to God.

I linked to my introduction thread and I hope you read it.

If not, I will paraphrase:

My parents were heavily involved in church. My father was a minister. My parents lived godly lives and continue to believe in the christian god, Jesus, and the rest of it.

My parents were good parents and active in our lives.

By 19 my brother was an alcoholic and a crack addict by 25. So where did they go wrong?

In addition to avoiding the free will question, you also avoided whether you would carry out god’s instructions. Trying to minimize the punishment by saying Suzy would leave the family is a lie. You are commanded to stone her for disobedience.

Could you? It’s a simple yes or no question for what god has deemed to be a black and white issue. Also, do you have kids?

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 10:24:17 PM »

So my death in a lake of fire would be for the good of god, even though it’s him preventing me from coming to him because he hardened my heart. Ridiculous. Moreover, that you can speak of such an atrocity for millions as though you were discussing the price of milk is a little scary.

Your death in a lake of fire would be horrendous, unfair, and contrary to God's will. You must understand that my God is not willing that ANY should perish and wants ALL to come to repentance and into age lasting oneness with Him. The lake of fire need not be your destiny!

I should direct you to my introduction thread where I clearly state the desire with all my being to hear from god but he was silent on the issue.

God knows your heart and will eventually show you even more than you ever desired in His time!

No, you should be sad that you serve a god that may be doing this to me now. You can have pity on me to be unfairly robbed of my free will, but you should be angry at your master.
I can liken the situation to being unfairly imprisoned and tortured for a crime my jailer knows I did not commit. You worship this jailer knowing what he is doing.   
This is the point, though isn’t it? The bible clearly states god hardened Pharaoh’s heart so he would keep the jews in bondage (of which there is no evidence this occurred… but that’s another myth for another time). If Pharaoh had all this pride and wouldn’t have released the jews anyway, why did god have to step in to insure he wouldn’t?
There are hundreds of instances where people oppressing the chosen ones did not have god step in to guarantee an outcome. But god knowingly robbed Pharaoh of his free will.
The way I read it, is like this: Pharaoh would have released the jews but god wanted them to suffer a little more so he hardened Pharaoh’s heart on purpose. To what end?


God hardening ones heart is one of the way He allows the limited free will man now has to be expressed. It's simply God giving a person over fully to THEIR OWN desires.



Sorry – your explanation is a combination of not knowing the mind of god but trying to explain it in a way that makes you feel better about it.

It's not my explanation, it's God's Word! I don't know God's but I know what's revealed in His word and I just accept it.


In all of this, you didn’t answer whether you have free will or not. I’d be curious to know your thoughts.

I'd say we have personal wills particular to each individual, but that will, or ability to carry out ones desires/will is limited by various factors. Free will is but an expression that is not the reality as it is limited by ones ability and circumstances.



No, she would not be given the chance to leave. She would be put to death. Please don’t minimize the passage and please don’t add to what is clearly stated in the bible. I think Paul warns of this in Revelations.
In addition to avoiding the free will question, you also avoided whether you would carry out god’s instructions. Trying to minimize the punishment by saying Suzy would leave the family is a lie. You are commanded to stone her for disobedience.

Could you? It’s a simple yes or no question for what god has deemed to be a black and white issue. Also, do you have kids?

She would most certainly be given the chance to leave! The Sinai Covenant to which you refer was optional. Anyone that didn't wish to be party to it could have elected to forfeit the promises the covenant provided and live as the heathens OUTSIDE of Israel.
But if push came to shove and God asked me to end her life, I'd do as Abraham did with Isaac.


I will paraphrase:
My parents were heavily involved in church. My father was a minister. My parents lived godly lives and continue to believe in the christian god, Jesus, and the rest of it.
My parents were good parents and active in our lives.
By 19 my brother was an alcoholic and a crack addict by 25. So where did they go wrong?

E.

I almost made it through this entire post, but I can't! I tried really hard, I promise. I can't even play devils advocate with a straight face anymore.

Offline on:bread:alone

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 10:45:17 PM »
Your death in a lake of fire would be horrendous, unfair, and contrary to God's will.

isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

if god created evil, how would this horrendous, unfair death in a lake of fire be contrary to his will? i mean, assuming (for the sake of arguement) that god actually exists... he created darkness and evil. seems to me that being omniscient, he knew damn well that he would spend his time condeming people to eternal flame. i think that a more appropriate statement would be that god is horrendous and unfair for creating evil and then punishing people for it in a lake of fire. sounds to me like your "god" is a sadist and a facsist.
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Offline on:bread:alone

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 10:55:33 PM »
Quote
God hardening ones heart is one of the way He allows the limited free will man now has to be expressed.

and earlier...

Quote
As a Christian it saddens me that your heart has been hardened…

so are questioning "god's" decision-making here, or are you in agreement with it? if you believe this is how he allows you to express your "limited free will," then why would this sadden you? and exactly what do you mean by "limited free will" anyway? are you saying people can kinda make their own decisions in life, but but not really because ultimately god has the power to veto them? i mean, wouldn't that basically mean that god already has his mind pretty well made up about each individual's destiny? again, sounds like this guy is a sadist.
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Offline on:bread:alone

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 10:59:02 PM »
I hope GodExists sees this thread. He seems to have an answer for everything.

i think my head would break if i had to read the convoulted shite that he'd surely spout off.
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Offline Energized

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 06:52:39 AM »
I almost made it through this entire post, but I can't! I tried really hard, I promise. I can't even play devils advocate with a straight face anymore.

Pwned!

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2012, 04:46:25 PM »
I saw someone explain that God hardening Pharaoh's heart was actually Pharaoh's doing. Don't ask me how it works.
its like we all live the same lives... I literally had this discussion last week too. She DID indeed say god didnt harden his heart and that it was already hardened. However contradictory to the book she claimed to live by.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2012, 06:12:39 PM »
I help little old ladies across the street, I help people with physically load groceries into their car, I weep when I see animals and people in pain, I donate regularly to charity, I love playing with children, I don't lie cheat or steal (abhorrent to me), I am over empathic and get distressed when I see situations I have no control over, I worry contstanrly about where the world environment is heading, I put others before by self because to do otherwise makes me feel dreadful, I love and care for my family, and yet, to the distress of my born-again alcoholic aunt (still alcoholic!) I am still going to go to hell when I die. It causes her great stress that I cannot relieve her of. All because I cannot believe in her version of god. Me, I'm not terribly fussed, when I die I die, it's all over, but to her, I am heading toward an enternial lake of fire and torment. That has seriously got to suck. I think it makes her life just a little more awful. Glad I'm not in her shoes. But there is nothing I can do, I will not lie to make her feel better.

Just my two cents.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2012, 08:00:05 PM »
I help little old ladies across the street, I help people with physically load groceries into their car, I weep when I see animals and people in pain..

I had a feeling that you were a good egg Natlegend!
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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2012, 08:34:14 PM »
Whoa - you get some  questioning christian wandering into this thread - and wham! - another atheist.
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2012, 05:44:06 AM »
I help little old ladies across the street, I help people with physical disabilities load groceries into their car, I weep when I see animals and people in pain..

I had a feeling that you were a good egg Natlegend!

Haha yes, but I also like to shoot kittens. In trees.[1]
 1. With a camera. I work as a news camera operator.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Hardened Hearts and Stoning Children
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2012, 05:20:30 PM »
Dammit!  Natlegend rattled my cage. That's the second time today.  The first time was in the Letter To The Editor section of my morning newspaper. My paper is pretty good about giving voice to all sides, even though it is a New York Times satellite.

An otherwise nice lady wrote that "this country can not have ethics without god". She also wrote that we can not have a functional democracy without god.

I claim the same thoughtful, kind, generous, attributes as Natlegend. I'm confident that a bunch of you can make the same claims with honesty and sincerity. Theists innermost convictionss are that it is impossible for seculars, atheists, agnostics, to have ethics or morals and that really pisses off a very nice guy; Me.  I must have a hidden mean streak because I had some fleeting visions of strangleing the dumb bitch.