Author Topic: What were God's last words?  (Read 4046 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2012, 07:54:56 AM »
ok, I'll let you title the thread and start it.
no need to start with a wall of text.
maybe a few sentences on why you believe in god and/jesus and they don't even have to be the best argument you can think of just something to get us started...
ok?

Created new thread in 'General Religious Discussion'

Tried to link to it without success.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 07:56:34 AM by magicmiles »
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2012, 09:51:30 AM »
What do the gospel accounts we have today contain which might point to a motivation for their fakery?

It depends upon where you start your assumption chain. Galatians gives me some clues, but this assumes Galatians is not a fake. In Galatians, we can see a division in the church; 3 divisions, in fact: James, Peter of Antioch and Paul.

James: follow the whole Jewish law
Peter: follow the important parts of Jewish law
Paul: follow a single law, and worship Jesus as a God.

Now, it seems to me that for Jesus to have left such a divided legacy, he must not have had much authority. This could be the origin of the "prophet is not taken seriously in his home town" syndrome. Indian fakirs are not taken seriously in their home towns, either, because the locals have seen their bad sides. In Galatians, we get a picture of a group, trying to decide how they should proceed, using intellectual reasoning, rather than a group which blindly follows Jesus, because they witnessed God.

Unfortunately, there are a few options, as to why someone would invent a resurrection
- grief at losing a figurehead
- retaliation at the Jews for killing Jesus
- the body was stolen, or was lost (discount the whole Tomb saga as unlikely)
- competition for authority

You will notice that Paul trumps others by claiming to channel Jesus, and gets a new series of revelations from him; then even gets published, as if he is Jesus. Perhaps he is trumping those who claimed to have witnessed Jesus after crucifixion? And perhaps those people claimed to see various visions of Jesus, to trump Pharisiac Jews and those who were forming an original church. You can see an echo, back at Paul, from Matthew: "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Notice how Paul is the only one to have fulfilled this prophecy, because Acts says he did miracles. We have a Jesus in outback QLD, (Kingaroy)  , but I bet he hedges away from healing amputees, so he is not deceiving any but the very stupid.

Whoever can fake up the best story, with the most authority is going to make the most popular sect. It's evolution.

Quote
A resurrection is certainly world-changing. The world did change.

And the world changed when an Arab pedophile channeled Allah, and said he was reading from the crystal books in heaven. He proved that the Quran was from God, by challenging anyone to come up with a more perfect book. (And you thought the Bible was impressive.) Evolution and ignorance ensures that the most addictive crap always wins.

A fake resurrection is just as world changing. Mohammed was proud that he did no miracles - regarding them as crass.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #147 on: June 23, 2012, 01:37:27 PM »
Read on its own, goop indeed. Have you taken the time to look into context and how the passages quoted fit in with the entire bible?

Sorry but this caught my eye, a quick question before I begin addressing your last post to me. So, I'd like you to look at these examples on their own and then alongside with their context:

• God asks a man to kill his son (not to test this man's morality, but his obedience). - Genesis 22
• God dashes down every Egyptian firstborn. - Exodus 12
• God gambles a man's family to death. - Job 1
• God's law involves chopping a woman's hand off. - Deuteronomy 25
• God sacrifices Jephthah's daughter. - Judges 11
• God will murder infants in front of their parents. - Isaiah 13

We both agree that these verses read on their own are disgusting. Now view them in their full context. I just did. Nothing changed. It's still a selfabsorbed war god running wild in the Middle East. With the addition of the context, did those verses somehow become divinely inspired and holy for you?

I hope you don't reply with something along the lines of "Well, that was then, you'd have to understand the culture" because that would mean God's morality is subjective to change (meaning he is imperfect) since modern humans look at some of these verses with moral outrage. So should we still be chopping off women's hands like God commanded? Or has human morality surpassed the morality of the ancient Yahweh?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #148 on: June 24, 2012, 12:04:08 AM »

Late to the party but...
If a being or force from another universe (presumably with its own different laws there) attempted to come a knockin'... insert itself into our universe, the laws of our universe would be imposed upon it. 

I don't see how you can be certain about that. 

I explain how I'm certain about that in the third paragraph.

Quote

To oversimplify:  If you come from a town where it's permissible to drink alcohol on a public street, and you visit another town, and do so where that is not allowed, you'll get nicked.  Your hometown laws do not follow you to other towns. 

We aren't talking about man-made laws. You're right, that very much over-simplified it.

Needlessly snotty

Quote

The more serious answer however, is that IF that being WAS able to take its own laws and impose them on our universe, we would see things that science could not explain, things not predicted by our working theories, things that could only be termed 'supernatural'.

Science apparently can't explain these things: (There are probably more. I just did a quick google search. I haven't done any background reading on any of these. I am not very good with science. But they seem interesting.)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524911.600-13-things-that-do-not-make-sense.html

First, your link sucks.  I tried reading some of the items, and kept getting pop ups.  I didn't get past the first page.  If you think those items are so convincing, please just list them.

Second, those things that science cannot or have not explained are not evidence of the supernatural.  If you're taking the position that they are, because these things haven't been explained or adequately explained to your liking, then you are ignoring every instance so far where the supernatural has been explained by science.  From thunder and lightning, to the movement of the stars and planets, to earth quakes... all once attributed to gods, or the wrath of your god, and proven by comparatively rudimentary science to be of natural causes.  You point to thirteen examples where science has not offered a definitive explanation, and say 'See?  Science can't explain certain things about the natural universe and therefore these things are evidence of the supernatural'.  You're either thick or dishonest.

So many posts and you remain in every way, unmoved.  I predict you will not be moved, no matter how convincing the arguments, therefore you are beyond reason, and so engaging you is a waste of time.  Bye-eeee

Offline magicmiles

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #149 on: June 24, 2012, 01:43:09 AM »
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 01:44:53 AM by magicmiles »
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #150 on: June 24, 2012, 01:47:47 AM »
I'll be a bit slower this next week in responding, but will get there bit by bit. Thanks.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #151 on: June 25, 2012, 09:37:07 PM »
Now, it seems to me that for Jesus to have left such a divided legacy, he must not have had much authority.

Each Gospel details many ways in which Jesus demonstrated His complete authority. The problem was not with His authority, the problem was (is) with sinful humans.


In Galatians, we get a picture of a group, trying to decide how they should proceed, using intellectual reasoning, rather than a group which blindly follows Jesus, because they witnessed God.

Never underestimate just how much humans are ruled by self-interest. Look at Peter, he walked with Jesus on the water, was told by Jesus he would deny him, was appalled at the thought and then did it with a curse.


Unfortunately, there are a few options, as to why someone would invent a resurrection
- grief at losing a figurehead

sort of contradicts your suggestion that Jesus lacked authority/charisma/mojo


- retaliation at the Jews for killing Jesus

Yeah, telling a lie that could be debunked easily, that'll learn em


- the body was stolen, or was lost (discount the whole Tomb saga as unlikely)

that's a popular theory, but it doesn't explain the many sightings of Jesus afterwards.


- competition for authority

Sure, right up to the point of being persecuted.


You will notice that Paul trumps others by claiming to channel Jesus, and gets a new series of revelations from him; then even gets published, as if he is Jesus. Perhaps he is trumping those who claimed to have witnessed Jesus after crucifixion? And perhaps those people claimed to see various visions of Jesus, to trump Pharisiac Jews and those who were forming an original church. You can see an echo, back at Paul, from Matthew: "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Paul didn't claim to be Christ. You used the word 'perhaps' twice, this is hardly convincing, AH.


We have a Jesus in outback QLD, (Kingaroy)  , but I bet he hedges away from healing amputees, so he is not deceiving any but the very stupid.

Excellent point. (although Kingaroy is hardly 'outback')


Whoever can fake up the best story, with the most authority is going to make the most popular sect. It's evolution.


So can I hold you to that when Atheists outnumber theists?

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #152 on: June 25, 2012, 09:39:38 PM »
Zankuu, I will get to your post when I can.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #153 on: June 26, 2012, 10:31:42 AM »
A created being questioning it's creators competency is the ultimate in deluded arrogance.

But all too prevalent. Beginning with Adam.

Is there any story you could imagine reading in the Bible about its god's actions that would appear incompetent to you?  Court is wide open:  Any idea at all.

I'll take a swing myself.  Let's say there was a story in which YHWH wants a man to love him, so he kills that man's family and gives him leprosy, then tells him that he's been condemned to Hell.

Would you judge that to be incompetent?  Or would that judgment be too arrogant to consider?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.