The Red Buttonist Corner

[lotanddaughters]

For those of you who don't know what I mean by "red button" or "blue button", here is one of three threads you can check out:

<snip>

At the time of this post, the score is 20 red and 16 blue. As a red-buttoner, I find this staggeringly close. I wanted to make an observation with this thread mainly for fellow red-buttoners, but it's obviously open to the blue-buttoners as well.

In the grand scheme of things, I still find the debates about religion, gods, etc. to be more interesting than this. However, I suspect some dishonest denial when dealing with a blue-button person just as I do with a religious person.

For me, the one thing I can say that is better about having a discussion with a blue-buttoner instead of a religious person is that I am not worried whatsoever that I am wasting my time with a total POE. If you are instead dealing with a "religious" person on the internet, the chances of total POE increase immensely.

[Death over Life]

For those of you who don't know what I mean by "red button" or "blue button", here is one of three threads you can check out:

<snip>

At the time of this post, the score is 20 red and 16 blue. As a red-buttoner, I find this staggeringly close. I wanted to make an observation with this thread mainly for fellow red-buttoners, but it's obviously open to the blue-buttoners as well.

In the grand scheme of things, I still find the debates about religion, gods, etc. to be more interesting than this. However, I suspect some dishonest denial when dealing with a blue-button person just as I do with a religious person.

For me, the one thing I can say that is better about having a discussion with a blue-buttoner instead of a religious person is that I am not worried whatsoever that I am wasting my time with a total POE. If you are instead dealing with a "religious" person on the internet, the chances of total POE increase immensely.

Why do you and HAL suspect dishonest denial with blue-button pushers? Despite this is a hypothetical, this does play a lot out into how we are atheists in the real world, so I just wish to understand why red button pushers are asserting when reality comes, everybody pushes the red button. Imo, the red button claiming the blue-buttoners are "dishonest" and "lying to themselves" to be more along the lines of religious acting than the blue because the red ones are asserting they have the "correct" way to overthrow God.

We forget in the scenario, in the Bible, God knows who is worshipping in lips only and who genuinely worships. Many of the red-button pushers have claimed they would lip service God while trying to overthrow him to release the blue buttoners out of Hell. The thing is, God would have already known that, and according to the Bible, would have thrown you into Hell for Eternal Torture anyways, thus I feel some of the red button pushers are the ones who are actually experiencing dishonest denial.

I know this is for red button pushers, but I apologize for my tangent on the statement that blue button pushers are dishonestly denying themselves.

[HAL]

We forget in the scenario, in the Bible, God knows who is worshipping in lips only and who genuinely worships.

Worshiping is not mental it's physical. If you do the acts required of worship then you've satisfied the requirement, even though all along you are hating it. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, doesn't matter what Biblegod reads in your mind. If you complete the physical acts of worship you are OK. I've said this over and over.

Many of the red-button pushers have claimed they would lip service God while trying to overthrow him to release the blue buttoners out of Hell. The thing is, God would have already known that, and according to the Bible, would have thrown you into Hell for Eternal Torture anyways, thus I feel some of the red button pushers are the ones who are actually experiencing dishonest denial.

I know this is for red button pushers, but I apologize for my tangent on the statement that blue button pushers are dishonestly denying themselves.

Newsflash! Newsflash! Newsflash!

Being an atheist doesn't mean you are a god hater or want to overthrow deities or any else like that. It simply means you don't believe in gods at the present time. That's all. That's it. If a god was proven to exist I'd believe in it - duh. If it told me to do something I reckon I'd damn well do it. It's an authority figure of the highest order. If the local cops told me to do something I didn't want to do, and it was within their authority to tell me, I'd do it to, and they are far less powerful than a god.

So if you have delusions of grandeur regarding defeating gods that's your business, but it's an additional description of yourself so use an additional term.

[jetson]

I have no doubt that the blues are well aware of what they are essentially claiming - that they prefer the ultimate torture over the alternative - worshiping Bible god.

But it is not a preference in my mind.  I don't want to suffer at all.  But more than that, I simply do not want to worship such a god for eternity.  I find that hopelessley pointless.  But here's the thing, and I touched on it in the other discussion thread.

I recognize that humans are capable of living lives that are not completely true to who they are, or what they want.  I do it every day by going to work in a place that I don't have a serious passion for.  So I'm compromising.  So I can understand why the reds don't understand the blues decision.  Why can't I just compromise in this scenario?  I don't really know why.  And for sure, I recognize some hypocrisy in my decision.

But I'm 50 years old this year.  I've looked back and realized that I have not followed a true path of my own choosing.  I've compromised a lot.  I could compromise in this scenario, just like I have in other are of my life.  But I am trying a lot harder these days to be as true to myself as I can.  It is very difficult to do, every time I turn around, i recognize another compromise.

Maybe this scenario is the wrong one to compromise on? 

[Add Homonym]

We forget in the scenario, in the Bible, God knows who is worshipping in lips only and who genuinely worships. Many of the red-button pushers have claimed they would lip service God while trying to overthrow him to release the blue buttoners out of Hell.

It is plausible that if Biblegod shows himself, that he would make sense, and the red buttoners would think it logical to serve him. However, in our current state, we cannot fathom which version of God is correct, or see any logic to what Biblegod does, because he is poorly explained. When you dream, the most absurd things seem real. Biblegod may come with a sudden change of perspective, similar to waking from a dream, which makes our current view look ignorant.

One example is that the origin of hell is not explained. Biblegod seems repulsive, because Christian apologists are left explaining/guessing where hell came from, rather than God, himself. The explanation of hell might be unexpected. Also, what the resurrection is for, and what heaven is like, is also not explained. A true explanation could make sense.

[sun_king]

Since this is not a strictly regulated thread of a dictatorial nature, I can speak what I wish to!

The red buttons seem to behave just like the theists, they simply cannot accept that another choice holds true for someone else. So, the blue buttons are wimps, green buttons are Rambos and the genuine wannabe worshipers are truthful. Just like our usual visiting Christian members, they make the claim that "you will regret the choice" or "you are lying".

So LotandDaughters, think of us, the blue buttoners, with your prejudice, with your inability to accept others choices and faiths[1], with your self proclaimed righteousness, how do we differentiate between the red buttons and the Christians?

Are the red buttons one step away from embracing Christianity?

1.	Not religious faith

[Death over Life]

Worshiping is not mental it's physical. If you do the acts required of worship then you've satisfied the requirement, even though all along you are hating it. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, doesn't matter what Biblegod reads in your mind. If you complete the physical acts of worship you are OK. I've said this over and over.

I would agree if the Bible didn’t make the mental portion of worship so clear:

biblegateway.com btw

Mark 7:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 22:35-40
King James Version (KJV)
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:30-32
King James Version (KJV)
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

With your hypothetical HAL, these Bible Verses are valid. There is also a Bible Verse that says if you love me, you’ll keep my Commandments. Anyways, the Bible verses here point to not a mere physical act, but an emotion towards the one you are worshipping.

If all it was, was doing something for somebody you despise, I can understand the red button. However, in the hypothetical where the Bible is the truth, worship is not just an act, it is an emotion and affection towards whom you are worshipping. Because of this, this is not only you obey, but you have strong positive affection (love) towards that which you are worshipping.

If you do exactly as you and the others have suggested, worship while hating, the Bible calls it vain worship, and thus puts you in the same group as the blue button pushers. According to the Bible, it’s not just worship, it’s worship AND love. I can do things for people I can’t stand as I’ve done it before, but when I have to have a certain emotional feeling and a certain mindset in addition to it, by then I’m lying to myself, and I can’t lie to myself. What crosses the line isn’t the I have to do things for God, it’s I have to LOVE God and LOVE what I’m doing while obeying that crosses the line. As I said, if you don’t LOVE God while you are worshipping, the worship is vain, and thus damned.

Many of the red-button pushers have claimed they would lip service God while trying to overthrow him to release the blue buttoners out of Hell. The thing is, God would have already known that, and according to the Bible, would have thrown you into Hell for Eternal Torture anyways, thus I feel some of the red button pushers are the ones who are actually experiencing dishonest denial.

I know this is for red button pushers, but I apologize for my tangent on the statement that blue button pushers are dishonestly denying themselves.

Newsflash! Newsflash! Newsflash!

Being an atheist doesn't mean you are a god hater or want to overthrow deities or any else like that. It simply means you don't believe in gods at the present time. That's all. That's it. If a god was proven to exist I'd believe in it - duh. If it told me to do something I reckon I'd damn well do it. It's an authority figure of the highest order. If the local cops told me to do something I didn't want to do, and it was within their authority to tell me, I'd do it to, and they are far less powerful than a god.

So if you have delusions of grandeur regarding defeating gods that's your business, but it's an additional description of yourself so use an additional term.

We are going by your hypothetical here. With your hypothetical, there is no such thing as atheism so please don’t confuse the hypothetical with reality here. Since we are going by your hypothetical, it would be anti-theist/anti-Christian/anti-Semitic. Another side to is, if the hypothetical were real, I’d be a Devil Worshipper Satanist, as when I was really a Christian who really believed in it, I was heading in that direction anyway, until I came here and WWGHA plucked away the fantasy in my beliefs. We are going back to a time where the fantasy was reality, and that reality took me towards “evil”, the occult, Satan etc. so, I’d simply go back to the way I was.

In the purest sense in reality though, I’m not anti-theist when it comes to all gods that have ever been made up. I personally wish some of the gods made up were real, like Cthulhu, Thor, Jormungandr, Baal, Enki, or Satan himself for example. So, I’m not anti-theist, just in the hypothetical, anti-Semitic.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Are the red buttons one step away from embracing Christianity?

It would seem that they are merely one or two cleverly articulated sales pitches away, does it not?

[BaalServant]

I recognize that humans are capable of living lives that are not completely true to who they are, or what they want.  I do it every day by going to work in a place that I don't have a serious passion for.  So I'm compromising. 

This life is short, and I make similar compromises. 

I chose not to compromise and chose Blue in this hypothetical because eternity is long, and I wouldn't want to live with a long term compromise. 

[Mr. Blackwell]

If God IS love, and all that it encompasses,

<snip>

if given the option, I would choose to be in the presence of love. However, if being in His presence is described accurately in the bible then I am afraid that I would choose to suffer alone rather than be in thralled to that God.

This was my first response to the "if Biblegod was shown to exist.." thread.

I allowed for the possibility that my current understanding of God's nature is incomplete. To expand on what I mean, I imagine that IF God is love...then I would be obliged or compelled to worship Him. Much the same way I am compelled to worship my wife or children or anyone else that I love. I pay them respect and do things for them even at my own inconvenience.

I do not view this as torture, it is simply my way of showing my love for them. So if worshiping God is anything like that then, as I said...I would choose to be in the presence of love. However, for this hypothetical scenario the example provide and implied is that of a narcissistic demanding God. A cruel high maintenance lover who has a history of acting out violently on a whim.

If the choice is between a companion or a dominatrix then give me a companion. If the choice is between worshiping a dominatrix or being whipped by the dominatrix then I don't see that as any kind of choice at all.
[/quote]

[HAL]

I would agree if the Bible didn’t make the mental portion of worship so clear: ...

With your hypothetical HAL, these Bible Verses are valid.

Where in my hypothetical does it say everything in the Bible is valid? I specifically left that out because that aspect hasn't been proven in my hypothetical. I just said the god in the hypothetical is the one written about in the Bible. Just because a thing is written about by humans doesn't mean everything said about the thing is true. The only way to know that is to meet the thing and find out. All I said in the hypothetical is two aspects of what it will do/want - nothing more.

If all it was, was doing something for somebody you despise, I can understand the red button. However, in the hypothetical where the Bible is the truth, worship is not just an act, it is an emotion and affection towards whom you are worshipping. Because of this, this is not only you obey, but you have strong positive affection (love) towards that which you are worshipping.

If you do exactly as you and the others have suggested, worship while hating, the Bible calls it vain worship, and thus puts you in the same group as the blue button pushers. According to the Bible, it’s not just worship, it’s worship AND love. I can do things for people I can’t stand as I’ve done it before, but when I have to have a certain emotional feeling and a certain mindset in addition to it, by then I’m lying to myself, and I can’t lie to myself. What crosses the line isn’t the I have to do things for God, it’s I have to LOVE God and LOVE what I’m doing while obeying that crosses the line. As I said, if you don’t LOVE God while you are worshipping, the worship is vain, and thus damned.

Same answer as above. The Bible hasn't been proven true, just the god that was written about in the Bible, and you have no way to know if all that was written is true or false. See, that's what I mean, you all keep adjusting the hypothetical so you can answer a certain way. Please stop doing this.

Another side to is, if the hypothetical were real, I’d be a Devil Worshipper Satanist, ... so, I’d simply go back to the way I was.

If the hypothetical were true and you really did that, well, I'm sorry to say to you, I would consider you a complete idiot.

[Zankuu]

Are the red buttons one step away from embracing Christianity?

Look, this is really simple. In HAL's hypothetical, God exists. Those that have taken this thread seriously accept their fragile human mind and body would crumble to the weight of a god's torture. And *I think* the majority of the blue and green button pushers have also agreed they have breaking points. Now that I think about it, I don't think a single person here has said, "I am a force for God to reckon with; my mind is impregnable to torture and my body is fortified by my bravery. I will never break! I will never regret! I will never surrender!"

So given the facts that 1) You have limitations to torture, and 2) God will surpass those limitations and make you regret your choice, then choosing to not be tortured is the only rational choice. If any of you still want to say you would rather choose blue, then what kind of mild hell are you creating for yourself where you're able to hold out and withstand the torture?

[Poseidon]

I would push the red button only after satisfying some serious reservations. First god would have to provide definitive proof that he actually has all that power over my heaven or hell destiny. Further, some undeniable evidence that heaven and hell actually exist, would be required. Then she/he/it would have to identify which religion he/she/it represents and whether only that particular religious god belief is acceptable to the exclusion of all others.

I have even more questions for this god character. By this time god is likely to be so pissed at my demands that he'd strike me dead on the spot. That would leave me in limbo without the ability to select a button of any color. 

Suppose I had obediently pushed the red button without cross examining god or never became aware of his lordly presence. Then I discover, too late of course, that the red button was only for the christian god and the real god turned out to be one of the henotheistic ones, not the xtian one at all. No matter how I slice it I am screwed.

[jetson]

If any of you still want to say you would rather choose blue, then what kind of mild hell are you creating for yourself where you're able to hold out and withstand the torture?

"able to hold out and withstand the torture"

This is the issue.  Since this is eternal, doesn't it mean that it really doesn't matter?  I mean, at what point does it become any worse or any better?  It just is...forever.

[HAL]

I have even more questions for this god character. By this time god is likely to be so pissed at my demands that he'd strike me dead on the spot. That would leave me in limbo without the ability to select a button of any color. 

From what I've seen, a lot of you would be in that position.

[Zankuu]

Since this is eternal, doesn't it mean that it really doesn't matter?  I mean, at what point does it become any worse or any better?  It just is...forever.

For me, eternal is the reason it matters.

If the hypothetical involved an evil human dictator and the blue button resulted in death/nonexistence, then I would be blindfolded and lined up on the wall awaiting my execution with the rest of you. But this isn't the scenario. We're facing a deity and eternal torment.

If a malevolent god harnesses true omnipotence and has an infinite amount of time, your suffering will forever be infinitely worse.

[Kimberly]

Edit: Some how posted in wrong thread. I swear I've never even seen this thread. I'm resposting in the correct thread.

[pamindfw]

If a malevolent god harnesses true omnipotence and has an infinite amount of time, your suffering will forever be infinitely worse.

You really think pressing the red button will prevent this malevolent god from eternally torturing you?  Might as well press the blue.  That's what you'll get from this god no matter what.

[Zankuu]

You really think pressing the red button will prevent this malevolent god from eternally torturing you?  Might as well press the blue.  That's what you'll get from this god no matter what.

We simply don't know. I can only work with what I'm given: a room, three buttons (worship God, be tortured, or be tortured until I break then worship God), and a five minute timer. There is no way to tell if this God is lying to me. Red is the safest, rational button.

[Death over Life]

Where in my hypothetical does it say everything in the Bible is valid?

Well, calling it BibleGod tends to be a dead give away, but I give you the benefit of the doubt that we were talking about the Christian God here.

I specifically left that out because that aspect hasn't been proven in my hypothetical. I just said the god in the hypothetical is the one written about in the Bible. Just because a thing is written about by humans doesn't mean everything said about the thing is true. The only way to know that is to meet the thing and find out. All I said in the hypothetical is two aspects of what it will do/want - nothing more.

So what’s to say anything is eternal? So then, if your hypothetical is proven, show me how your hypothetical proves that there is an afterlife and an eternity at all. As you said it yourself:

Just because a thing is written about by humans doesn't mean everything said about the thing is true. The only way to know that is to meet the thing and find out.

Same answer as above. The Bible hasn't been proven true, just the god that was written about in the Bible, and you have no way to know if all that was written is true or false. See, that's what I mean, you all keep adjusting the hypothetical so you can answer a certain way. Please stop doing this.

Yet, by those same standards, you HAVE to have eternity or eternal torture as your options, yet it’s under the same scrutiny as everything else you get mad about.

If you are sick and tired of getting butt hurt over people saying blue, perhaps you should define your hypothetical instead of making a statement and throwing childish temper tantrums for those who think differently than you do.

If the hypothetical were true and you really did that, well, I'm sorry to say to you, I would consider you a complete idiot.

Ahh. You’re such a sweet heart! Who would have thought you have such care about me. I’m blushing hehe.

Maybe if you are still a nice boy after it’s all said and done, I can take you to the doctor and get that rectum of yours checked out. See how badly it’s been injured since our last argument. Once it’s all done, the doctor will give you a lollipop as well to help make you feel better. Sounds like you need a hug.

[HAL]

Sounds like you need a hug.

Yea, Nam will give me a hug if I need one.

[lomolo]

I would push the red button only after satisfying some serious reservations.

I sort of agree with this. I would be rushing to press whichever button and do however many backflips it took to get me out of eternal torture. I'm sorry if that seems morally reprehensible to you blue-button pushers, but this is an all-powerful, all-knowing God we're talking about here. Wouldn't he be able to explain himself and his actions? Wouldn't he know exactly what it would take to convince even the most die-hard anti-theist person ever that he's the one who deserves your worship?

He wouldn't even need to be all-powerful or all-knowing, just sufficiently so, to change anyone's mind. He could present something to you to change your mind fairly, with no wizardly mumbo-jumbo or forced changes of heart.

This is assuming that God would want to do that and that he would want as many people possible to be 'saved', or at least, as many people as possible worshiping him.

[sun_king]

Look, this is really simple. In HAL's hypothetical, God exists. Those that have taken this thread seriously accept their fragile human mind and body would crumble to the weight of a god's torture. And *I think* the majority of the blue and green button pushers have also agreed they have breaking points. Now that I think about it, I don't think a single person here has said, "I am a force for God to reckon with; my mind is impregnable to torture and my body is fortified by my bravery. I will never break! I will never regret! I will never surrender!"

So given the facts that 1) You have limitations to torture, and 2) God will surpass those limitations and make you regret your choice, then choosing to not be tortured is the only rational choice. If any of you still want to say you would rather choose blue, then what kind of mild hell are you creating for yourself where you're able to hold out and withstand the torture?

My objections were to the unwarranted name calling (liars, wimps) by unqualified folks. HAL asked a hypothetical question (which means any "right" answer is subjective), he got some answers and instead of accepting them, he and supporters proceeded to accuse some answerers to be wimpy or dishonest. I can put in several occurences in human history where individuals accepted long lasting pain instead of surrendering, death over self-preservation and so on. With such examples available, none of you have any right to label us as dishonest or wimps. That was, shall we say, extremely theist of you.

And about the "breaking point", what makes you worshippers think you don't have a breaking point? Lucifer used to be the biggest butt-kisser and one day he said enough and chose eternal damnation. A&E's descendents chose not to worship the skygod and by the time of Noah, big G had to flood the planet. Tom Cruise chose not to worship Hitler anymore and went in with a cute little briefcase. Even worship is not eternal, there is a breaking point, but the blue buttonists were not accusing anyone of lying...

And look at the similarities. Accept JC or you are gonna burn. Say I will press the red button or you are a wimpy liar. Why resort to the same despicable conversion method used by the Christians? How hard is it to accept that there are others who will make choices you cannot and move on?

[lotanddaughters]

Lucifer used to be the biggest butt-kisser and one day he said enough and chose eternal damnation.

But when the time finally came to choose a button, he changed his name to One Above All and pressed red.

Even worship is not eternal, there is a breaking point, but the blue buttonists were not accusing anyone of lying...

And look at the similarities. Accept JC or you are gonna burn. Say I will press the red button or you are a wimpy liar. Why resort to the same despicable conversion method used by the Christians? How hard is it to accept that there are others who will make choices you cannot and move on?

You know, I've been so sure of some things in the past. Then, come to find out, I was totally wrong. You're right. Everyone who said they would push the blue button was telling the truth. I was too ignorant to see it. And to top things off, not one of the blue buttonists accused me of lying. They were better than that. Heck, it's probably more reasonable to push the blue button. Now that I can think more clearly about it thanks to you, I think I'd choose blue myself if given the chance.

HAL, after reevaluating your hypothetical, I now know I would choose blue. Don't believe me? How dare you.

My sincerest apologies go out to the brave blue buttonists.