Author Topic: I don't get YEC.  (Read 33185 times)

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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #319 on: August 11, 2013, 08:40:23 PM »
All we need to know about that is 'how can a person claiming this distinguish between the subconscious part of their brain telling them things as a god telling them things'.

Science says that the subconscious is the source of dreams.
If dream scientists say that dreams are the source of god,
then it must be true.   Is that what they say?
 


 

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #320 on: August 11, 2013, 08:46:37 PM »
Now SW says that there is a "natural" worldview and some "other" worldview, based on who knows what, which is the worldview that he holds.

Well, I would argue that every worldview is natural. Every worldview comes from the workings of someone's brain, and brains are natural. Brains are made up of biological and chemical reactions, as far as anyone can tell. So, until someone can demonstrate a non-biological, non-chemical brain process or function, we have to continue to assume that there are only natural worldviews. The difference is that some natural worldviews are based on concrete evidence, ie reality, and some are not.

And atheism is not by itself a worldview at all, only an observation about the world. Just look at the discussions we have about guns, education, health care, free will and so on to see that atheists don't all have the same worldview--we just don't think there are any gods.

If you were to read some background on the topic you are discussing, 
then you'd have more information.

http://biblez.com/searchtopical.php?q=%22natural+man%22

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #321 on: August 11, 2013, 08:49:15 PM »
I'm sorry, but it really looks as if your alleged 30 years of studying wasn't as exhaustive as you would have some believe.

I made no claims about "exhaustive" -ness. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #322 on: August 12, 2013, 06:36:19 AM »

If you were to read some background on the topic you are discussing, 
then you'd have more information.

http://biblez.com/searchtopical.php?q=%22natural+man%22

Your claim to 1:Cor:2:14 being background is false

Quote
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

What you have in the above is pre-suppositionalism. First the reader has to accept there is a God and then they must accept that this god explains the difference between “reality” and “spiritual reality.”

This differs from a normal person’s view of the world in which first he establishes that the source is objectively present.

I am very surprised that you take 1:Cor as support of anything.

Even theologically, Paul, seems to be self-contradictory. As usual, Paul (or whoever wrote 1Cor) makes statements that seem to him to be logical, but upon analysis, are not.

Quote
16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

As “the Lord” and Christ are one, how would it be possible not to know the “mind of the Lord” yet “have the mind of Christ”?

Paul never defines “spirituality”. This is not unreasonable as there is no precise definition such that a reasonable person could understand the term and agree on it with others. However, it is this lack of the ability to provide a satisfactory definition that shows that it is the figment on one man’s imagination.

There is little doubt that Paul suffered from a mental illness, his conversion on the road to Damascus is a classic example of temporal lobe epilepsy[1] in which the patient sees visions that have no basis in reality.[2] This tends to indicate To the sufferer, the illusion is very real indeed, but to normal people, who experience nothing, it appears to be madness.

So to summarise:
1. The passage you claim as background is irrelevant, illogical, and misleading
2. The person alleged to have written it was given to seizures that created illusions that, to him, were indistinguishable from reality.
3. To accept that the testimony of Paul was accurate, we would have to accept that a mental aberration was the norm and that it is the rest of the entire population of the world who are at fault. I would liken this to the amputee with one leg saying that normality is having one leg.


edti - fixed end note, I hope.
 1.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1032067/
 2. It is interesting to note that the two accounts of Paul’s conversion differ significantly.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 09:53:18 AM by screwtape »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #323 on: August 12, 2013, 10:48:50 AM »
Now SW says that there is a "natural" worldview and some "other" worldview, based on who knows what, which is the worldview that he holds.

Well, I would argue that every worldview is natural. Every worldview comes from the workings of someone's brain, and brains are natural. Brains are made up of biological and chemical reactions, as far as anyone can tell. So, until someone can demonstrate a non-biological, non-chemical brain process or function, we have to continue to assume that there are only natural worldviews. The difference is that some natural worldviews are based on concrete evidence, ie reality, and some are not.

And atheism is not by itself a worldview at all, only an observation about the world. Just look at the discussions we have about guns, education, health care, free will and so on to see that atheists don't all have the same worldview--we just don't think there are any gods.

If you were to read some background on the topic you are discussing, 
then you'd have more information.

http://biblez.com/searchtopical.php?q=%22natural+man%22

How was my statement inaccurate? The brain is an organ of the body made of cells, molecules and atoms, the same as the heart and the spleen.  Like every other part of the body, the brain functions by biology and chemistry. And, like all the other parts of the body the brain's functions can be explained quite well by scientific investigation.  Your brain does not have any more supernatural connections to the universe than your kneecap.

Would you allow someone who had no medical knowledge or training, but who believed strongly in god and used bible verses as references, to operate on your kneecap? heart? brain? Or would you prefer to have someone who did not believe in any gods, and had never read the bible in their life, but was an expert in the medical science of how the human body functions?

I don't think the bible, written thousands of years ago by people ignorant of neuroscience, gives accurate information on how people's brains work. And when it comes right down to it, even you agree with that.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #324 on: August 12, 2013, 11:50:37 AM »
Nogodsfor me is quite right about the operation of the brain. We may have a lot to know about how the brain works but we are pretty clear as to basics and, especially, the fact that the seat of thoughts etc is the brain itself and the mind which is just the action of the brain.

We could not, I think, rule out the possibility that there are 'other dimensions' in which, for example, there might be a god and nor can we completely rule out the possibility that the brain could in some way we don't know manage to communicate with 'another dimension'. However, evidence that this can be done is going to have to some from people now and form demonstrations of this happening in a suitably controlled environment. Heck, scientists round the world would love to see such a demonstration as it would open up more research possibilities as well as, possibly, leaving much of our physics in disarray.

What is not going to happen is anyone taking any notice of an ancient book when trying to describe how the brain works. The ancient Greeks and Hebrews didn't even know the brain was where the emotions are situated - never mind how the brain might work. So quoting the bible is not going to help if you want to convince others about the possibility of communications with 'other worlds' or with gods.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #325 on: August 12, 2013, 12:01:53 PM »
Nogodsfor me is quite right about the operation of the brain. We may have a lot to know about how the brain works but we are pretty clear as to basics and, especially, the fact that the seat of thoughts etc is the brain itself and the mind which is just the action of the brain.

It really is surprising to me how many people still don't understand and/or accept this.  I can only assume that it's rooted in denial caused by fear of death, or something like that.

Quote from: Paul Churchland
If there really is a distinct entity in which reasoning, emotion, and consciousness take place, and if that entity is dependent on the brain for nothing more than sensory experiences as input and volitional executions as output, then one would expect reason, emotion, and consciousness to be relatively invulnerable to direct control or pathology by manipulation or damage to the brain. But in fact the exact opposite is true. Alcohol, narcotics, or senile degeneration of nerve tissue will impair, cripple, or even destroy one's capacity for rational thought.  Psychiatry knows of hundreds of emotion-controlling chemicals (lithium, chlorpromazine, amphetamine, cocaine, and so on) that do their work when vectored into the brain. And the vulnerability of consciousness to the anesthetics, to caffeine, and to something as simple as a sharp blow to the head, shows its very close dependence on neural activity in the brain. All of this makes perfect sense if reason, emotion, and consciousness are activities of the brain itself. But it makes very little sense if they are activities of something else entirely.

Source: Paul Churchland, "Matter and Consciousness"
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #326 on: August 12, 2013, 04:14:18 PM »
You see, religious people know and accept all this brain research. But only as it applies to people in other religions. Other religious people are being tricked by their brains into thinking that a different god is talking to them. Because they don't know the true god.... &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #327 on: August 12, 2013, 08:25:06 PM »

If you were to read some background on the topic you are discussing, 
then you'd have more information.

http://biblez.com/searchtopical.php?q=%22natural+man%22

Your claim to 1:Cor:2:14 being background is false

Quote
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

What you have in the above is pre-suppositionalism. First the reader has to accept there is a God and then they must accept that this god...

These are both presuppositions provided by the url of this website:
" Why won't God heal Amputees."

The question presupposes both the existence of amputees and God. I use the website title
as the starting place for all my answers. Both exist for the purposes of this forum.

Presupposition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Presupposition (disambiguation).
In the branch of linguistics known as pragmatics, a presupposition (or ps) is an implicit assumption about the world or background belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted in discourse.

Examples of presuppositions include:

Jane no longer writes fiction.
Presupposition: Jane once wrote fiction.

Have you stopped eating meat?
Presupposition: you had once eaten meat.

Have you talked to Hans?
Presupposition: Hans exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presupposition

So any complaints must be taken up with the website owner, not me.
That god exists is the premise for this website.
The question being: Why does God not replace legs. 
Because God is Spirit.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #328 on: August 12, 2013, 08:31:49 PM »
Would you allow someone who had no medical knowledge or training, but who believed strongly in god and used bible verses as references, to operate on your kneecap?

I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon. 

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #329 on: August 12, 2013, 08:34:07 PM »
You see, religious people know and accept all this brain research. But only as it applies to people in other religions. Other religious people are being tricked by their brains into thinking that a different god is talking to them. Because they don't know the true god.... &)

There is only one God. 
People have many descriptions....because God is only here in Spirit, not physical form.   

Offline median

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #330 on: August 13, 2013, 02:26:12 AM »
I'm sorry, but it really looks as if your alleged 30 years of studying wasn't as exhaustive as you would have some believe.

I made no claims about "exhaustive" -ness.

WOW. Are you really that much of a dismissive jerk? I put quite a bit of effort into my last response to your claims and instead of actually responding to them you simply copy and past the very last sentence of my entire post and provide some wimpy one liner backpedal for an answer?

Yay! Another "follower" of Jesus! NOT...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #331 on: August 13, 2013, 02:42:24 AM »

If you were to read some background on the topic you are discussing, 
then you'd have more information.

http://biblez.com/searchtopical.php?q=%22natural+man%22

Yes, like every religion does, we know you can (and have) merely ASSUMED your bible is the authority. But I don't care what you can assume. Anyone can assume anything. I care what you can actually demonstrate to be true and accurate - and that's because I actually care whether or not my beliefs are true (which is why I practice skepticism quite equally, which apparently you do not - especially when it comes to the bible). So the question is, why have you assumed this alleged holy book is true? For the longest time now we have been waiting for you to provide demonstrable evidence - not just claims.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jdawg70

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #332 on: August 13, 2013, 09:35:05 AM »
I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon.
I refuse to believe that you thought about this statement.  Any entity capable of powering on a computer and typing words should immediately recognize the silliness and dangers of this kind of thinking.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline screwtape

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #333 on: August 13, 2013, 10:08:46 AM »
I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon.


I do not believe this for one moment.  While you play dumb on the internets, you are not actually that dumb.
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #334 on: August 13, 2013, 10:40:15 AM »
I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon.


I do not believe this for one moment.  While you play dumb on the internets, you are not actually that dumb.
Yeah-- now he's just making crap up to be annoying. He never responds, he just reacts.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #335 on: August 13, 2013, 10:42:16 AM »
These are both presuppositions provided by the url of this website:
" Why won't God heal Amputees."

The question presupposes both the existence of amputees and God. I use the website title
as the starting place for all my answers. Both exist for the purposes of this forum.
You do realize that even imaginary things exist, right?  Harry Potter exists, within the pages of the Harry Potter books, within the brains of the people who have read the books, and within various and sundry fanfics written about him.  But that doesn't make him or his exploits real.  Therein lies the problem with your latest argument.  The statement (or presupposition) that God exists doesn't prove that God is real.

Quote from: SkyWriting
So any complaints must be taken up with the website owner, not me.
That god exists is the premise for this website.
The question being: Why does God not replace legs. 
Because God is Spirit.
Nope, because you are not making the same argument as the website owner (which I think we both know).  The presupposition that God exists is meaningless in and of itself, because something does not have to be real in order to exist.  See my Harry Potter example above.  What you have to prove is that God is real, not that God exists.

Furthermore, your attempt to answer the question posed by this website is pretty worthless.  Saying that God doesn't heal amputees because God is spirit has no inherent meaning.  You might as well have said, "God doesn't heal amputees because God is supernatural", or "God doesn't heal amputees because God is immaterial", but those don't actually answer the question.  They don't explain why God doesn't heal amputees, they simply assert something about God which has no actual relevance to the question asked.

So first off, define what you mean by 'spirit'.  You've said that you differ from 99% of Christianity, so we need to know what you mean by spirit.  It's clear that we shouldn't assume that some existing definition of the word 'spirit' will suffice.  Once you define it, we can go from there.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #336 on: August 13, 2013, 10:51:03 AM »
Would you allow someone who had no medical knowledge or training, but who believed strongly in god and used bible verses as references, to operate on your kneecap?

I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon.

You did not respond to my questions. No medical knowledge, only the bible, versus a medically trained expert with no bible. And you ignored the part about the brain being made up of cells, molecules and atoms just like the rest of the body's organs. Or does your brain have some special section with supernatural stuff in there that nobody else has?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #337 on: August 13, 2013, 01:40:23 PM »

These are both presuppositions provided by the url of this website:
" Why won't God heal Amputees."

The question presupposes both the existence of amputees and God. I use the website title
as the starting place for all my answers. Both exist for the purposes of this forum.

Presupposition
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Presupposition (disambiguation).
In the branch of linguistics known as pragmatics, a presupposition (or ps) is an implicit assumption about the world or background belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted in discourse.

Examples of presuppositions include:

Jane no longer writes fiction.
Presupposition: Jane once wrote fiction.

Have you stopped eating meat?
Presupposition: you had once eaten meat.

Have you talked to Hans?
Presupposition: Hans exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presupposition

So any complaints must be taken up with the website owner, not me.
That god exists is the premise for this website.
The question being: Why does God not replace legs. 
Because God is Spirit.


As with most religious apologists you once again demonstrate another equivocation in terms to suit your assumptions. If Jane was demonstrated as no longer writing fiction, then it was not a presupposition. If Hans was demonstrated as existing, then it was NOT a presupposition (stop the urge to equivocate on the term 'exist'!). You are deliberating attempting to change the meanings of words and that is dishonest. WWGHA Forum does NOT presuppose a God exists, and what you keep failing to do is consider the meaning of what is stated. The flaw is in your deliberate literalist misinterpretation of language, and not in the meaning of the language itself. 

Your presupposition (aka - implicit assumption about the world) is that the bible is accurate in it's claims to the miraculous. That is credulity.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #338 on: August 13, 2013, 01:43:35 PM »

There is only one God. 
People have many descriptions....because God is only here in Spirit, not physical form.

Yet another faulty assumption based upon your mountain of faulty assumptions regarding the bible and your interpretation of it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #339 on: August 13, 2013, 01:44:40 PM »

I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon.

Care to demonstrate that?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #340 on: August 13, 2013, 09:08:41 PM »

I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon.

Care to demonstrate that?

Not liking a doctors diagnosis of my condition I continued to seek additional council of anyone who would see me.  After 5 physicians I found one who recognized my problem.  I would gladly have accepted the advice of even the janitor if it had been offered.   Thanks to the delay I have scars across my face.  Similar to this situation:
http://livingwellwithabaddiagnosis.blogspot.com/2010/10/cellcept-shingles-and-boils-oh-my.html

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #341 on: August 13, 2013, 09:10:49 PM »

There is only one God. 
People have many descriptions....because God is only here in Spirit, not physical form.

Yet another faulty assumption based upon your mountain of faulty assumptions regarding the bible and your interpretation of it.

The Bible is useful.   But not where I got my faith from.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #342 on: August 13, 2013, 11:22:29 PM »
If Jane was demonstrated as no longer writing fiction, then it was not a presupposition. If Hans was demonstrated as existing, then it was NOT a presupposition. 

Sorry you disagree with the definitions and examples that normal society approves of.
I can see why it would disturb your logic. 



Definition of PRESUMPTIVE
1
: based on probability or presumption <the presumptive nominee>
2
: giving grounds for reasonable opinion or belief
3
: being an embryonic precursor with the potential for forming a particular structure or tissue in the normal course of development <presumptive retina>
— pre·sump·tive·ly adverb  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/presumptive



presumption

1 an act or instance of taking something to be true or adopting a particular attitude toward something, especially at the start of a chain of argument or action:
the presumption of guilt has changed to a presumption of innocence
 an idea that is taken to be true, and often used as the basis for other ideas, although it is not known for certain:
underlying presumptions about human nature
 chiefly Law an attitude adopted in law or as a matter of policy toward an action or proposal in the absence of acceptable reasons to the contrary:
the planning policy shows a general presumption in favor of development



 

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #343 on: August 13, 2013, 11:26:01 PM »
Quote from: nogodsforme link=topic=23188.msg566002#msg566002
You did not respond to my questions.

Anyone can see I answered your question completely.   
Anybody.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #344 on: August 13, 2013, 11:34:42 PM »
  What you have to prove is that God is real, not that God exists.

I check all the rules.  Your claim is false.  Besides, I only claim to argue any and all cases from the basis that God exists as a construct as written in the scriptures.  I also claim to believe He is real as a personal statement.  Not as a mathematical proof. Science can't prove anything. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #345 on: August 14, 2013, 04:39:32 PM »

The Bible is useful.   But not where I got my faith from.

Yeah, making up reasons to believe in invisible friends as you go along saves all that time wasted by reading the ramblings of superstition, Iron-Age goatherders, doesn't it?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #346 on: August 14, 2013, 04:52:32 PM »

I'd let anybody who believed they could help.
If a candy striper said she could do a better job,
I'd trust her judgment over a surgeon.

Care to demonstrate that?

Not liking a doctors diagnosis of my condition I continued to seek additional council of anyone who would see me.  After 5 physicians I found one who recognized my problem.  I would gladly have accepted the advice of even the janitor if it had been offered.   Thanks to the delay I have scars across my face.  Similar to this situation:
http://livingwellwithabaddiagnosis.blogspot.com/2010/10/cellcept-shingles-and-boils-oh-my.html
But you did not seek the advice of a janitor or an airline pilot or a shoe clerk or a minister of the bible. You continued to seek help from medically trained doctors. Until one figured out what was wrong. And you blame medical science, that solved your problem, for your problem.

I am sorry you had health problems. But do you really think a person with zero medical information, ie the janitor, would have helped you figure out what treatment you needed? If so, why go to doctors for help at all? Just go to the janitor. It would be much cheaper.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't get YEC.
« Reply #347 on: August 14, 2013, 04:54:33 PM »
Quote from: nogodsforme link=topic=23188.msg566002#msg566002
You did not respond to my questions.

Anyone can see I answered your question completely.   
Anybody.

No. Bible alone vs medical science alone. Which one solves health problems better?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.