What's your overall world view on theists?

[Kimberly]

Due to another thread I bought Tim Tebow's book "Through My Eyes". I've not finished it yet because I've been uber busy, but so far it summarizes as a very sad story, IMO. Tim Tebow was basically created, brought in to this world, by his parents to be a preacher. Or maybe even more fanatically a prophet of some sort (though they don't outright say that.) But his father prayed to god to bring him a preacher, and it was revealed to him and his wife that they were to give birth to another child. That child would be hand chosen by god to deliver his message to the world.

His mom basically lived in a 3rd world country[1] with no modern medicine and survived a pregnancy that should have been naturally aborted. And then the book basically goes in to detail about how they didn't allow their children to have any outside influence such as TV. They weren't allowed to go to their friends houses because they were afraid of what influences their children might encounter.

They discuss how they used biblical scriptures to guide their children's morals, and basically 100% indoctrinated, brainwashed, and controlled their children. IMO it all seems very sad, and it makes me feel sorry for the guy and his siblings. The book reads as very cultish, like 20 years from now people will look back and say that poor kid never had a chance.

But then you look at the guy an he's presumably happy, rich, famous, and for all we know has all his wants and desires met.[2] So my problem becomes do we feel bad for people who are otherwise happy with their lives?

I look at most theist with respect, in the sense that I don't treat them differently than anyone else. But ultimately I think they are insane, some of them are so brainwashed they have no hope, some are just too scared to let go, and some have seen the truth and reject it intentionally. They may be able to be function highly in every other aspect of their lives, but when it comes to their beliefs are they not insane? Do you not feel sympathy for people who were indoctrinated from birth and who will never be given a chance to escape the cult of religion?

Some people tell me I shouldn't feel sympathetic towards them because they enjoy their lives, and some of them are "better off" than me. But I can't help but feel a little sadness when I think of people like Tim Tebow, who had their lives dictated for them so heavily. It's always been my goal to raise my children to be whatever they want, from sexual orientation, religion, politics, career, education, etc. Of course I do guide them and try to prevent them from becoming drug addicts, alcoholics, etc ultimately their life is their own to live how they want. I try my best not to project my own world view on to them. I guess it just makes me sad to see children, and adults who were not allowed this freedom.

Perhaps I shouldn't waste the energy on adults, because they can arguable think for themselves, but can they really? What are your alls thoughts?

1.	I assume I didn't actually look that up. And they didn't specifically say that, it could be 2nd world.
2.	This is not the time to mention that you think he can't throw a football, I'm talking bigger picture.

[rickymooston]

Well, he is a preacher. He jst happens to play football relatively well¹.

What pregancncy shou;d have been aboryff? Hid mom id ok now

^{1 - Something less that 1 in a million peopl;e are talented enough to make pro-football. Even if he is the worst guy in the NFL, he is talented}

[Kimberly]

Ricky, I'm not a doctor but my basic understanding from his book is that his mom should have either died from complications during pregnancy and birth. Or her body should have rejected the fetus. Or all of the above, needless to say they think he is a miracle baby and a gift from god who only survived to deliver god's word. And for the record in his mind Football is 2nd to god, football is his platform to reach a bigger audience.

[rickymooston]

Ricky, I'm not a doctor but my basic understanding from his book is that his mom should have either died from complications during pregnancy and birth. Or her body should have rejected the fetus. Or all of the above, needless to say they think he is a miracle baby and a gift from god who only survived to deliver god's word. And for the record in his mind Football is 2nd to god, football is his platform to reach a bigger audience.

Like i said, he is a preacher.

[Mr. Blackwell]

And then the book basically goes in to detail about how they didn't allow their children to have any outside influence such as TV. They weren't allowed to go to their friends houses because they were afraid of what influences their children might encounter.

We do not have TV. And to an extent we decide who our children spend time with due to influences. Doesn't everybody do the same for their own children?

They discuss how they used biblical scriptures to guide their children's morals, and basically 100% indoctrinated, brainwashed, and controlled their children. IMO it all seems very sad, and it makes me feel sorry for the guy and his siblings. The book reads as very cultish, like 20 years from now people will look back and say that poor kid never had a chance.

That is the beauty of parenthood. We try to raise our children in our own image. According to what we believe to be true. Or best.

We shouldn't feel bad for people who are happy with their lives. If they are happy being rich and successful, well great. If they are happy living in poverty, well great.

If they are rich and unhappy or poor and unhappy then we should do our best to help them feel better.

I look at most theist with respect, in the sense that I don't treat them differently than anyone else.

Very good

But ultimately I think they are insane, some of them are so brainwashed they have no hope, some are just too scared to let go, and some have seen the truth and reject it intentionally.

To whose truth are you referring to here? Yours? If you claim to know the truth about God or religion or our purpose in life then please verify your claim.

They may be able to be function highly in every other aspect of their lives, but when it comes to their beliefs are they not insane?

No. What do you believe? Who gets to define what sanity is?

Do you not feel sympathy for people who were indoctrinated from birth and who will never be given a chance to escape the cult of religion?

You have been building up to this, however it is an appeal to emotion.

It's always been my goal to raise my children to be whatever they want, from sexual orientation, religion, politics, career, education, etc. Of course I do guide them and try to prevent them from becoming drug addicts, alcoholics, etc ultimately their life is their own to live how they want. I try my best not to project my own world view on to them.

In reference to the bold, you are actively projecting YOUR values onto your children[1], instead of letting them figure it out for themselves. Tim's parents projected THEIR values onto Tim...what's the difference?

1.	no worries, every parent does it whether they want to or not

[Kimberly]

Like i said, he is a preacher.

So do you care to answer the questions I mentioned in the OP?

[Kimberly]

We shouldn't feel bad for people who are happy with their lives. If they are happy being rich and successful, well great. If they are happy living in poverty, well great.

If they are rich and unhappy or poor and unhappy then we should do our best to help them feel better.

So when do you begin feeling sympathy? What if the indoctrination includes endangering the well fair of a child? What if the endangerment brings the child happiness? Should we not care, should we not feel sympathy?

Perhaps I draw my line too soon? I'm open to that idea.

To whose truth are you referring to here? Yours? If you claim to know the truth about God or religion or our purpose in life then please verify your claim.

I claim to know that religious indoctrination is a powerful weapon. Nothing more, nothing less in regards to this topic specifically.

No. What do you believe? Who gets to define what sanity is?

I'm not referring to clinical insanity. But when I watch TV and see people on TBN I seriously think these people are acting insane. That's my judgement. I see people IRL friends, family, acting insane. They make decisions that are not rational, that affect their livelyhood all in the name of their god. It makes me sad. Such as when my daughter's grandmother didn't have money for insulin because she wanted to tithe. 

You have been building up to this, however it is an appeal to emotion.

I don't think my line of questioning is a logical fallacy. I'm not attempting to tell anyone that they must feel a certain way or that there is a right way to feel. I'm expressing how I feel and asking how others feel about the same thing. I have no desire to transform anyone's opinion on this topic. I'm sincerely just seeking opinions of others.

I apologize for my choice of verbiage, perhaps it was improperly worded.

In reference to the bold, you are actively projecting YOUR values onto your children[1], instead of letting them figure it out for themselves. Tim's parents projected THEIR values onto Tim...what's the difference?

1.	no worries, every parent does it whether they want to or not

I don't think I do. I do my best to expose them to other ideas from my own. I don't shelter, isolate, or prevent them from obtaining knowledge. I'm sure my opinions carry a lot of weight, and my guidance does sway them, but I'm pretty relaxed. I'm probably strictest on dress code, but it's more of a length issue. My daughter has really long legs so most shorts and skits aren't appropriate on her. My oldest daughter is a christian[2] living in a house with two atheists. I think I'm pretty open minded when it comes to letting my oldest form her world view. (My youngest is too young to have one.)

2.

Her words

[Mr. Blackwell]

Kimberly, I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinion. You remind me of a combination of my wife[1] and myself.

As concerns Mr. Tebo, I see no problems with how he was raised or how he now chooses to live his life. Of coarse, I haven't read the book and I know very very little about him other than what I have seen on Saturday Night Live.

If he want's to play football and praise his God then more power to him. The only time I draw a line is when someone with political influence imposes their religious point of view on the masses.[2]

However, when it comes to parenting, I believe that as long as the children are in no physical danger or psychologically abused then the parents have free range to raise their children however they see fit.

So no, I have no sympathy for Tim Tebow or anyone else who was raised in a religious home.

1.	Who's name also happens to be Kimberly
2.	I'm thinking Nanci Pelosi et al here

[Truth OT]

 he's presumably happy, rich, famous, and for all we know has all his wants and desires met.[1] So my problem becomes do we feel bad for people who are otherwise happy with their lives?

I look at most theist with respect, in the sense that I don't treat them differently than anyone else. But ultimately I think they are insane, some of them are so brainwashed they have no hope, some are just too scared to let go, and some have seen the truth and reject it intentionally. They may be able to be function highly in every other aspect of their lives, but when it comes to their beliefs are they not insane? Do you not feel sympathy for people who were indoctrinated from birth and who will never be given a chance to escape the cult of religion?

Some people tell me I shouldn't feel sympathetic towards them because they enjoy their lives, and some of them are "better off" than me. But I can't help but feel a little sadness when I think of people like Tim Tebow, who had their lives dictated for them so heavily. It's always been my goal to raise my children to be whatever they want, from sexual orientation, religion, politics, career, education, etc. Of course I do guide them and try to prevent them from becoming drug addicts, alcoholics, etc ultimately their life is their own to live how they want. I try my best not to project my own world view on to them. I guess it just makes me sad to see children, and adults who were not allowed this freedom.

Perhaps I shouldn't waste the energy on adults, because they can arguable think for themselves, but can they really? What are your alls thoughts?

1.	This is not the time to mention that you think he can't throw a football, I'm talking bigger picture.

In a perfect world, the bold sentiment you expressed would be almost ideal. But unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and the human condition itself is a precarious one. Because of these current realities, the roles parents have had to take has partially required a certain level of mental manipulation, brainwashing, etc. in order to not only keep their seeds safe, but also to help them function in and adapt to the reality they will likely be living their lives a part of.

If the human condition continues being one that is fatalistic and mired in a temporary and at times painful existence, then the need for coping mechanisms will always persist and to this point I doubt that man has developed a more effective coping mechanism than religion.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

Understanding perhaps, sympathy, no.  My own life (and probably the lives of almost everyone here) is far more difficult than Tebow's, since we lack his money, popularity, and delusion.  I ask no one for sympathy.  Why should I give it to someone who thinks everything's just fine, and for whom everything is indeed, just fine.  However, I am always willing to apply understanding when assessing someone's behavior.

[wright]

I know many religious people, most of them without particularly strong beliefs (not regular church-goers, not biblical literalists, etc.) but believing to at least some degree in the supernatural. Some of them I respect: their empathy, their professionalism, their skill.

I regard their religious beliefs as irrational, rather than delusion or insanity. None of them, thus far, have allowed those beliefs to seriously compromise their livelihood or health (or that of anyone else).

I don't feel particularly sorry for them, or those like Mr. Tebow. Most religious people find a way to compartmentalize / rationalize their faith so they can function in the modern world.

[Kimberly]

Kimberly, I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinion. You remind me of a combination of my wife[1] and myself.

<cut>

However, when it comes to parenting, I believe that as long as the children are in no physical danger or psychologically abused then the parents have free range to raise their children however they see fit.

So no, I have no sympathy for Tim Tebow or anyone else who was raised in a religious home.

1.	Who's name also happens to be Kimberly

Thank you for the kind words and for sharing your opinion. I guess I need to evaluate how I define harm.

My oldest daughter got her feelings hurt when she found out Santa wasn't real. She felt really betrayed and deceived. She told us that she trusted us and we shouldn't have lied to her. This was a pretty big deal for her, and she was disappointed in the decision we made to play Santa. Perhaps not all kids take the news so bad, but in her mind the decision to deceive her was heartbreaking. She didn't care so much that he didn't exists; just that we chose to lie (intentionally).

So IMO seemingly innocent things can hurt our children. Perhaps having such a sensitive and intuitive child either makes my sympathy meter go off sooner, or perhaps she is the way she is because my meter is also sympathetic...

But I thought that story might help explain how I find indoctrination of any kind to be potentially harmful. Of course she's not mad today and the difference with religion is they believe what they are saying to be the truth. I may have to reset my meter to review based off of intent to cause harm or deceive. But then again, some people have good intentions and still end up hurting other people. Such as child predators who sincerely think they are helping the kid, or showing them love.

[Kimberly]

I know many religious people, most of them without particularly strong beliefs (not regular church-goers, not biblical literalists, etc.) but believing to at least some degree in the supernatural. Some of them I respect: their empathy, their professionalism, their skill.

I regard their religious beliefs as irrational, rather than delusion or insanity. None of them, thus far, have allowed those beliefs to seriously compromise their livelihood or health (or that of anyone else).

I don't feel particularly sorry for them, or those like Mr. Tebow. Most religious people find a way to compartmentalize / rationalize their faith so they can function in the modern world.

I think you make some valid differentiating points here, some that I had not considered. Thank you.

[IAmFirst]

Praying during a professional sport on television should only result of the dissolution of the player's contract. As a vocal anti-theist, any theist is an egotistical maniac who's primed to think they're better than the rest of the sheep in a religious group.

How many times have we been told that our priests and preachers have been hand selected by god to deliver and remind the rest of us about "his glorious plan?" As I grew up in the catholic faith years ago, I always felt priests were a lesser/handicapped sort of group. They had no families, no kids, so how are they superior to my mom and dad?

[albeto]

Due to another thread I bought Tim Tebow's book "Through My Eyes". I've not finished it yet because I've been uber busy, but so far it summarizes as a very sad story, IMO. Tim Tebow was basically created, brought in to this world, by his parents to be a preacher. Or maybe even more fanatically a prophet of some sort (though they don't outright say that.) But his father prayed to god to bring him a preacher, and it was revealed to him and his wife that they were to give birth to another child. That child would be hand chosen by god to deliver his message to the world.

I used to really dislike the word "delusion" with regard to religion, but this sentiment really does suggest the word applies. 

His mom basically lived in a 3rd world country[1] with no modern medicine and survived a pregnancy that should have been naturally aborted. And then the book basically goes in to detail about how they didn't allow their children to have any outside influence such as TV. They weren't allowed to go to their friends houses because they were afraid of what influences their children might encounter.

1.	I assume I didn't actually look that up. And they didn't specifically say that, it could be 2nd world.

 I can't tell you how revered this family is in xian homeschooling communities. 

They discuss how they used biblical scriptures to guide their children's morals, and basically 100% indoctrinated, brainwashed, and controlled their children. IMO it all seems very sad, and it makes me feel sorry for the guy and his siblings. The book reads as very cultish, like 20 years from now people will look back and say that poor kid never had a chance.

I agree.  I think it's not only sad, I thinks it's as unethical as raising a child in a "Patriarchal" family.  Further, in my opinion, the only difference between this and the Pearl's kind of discipline is that emotions and shame are used rather than physical beatings, but the breaking of the child's character to conform to the delusion of the parent is similar. 

But then you look at the guy an he's presumably happy, rich, famous, and for all we know has all his wants and desires met.[2] So my problem becomes do we feel bad for people who are otherwise happy with their lives?

2.	This is not the time to mention that you think he can't throw a football, I'm talking bigger picture.

Well, to the extent none of us have "free will" as it's been commonly understood through the ages, we all have a particular reality to respond to that is much out of our control.  The pathetic thing is Tebow's parents took the opportunity to suppress their children's growing self-identity in order to support their delusional belief.  Part of supporting it is instilling it into their children, so as happy as he is, it's a reflection of a manipulated self-identity that costs him a measure of liberty that could have been experienced.  That's why I think it's unethical. 

I look at most theist with respect, in the sense that I don't treat them differently than anyone else. But ultimately I think they are insane, some of them are so brainwashed they have no hope, some are just too scared to let go, and some have seen the truth and reject it intentionally. They may be able to be function highly in every other aspect of their lives, but when it comes to their beliefs are they not insane? Do you not feel sympathy for people who were indoctrinated from birth and who will never be given a chance to escape the cult of religion?

I interpret it a little differently.  I interpret it as a response to anxiety of some kind.  I don't mean to suggest theists are otherwise anxious people, but we humans naturally gravitate towards pleasure and avoid anxiety.  Religion offers a hope for a perfect reward and an escape from the ultimate anxiety-causing thought - mortality.  My sympathy is short lived when confronted with arrogance and hypocrisy, but for the most part, I think theists hang on to a belief they know they can't quite understand or explain because to do so would be to give up too much hope. 

Some people tell me I shouldn't feel sympathetic towards them because they enjoy their lives, and some of them are "better off" than me. But I can't help but feel a little sadness when I think of people like Tim Tebow, who had their lives dictated for them so heavily. It's always been my goal to raise my children to be whatever they want, from sexual orientation, religion, politics, career, education, etc. Of course I do guide them and try to prevent them from becoming drug addicts, alcoholics, etc ultimately their life is their own to live how they want. I try my best not to project my own world view on to them. I guess it just makes me sad to see children, and adults who were not allowed this freedom.

Yeah, I hear you there. 

Perhaps I shouldn't waste the energy on adults, because they can arguable think for themselves, but can they really? What are your alls thoughts?

As much as any of us can, yes they can argue for themselves.  That is to say, some of us respond more emotionally to the reality around us, and some of us respond more logically.  Some of this is natural (the way our brains respond to stimuli), some of this is conditional (our experiences train us).  I don't think it works to stereotype theists, but I do agree with you that the brainwashing tactic is a cryin' shame. 

[Kimberly]

Thank you for your response albeto, I don't really have much more to add. You pretty much summarize how I feel. I appreciate you taking the time to write out a thoughtful response to my questions.

[Zankuu]

In a nutshell, I think they are all, to some degree, hindrances to critical thinking and education.

[Kimberly]

Praying during a professional sport on television should only result of the dissolution of the player's contract.

Why? At best you can say they should get an excessive celebration penalty IF they interrupt the flow of the game or violate the other rules of the game such as using props or team celebrations... An example would be if 2 or more people huddle up and Tebow on the field preventing the next play to start. Repeat offensives should be fined. Unless their contract specifically states the would be in violation for praying during a game (Which it would never say; you are asking to violate the players civil rights here.) then you can't dissolve their contract.[1]

As a vocal anti-theist, any theist is an egotistical maniac who's primed to think they're better than the rest of the sheep in a religious group.

I couldn't disagree with you more, but I appreciate your honesty.

How many times have we been told that our priests and preachers have been hand selected by god to deliver and remind the rest of us about "his glorious plan?" As I grew up in the catholic faith years ago, I always felt priests were a lesser/handicapped sort of group. They had no families, no kids, so how are they superior to my mom and dad?

The only thing I can say about this is... I don't know how someone who has never had a family can attempt to tell others how to maintain a family.

1.	I'm speaking in regards to how the NFL should handle it, I don't specifically know other organizations rules but my line of reasoning would mirror to match this response.

[The Wannabe]

I can't say that i respect theist for their theism.  As i've divulged on this forum elsewhere, my dad is borderline schizophrenic[1].  He claims to hear voices in his head, and depending on what day of the week it is, he identifies these voices as belonging to Jesus, Satan, Beelzebub, the holy spirit, or whatever other pseudo-religious figure he can spiritually interpret his mental illness with.   

Now, other theist might not be loony, but they sure as hell support my pop's mental disorder.  Every time he hears a pastor preach about how Satan plants destructive thoughts in a persons mind, or how Jesus lives inside of the believer like some kind of parasite, it directly bolsters his fictitious interpretation of a sickness that is wreaking unopposed havoc on his life[2].  Moderate Christians are unwittingly supporting a lot of ignorance and diseased thinking.  It is due to Christianities so called credibility that many believers refuse to seek medical attention for illnesses that desperately need to be treated. 

Until humanity decides to delouse itself of religion, we as a species will never be well.     

1.	He may be bipolar as well.
2.	As well as the lives of those who love him.

[Kimberly]

I don't respect them because they are theist, or even respect their theism. I respect them as individuals with the fundamental right to believe what they want.

But you bring up a good point. Looking at it from your perspective they are causing indirect consequences that they may not even be aware of. This is exactly the point in which I struggle. If you judge by intent, then they have done no harm to your father. If you go by the affect their action has on him then they are responsible...

I find that this is one of the hardest lines to draw when I'm defining my world view.

[Hatter23]

I used to really dislike the word "delusion" with regard to religion, but this sentiment really does suggest the word applies. 

I don't understand why everyone shys away from that word. A delusion is a belief resistant to evidence that it isn't true. It describes religion perfectly, from the C&Eer casual Christian, to the fire an brimstone types like Tebo. Delusions have levels of severity and how much they impact your life. A person can assume they are the rightful heir of the Dutchy of Glouchester, but if they just lament that they were cheated out of their throne a little when they are deep in their cups...or they could be attacking members of the royal family.....depending on the severity of the delusion. Religion, once again, is no different.

The issue is still comes to how much do you trust a governmental body to make the right decision as to how a child is raised, and IMNSHO it is currently slightly short to the right level. Physical abuse and denying of medical care is unacceptable, religion as a reason to opt out of science education, or modifying science education is unacceptable. The mental warping is bad, but I'm not convinced trusting the government as to what isn't permitted at a social level is even more prone to abuse.

 

[jeremy0]

I see most theists as people wasting their time playing imaginary games as a kid instead of doing their homework...

[IAmFirst]

I think you have a different definition of theist than I do, Kimberly. I certainly wouldn't classify Tebow as one, because isn't exactly bible-based, more like faith based. More like a fundie.

To me, a theist has actually read the entire bible, studied it, finds any part to be "true" and thinks that not only god is real but kind.

In other words, theist=stupid, should not have kids, and should find a mental facility.

[Kimberly]

IMO
Theist = blanket statement to encompass all believers in god(s).
Fundie = a theist with lots of SPAG and less actual knowledge of their religion

Tim Tebow is IMO an uber fundie, I'm pretty sure his entire existence and self worth is to live for god, spreading the word of god, and I'm almost as certain as I can be that he actually reads the bible.

Do you follow college football?

"The Tebow Rule"

In 2010 a new rule for the next NCAA football season banned messages on eye paint. This rule was dubbed "The Tebow Rule"by media because it would have affected him.During his college football career, Tebow frequently wore references to biblical verses on his eye black. In the 2009 BCS Championship Game, he wore John 3:16 on his eye black; the verse was the highest-ranked Google search term over the next 24 hours, generating over 90 million searches. Additionally, later, when Tebow switched to another verse, there were 3.43 million searches of "Tim Tebow" and "Proverbs 3:5-6" together. Tebow stated of the searches "It just goes to show you the influence and the platform that you have as a student-athlete and as a quarterback at Florida".

Source : The_Tebow_Rule^Wiki

I also follow him on FB, he post scriptures rather often. He also travels to the Philippines as an evangelical missionary. Not that this alone means he has studied the bible but he actively preaches the bible in schools, prisons, youth groups, etc. I would say you have to have at least read most of the bible to write a sermon but I guess that's not necessarily true.

Any ways, I think it's safe to say he at least studies what he finds relevant to him. So even with your definitions,IAmFirst, he's a theist

[IAmFirst]

Yeah, quite familiar with the Tebow family. And the Tebow Rule should stay in the Tebow house. I protested their little abortion commercial on Super Bowl Sunday.

But honestly, Tebow is not exactly an OT guy. His sermons focus on Jesus and his life. So he seems more of a fundie.

Still, you absolutely should not think of someone who sits in a pew, puts a buck in a collection plate and chews a wafer to be a theist. The only theist in most churches is the one in the Halloween costume at the pulpit.

Ask any regular churchgoer how old Noah was when he built the ark. See if they're familiar with Jesus supporting the talmudic laws in Matthew 5:17-46. Ask what they think of the fig tree story. Even the popular myths in the wretched bible are hardly known by the sheep.

[Kimberly]

That commercial was the first thing that sparked my curiosity as to what messages they are spreading. It's kinda funny how they talk like she would have thought about aborting him. They specifically breed him for preaching, why would they every think of killing their messenger? The whole abortion part of their story seems more like an after thought to appeal to people who wonder what each fetus, "could be.". I gtg so that's all the time I have for my reply.

[rickymooston]

Like i said, he is a preacher.

So do you care to answer the questions I mentioned in the OP?

Not sure if i get what all the questions are

Do i feel sorry for ppl who are raised in strict religious environments? About their minds being closed and them not having opportunities to be free?

It depends on whether those environments are oppressive or not. For example, there is an atheist on the IGI whose family drove away two of their homosexual sons and religion destroyed their family

One turned to drugs,

Yes, in that case i feel sorry.

In terms of parenting, these are the ultimate questions for me:
1) do you teach your kid to care About others are contribute to society
2). Are they independennt?
3) do you keep them safe from drugs, violence, sexual predators, dangerous activities
4) are they able to find some kind of happiness and stay in reasonable health

I am not an anti-theist. I dont care if their upbringing is secular humanist, religious or whatever. Mykids will be raised secular humanist because i am. I won't "offer them a choice" with respect to religion but i will respect that they will maketheir choices whether iwant them to or not
 
In terms of abortion, i think the potenrial of the kid is a fair argument that the mother can take in considderation. I am pro choice. I hve a friend whose mom coninced her not to have one because her clck was ticking. In fact, that is her only kid. I didnt see the superbowl ad. She had a choice and after deepp consideration, chose to kee the kid. She was the one faced with he consequences of this and it ws her boydy.

I wonder if him being bred for preaching is 20/20 hinnd sight?

[Kimberly]

Thanks for your response Ricky. You have a pretty "fair" perspective. I can appreciate how you would raise your children.

I wonder if him being bred for preaching is 20/20 hinnd sight?

IDK, I suppose it's possible. They claimed to have named him Timothy because it means a disciple of the apostle Paul. I think that shows a little foresight.