Author Topic: What were God's last words?  (Read 3759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2012, 02:32:53 AM »
If knowledge existed which proved irrevocably that Jesus did not live, die and live again - then that would be that. I wouldn't cling to 'feelings' just to be stubborn.

Knowledge does exist that proves irrevocably that there was no magical man. The fact that it's impossible proves that beyond all doubt. What you're doing is called "not thinking about one's beliefs". Your logic center shuts down when it comes to truths that make you uncomfortable. If anyone were to claim that they were Jesus and others would claim that they saw him perform miracles, you wouldn't believe it. Because it's just not possible.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2012, 02:50:01 AM »
If knowledge existed which proved irrevocably that Jesus did not live, die and live again - then that would be that. I wouldn't cling to 'feelings' just to be stubborn.

The fact that it's impossible proves that beyond all doubt.

not possible within the natural word we live in, and in which we only have knowledge of. You can't deny the possibility that a supernatural exists.

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #89 on: June 22, 2012, 02:57:02 AM »
not possible within the natural word we live in, and in which we only have knowledge of.

In short, not possible.

You can't deny the possibility that a supernatural exists.

Depends on what you mean by "supernatural". A place where our laws of physics don't apply? True. I can't deny that. Parallel universes and all that. Our own laws of physics being broken right here in our universe? False. I can and do deny that.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #90 on: June 22, 2012, 03:24:34 AM »
You can't deny the possibility that a supernatural exists.

Depends on what you mean by "supernatural". A place where our laws of physics don't apply? True. I can't deny that. Parallel universes and all that. Our own laws of physics being broken right here in our universe? False. I can and do deny that.


If you concede that there might be more out there than we can discern on our own, then I really don't see how you can rule out the theoretical possibility of God without being contradictory.

And if God created the laws of physics....then those laws are answerable to Him, not vice-versa.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2012, 03:29:11 AM »
If you concede that there might be more out there than we can discern on our own, then I really don't see how you can rule out the theoretical possibility of God without being contradictory.

Parallel universes. As in "not in our own, because everything in our own universe must follow the same laws of physics".

And if God created the laws of physics....then those laws are answerable to Him, not vice-versa.

Laws are not answerable to anyone. They are not sentient. They exist and were most certainly not created.

EDIT: See what I mean about your logic center shutting down? You, like so many other people, cannot accept truths that you do not like, even if they are blindingly obvious.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 03:35:37 AM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #92 on: June 22, 2012, 03:50:18 AM »
Let me get this straight - you concede that there may possibly be more out there than we can see, hear, taste, feel or smell. But you refute the possibility that any aspect of that 'unknown' could be the original creator or cause of the universe we inhabit?

Have I understood correctly?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2012, 03:55:33 AM »
<snip>
Have I understood correctly?

No, and I'm starting to think that either my English skills aren't as good as I thought or your brain really can't handle truths that you don't like.

Let me try it in bold.
It is entirely possible that there are parallel universes to our own where our laws of physics do not exist. However, everything in those universes and in our own must follow the same laws of physics. As such, there is no "supernatural" in the sense that, within each universe, all things must follow the same laws of physics.

Is that better?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2012, 04:06:46 AM »
However, everything in those universes and in our own must follow the same laws of physics. As such, there is no "supernatural" in the sense that, within each universe, all things must follow the same laws of physics.[/b]

Is that better?

It clarifies what I consider an illogical POV.

What makes you so certain that any universe outside our own, which we have no knowledge of, must follow the same laws of physics as this universe?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline burnish

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Darwins +1/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2012, 04:11:30 AM »
What were God’s last words?

I’m not looking for scripture detailing Christ’s crucifixion on the cross- that’s standard biblical knowledge. What I’m looking for is scripture involving the last words Yahweh vocally boomed down from the sky prior to his disappearance in the Old Testament. It’s surprising this topic isn’t discussed more often in Christian circles. In fact, I had a hard time finding any piece of information even closely related to this question. I would think it was important.

Since this was Yahweh’s grandiose exit in his theatrical finale, I’m expecting an earth-shatteringly profound and enlightening message.

I realize you're looking for something from the Old Testament, but I thought I would mention that the Father spoke these words in the New Testament:

Matthew 17:5

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2012, 04:14:45 AM »
What makes you so certain that any universe outside our own, which we have no knowledge of, must follow the same laws of physics as this universe?

Last attempt at clarifying before I get bored with this:
Each universe has its own laws of physics. Everything in every individual universe must follow the same laws of physics, which depend on the universe they're in.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #97 on: June 22, 2012, 04:16:33 AM »
Welcome to the forum, Burnish.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #98 on: June 22, 2012, 04:18:02 AM »
What makes you so certain that any universe outside our own, which we have no knowledge of, must follow the same laws of physics as this universe?

Last attempt at clarifying before I get bored with this:
Each universe has its own laws of physics. Everything in every individual universe must follow the same laws of physics, which depend on the universe they're in.

Evidence?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #99 on: June 22, 2012, 04:19:22 AM »
Evidence?

That was a hypothetical that assumed parallel universes existed. Nothing more. If you want evidence that the laws of physics are absolute, you need only to look around yourself.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #100 on: June 22, 2012, 04:25:14 AM »
Evidence?

That was a hypothetical that assumed parallel universes existed. Nothing more. If you want evidence that the laws of physics are absolute, you need only to look around yourself.

And in this hypothetical, why can't there exist something which tramples all over our universe?


The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline burnish

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Darwins +1/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #101 on: June 22, 2012, 04:27:07 AM »
Welcome to the forum, Burnish.

Thank you.  Nice to meet you. :)

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #102 on: June 22, 2012, 04:27:19 AM »
And in this hypothetical, why can't there exist something which tramples all over our universe?

In that hypothetical there could be unicorns for all I care. It's just a hypothetical. You asked, and so I answered.


magicmiles, do you have amnesia or Alzheimer's or something similar? Because it seems like we're just going around in circles because you can't keep a conversation in your head for more than a couple of hours.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #103 on: June 22, 2012, 04:43:52 AM »


In that hypothetical there could be unicorns for all I care. It's just a hypothetical. You asked, and so I answered.

OK, you still haven't really answered the question have you?

The question is this: Why is it impossible for there to exist, in a universe which we cannot discern, a force which not only isn't subject to the laws of our universe but actually created them?

I have re-read all your responses. You seemed to be claiming that nothing in any parallel universe could over-ride own universe's laws. When challenged why, you state that it's all just hypothetical. 

Do you want to just concede that it is theoretically possible for something, God or not, to be outside the laws of our universe?


magicmiles, do you have amnesia or Alzheimer's or something similar? Because it seems like we're just going around in circles because you can't keep a conversation in your head for more than a couple of hours.

Not at all. You simply have answered poorly.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10854
  • Darwins +280/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #104 on: June 22, 2012, 04:56:59 AM »
The question is this: Why is it impossible for there to exist, in a universe which we cannot discern, a force which not only isn't subject to the laws of our universe but actually created them?

You know, the fact that you have to ask this tells me that you were lying when you said this:
I have re-read all your responses. You seemed to be claiming that nothing in any parallel universe could over-ride own universe's laws. When challenged why, you state that it's all just hypothetical.
I gave you evidence for the fact that the laws of physics are absolute. The universe is exactly the way it should be if they were.

Do you want to just concede that it is theoretically possible for something, God or not, to be outside the laws of our universe?

I already explained why that's possible, but not in our universe. If you existed in a universe where our laws of physics don't exist, you would be "outside" the laws of our universe. But you would not be able to create it or change it (our universe) in any way that nobody else could, simply because you would still be subjected to the same laws as everyone else in it.


I'm bored with your amnesia now, so this is my last reply to you. Enjoy. I'm sure you'll still "misunderstand" everything I've said, but whatever. Probably gonna smite me too.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #105 on: June 22, 2012, 05:12:49 AM »

Do you want to just concede that it is theoretically possible for something, God or not, to be outside the laws of our universe?

If you existed in a universe where our laws of physics don't exist, you would be "outside" the laws of our universe. But you would not be able to create it or change it (our universe) in any way that nobody else could, simply because you would still be subjected to the same laws as everyone else in it.

This is what you have repeatedly failed to back up with anything more than repetition. You haven't explained why this (acknowledged) theoretically possible being or force from a parallel universe would be subject to our natural laws if it came a knockin'




I'm bored with your amnesia now, so this is my last reply to you.

Sweet! I love getting the last word in. A rare treat for a married man....
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Zankuu

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2091
  • Darwins +127/-2
  • Gender: Male
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #106 on: June 22, 2012, 05:58:57 AM »
Jesus used whatever the aramaic words for 'born again' are, not the aramaic words for 'born from above'.

No, if Jesus meant “from above” he would have plainly said “from above” in Aramaic, because that word has no dual meaning. Whoever translated this conversation from Aramaic writing to Greek (or just created the story in Greek) substituted in the Greek word “anothen”, which has a dual meaning. Only now that the Greek word was put in place can Nicodemus be legitimately confused.

That’s what all the big fuss is about.

John recorded what Jesus said.

Let’s not forget the name John is nothing more than an attribution. The Gospels were anonymous writings. Ever wonder why the Gospels are all written in the third person narrative, rather than in the first person (eye witness) narrative?

Even if my perception of it is completely up the creek, wouldn't it still be conceivable for Nicodemus to respond as he did upon hearing "born from above"?

Sure, but only if Jesus was speaking Greek.

Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #107 on: June 22, 2012, 06:41:34 AM »
Jesus used whatever the aramaic words for 'born again' are, not the aramaic words for 'born from above'.

if Jesus meant “from above” he would have plainly said “from above” in Aramaic, because that word has no dual meaning.

I agree! He would have! My point is that He didn't mean to say "from above"!!! He meant to say exactly what He did say - "born again". The response of Nicodemus makes sense, and what Jesus said makes sense, as I pointed out earlier.


 Whoever translated this conversation from Aramaic writing to Greek (or just created the story in Greek) substituted in the Greek word “anothen”, which has a dual meaning.

Yes....they substituted the only available Greek word. Because it has a dual meaning, we are left to try and determine which meaning makes the most sense, contextually. I contend that "born again" makes the most sense based on the reaction of Nicodemus.


 Only now that the Greek word was put in place can Nicodemus be legitimately confused.
 

No - he can be legitimately confused because Jesus said something confusing. There is no conspiracy here.



Let’s not forget the name John is nothing more than an attribution. The Gospels were anonymous writings. Ever wonder why the Gospels are all written in the third person narrative, rather than in the first person (eye witness) narrative? 

My point is that John's gospel was recorded faithfully - John recounted the Aramaic words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus.


Even if my perception of it is completely up the creek, wouldn't it still be conceivable for Nicodemus to respond as he did upon hearing "born from above"?

Sure, but only if Jesus was speaking Greek.

Nicodemus could realistically react as he did even if Jesus said in Aramaic "you must be born from above". In my opinion. But it makes more sense that Jesus said "Born again"

I'd really love a third opinion on the specific matter Z and I are discussing....
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 06:44:16 AM by magicmiles »
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Zankuu

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2091
  • Darwins +127/-2
  • Gender: Male
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2012, 01:40:49 PM »
I agree! He would have! My point is that He didn't mean to say "from above"!!! He meant to say exactly what He did say - "born again". The response of Nicodemus makes sense, and what Jesus said makes sense, as I pointed out earlier.

If this was a real conversation that had taken place in Aramaic, of course he would have said "from above", that's what his entire speech was about. One must be born from above to enter heaven. He never said "born again" in Aramaic. "Born again" and "from above" are two different words in Aramaic.

Yes....they substituted the only available Greek word.

Precisely! Now do you get where I'm coming from? Only now that they substituted the Greek word in, the conversation makes sense. That's been my entire point. It's more likely that it was originally written in Greek.

Because it has a dual meaning, we are left to try and determine which meaning makes the most sense, contextually. I contend that "born again" makes the most sense based on the reaction of Nicodemus.

But Jesus never said "born again" in Aramaic, "born again" is only attributed to him when his words were translated into Greek. In Greek, he could be taken to mean that because of the Greek double meaning. But this is all assuming this dialogue was actually written down in Aramaic. There's no proof of that.

Nicodemus could realistically react as he did even if Jesus said in Aramaic "you must be born from above". In my opinion. But it makes more sense that Jesus said "Born again"

How? In both English and Aramaic there is no double entendre. If I said "You must be born from above" your response would never be "What do you mean born from my mother's womb again?" Yet this is what we see in the Gospel. It only makes sense recorded in Greek.

My point is that John's gospel was recorded faithfully - John recounted the Aramaic words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus.

How was it recorded faithfully? What makes you think that? Was the author(s) of John there to witness the conversation? No. It was written years after Jesus' death. It's also written in the third person narrative and we don't even know who originally recorded it. We have no idea how many scribes could have possibly tampered with it over hundreds of years, and the fact we have so many variances should worry anyone taking the Gospels seriously. Are you really that comfortable saying it was faithfully recorded?

It's a lot like that whisper game kids play. You know the one where everyone lines up and the first person whispers something to the next, and it's whispered down the line? It's rare for the words to come out exactly the way they were originally. And that's just with a group of 20 people, not thousands over hundreds of years! Sometimes it's a simple word that's accidentally lost- no big deal, but sometimes phrases lose entire meanings, and sometimes people outright lie to suit their own agenda.

mm, as an ex-Christian, I understand there are circumstances that are comparatively safe to place your faith in, but the inerrancy and credibility of the New Testament manuscripts isn't one of those circumstances.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1993
  • Darwins +194/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2012, 01:45:57 PM »
mm,

If Jesus was communicating in Aramaic, and he had said clearly that you must be born from above (which is how the Greek phrase is translated throughout John), why would Nicodemus have asked how he could get back into his mothers womb?  Would he not have asked something similar to 'what do you mean, born from above?'

In order for Nicodemus to ask the question he asked, he would have to think that Jesus meant something other than 'from above'.  It just so happens that in Greek, 'born again' can be mistaken with 'born from above'.  When you see that, you can easily understand why Nicodemus asked how he can get back into his mothers womb... because he thought Jesus meant he needed to be born 'a second time'.  The confusion only happens in Greek. Jesus even goes on to say that flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit, meaning no... not born a second time from his mother. 

Long story short, the conversation as it took place would only make sense if it was had in Greek.  They weren't speaking Greek.  Connect the dots. 

You can do all the mental gymnastics you want, mm.  No offense, but you're a Christian; so that means you're good at mental gymnastics.  You can say maybe this, or maybe that.  The point is that the understanding of the whole 'born again' thing makes a lot more sense if Jesus and Nicodemus were speaking Greek and not Aramaic.  It's not difficult to see what happened.  It's just much more likely that the author made the whole thing up. 

I think Zankuu has you on this one. 

My point is that John's gospel was recorded faithfully - John recounted the Aramaic words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus.

We have no idea who wrote John.  Nor any of the other gospels.  They are unknown authors.  How can you say the words were recorded faithfully if you have no idea who wrote it? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline learnin

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 235
  • Darwins +7/-0
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2012, 04:09:03 PM »
Working on it. Google Jim Elliot.

Why would the creator of the universe have to spend so much time and effort working on it? I would think that every human that ever lived should have been able to know His Word. People have lived entire lives without ever coming in contact with His Word. Why?

Dunno. God has told us what He has and shown us what He has. I won't reject God's offer of salvation to me simply because I don't understand if or how He will offer it to everybody.

Is this another one of your selfish moments?

I think practically everything we do has a selfish element to it if we look hard enough. But in this instance, it would actually be incredibly selfish to go the opposite direction. Because I would essentially be telling God that He can take His salvation and shove it unless I, the mighty I, know it all first.

So, what do you think about this.     You and your neighbors are standing on top of your houses as flood waters are rising.   A helicopter comes by and lowers you a rope.   There is plenty of room in the helicopter and plenty of time to get the other 20 neighbors.  The helicopter flies off.  Do you praise the helicopter crew or do you question the hell out of them;  yell at them; get pissed at them for not saving the others.

Offline MadBunny

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3561
  • Darwins +110/-0
  • Fallen Illuminatus
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2012, 04:28:00 PM »
One has to wonder at the defectiveness of a 'GOD' who can't bother to create a message that isn't decipherable to more than a tiny fraction of the people it's supposed to reach.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2012, 04:32:39 PM »
Why?  God's last words are pretty clear.  "I've done My bit I'm going to split".
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline MadBunny

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3561
  • Darwins +110/-0
  • Fallen Illuminatus
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2012, 04:41:28 PM »
Yes, how lucky for those people in that tiny mostly desert area of the planet Earth.
Kind of an underwhelming work ethic for the supposed creator of the whole universe isn't it?

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4587
  • Darwins +104/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2012, 04:58:02 PM »
Yes, how lucky for those people in that tiny mostly desert area of the planet Earth.
Kind of an underwhelming work ethic for the supposed creator of the whole universe isn't it?
Was God just being lazy,communicating to such a tiny audience?......then we have these"Christians" say that faith in Jesus now can include the whole world. To go from such a tiny group of people,then through Jesus reach a few thousand more for a guy(God)who created everything is just plain stupid and lazy.

 They use afterlife scare tactics and now they are at 33% of the worlds population,but steadily declining to usher in the new way to faith-Islam and mormonism.  The funny thing is Christians look at these new versions(Islam and Mormonism) and point out all the failings in the writings of these new groups and laugh.

 Christians will say the stories are full of contradictions,fallacies and plain outright lies,,,,where as the mormon or muslim would turn and say well "it works for you,your book if full of contradiction,fallacies and lies". The Christian would then say"you just dont understand" and the fight continues today
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: What were God's last words?
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2012, 11:13:05 PM »


If this was a real conversation that had taken place in Aramaic, of course he would have said "from above", that's what his entire speech was about.

I don't see it that way. To me, it makes sense that Jesus said "born again" It fits in with what Jesus was telling John. As I pointed out, Jesus really grabbed Nicodemuses attention with what He said.



But Jesus never said "born again" in Aramaic

I think he did. It fits the overall context. There is no valid contextual reason to doubt this, IMO.


Nicodemus could realistically react as he did even if Jesus said in Aramaic "you must be born from above". In my opinion. But it makes more sense that Jesus said "Born again"

How? In both English and Aramaic there is no double entendre. If I said "You must be born from above" your response would never be "What do you mean born from my mother's womb again?" Yet this is what we see in the Gospel.

Nicodemus didn't say "What do you mean, born from my mothers womb again?". He said "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb?"

I fully admit that the bolded would be a highly questionable response to the statement "you must be born from above". But the italics (italiced?) would merely reflect some poor listening or comprehension skills from Nicodemus. I see a big difference.

I don't see any evidence of deliberate tampering, no matter which of the two phrases Jesus used. 

My point is that John's gospel was recorded faithfully - John recounted the Aramaic words Jesus spoke to Nicodemus.

How was it recorded faithfully? What makes you think that? Was the author(s) of John there to witness the conversation? No. It was written years after Jesus' death. It's also written in the third person narrative and we don't even know who originally recorded it. We have no idea how many scribes could have possibly tampered with it over hundreds of years, and the fact we have so many variances should worry anyone taking the Gospels seriously. Are you really that comfortable saying it was faithfully recorded?

You're undoubtedly familiar with the type of gospel defence I link to here, but it spells it out better than I can personally.

http://www.intervarsity.org/evangelism/article_item.php?article_id=1598

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.