Poll

What existed before the big bang?

Nothing
4 (8%)
God(s)
2 (4%)
Something Unknown
9 (18%)
I don't know
31 (62%)
Other
4 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Author Topic: What existed before the big bang?  (Read 2176 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2012, 01:08:25 PM »
in a black hole, we basically have a huge mass of stuff that exists and yet doesn't.

That's news to me. Where did you hear that?
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2012, 01:24:46 PM »

BTW  - these are just my opinions based on studies I've seen..

Also, my answer to your OP would be that we simply don't know yet, because we haven't yet proven physics to that degree.  That's why we have the haldron collider (sp?)!
The science channel, netflix.  Online discussion.  I don't even know exactly where I heard that..
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Online Azdgari

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2012, 01:31:44 PM »
That's kind of sloppy then, jeremy, to then go on and make claims on the basis of what you might have heard somewhere.  Would you accept that sort of backing for a religious claim?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2012, 01:32:28 PM »
The science channel, netflix.  Online discussion.  I don't even know exactly where I heard that..

Sounds like BS to me.[1]
 1. The claim; not this.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2012, 02:06:48 PM »

BTW  - these are just my opinions based on studies I've seen..

Also, my answer to your OP would be that we simply don't know yet, because we haven't yet proven physics to that degree.  That's why we have the haldron collider (sp?)!
The science channel, netflix.  Online discussion.  I don't even know exactly where I heard that..

Have you been watching this   too jeremy0?

Offline jeremy0

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2012, 02:14:53 PM »
I agree it was sloppy.  But I don't have time to write a paper about it. 

Basically it can be viewed two ways:

1.  Space-time is like a balloon.  Everything in physical existence travels over the surface of that balloon.  Since space-time is wrapped inversely around a black hole, you can picture it like being inside the surface of the balloon.  This means that inside a black hole, there is no fabric of space-time.  Since everything that physically exists requires space-time, then things in a black hole don't physically exist as we know it to.  This means that to the observer (us), even though we know super-massive object is there, as far as we are concerned it isn't existing in space-time, and so also isn't there.

2.  Space-time is like the surface of a rubbery sheet.  A black hole is like pushing very, very far down on that sheet with a tiny rod, creating a cone.  The cone is so steep that nothing can travel on space time fast enough to escape the inside.  Also, space time is so warped at the bottom of that cone that nothing can be observed much past the outer rim.  Since we know something is there, but we can't observe any of its interior, it exists and yet to the observer (us) it doesn't exist as far as we are concerned - it's not actually traveling on the fabric of space-time (the 4th dimension - movement/time)

I guess I should explain myself further - I enjoy theory much more over proven science.  That's because it provokes interesting thought and discussion rather than regurgitation...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:23:50 PM by jeremy0 »
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Offline Godexists

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2012, 06:12:11 PM »
While the rest of us look at the evidence we have and simply give the honest answer of "we don't and may never know."

Who do you mean with " we " ? Victor Stenger, Dawkins, and many other atheists do assert, there was most probably a multiverse......

We don't know many things, but  we can reason and try to come as close as possible to the truth.  " We don't know " is a frequently used escape and pseudo answer  of atheists, to not get out of their comfort zone, where they can illude themself, no God to exist, and mantain their desired atheistic world view.
But we do not need to stop here, and give as ultimate answer " we don't know ".  The theist is justified to go further, and state :

http://www.debate.org/debates/The-Kalam-Cosmological-Argument-for-the-Existence-of-God-is-Sound/1/

Everything that begins to exist, has a cause. The universe had a beginning, therefore a cause. What was it ? the cause must transcend space both matter and time to create both matter and time. It must also be changeless, since there was no time prior to the creation of the universe. Interestingly enough, this also lends credibility to the notion that the cause was personal, for how else could a timeless cause give rise to a temporal effect? It seems that the only way this could be possible is if the cause was a free agent who has the ability to effect a change; for if the cause of the universe was impersonal, then it would not have created. Finally, in order to create the universe ex nihilo, this cause must be enormously powerful, if not omnipotent. One is warranted in concluding that therefore, God exists.


Online Azdgari

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2012, 06:34:35 PM »
The "personal" part there comes entirely out of nowhere.

Also, SG never answered this post of mine:

SwayzesGhost, during what period of time did God create time?

For how long might he have existed, before he created time?

Care to answer?  I know they're critically flawed questions, but the flaws are educational.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2012, 06:52:02 PM »
" We don't know " is a frequently used escape and pseudo answer  of atheists.........and mantain their desired atheistic world view.

I  like it when theists also say they don't know.

Godexists,
What do you think an atheist's world view is?  How much do you think atheists march in lock step with each other?  How damaging do you think an atheist’s views are to you?  If you are righteous, you’ll be fine, right?  Please don’t worry about me.  I am having a good time dancing - eating salads, ribs, cheeseburger subs, ice cream, etc.  I love music (all kinds) and gardening.  I also enjoy speculating about the universe.  And the Olympics.   I mean you no harm.  Please don’t harm me.


As for the universe, I don't really think science is that far along understanding it.  Have you seen the hubble pictures?  It looks like a boiling cauldron out there - it just seems a fantastically slow boiling cauldron.  I really think the hubble discoveries do alot to dispel the theory that some sort of supernatural being caused the universe - but hey - you may be right - but the older I get, the less I think you are.
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2012, 08:00:09 PM »

Have you been watching this...  too jeremy0?
Actually, that one was new.  I think that is one of the best videos that attempts to combine multiple theories together that I have seen.  It doesn't give absolutely every theory, but a lot of information in one go.  And yeah - it also explained my theory on a black hole being nothing and yet something at the same time..

I think that is important, because I don't believe it is enough to just understand one physics theory, and absolutely a beautiful image when they are brought together into a functional explaination of the universe.  For example, I just picked up a large amount of information that I didn't have before on Quantum Physics just by the nice way that the video described it to me.

So the reason I say that after the universe rips itself apart as theorized and would then 'rebirth itself', is simply because of this piece of information - that calculating backwards to the beginning of our universe, and then going onward, brings us into a new time altogether.

You might find this rather interesting:
http://science.psu.edu/news-and-events/2007-news/Bojowald6-2007.htm/

All I have done is, put all these bits of information together in my mind, to form a picture and an understanding of both the very small and very large universe.  I think you'll find that life and death, and rebirth is a natural phenomina that occurs with almost everything we know.  The fact is decay is everywhere, and so is birth.  What we are inevitably going to do is find a way to put all these theories together into a cohesive theory that makes absolute sense as to why we have made all of these observations, and explains everything we both observed and didn't observe (we observed things that the unobservable force had an impact on). 

So you see, I'm not actually unfounded by making these sorts of statements - I've just gathered information over time about physics, and the more I gather, the clearer the picture becomes to me.  The thing that sticks out that doesn't currently fit nicely is M-Theory.  And I would be willing to wager it is not describing multiple universes all in co-existence, any more than it is not taking into account the allusion of time and in fact describing our own universe as it is constantly reborn into new universes, new times, and new existence.  In that sense, everything possible that could happen will happen, simply because it can.  And I find ideas like that fascinating...

But that's just my collective knowledge, and although I have a small fascination with physics, I'm just a brilliant computer programmer..

In other words, you should all be watching Truth OT's posted video, because it explains things in good detail, watching other physics theories be explained at a high-level, and imagine all the parts coming together.  So go gain some knowledge and then come back and try to convince me that I'm 'unfounded', or 'sloppy', or that 'god created it'...

Also, bear in mind that I'm an absolute off-the-charts-genius at putting puzzle pieces and information together and solving it...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:06:57 PM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline jeremy0

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Re: What existed before the big bang?
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2012, 10:55:02 PM »
Now, if you actually want to question things I claim, I'll say the following so you can really hate away, but it relates to this forum...

What makes you, you?  I can postulate that what makes you yourself is simply a cluster of energy, with material organs that give you capabilities to process, store, and retrieve information and act out on that information in your own way.  Since I can say that information is stored spread out on energy, and energy can store boat-loads of information on it; I can say that you don't require a 'spirit' to control you, as some would say.  This is because any organism effectively does the same thing you do..  Can you issue commands to animals - and do they respond to those commands based on information processing, retrieval, and action?  Yes.

Now, to further that idea, let's say that since what makes you yourself is simply energy and information and matter, let's point to the fact that the way you store information in your brain isn't in one location - it's spread out throughout that energy in certain areas of the brain that are better equipped to handle certain types of information.  When we recall something, we don't navigate to a certain node in the brain, but rather the memory is spread out throughout an area of the brain.  See the following for starters:

http://brainconnection.positscience.com/topics/?main=fa/memory-formation4
http://www.coolunknown.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2782:scientists-think-consciousness-is-separate-from-the-brain&catid=52:your-mind
http://gpsworldtraveler.hubpages.com/hub/Really-Does-Our-Brain-and-the-Universe-Function-Like-a-Hologram

So now I can take you back to one of my early posts on here and say - where does this energy that makes you up go to when you die?  Your matter may decay, but the energy doesn't.  And since your thoughts and experiences are imprinted on that energy, what actually happens? 
Now look at 'the egg theory' one more time.  Does the basic premise of it make just a little sense, disregarding the details of the story?  I would say, yes.

Now let me further the discussion.  The question in the universe shouldn't be 'where did all these objects and matter come from?', but rather; 'where did all of this energy come from?' 

In the simplest terms of everything we know, I can break everything down to one thing - the interaction of energy.  That's the simplest description of our universe and reality that I can give.  Now, if I were to say one theory that accurately describes the universe in summarization, I would simply state 'c2.'  It's as simple as that.

Now roll that up, smoke it, and pass me the nachos, because what I've been trying to tell you guys this whole time is this:

I've been paying attention in this place.  I've noticed that something is drastically wrong.  It's called society.  My potential is almost entirely wasted in this place, almost considering the internet's capabilities.  Why am I spending most of my time doing simple-to-me programming tasks to do some small thing for some business, when I could be doing things that would give us much more benefit?

I see so many people with their heads in the wrong places - just because of religion.  Then, in the absence of religion, they lose their sense of purpose and morality, due to lack of proper information.

What I've wanted all this time is this:  Stop thinking about what you want, and what you need.  Start thinking about what everyone needs.  Start doing things that fulfill the objective that everyone has what they need.  Also consider our environment - everything needs to be in a stable environment to survive.  And I want humans to survive long enough to at least say 'I understand all of this'.  I wanted people submersed in knowledge, thinking for themselves - imagination is more important than knowledge - that is how we create new things, and come up with new ideas.  Forget what you think you know, and start learning for yourselves.  Start thinking for yourselves.  I wanted to show you how to collect the information and solve everyone's problems...

Now what are the real problems?  We spend an awful lot of time on things that aren't actually problems, believe in things that aren't real, and dis-believe things that are real and are a major problem.

Take climate change.  If you're still doubting that this 100-year-old scientific fact is real, then I would say we have lost our environment to stupidity.  We have to solve this problem in order to sustain life.  This requires people to give a shit about themselves, other people, their offspring, and their surroundings.  Start giving a shit.  This one problem may force us out of existence well before natural time would allow us to survive here - why do something like that to ourselves?

Also, nobody is always 100% correct.  But, through open discussion we can be closer to 100% correct.  It can also make us 100% wrong.  But at least a concensus was reached.  Do you want to bring about world peace?  It requires all of you to understand human needs, and why each human needs it.  It requires you to put together a lot of information about humans, and the different species of the world - give a shit about it - and come to a common agreement that peace is the correct option to progress society. 

Additionally, we don't have to keep living within the confines of society as we know it.  If the math no longer works - it's time for a new equasion...

Now if you can understand what I just tried to tell you, then maybe you'll understand a lot of what Einstein was saying:
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school."
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."
"Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 11:20:05 PM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."