Author Topic: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs  (Read 2866 times)

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Offline Barracuda

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Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« on: June 27, 2012, 10:37:25 PM »
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/files/Drug-Rankings-by-Harm.pdf

Actual effects of drugs don't really line up with their legalization status.  &) Such an unwarranted stigma on so many substances just because they're illegal. Without looking at this chart for example, would anyone have said they'd be more comfortable taking ecstasy than tobacco? Setting aside legality, tobacco marks worse in every category according to this chart.

I'd be interested to thoughts on drug law from anyone who supports the war on drugs or criminalization on here.

Offline Nick

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 10:54:06 PM »
I believe the long long "war on drugs" has done nothing but make cartels rich, fill prisons, and cost this nation billions along with wasted time and efforts.  If people want to do something they will find a way to do it.  The OPs info is right. Tobacco kills more worldwide than all the other drugs, wars, murders, traffic accidents put together.  Yet we bend over backwards to protect big tobacco.

Humans are nothing more than dumb monkeys so what else do you expect.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 12:39:10 AM »
Although I'm in favor of legalizing all drugs, I don't think it's accurate at all to say that tobacco is more dangerous than ecstasy. For example, tobacco can't kill you the first time you try it if you accidentally smoke too many. Lots of people smoke more than 20 times a day for decades, can you take 20 hits of ecstasy a day for decades? Tobacco is a very slow killer, I would say it's just about as dangerous as cheeseburgers.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 03:57:28 AM »
When such a point is raised, the word "drugs" is often used to mean marijuana, but this is not the only drug.

Joebbowers makes an excellent point, and one I hadn't heard before. The other thing is that, culturally, tobacco is accepted, although less so recently where restrictions have been imposed. Culture has little to do with logic or common sense but is, nevertheless, a powerful thought that difficult to change.

Countries that have legalised drugs have not had happy histories; families that have drug addicts suffer horrible anguish and worry; even if heroin were legal and freely available, I would not want my children to have anything to do with it.

If you are a heroin addict, you would be restricted to never leaving your country,. otherwise you would face arrest.

Would you employ a crack addict?

Drugs can alter behaviour to the danger of the user and others.

The next thing is that neighbouring countries will impose security restrictions on all your citizens, who could be smuggling.

Then there are the clever chemists who will spend time and effort producing new drugs

And the deaths of children who find the stash.

And what about the people who produce these drugs? Are they then changed to respectable human beings and no longer the scum of the earth?

And what of the health problems? What do we know of the long term ills of every possible drug?

If a person is stupid enough to risk their health, future and livelihood, are they wise enough to make the decision to start taking drugs?

But the question is, "Why the hell would anyone want drugs?"

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Nick

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 07:58:02 AM »
Somebody worldwide dies from tobacco use every 10 seconds.  That was my point about tobacco.  Most addictive substance on Earth.  One drop of pure nicotine can kill you.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 09:45:49 AM »
BM
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Barracuda

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 10:24:04 AM »
Although I'm in favor of legalizing all drugs, I don't think it's accurate at all to say that tobacco is more dangerous than ecstasy. For example, tobacco can't kill you the first time you try it if you accidentally smoke too many. Lots of people smoke more than 20 times a day for decades, can you take 20 hits of ecstasy a day for decades? Tobacco is a very slow killer, I would say it's just about as dangerous as cheeseburgers.
You may be "able" to depending on what how many mg you consider a "hit," but yes it would fuck you up/kill you. But there is no reason that anyone would do that. That's like saying Tylenol is more dangerous than tobacco because you can't be constantly taking servings of tylenol at 20 tablets/serving. It's just not a realistic picture of how the drug is used.

Countries that have legalised drugs have not had happy histories; families that have drug addicts suffer horrible anguish and worry; even if heroin were legal and freely available, I would not want my children to have anything to do with it.

If you are a heroin addict, you would be restricted to never leaving your country,. otherwise you would face arrest.

Would you employ a crack addict?

Drugs can alter behaviour to the danger of the user and others.
About the bold:
A) Correlation =/= Causation.
B) Just plain wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

I am not arguing in favor of drug addiction, so the rest is irrelevant.

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And what about the people who produce these drugs? Are they then changed to respectable human beings and no longer the scum of the earth?
Scum of the earth? I believe the technical term is "white-collar executives."

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And what of the health problems? What do we know of the long term ills of every possible drug?
Same can be said for any "medication," food, or whatever. If they were legal there could actually be a process to study these more thoroughly than they are right now. There is some information available, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use#Risks_and_harm

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But the question is, "Why the hell would anyone want drugs?"
They feel great.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 10:41:03 AM by Barracuda »

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 11:08:32 AM »
Countries that have legalised drugs have not had happy histories;

What do you mean by history? Before or after legalizing drugs?

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families that have drug addicts suffer horrible anguish and worry;

Families that have motorcyclists or alcoholics suffer horrible anguish and worry. But I wouldn't make those things illegal.

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even if heroin were legal and freely available, I would not want my children to have anything to do with it.

Motorcycles and alcohol are legal. I don't want my children to have anything to do with them.

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If you are a heroin addict, you would be restricted to never leaving your country,. otherwise you would face arrest.

Most people never leave their home country in their entire lifetime. Not a big concern. And if it were legalized in neighboring countries, even less of a concern.

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Would you employ a crack addict?


No. Neither would I employ an alcoholic. Neither would I employ someone with facial tattoos. Neither would I employ someone who still lived with his parents and played Dungeons & Dragons.

But I don't think it should be illegal to make bad choices that don't affect others.

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Drugs can alter behaviour to the danger of the user and others.

So can... almost everything. Music, movies, books, sports, love, sex, food, alcohol. I can give you examples of every one of those things altering someone's behavior leading to the endangerment of self or others, and not just isolated incidents.

If someone drinks and gets into a fight, we punish them for the fight. If someone drinks and causes an accident, we punish them for the accident. We punish those who do not drink responsibility. It would be ridiculous to punish everyone who drinks as if they've already caused harm. Yet when it comes to other drugs, the same logic does not apply?

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The next thing is that neighbouring countries will impose security restrictions on all your citizens, who could be smuggling.

This again assumes that your country is the only one that legalizes it.

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Then there are the clever chemists who will spend time and effort producing new drugs

Why is this a bad thing? Legalized and regulated drugs with production and quality standards would be safer.

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And the deaths of children who find the stash.

This is not the fault of the drug, this is simply bad parenting. There are lots of perfectly legal and lethal poisons around the house. Keep out of reach of children.

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And what about the people who produce these drugs? Are they then changed to respectable human beings and no longer the scum of the earth?

Think of prohibition-era bootleggers. Scumbag outlaws getting into gunfights with cops and rival cartels. Sometimes innocent civilians got caught in the crossfire. Now, when was the last time you heard of a gang of moonshine distillers gunning down the wife and kids of the local micro-brew pub owner? What changed? Alcohol was legalized. The secondary crime associated with illegal alcohol trafficking disappeared. Overnight.

So to answer your question in a word, Yes.

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And what of the health problems? What do we know of the long term ills of every possible drug?

What do we know of the long term ills of every possible food? I mean we seem to learn new stuff about eggs every other week, let alone complex artificial food additives and preservatives.

It's ridiculous to outlaw something that might be harmful  in the long term, particularly when the punishment is in actuality harmful both long and short term, ie., loss of career and future employment, family, friends, freedom, prison violence and rape.

Also, another flaw in your argument is the fact that extensive studies have been conducted on both the short and long term effects of the most popular drugs.

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If a person is stupid enough to risk their health, future and livelihood, are they wise enough to make the decision to start taking drugs?

People die doing stupid yet legal shit every day. We can't make everything potentially dangerous illegal. Because on the other side of that coin, plenty of people do drugs and continue to lead healthy, happy, and productive lives. Our last three presidents did cocaine, do you realize that?

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But the question is, "Why the hell would anyone want drugs?"

Why the hell would anyone buy a Justin Bieber album? It's none of your business what other people want, as long as it doesn't hurt others, you have no right to judge.

I've never done drugs, and I never would, but I believe 100% that they should be made legal. Our justice system spends way too much of our resources on something that is really a matter of personal choice. The one exception to this I believe would be cigarettes. I believe tobacco should be legal in smokeless forms but smoking cigarettes causes a lot of pollution which affects everyone. There are fewer toxins in marijuana and even if it were legal I doubt anyone would smoke 20-50 per day as they do with cigarettes.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 11:12:00 AM by joebbowers »
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 01:48:24 PM »
Countries that have legalised drugs have not had happy histories;

What do you mean by history? Before or after legalizing drugs?
After.

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families that have drug addicts suffer horrible anguish and worry;

Families that have motorcyclists or alcoholics suffer horrible anguish and worry. But I wouldn't make those things illegal.
The idea is to restrict the amount of unhappiness. At the moment we have "X", do you want "X+drugs"?

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even if heroin were legal and freely available, I would not want my children to have anything to do with it.
Motorcycles and alcohol are legal. I don't want my children to have anything to do with them.
I think you are deliberately missing the point. Motorbikes and alcohol are experiences that most of us survive. Drugs are quite different. A slow, vile way of the crumbling of the character; a person you loved, changing to someone you don't know and don't want to know.

I could compare it accurately to self-induced Alzheimer's.

Please see what I wrote above. Life is filled with danger, most of us make it through until something bad gets us. why do we want more things that cause misery.

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If you are a heroin addict, you would be restricted to never leaving your country,. otherwise you would face arrest.
Most people never leave their home country in their entire lifetime. Not a big concern. And if it were legalized in neighboring countries, even less of a concern.
So you are wanting universally free drugs? Yeah, good luck with that.

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Would you employ a crack addict?

No. Neither would I employ an alcoholic. Neither would I employ someone with facial tattoos. Neither would I employ someone who still lived with his parents and played Dungeons & Dragons.
right, you are agreeing that druggies are basically unemployable. So, what do we do? Let them starve because they made the decision?

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But I don't think it should be illegal to make bad choices that don't affect others.
You have just spent a lot of time telling me how motorbikes and drugs like alcohol do affect others.

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Drugs can alter behaviour to the danger of the user and others.
So can... almost everything. Music, movies, books, sports, love, sex, food, alcohol. I can give you examples of every one of those things altering someone's behavior leading to the endangerment of self or others, and not just isolated incidents.
I would be more interested in the percentage of cases of thoses who listen to music and then cause great harm to society.

Perhaps you could have a guess at the percentage?

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If someone drinks and gets into a fight, we punish them for the fight. If someone drinks and causes an accident, we punish them for the accident. We punish those who do not drink responsibility. It would be ridiculous to punish everyone who drinks as if they've already caused harm. Yet when it comes to other drugs, the same logic does not apply?
I'm wondering what country you're in. Here we have "Drunk and disorderly" offence, applicable before the fight occurs. Here we have breathalysers that stop drunks before they do damage.

Your Strawman, It would be ridiculous to punish everyone who drinks as if they've already caused harm. only makes me think that you have no real arguments. Have a look at the correlation between consumption and harm; and I mean harm is the sense of harm to the consumer and to society.

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The next thing is that neighbouring countries will impose security restrictions on all your citizens, who could be smuggling.

This again assumes that your country is the only one that legalizes it.
I've addressed this one.

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Then there are the clever chemists who will spend time and effort producing new drugs

Why is this a bad thing? Legalized and regulated drugs with production and quality standards would be safer.
Ah, all for State control, eh? No private enterprise? No "private drug pushers? Why? What's your problem?

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And the deaths of children who find the stash.
This is not the fault of the drug, this is simply bad parenting. There are lots of perfectly legal and lethal poisons around the house. Keep out of reach of children.
You're in another world, aren't you? How many accidental deaths through guns? How many cases of poisoning? And you are happy with more, just because you have a poorly thought out plan?

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And what about the people who produce these drugs? Are they then changed to respectable human beings and no longer the scum of the earth?
Think of prohibition-era bootleggers. Scumbag outlaws getting into gunfights with cops and rival cartels. Sometimes innocent civilians got caught in the crossfire. Now, when was the last time you heard of a gang of moonshine distillers gunning down the wife and kids of the local micro-brew pub owner? What changed? Alcohol was legalized. The secondary crime associated with illegal alcohol trafficking disappeared. Overnight.

Yes, we in Europe and Canada didn't listen to idiots. I earlier said that alcohol is a part of our culture and is, by and large enjoyed responsibly. After I have a pint of beer, I'm not basically a different person. I don't worry where my next beer is coming from. I don't worry that my boss will sack me. I don't worry that my veins might collapse or septicaemia might develop. Who pays the bill?

Does your insurance company cover cocaine addicts of meth users?

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And what of the health problems? What do we know of the long term ills of every possible drug?

What do we know of the long term ills of every possible food? I mean we seem to learn new stuff about eggs every other week, let alone complex artificial food additives and preservatives.
So far you have tried to equate heroin with motorbikes, and beer. Now you drag in eggs (eggs! FFS!) and make some vague and uncertain facts as if I would be impressed. Oh, and "complex artificial food additives and preservatives." Complex, eh? Well we can't possibly know anything about complex stuff! You must be right!!!!111! - Appeal to ignorance.

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If a person is stupid enough to risk their health, future and livelihood, are they wise enough to make the decision to start taking drugs?

People die doing stupid yet legal s**t every day. We can't make everything potentially dangerous illegal. Because on the other side of that coin, plenty of people do drugs and continue to lead healthy, happy, and productive lives. Our last three presidents did cocaine, do you realize that?
You have reverted to the argument that goes, "I once knew a man who was hit on the head with a hammer and survived, so we all should be able to hit people on the head with bricks."

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But the question is, "Why the hell would anyone want drugs?"

Why the hell would anyone buy a Justin Bieber album? It's none of your business what other people want, as long as it doesn't hurt others, you have no right to judge.
"as it doesn't hurt others," Just say that out loud. OK?

But it does hurt others doesn't it? Families are destroyed, personalities disintegrate, health issues arise. And to be honest, "Yes, it is my business. I live in this world - I see what drugs do."

Yes, I am bothered about introducing drugs into society, they are not like motorbikes at all, they are dissimilar to eggs.

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I've never done drugs, and I never would, but I believe 100% that they should be made legal.
The voice of age and experience.

Here drugs are categorised by the harm they do to society. They all harm society. Society only wants so much harm. That harm is provided by tobacco and alcohol. Yet you would have more?

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There are fewer toxins in marijuana and even if it were legal I doubt anyone would smoke 20-50 per day as they do with cigarettes.
And?

Every now and again, some poster comes up with this idea. "I know let's make all drugs legal." Not one of them has ever given any solid proposals or costed their scheme. Not one of them has ever thought, "Why introduce more s**t into the world?" None of them say, "Well if it all goes wrong, I'll take the blame. I'll admit that I was wrong and compensate all those people whose lives are now a mess and their families who are worried sick."

There is a better scheme. It worked to an extent in the UK. Do your research.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 01:54:14 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 03:42:19 PM »
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/files/Drug-Rankings-by-Harm.pdf

Actual effects of drugs don't really line up with their legalization status.  &) Such an unwarranted stigma on so many substances just because they're illegal. Without looking at this chart for example, would anyone have said they'd be more comfortable taking ecstasy than tobacco? Setting aside legality, tobacco marks worse in every category according to this chart.

I'd be interested to thoughts on drug law from anyone who supports the war on drugs or criminalization on here.

The quantification is an illusion of accuracy. This is simply taking a poll, a poll amongst learned people, but a poll none the less.

 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Barracuda

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 03:52:06 PM »
A poll among people who know what they're talking about. That is accurate.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2012, 06:35:18 PM »
When such a point is raised, the word "drugs" is often used to mean marijuana, but this is not the only drug.

Joebbowers makes an excellent point, and one I hadn't heard before. The other thing is that, culturally, tobacco is accepted, although less so recently where restrictions have been imposed. Culture has little to do with logic or common sense but is, nevertheless, a powerful thought that difficult to change.

Countries that have legalised drugs have not had happy histories; families that have drug addicts suffer horrible anguish and worry; even if heroin were legal and freely available, I would not want my children to have anything to do with it.

If you are a heroin addict, you would be restricted to never leaving your country,. otherwise you would face arrest.

Would you employ a crack addict?

Drugs can alter behaviour to the danger of the user and others.

The next thing is that neighbouring countries will impose security restrictions on all your citizens, who could be smuggling.

Then there are the clever chemists who will spend time and effort producing new drugs

And the deaths of children who find the stash.

And what about the people who produce these drugs? Are they then changed to respectable human beings and no longer the scum of the earth?

And what of the health problems? What do we know of the long term ills of every possible drug?

If a person is stupid enough to risk their health, future and livelihood, are they wise enough to make the decision to start taking drugs?

But the question is, "Why the hell would anyone want drugs?"
people who want drugs ANY drug can pick it up locally and with ease. The problem is the treatment of an addict as a social problem and not a medical one. The reason alcohol and tobbaco are legal is the revenue it brings in in tax and the ease of manufactur and regulation.

 Booze and smokes are illegal for minors,they can still get it easily. Pot,coke and heroin are illegal,these drugs are also readily available in almost any city......but like you said who the hell would even want to start any kind of drug?

 They had an interesting video I saw where 10 year olds walked up to teenagers and asked them for a light for their cigarette. Most of the teens went off on the 10 year olds about smoking. The young kids then handed the stunned teens an anti smoking pamphlet and walked away.

 I will try to find it
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2012, 06:42:36 PM »
here it is

There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2012, 09:55:02 PM »
Cool video 12 Monkeys .

I'm curious why people think that legalization, or as I prefer decriminalization of drug usage is going to make people want to do drugs? If you want to do drugs you will find them. If you don't want to do drugs you won't. Whether or not they are legalized or decriminalized isn't going to stop the families from the pain the feel watching their loved ones lives disappear.

I don't personally know what my opinion is on legalization of most drugs. I think pot should be legalized and regulated, and I think drug usage itself should be decriminalized. I don't really have a plan on how this would work but the prison system doesn't need to be filled with drug users who otherwise have broken no laws.

I've not thoroughly discussed this topic so I'm sure there are holes in my ideas. I tend not to discuss it because I don't want people thinking I'm some junky. I don't use drugs, but people tend to label you a liberal pot head if you mention the decriminalization of drugs.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 12:54:19 AM »
I get where you're coming from Graybeard, but it looks like you've bought into government anti-drug brainwashing propaganda pretty hard. I used to be the same way.

Countries that have legalised drugs have not had happy histories; [after legalization]

This is not necessarily true, for example drug use dropped in Portugal after legalization.[1]

The idea is to restrict the amount of unhappiness. At the moment we have "X", do you want "X+drugs"?
False. You seem to be forgetting that drugs are already widely available and used. So, the truth is that at the moment we already have "X+drugs". The war on drugs has not, will not, and can not stop people from using them. What I would like to see is realistic prevention goals based on education and ridiculous overly-harsh punishments dropped. Punishment does not prevent use, in fact drugs are more widely available and used in prison than on the outside. Treatment and counseling would be far more effective and cheaper, but the government wants you to believe that imprisonment is a better solution because our politicians personally benefit financially from their investments in privately run prisons.

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I think you are deliberately missing the point. Motorbikes and alcohol are experiences that most of us survive. Drugs are quite different.
False. Most people who do drugs survive. Marijuana in particular has never been cited as a direct cause of death, while more than 4,000 people per year die in motorcycle accidents in the US alone[2]. Want to talk about hard drugs? Sure, 8,000 people die from cocaine and heroin use every year. Compare that to the 80,000[3] that die from alcohol, and the 400,000[4] that die from smoking. (Or even more sickeningly, the 500,000 that die from obesity.)

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A slow, vile way of the crumbling of the character; a person you loved, changing to someone you don't know and don't want to know.
False. An over-dramatization. I could say the same thing about a minority of alcohol users, computer game addicts, or heavy metal music fans. This does not happen to the vast majority of drug users.

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I could compare it accurately to self-induced Alzheimer's.
False. There are many different kinds of drugs with a wide range of effects. Some negative, some positive, some long term, some temporary. Prolonged use of tofu can lead to memory loss and dimentia[5], and yet it is still legal.

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Life is filled with danger, most of us make it through until something bad gets us. why do we want more things that cause misery.
False. Yet again you are assuming that right now we are living in a world without drugs. The drugs are already here. I'm not suggesting we add more, I'm suggesting we reduce the misery in the world by eliminating unnecessary and demonstrably useless prosecution which destroys lives more than the drugs themselves.

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So you are wanting universally free legal drugs? Yeah, good luck with that.
Clarified that for you. And it's already heading that way. In the past 5 years, more than 20 countries have taken steps to decriminalize or legalize the possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use[6]. In most countries where it remains illegal, prison sentences have been replaced by fines, community service, and/or addiction counseling. Few countries still cling to harsh prison terms to deal with personal drug users.

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right, you are agreeing that druggies are basically unemployable.

False. Do you see how you moved the goalpost there, then claimed that I agreed with your refined statement? I said I would not hire a crack addict. I did not say they were unemployable. The fact is that many crack addicts are employed. Then you changed from "crack addicts" to "druggies" as if the two terms were interchangeable. They are not. Crack addicts are at the low end of the scale, but on the other end many drug users are highly functioning, capable, and successful. Our last 3 presidents for example.

Also, why are alcoholics and smokers employable but "druggies" are not? Not necessarily because of any effect of the drugs, but by the negative social stigma associated with drug use. If drugs were legalized, drug users would be seen no differently than smokers or drinkers, and they would be much more able to find work.

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So, what do we do? Let them starve because they made the decision?
First, you have assumed that I agree that all drug users are unemployable. I did not.
Second, you are forgetting that there are already starving drug addicts on the streets. Not only has your war on drugs failed to prevent that, but it also has created a situation where addicts are afraid to seek therapy and counseling for fear of prosecution, thereby damning them to a cycle of continued abuse.

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You have just spent a lot of time telling me how motorbikes and drugs like alcohol do affect others.
No I haven't, but that's an entirely seperate point. My point was that we shouldn't ban something that can harm an individual but in the vast majority of cases doesn't harm others.

In the case of things that can harm others but in the vast majority of cases doesn't, we should just punish those who do not act responsibly and harm others. We don't ban guns in the US, but that doesn't mean you are free to shoot people. We don't ban alcohol, but that doesn't mean you are allowed to drink and drive. Most gun owners do not shoot people and most drinkers do not drink and drive.

Drunk-driving accounts for more deaths than marijuana, cocaine, and heroin combined, yet alcohol is still legal. We could ban alcohol, but we tried that and it didn't work.

Banning drugs on the premise that drug use hurts the individual is a violation of personal freedom, and it doesn't prevent drug use.
Banning drugs on the premise that drug use hurts others is putting the cart before the horse, and it doesn't prevent drug use.

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I would be more interested in the percentage of cases of thoses who listen to music and then cause great harm to society.

I've got a bad knee, so I hope you don't mind if I just hang back here at the last goalpost alter behaviour to the danger of the user and others instead of hiking way down the field to your new goalpost cause great harm to society.

So an example of music altering behavior to the danger of the user and others -- mosh pits.

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I'm wondering what country you're in. Here we have "Drunk and disorderly" offence, applicable before the fight occurs. Here we have breathalysers that stop drunks before they do damage.

You don't punish for the drunk part, you punish for the disorderly part. And breathalysers stop drunks before they do damage? How nice it must be to live in a country with absolutely no drunk driving accidents. Which country is that by the way?

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Your Strawman, It would be ridiculous to punish everyone who drinks as if they've already caused harm. only makes me think that you have no real arguments. Have a look at the correlation between consumption and harm; and I mean harm is the sense of harm to the consumer and to society.

Do you honestly believe that all illegal drugs combined cause more damage than alcohol? Let alone alcohol and tobacco. My god, is the effect of government propaganda that strong that you really believe that?

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Ah, all for State control, eh? No private enterprise? No "private drug pushers? Why? What's your problem?

I do not understand what you're saying here. I clearly said the state should regulate the drugs, I did not say the state should produce them.

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You're in another world, aren't you? How many accidental deaths through guns? How many cases of poisoning? And you are happy with more, just because you have a poorly thought out plan?

Yet aaaaaaagain, you're presuming a world where drugs do not currently exist. Don't you think this is already happening now? Is it possible that with legalized and regulated drugs coming in child-proof containers instead of plastic baggies that fewer children would get poisoned?

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I earlier said that alcohol is a part of our culture and is, by and large enjoyed responsibly. After I have a pint of beer, I'm not basically a different person. I don't worry where my next beer is coming from. I don't worry that my boss will sack me. I don't worry that my veins might collapse or septicaemia might develop.

You are again painting broad with a broad brush dipped in confirmation bias.

Marijuana is a part of our culture and is by and large enjoyed responsibly.

Many alcohlics do become basically a different person when they drink. They do worry where their next beer is coming from. They do worry that their bosses will sack them.

Many drug users do not become basically a different person when they use. They do not worry where their next hit is coming from. They do not worry that their bosses will sack them.

Only the hardest drugs lead to the kind of crippling addiction you describe, and only by the most irresponsible of users. Even then, is it society's responsibility to protect these people from themselves when we don't protect others from other kinds of self-destructive behavior. And I use the word 'protect' loosly, if destroying a live by imprisonment can be called protection.

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Who pays the bill? Does your insurance company cover cocaine addicts of meth users?
Who pays the bill? We fucking do. Who do you think pays for inmates' medical care in prisons? Legalize it and we wouldn't have to! We would also save $50 billion per year housing and feeding them.

If it were legal, it would shift the burden of addict medical care cost to the addict himself. Does insurance cover the health problems of alcoholics, smokers, fatties, and adrenaline junkies? If so it should cover other forms of intentional avoidable personal health abuse too.

Would that drive up the cost of insurance for everyone else? Not by much. Do you have any concept of the astronomical cost to deal with tobacco and obesity related illnesses? I'll give you a hint, it dwarfs the cost of all illegal-drug related medical care about like the Sun dwarfs Mars.

Can't afford insurance? Well then you would be in the same boat as everyone else who doesn't have insurance. Get help from a charity, friends and family, go into debt, or die. People die every day because they can't afford medical care, and not just "druggies".

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So far you have tried to equate heroin with motorbikes, and beer. Now you drag in eggs (eggs! FFS!) and make some vague and uncertain facts as if I would be impressed. Oh, and "complex artificial food additives and preservatives." Complex, eh? Well we can't possibly know anything about complex stuff! You must be right!!!!111! - Appeal to ignorance.

And your statement "What do we know of the long term ills of every possible drug?" is not an appeal to ignorance? Which is why I threw another appeal to ignorance about food back at you, which obviously went over your head.

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You have reverted to the argument that goes, "I once knew a man who was hit on the head with a hammer and survived, so we all should be able to hit people on the head with bricks."

False. My argument is that most drug users, including the past 3 presidents, have gone on to live happy, successful and productive lives.

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But it does hurt others doesn't it? Families are destroyed, personalities disintegrate, health issues arise.

No, not usually. It does not hurt others in every case, only extreme cases. The same could be said of alcohol.

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Here drugs are categorised by the harm they do to society. They all harm society. Society only wants so much harm. That harm is provided by tobacco and alcohol. Yet you would have more?

So many flaws in that statement.

First, you are, yet again, assuming a world where drugs do not currently exist. You are assuming I am suggesting we add something to society that is not already here. I am not. You are assuming that legalizing drugs would increase the harm to society. That has not been proven.

You are also ignoring all of the harm that the war on drugs itself has caused, such as empowering gangs, funnelling vast amounts of cash to corrupt governments where drugs are produced, violence against police and civilians, over a million prisoners in the US alone serving time for drug charges at a cost of over $50 billion per year not to mention the loss of a million workers in the work force and their contribution to the tax base. Legalize drugs and that all goes away overnight.

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Every now and again, some poster comes up with this idea. "I know let's make all drugs legal." Not one of them has ever given any solid proposals or costed their scheme.

There are many well-written and thouroughly researched proposals to legalize drugs by people with more knowledge of the subject than you or I. Former US surgeon general Jocelyn Elders for example is in favor of the legalization of marijuana.[7] the Transform Drug Policy Foundaton has some very good evidence-based research to support legalization, and their proposals have gained support from dozens of MPs, MEPs, AMs, Peers, Civil servants, Parliamentary committees in the UK.[8] I can't force you to read them, but don't try to claim that they don't exist.

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Not one of them has ever thought, "Why introduce more s**t into the world?"

Right. Because right now drugs don't exist.

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None of them say, "Well if it all goes wrong, I'll take the blame. I'll admit that I was wrong and compensate all those people whose lives are now a mess and their families who are worried sick."

Explain to me why tobacco and alcohol are legal, in the context of your statement. Who takes the blame for those deaths, who admits they were wrong?

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There is a better scheme. It worked to an extent in the UK. Do your research.
Be more specific. What are you referring to? Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union. Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.[9] I'm not sure the UK is a model for anyone to follow.
 1. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motorcycle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
 3. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0110_binge_drinking.html/
 4. www.tobaccofreekids.org/research/factsheets/pdf/0072.pdf
 5. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/07/24/why-tofu-wrecks-your-brain.aspx
 6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country
 7. http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/18/former.surgeon.general.marijuana/index.html
 8. http://www.tdpf.org.uk/MediaNews_Reform-supporters_Politics.htm
 9. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 01:13:57 AM by joebbowers »
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Offline Samothec

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 02:34:56 AM »
I came up with the idea that I call the Preferred Toxins Act. All drugs are legal. You go to a pharmacy and sign the Preferred Toxins Waiver where you acknowledge that you take full and complete responsibility for any and all drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, that you self-prescribe and consume. That means showing up for work on time and not impaired. That means not injuring others due to your toxin use. That means not damaging property. And so on.

This allows the drugs to be produced in laboratories making sure other toxins are not in your toxin of choice and consistent quality and quantity. This allows taxing of the drugs sold.

Will there be problems? Yes. However I expect fewer problems than we currently have. Plus, it undercuts many criminal organizations while increasing the tax money taken in.


As for the comparison with obesity – there is a huge problem (pun intended) with the comparison. Ending one's addiction to alcohol, tobacco, or any recreational drug you care to name is easy compared with fighting against an addiction to sugar/carbohydrates. No one needs to consume alcohol, tobacco, or any recreational drug on a daily basis to live - like they need to eat. Now, go into your grocery store and start looking at labels. Easily 90% of the food in any grocery store contains carbohydrates. Cheeses and most - not all - meats are the only consistent exceptions.

Problems: Calorie limiting dieting (if it goes beyond a slight reduction) induces the body to start storing every possible calorie in reaction to prevent starvation. Low fat foods have more carbohydrates in them to make them taste better. The body can easily convert carbohydrates into fat.

These problems have caused much of the obesity problem in America – although there are other factors of course. So, please stop comparing the easy to end addictions with obesity. Does this sound like hyperbole? Yes, if you haven't bothered to examine all the facts.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 02:37:12 AM by Samothec »
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 03:16:50 AM »
I lost 120 pounds in about a year when I finally made up my mind to do it. I have no sympathy for fatties. I think it's all excuses. Eat fewer calories and exercise more. It's not rocket science.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Samothec

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 03:58:08 AM »
I lost 120 pounds in about a year when I finally made up my mind to do it. I have no sympathy for fatties. I think it's all excuses. Eat fewer calories and exercise more. It's not rocket science.

It's pretty clear you didn't have a problem with carbs as some people do.

But you have it only partially right - exercising more. But not eating fewer calories unless the person is actually consuming too many which is only true of some obese people. Some people need to increase the number of calories but with healthier foods. You are correct in that it isn't rocket science, it is biology which is still guesswork in some areas, unlike rocket science.

Do you feel every addict just making excuses? Do you understand that in addition to the addictive nature of what people ingest (in whatever fashion) there is a psychological aspect to many (all?) addictions? It doesn't sound like you do. It sounds like you were overweight because you were consuming too many calories for your activity level. If someone needs 1200 calories and is only eating 1200 calories then cutting down is going to be dangerous to their health. Change their food intake, sure, but not reduce it - that would be stupid.

I want to say more but prior to this post you didn't understand the complexities of the subject so I'll wait to see if you do some research to better understand this.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 04:12:42 AM »
Sorry, but being fat is a choice, just like smoking or drinking.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 08:08:04 AM »
A poll among people who know what they're talking about. That is accurate.

Why?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Barracuda

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 10:00:41 AM »
Why?
know what they're talking about
If you've got something you think is better, put it out there.

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2012, 10:03:34 AM »
GrayBeard, do you plan on responding to my post?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2012, 08:21:41 PM »
Why?
know what they're talking about
If you've got something you think is better, put it out there.

You are quite getting what I am saying. There is a poll, a poll amongst the learned sure, but it is still just a damn poll of opinion. These numbers are based on opinion, but they are being treated as if they are science. This isn't science, this is a popularity contest. A combination of an appeal to authority, the democratic fallacy, and appeal to popularity...all done to double digits after the decimal point accuracy to distract you from noticing it.

Just because it may confirm your or my feeling on the matter is irrelevant


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Barracuda

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2012, 09:28:44 PM »
Appeal to authority is a lame reason to label something fallacious. Unless you or I have relevant scientific education in the matter, which we don't, looking to a legit authority's opinion on the matter is the best we've got. Everything damn thing about science you have learned was put into textbooks because it won a popularity contest among scientists.

If you even wikipedia "Argument from authority" you'll see that it is just a type of argument, not necessarily a fallacy. But you shouldn't even need wikipedia to tell you that, it should be common sense, unless you were just grasping at any reason to call my OP fallacious because you think illegal drugs are icky.

Offline Samothec

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 01:43:06 AM »
Sorry, but being fat is a choice, just like smoking or drinking.

Just like pedophilia. Wait, I said that wrong. Unlike pedophilia, where no genetic cause has been found, genes have been found that cause a predisposition to being overweight and others that cause a susceptibility to addictive behaviors.

Just because you may have chosen to be fat for a while doesn't mean that is true for everyone. Having admitted to being fat in the past, you do realize that is a direct conclusion from your claims: that you chose to be fat. I doubt that's true but only you can say (with regards to yourself only).

There is another problem with your comparison which you should have realized from my previous posts. Being fat is not an activity like smoking or drinking. An appropriate comparable activity would be eating. And being fat would be comparable to having cirrhosis of the liver or lung cancer. But let's circle back around to the activity - eating. Again, all people need to eat to live while they do not need to smoke or drink alcohol to live.

If you want to restate what you said indicating it is pure opinion, fine, that would be accurate. Otherwise, you need to do a lot of research.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2012, 05:42:43 AM »
Sorry, but being fat is a choice, just like smoking or drinking.
Yep.  You're right.  I'm fat because it's such an amazing thing.  Everything is so much easier when one is fat.  And people are just drawn to fatties.  It's easy to make friends, and dating?  Don't get me started.  Why can't the women leave me alone?  I'm not a machine.  I choose to be fat because being fat is so much fun.  I wouldn't lose a pound if you put a gun to my head.

I too lost 130 lbs in one year (swear to god).  Gained 2/3 back over the course of the next eight years.  You may want to put a hold on the judgement and arrogance.  Unless whatever made you 130 pounds overweight has changed, you're likely to fall into the same pattern.

One last thing:  Fatties don't want your sympathyPeople would appreciate some empathy however.  But because you're so awesome now, you don't have to bother pretending to care about others.

I loved your War on Drugs post above, and I give you props for that, but this?  My god man...

Offline Mooby

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2012, 07:32:06 AM »
As someone who's admitted a lot of detox patients, I can say that the crack addicts and alcoholics are the most decompensated. Some of the opiate users can hide it and actually hold jobs, while the alcoholics tend to blow their employment rather quickly. Alcohol and benzos are also the only drugs whose withdrawals can kill you.

Pretty much all of them smoke marijuana, but then again they usually smoke tobacco and drink coffee, too. Yes, I lumped these together for a reason: they make detox more annoying, but that's about it.

Oh, and the majority of our detoxers are on disability.
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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2012, 10:37:05 AM »
Sorry, but being fat is a choice, just like smoking or drinking.
Yep.  You're right.  I'm fat because it's such an amazing thing.  Everything is so much easier when one is fat.  And people are just drawn to fatties.  It's easy to make friends, and dating?  Don't get me started.  Why can't the women leave me alone?  I'm not a machine.  I choose to be fat because being fat is so much fun.  I wouldn't lose a pound if you put a gun to my head.

I didn't say it was a good choice.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Interesting - Properties of Popular Drugs
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2012, 12:17:21 PM »
I get where you're coming from Graybeard, but it looks like you've bought into government anti-drug brainwashing propaganda pretty hard. I used to be the same way.
Thank you for telling me what is in my mind and what I know. You sir, are an arsehole and probably irredeemably so. (If you think you have annoyed me by your immature stupidity, you have. You may apologise when you see fit.)

[quote ]This is not necessarily true, for example drug use dropped in Portugal after legalization.[/quote]Switzerland, and Sweden have repealed similar laws and now The Netherlands are restricting access to “coffee bars” to Dutch nationals only.

You Portuguese example is flawed, I am not even going to click the link. Look for information on how various offences and definitions have been reclassified.

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The idea is to restrict the amount of unhappiness. At the moment we have "X", do you want "X+drugs"?
False. You seem to be forgetting that drugs are already widely available and used.
Another miraculous insight into my mind. You will be able to tell yourself what I think about the rest of this trite argument.
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Treatment and counseling would be far more effective and cheaper, but the government wants you to believe that imprisonment is a better solution because our politicians personally benefit financially from their investments in privately run prisons.
You keep saying what you think that I think – If I ever find anyone who posts something more mistaken, I will write to you so you don’t feel so bad about being the bottom of my “People with shit for brains” list.

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I think you are deliberately missing the point. Motorbikes and alcohol are experiences that most of us survive. Drugs are quite different.
False. Most people who do drugs survive. Marijuana in particular has never been cited as a direct cause of death,
Bob Marley, almost certainly.
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while more than 4,000 people per year die in motorcycle accidents in the US
Why are you concentrating on marijuana. Why are you not telling of the infinite happiness and fulfilment that heroin, crack and meth brings?
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Want to talk about hard drugs? Sure, 8,000 people die from cocaine and heroin use every year. Compare that to the 80,000[1] that die from alcohol, and the 400,000[2] that die from smoking. (Or even more sickeningly, the 500,000 that die from obesity.)
 1. http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0110_binge_drinking.html/
 2. www.tobaccofreekids.org/research/factsheets/pdf/0072.pdf
As I said x deaths without drugs, X + Y deaths with drugs – you say, Everyone should have access to drugs – tell me, what does that do to the deaths from drugs figures?

A: They go down
B: They stay the same
C: They go up.

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A slow, vile way of the crumbling of the character; a person you loved, changing to someone you don't know and don't want to know.
False. An over-dramatization. I could say the same thing about a minority of alcohol users, computer game addicts, or heavy metal music fans. This does not happen to the vast majority of drug users.
Look, it is either false OR you could say the same (i.e. I am correct) about other things.

Which is it?

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Quote
I could compare it accurately to self-induced Alzheimer's.
False. There are many different kinds of drugs with a wide range of effects. Some negative, some positive, some long term, some temporary. Prolonged use of tofu can lead to memory loss and dimentia[3], and yet it is still legal.
 3. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/07/24/why-tofu-wrecks-your-brain.aspx
Yeah, there’s a big tofu problem… You are back again saying, “There are dangerous things in the world, let’s have some more dangerous things.”

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Quote
Life is filled with danger, most of us make it through until something bad gets us. why do we want more things that cause misery.
False. Yet again you are assuming that right now we are living in a world without drugs.
Once more! You can see into my mind! 
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The drugs are already here. I'm not suggesting we add more,
Hold on to that thought for a moment
Quote
I'm suggesting we reduce the misery in the world by eliminating unnecessary and demonstrably useless prosecution which destroys lives more than the drugs themselves.
Can you see how those things are not linked?

No… obviously you can’t. OK. Here is the worst case scenario.
Drugs are illegal but the pusher stands near the school gates attracting young  future addicts. Police come; arrest him; case closed, message sent out.

Your idea:
Drugs are legal and the pusher stands near the school gates attracting young  future addicts.

Whose lifetime of persecution is involved?

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Quote
So you are wanting universally free legal drugs? Yeah, good luck with that.
Clarified that for you. And it's already heading that way. In the past 5 years, more than 20 countries have taken steps to decriminalize or legalize the possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use

Tell me the law on supplying cannabis in those countries.

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right, you are agreeing that druggies are basically unemployable.

False. Do you see how you moved the goalpost there, then claimed that I agreed with your refined statement? I said I would not hire a crack addict.
Why wouldn’t you employ a crack addict? What have you got against freely available drugs?


 
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many drug users are highly functioning, capable, and successful. Our last 3 presidents for example.
Ah, yes, Mr Bush…  highly functioning, capable, and successful.

Quote
Also, why are alcoholics and smokers employable but "druggies" are not?
Alcoholics employable?  Smoking has no known effect of the thought process or perception of reality.

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If drugs were legalized, drug users would be seen no differently than smokers or drinkers, and they would be much more able to find work.
Which one, smokers or drinkers? (Don’t forget, you wrote “alcoholic” above and now are writing “drinker”.)

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Quote
So, what do we do? Let them starve because they made the decision?
First, you have assumed that I agree that all drug users are unemployable. I did not.
Second, you are forgetting that there are already starving drug addicts on the streets.
Not in the UK.
Quote
Not only has your war on drugs …
That’s it. I’m out of here.

Look, it isn’t my war, I don’t think as you think I do and I have just reached the point at which I have grown fed up of you thinking you know my mind.

Basically, your facile thought patterns on this subject paint you as someone who has little or no intelligence or experience and who laps up confirmation bias, which is strange, as elsewhere you seem quite bright.

Yes there are better ways of dealing with the situation. Give some thought to why yours are not implemented. Give some thought as to how you explain to a mother of a 12 year old that she should worry about her son who will grow up to be a really nice young man even if he has a heavy heroin habit.

I haven’t even started on synthetic drugs far more addictive that heroin; drugs that you think are perfectly OK to be freely distributed.

You know where “the drug problem” is; it is in the West. Why is this? What is the real problem? Why do people want them?[4] Who are the people who start taking them? Does a government have any responsibility for what its citizens consume? Why is there a FDA? Why are there rules on road safety? Why is there a fire service? Are hospitals over-worked? Do doctors and nurses really have to have qualifications? Who picks up the tab for the victims of society? What responsibility do we have for other people who just happen to share the country with us?

If I have come across angry, it is because, as I said at the beginning, I am – and you caused it. There are people who think like you and they are dangerous to society as a whole and to the vulnerable in particular.
 4. If you have answered this one somewhere below, count it as a waste of time as I have now stopped reading
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”