Author Topic: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration  (Read 3713 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2012, 02:56:46 PM »
It's much more damaging to try to shut down hypothetical discussions like this, in the name of "protecting" people from drawing conclusions that one may not like.

Offline HAL

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2012, 04:23:56 PM »
Maybe this will satisfy you gg -


Memo to: All Christians reading this thread

From: HAL

Subject: My hypothetical threads

I, HAL, do not believe in Biblegod, or any god whatsoever. I do not even know of a way that a god could be proven to exist, because before I believed in the god I would suspect highly advanced aliens were manipulating me. I could have been talking about Zeus or Anubis or any other god.

My threads are purely for entertainment purposes and I do not in any way think they will become reality. Any person who believes in Christianity is not being rational about it. They are entertainment for very experienced debaters and should not be attempted at home.

Signed,

HAL

Offline Nam

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2012, 06:14:31 PM »
Hal, you're claiming "we" are bad asses, we are internet tough guys, etc., I never called myself that, and don't think anyone else with an opposing view has either.

I don't know why you're starting another discussion, like so many religious people: you're right, and we are wrong. Why are "we" wrong? 'Cause you say so.

Oh, and I still press the "blue" button. Why would anyone, in their right mind[1] would worship and praise a deity who not only tortured you for who knows how long but makes it seem based on denying it, that one deserved such a fate?

You go ahead and bow down to such a being, hypothetically of course, you can laugh at me from the invisible chains you'll be wearing in Heaven.

-Nam
 1. I know, I know
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline jetson

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2012, 06:25:21 PM »
This has been I interesting, I have to say.

Offline HAL

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2012, 07:17:35 PM »
Hal, you're claiming "we" are bad asses, we are internet tough guys, etc., I never called myself that, and don't think anyone else with an opposing view has either.

I once shot a staple gun into my right hand[1]. I didn't scream in pain, I didn't cry, or anything. Something so painful should've inflicted me with some painful response but it didn't. Even taking my pocket knife and removing it from my hand gave no response by me. Still, to this day, have the scarring. I have even put lit cigarettes and cigars out on my arms with no reaction, at all.
 1. not a stapler but the thing you post wire to fence posts with

I don't always burn my skin with cigars.
But when I do, I prefer Felipe Gregorio Icon
Stay in pain my friends.


Offline MadBunny

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2012, 07:37:15 PM »
Humanity, including you, accepts that Biblegod has been proven to exist. Suddenly find yourself in a room with three buttons. The sign says -

Press the Red button to agree to worship god for the rest of your life.

Press the Blue button to not worship god and accept eternal torture upon death without the possibility of revocation.

Press the Green Button to accept torture upon death with an option.


The blue button is the only option that is irrevocable.

I'd probably press the red button, assuming that he evidence is undeniably accurate, If I was unsure in any way I'd likely go for the green button as it allows me to functionally take Pascals wager, but with an opt out.  The skeptic in me leans green.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2012, 07:44:50 PM »
The blue button is the only option that is irrevocable.

I'd probably press the red button, assuming that he evidence is undeniably accurate, If I was unsure in any way I'd likely go for the green button as it allows me to functionally take Pascals wager, but with an opt out.  The skeptic in me leans green.

You would press the red button, Whore.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2012, 08:05:44 PM »
You would press the red button, Whore.

What?  The creator of the universe gives me an unfair choice: worship me or burn forever.  Though, considering that the 'RED' button choice can be revoked by bible-god at any time it feels like it for just a stray thought the green is still looking like the safer choice.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Death over Life

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2012, 11:39:04 PM »
Anyways a slightly off topic thought:

If heaven is so unbelievably amazing, why is hell even necessary?

What I have always wondered, if heaven is so unbelievably amazing, why aren't Christians committing suicide to go to this unbelievably amazing heaven instead of staying on Earth making life a living hell for everybody else? Read the letters of Paul, I think, to the Corinthians. That man himself said he was very suicidal, but only didn't commit the act because he wanted to see more people "make it" to heaven.

The Catholics have made the excuse that suicide is one of those damnable sins, so I understand them, but what of the Orthodox and Protestants?

Offline lomolo

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2012, 12:55:20 AM »
The Catholics have made the excuse that suicide is one of those damnable sins, so I understand them, but what of the Orthodox and Protestants?

I don't think their explanation is any different - suicide is 'technically' murdering yourself. Which is going against God's commandment. But hey you're saved right?

Can't have all of the lifeblood getting clotted with people jumping the gun getting into paradise :)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:57:01 AM by lomolo »

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2012, 07:50:24 AM »
My only interest is that this thread, and its ilk, stop, and that these kind of mindbendingly useless--and possibly damaging-- discussions never start.

So let me be clear what you want.

You want to further limit free speech under the existing rules, and you appear to wish that some limitations on what we talk about be installed under the rules here. Something about this type of thread and it's "ilk", something regarding "mindbendingly useless--and possibly damaging-- discussions". So you feel we have several types of damaging discussions and this is one of them?

OK. I have a suggestion for you. Let's bring it up to management and see what they say about your idea. If they rule for you and design new rules or guidelines to follow, I'd be happy to follow them. If you start a discussion about that, I'll chime in. You'll have to define the following:

A. mindbendingly useless discussions
B. possibly damaging discussions
C. What other types of threads (ilk) there are that you disagree should be posted.

Thanks.

No Hal...You obviously are not clear. I do not have an "idea"

Nowhere in my post did I talk about speech limits or Forum rule changes. So bollocks to that.

My stated wish/interest and personal desire that threads like this not get started, does not at the same time express a desire as well to limit free speech here and change Forum Rules to reflect that, so don't even bother trying to nail me on that one. I adamantly support free speech, but I also adamantly support pointing out and ridiculing the trash talk that comes out of it. 

You claim that your hypotheticals' are for entertainment purposes only. That's nice, and most times they are, and knowing you we already knew that. But on the rare occasion when it's not funny for some, don't get your back up and those knickers in a knot if someone tells you so and disses it outright. Your a big boy so I'm sure you know how to take one on the chin by now...... Chin and grin man.

Others may have found the thread fun and that's their business not mine, but no apologies from me Hal, for the fact that I personally find this type of thread unnecessary, unproductive, and not entertaining in the least. It blows actually, and I've expressed one reason as to why. The fact that you want to have some fun and provide some entertainment with the most vile and mind destroying doctrine in human history does not automatically mean that all others will also..... As well, I won't be going on any further with your last suggestion so you can just pipe that idea. My point doesn't need to be explained any further.

Lets face it--you came into this entire thing with fangs down and talons out and proceeded to tear a strip off Nam:
Quote
I want to thank Nam for this topic. Here's what Nam says about it-

Quote
Quote from: Nam on June 06, 2012, 07:38:24 AM

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, I'd be happy to burn forever (sic) in Hell.

I think that's a ridiculous claim - that you have enough knowledge of the consequences of eternal Hell to make such an arrogant claim. As I said - talk on the Internets is cheap. When it comes to reality (if this were true) who here would choose to go to Hell and burn forever?

I wouldn't.

So if your original thread was meant for fun and entertainment--then why the attempted slapping around of Nam ?

Why not just start your thread without holding Nam out as model of idiocy and arrogance like you did ? ....Seriously dude, can you not see that what you did, started wrong, and kept being wrong right until this moment ?

I've made it clear to you that I don't want to be at odds with anyone, and I don't feel that here, but man you owe it to Nam to admit that you blew it at the beginning of all this and to make sure there is no hard feelings between the two of you. I think that "hypothetically" that would be a good thing to do.

Peace.
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline HAL

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2012, 08:18:31 AM »
No Hal...You obviously are not clear. I do not have an "idea". Nowhere in my post did I talk about speech limits or Forum rule changes. So bollocks to that.

My stated wish/interest and personal desire that threads like this not get started, does not at the same time express a desire as well to limit free speech here and change Forum Rules to reflect that, so don't even bother trying to nail me on that one. I adamantly support free speech, but I also adamantly support pointing out and ridiculing the trash talk that comes out of it.

Well one man's trash talk is another man's pointing out of the obvious. I'm still clueless as to what the hell you want? You said "My stated wish/interest and personal desire that threads like this not get started. Threads like this? Like this in what way? I guess the only thing to tell you is you're not going to get your way all the time on the forum.

Quote
You claim that your hypotheticals' are for entertainment purposes only. That's nice, and most times they are, and knowing you we already knew that. But on the rare occasion when it's not funny for some, don't get your back up and those knickers in a knot if someone tells you so and disses it outright. Your a big boy so I'm sure you know how to take one on the chin by now...... Chin and grin man.

I think the appropriate thing for you to do is to start a discussion about it in a new thread, because if you don't do that today, I will. How's about them apples?

Quote
Others may have found the thread fun and that's their business not mine, but no apologies from me Hal, for the fact that I personally find this type of thread unnecessary, unproductive, and not entertaining in the least.

Then why are you participating in it? If you don't like it go elsewhere on the forum.

Quote
It blows actually, and I've expressed one reason as to why. The fact that you want to have some fun and provide some entertainment with the most vile and mind destroying doctrine in human history does not automatically mean that all others will also.....

If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen dude. Turn off your computer, go to another thread, change the channel ...

Quote
As well, I won't be going on any further with your last suggestion so you can just pipe that idea. My point doesn't need to be explained any further.

I don't even know what your point is. I have no idea how to draw lines (if I were to try) on future hypotheticals based on anything you've said.

Quote
Lets face it--you came into this entire thing with fangs down and talons out and proceeded to tear a strip off Nam:
Quote
I want to thank Nam for this topic. Here's what Nam says about it-

Quote
Quote from: Nam on June 06, 2012, 07:38:24 AM

If Biblegod was shown 100% to exist, I'd be happy to burn forever (sic) in Hell.

I think that's a ridiculous claim - that you have enough knowledge of the consequences of eternal Hell to make such an arrogant claim. As I said - talk on the Internets is cheap. When it comes to reality (if this were true) who here would choose to go to Hell and burn forever?

I wouldn't.

So if your original thread was meant for fun and entertainment--then why the attempted slapping around of Nam ? Why not just start your thread without holding Nam out as model of idiocy and arrogance like you did ? ....Seriously dude, can you not see that what you did, started wrong, and kept being wrong right until this moment ?

Huh? I quoted a member - in case you hadn't noticed that's appropriate on the forum. We quote other people and respond to their ideas. It was Nam's idea hence I gave him credit for it. I should be applauded for this.

Quote
I've made it clear to you that I don't want to be at odds with anyone, and I don't feel that here, but man you owe it to Nam to admit that you blew it at the beginning of all this and to make sure there is no hard feelings between the two of you. I think that "hypothetically" that would be a good thing to do.

Peace.

I have no intention of admitting I "blew it". There is nothing wrong with quoting another member and responding. He just happened to be the one who said it. He's a keyboard hero and I have no intention of changing my opinion about that either.



Offline gonegolfing

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2012, 09:31:19 AM »


^^^^^ You just can't help yourself can you ?  &)



"The Dogma of Blue" By HAL...Read it now at WWGHA !!


Knock yourself out with your new thread...and make sure you bash me--with quotes no less--in the beginning of it.

I think I'll go and enjoy a nice apple  ;)
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Offline Atheistisaweirdword

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2012, 09:48:27 AM »
It's a paradox though, if bible god did exist and he was almighty and powerful, why would Satan exist? Really? The story is that he was an angel(a lesser form than the almighty). Honestly if this hypothetical was real every human would pick red, maybe green if they're that naive, whether they say the would or not it doesn't value, you could say that on the Internet but anyone knows if bible god were proven to exist we all know how fucked up of a god he is, and how many innocent living organisms he killed, without barely reason. The bible god had always seemed to my like an old bitter grandfather, watching you all the time, making sure you don't enjoy the best things in life. So anyone who actually says red is just being logical and honest(even though we all know souls feeling pain doesn't make sense and hell is just a fear tool). So whether some people say blue we all know torture will make ANYONE crack. I conclude, don't lie and say blue, or lie and green. You weigh the logic between living eternally safe, or being tortured forever or, in the green case for a while. If god maybe the earth in 7 days we know by that pretense or in this hypothetical that god doesn't have the same time schedule we do. I use my iPhone and didn't proof read this.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2012, 02:01:00 PM »
With all due respect to gonegolfing, I think he's overreacting here.  If I hadn't actually practiced martial arts with someone who has the same condition (nerves that apparently don't pass pain signals up[1]), I wouldn't have believed that Nam was telling the truth about his apparent inability to feel pain.  Without knowing that, Nam's statements would look like bluster, not facts.

----

Getting back to the point of the thread, I will again state that I can't pick one of those three options in advance like this.  It depends too much on factors which can't be quantified in a hypothetical choice like this, such as how I would actually react to the revelation of a deity like this.  Like it or not, my emotions would have a big impact in what I would choose.  If I were pissed off enough, I wouldn't care about the eventual punishment promised here, especially since there's no guarantee at all that I wouldn't just end up in the right place if Biblegod decided I wasn't sincere or debasing enough in my worship.
 1. He didn't even react to joint locks which can be excruciatingly painful if pushed even a little too hard.

Offline BaalServant

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2012, 02:07:18 PM »
Getting back to the point of the thread, I will again state that I can't pick one of those three options in advance like this.  It depends too much on factors which can't be quantified in a hypothetical choice like this, such as how I would actually react to the revelation of a deity like this.  Like it or not, my emotions would have a big impact in what I would choose.  If I were pissed off enough, I wouldn't care about the eventual punishment promised here, especially since there's no guarantee at all that I wouldn't just end up in the right place if Biblegod decided I wasn't sincere or debasing enough in my worship.

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2012, 02:38:35 PM »
If I hadn't actually practiced martial arts with someone who has the same condition (nerves that apparently don't pass pain signals up[1]), I wouldn't have believed that Nam was telling the truth about his apparent inability to feel pain.  Without knowing that, Nam's statements would look like bluster, not facts.
 1. He didn't even react to joint locks which can be excruciatingly painful if pushed even a little too hard.

Know this. If your fellow martial arts practitioner pushes the blue button, he feels pain . . . lots of pain. I don't give a fuck about how much of a bad-ass he is before he pushes that button. Period.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2012, 03:42:31 PM »
It's a paradox though, if bible god did exist and he was almighty and powerful, why would Satan exist? Really? The story is that he was an angel(a lesser form than the almighty). Honestly if this hypothetical was real every human would pick red, maybe green if they're that naive, whether they say the would or not it doesn't value, you could say that on the Internet but anyone knows if bible god were proven to exist we all know how fucked up of a god he is, and how many innocent living organisms he killed, without barely reason. The bible god had always seemed to my like an old bitter grandfather, watching you all the time, making sure you don't enjoy the best things in life. So anyone who actually says red is just being logical and honest(even though we all know souls feeling pain doesn't make sense and hell is just a fear tool). So whether some people say blue we all know torture will make ANYONE crack. I conclude, don't lie and say blue, or lie and green. You weigh the logic between living eternally safe, or being tortured forever or, in the green case for a while. If god maybe the earth in 7 days we know by that pretense or in this hypothetical that god doesn't have the same time schedule we do. I use my iPhone and didn't proof read this.

I think there's some good points in there. I think somebody saying, "I would choose torture" is a pretty bold claim, I think if they've suffered tortured or have been trained to deal with it, it's still quite bold because of the point I had made in one of the previous threads. All of the suffering of every human and animal to have ever existence would be infinitely small compared to eternity. I think if you had to make the choice, you'd be aware of that and that's when it'd truly sink in and your own natural psychological defenses kick in and the answer isn't so easy anymore.

I've even said it before myself, that hell would be heaven and heaven would be hell but having given it more thought and consideration, I know that I would eventually break as there's no evidence to suggest that any man is unbreakable. I also know anybody can talk big and may even believe it, but once the situation comes around and their emotions, instinct and subconscious mind come into play, it's a different matter. I'm sure many people looking to serve in the military would claim to jump on a grenade to save the lives of their squad, but if the time comes they might jump out of the way. Your conscious and subconscious mind are fairly separate and generally it's your subconscious mind that's looking out for your wellbeing and has a habit of overriding any conscious decisions you try to make. It is possible to ignore your subconscious - people jump in front of trains, some people have jumped on grenades and done all sorts of things. But I don't think anybody can claim they would unless they've been put into that situation and had to deal with your natural psychological and instinctive actions. Given the ridiculous stakes, I don't think any sane man would force themselves against it, would turn away from their sudden emotion of dread and fear, their sudden realisation that they will be in severe pain forever. No end. You have the knowledge that you, as a human being, can be broken. You know that an infinitely powerful deity has the power to do it.

And the real unfortunate thing is, many Christians believe that this is what's going to happen to people like us and from their perspective, they are trying to saving us by trying to convert us. As much as we hate the gesture and feel it is intolerant, but they feel because of this that believing in their God is infinitely better than the alternative and it's horrifying to think of people living in that kind of fear and paranoia, where they have to behave to appease a God who very, very, very likely does not exist. It is also understandable as to why they try to use Pascal's Wager, as far as they're concerned their God is the 'one true God', they may not even wish to worship him at first, but feel they must. See the fear some people are fed as kids in order to set them on the righteous path (like on Jesus Camp) so that they maybe saved when they die. It makes me sick to my stomach that some people have to live like that. But if he were real and what the bible says on this were true, they only have to suffer for the few years they live in this universe, the rest for them is bliss.

[edit]

And I pressed the red button in this hypothetical situation. The blue button would be stupid of me, as much as I would love to stick it to the man, but considering the extent I lose...I mean, heck, I might go as far as accepting death (and no after life) as a punishment for sticking it to him, but the prospect of eternal torture is infinitely worse than anything else. Logically, I'd choose the 'least worst' option. The Green button is just the red button, except for a length of time I get to be tortured, sure I'm free from worshipping God, but in that time, I could be making light of this, "oh noes I have to worship God" situation and coming to terms with being a sell out. To my mind, it would just be accepting lots and lots amount of pain when in the end you're not going to gain anything out of it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 03:48:51 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline Irish

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2012, 04:07:24 PM »
A Hypothetical
Humanity, including you, accepts that Biblegod has been proven to exist. Suddenly [you] find yourself in a room with three buttons. The sign says -

Press the Red button to agree to worship god for the rest of your life.

Press the Blue button to not worship god and accept eternal torture upon death without the possibility of revocation.

Press the Green Button to accept torture upon death with an option. The option is, if you agree to worship god at any time during torture, the torture stops after a predetermined additional amount of time, and you will be sent to be with the others who decided to worship during their lives. The additional torture time (the amount of time cannot be revealed now) is payment for your not having worshiped god during your life. Where the others will be after death or what they will be doing cannot be revealed at this time.

You have 5 minutes to press a button - after 5 minutes and not having pressed a button, the system defaults to a press of the blue button.

Based on the strict guidelines of the hypothetical presented I'd push the Red button.  He is Biblegod - mean, genocidal, homicidal, and detestful to the utmost but he's also all-powerful.  What does it matter my intellectual and philosophical view of God if he does exist[1] and can send me to infinite torture at a whim.

Two of the buttons offer torture to some degree of time - infinite and eternal for the blue button and possibly "infinite and eternal" relative to my time frame.  The red button offers no torture, so long as I worship God.  As a normal human being of a sane and normal mental disposition I avoid pain and discomfort, like all organisms do.  My selection may be philosophically or intellectually detestable but I'd pick the Red button all day long and worship God to avoid eternal torture.
 1. According to the hypothetical he's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2012, 04:27:26 PM »
The main problem with the red button is that just following the rules is not enough.

It can be instantly revoked by god for a stray thought.  You have to *actually* love the god of the bible, according to the bible, otherwise it doesn't count.

That's why I lean toward the green one.  I know myself, I know that there is no way I could get through the commandments in the bible, even if we ignore the contradictory ones.

Hell, here I am breaking one of the commandments by wearing 'mixed' threads, plus my beard is probably all trimmed wrong.
That sort of shit doesn't fly with biblegod.  There is no 'gray are' with his rules.  Get it right, or fucking roast, sinner!

<-- burn in HELL sinner!
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Offline Irish

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2012, 04:40:10 PM »
It can be instantly revoked by god for a stray thought.  You have to *actually* love the god of the bible, according to the bible, otherwise it doesn't count.

I was just going by the rules of the hypothetical:

Quote from: HAL
...bow down, build altars, generate pleasing aroma's for it, etc.

I can do that and still not believe in BibleGod.  I can worship Zeus but not believe in Zeus or find Zeus agreeable.[1]

But if God can revoke my choice and send me to hell[2] then I would still choose the Red button.  At least with that selection I have the opportunity to not be tortured.  The other two selections have automatic torture built in.  I'd like to not be tortured for any amount of time.
 1. Zeus did some pretty shitty stuff too
 2. That option isn't strictly in the hypothetical but can be elaborated
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Offline HAL

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2012, 04:52:56 PM »
These are fun. I have more hypotheticals I'd like to post but I'm afraid I might get in trouble with gone golfing!

Offline Atheistisaweirdword

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2012, 09:43:51 PM »
It's a paradox though, if bible god did exist and he was almighty and powerful, why would Satan exist? Really? The story is that he was an angel(a lesser form than the almighty). Honestly if this hypothetical was real every human would pick red, maybe green if they're that naive, whether they say the would or not it doesn't value, you could say that on the Internet but anyone knows if bible god were proven to exist we all know how fucked up of a god he is, and how many innocent living organisms he killed, without barely reason. The bible god had always seemed to my like an old bitter grandfather, watching you all the time, making sure you don't enjoy the best things in life. So anyone who actually says red is just being logical and honest(even though we all know souls feeling pain doesn't make sense and hell is just a fear tool). So whether some people say blue we all know torture will make ANYONE crack. I conclude, don't lie and say blue, or lie and green. You weigh the logic between living eternally safe, or being tortured forever or, in the green case for a while. If god maybe the earth in 7 days we know by that pretense or in this hypothetical that god doesn't have the same time schedule we do. I use my iPhone and didn't proof read this.

I think there's some good points in there. I think somebody saying, "I would choose torture" is a pretty bold claim, I think if they've suffered tortured or have been trained to deal with it, it's still quite bold because of the point I had made in one of the previous threads. All of the suffering of every human and animal to have ever existence would be infinitely small compared to eternity. I think if you had to make the choice, you'd be aware of that and that's when it'd truly sink in and your own natural psychological defenses kick in and the answer isn't so easy anymore.

I've even said it before myself, that hell would be heaven and heaven would be hell but having given it more thought and consideration, I know that I would eventually break as there's no evidence to suggest that any man is unbreakable. I also know anybody can talk big and may even believe it, but once the situation comes around and their emotions, instinct and subconscious mind come into play, it's a different matter. I'm sure many people looking to serve in the military would claim to jump on a grenade to save the lives of their squad, but if the time comes they might jump out of the way. Your conscious and subconscious mind are fairly separate and generally it's your subconscious mind that's looking out for your wellbeing and has a habit of overriding any conscious decisions you try to make. It is possible to ignore your subconscious - people jump in front of trains, some people have jumped on grenades and done all sorts of things. But I don't think anybody can claim they would unless they've been put into that situation and had to deal with your natural psychological and instinctive actions. Given the ridiculous stakes, I don't think any sane man would force themselves against it, would turn away from their sudden emotion of dread and fear, their sudden realisation that they will be in severe pain forever. No end. You have the knowledge that you, as a human being, can be broken. You know that an infinitely powerful deity has the power to do it.

And the real unfortunate thing is, many Christians believe that this is what's going to happen to people like us and from their perspective, they are trying to saving us by trying to convert us. As much as we hate the gesture and feel it is intolerant, but they feel because of this that believing in their God is infinitely better than the alternative and it's horrifying to think of people living in that kind of fear and paranoia, where they have to behave to appease a God who very, very, very likely does not exist. It is also understandable as to why they try to use Pascal's Wager, as far as they're concerned their God is the 'one true God', they may not even wish to worship him at first, but feel they must. See the fear some people are fed as kids in order to set them on the righteous path (like on Jesus Camp) so that they maybe saved when they die. It makes me sick to my stomach that some people have to live like that. But if he were real and what the bible says on this were true, they only have to suffer for the few years they live in this universe, the rest for them is bliss.

[edit]

And I pressed the red button in this hypothetical situation. The blue button would be stupid of me, as much as I would love to stick it to the man, but considering the extent I lose...I mean, heck, I might go as far as accepting death (and no after life) as a punishment for sticking it to him, but the prospect of eternal torture is infinitely worse than anything else. Logically, I'd choose the 'least worst' option. The Green button is just the red button, except for a length of time I get to be tortured, sure I'm free from worshipping God, but in that time, I could be making light of this, "oh noes I have to worship God" situation and coming to terms with being a sell out. To my mind, it would just be accepting lots and lots amount of pain when in the end you're not going to gain anything out of it.

I know this is kind of irrelevant to the thread but yeah I just learned about the subconscious, read incognito by David Eagleman's incognito. Definitely flipped my perspective on free will and how the human brain works.
I strive to simply just make sense.

Offline dloubet

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2012, 11:42:09 PM »
Has to be red button. Given the confines of the scenario as stated, you can press the red button, get to heaven, and then fart in god's general direction. Worship him? Fuck that. What's it going to do to me? There is no penalty offered for lying when you push the red button. So push the red button, and then spend eternity trying to figure out a way to destroy the god, or rescue all those trapped in hell. You don't actually have to worship the god, just promise you will and then blow it off.

Unless, of course, Hal wants to add a penalty for lying to his OP scenario.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2012, 02:31:02 AM »
The problem, as I mentioned in my own post is that you have to 'actually' love god in addition to following all the rules.

Just following the rules is not enough.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2012, 10:01:10 AM »
Anyways a slightly off topic thought:

If heaven is so unbelievably amazing, why is hell even necessary?

What I have always wondered, if heaven is so unbelievably amazing, why aren't Christians committing suicide to go to this unbelievably amazing heaven instead of staying on Earth making life a living hell for everybody else? Read the letters of Paul, I think, to the Corinthians. That man himself said he was very suicidal, but only didn't commit the act because he wanted to see more people "make it" to heaven.

The Catholics have made the excuse that suicide is one of those damnable sins, so I understand them, but what of the Orthodox and Protestants?
I would like to know why they seek medical attention.....leave it in the hands of God and thats all......they seek medical attention to prolong their lives because as much as they hope God is real....they have doubts
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2012, 05:47:40 PM »
But - I don't understand something Jetson. You can still have eternal torture if you press green. You just have more options, otherwise it's the same if you want it to be.

So why press blue at all? I'm just so fascinated by this answer.

HAL, I'm not intending to put words in jetson's mouth, but I can think of a logical reason to push blue: if we are to assume that pushing the red button and claiming to worship god entails 'obeying' god, *and* if one makes the judgment of god's moral character as 'evil', *and* if one makes the assumption that god's influence on reality can be increased with more and more worshipers, then the compelling reason to hit the blue button is to assure that you will never, ever join the evil regime, regardless of how distraught you may become.

a) there are assumptions above and beyond what you had expressed in your hypothetical, but I suspect some of the 'blue-buttoners' hold to some of those assumptions.  For example, the bible seems to imply (in stark contrast to what the bible explicitly claims [or rather, what god explicitly claims]) that god's *actual* power is directly proportional to the number of followers s/he/it has to exert an effect in the universe.  Ergo, assuring that you do not join the ranks of worshipers is, in some small (undefinable) way, a means of reducing the net power available to god for nefarious purposes.

b) I suspect that I personally do *not* have the moral fortitude to outright accept eternal torture as my desired alternative to joining the forces of evil.  Being a Sith lord, after all, has some perks and I may very well be too selfish to pass those up.  Which I think means that I just pressed the green button.

In essence, what I'm saying is that it may very well be the lack of options that makes the blue button an option.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2012, 06:37:05 PM »
This is not a poll it's a discussion.

A Hypothetical

Humanity, including you, accepts that Biblegod has been proven to exist. Suddenly find yourself in a room with three buttons. The sign says -

Press the Red button to agree to worship god for the rest of your life.

Press the Blue button to not worship god and accept eternal torture upon death without the possibility of revocation.

Press the Green Button to accept torture upon death with an option. The option is, if you agree to worship god at any time during torture, the torture stops after a predetermined additional amount of time,
Let me rephrase:
Humanity, including you, accepts that the outside lane of the New Jersey Turnpike has been proven to exist. Suddenly find yourself in a room with three buttons. The sign says -

Press the Red button to agree to keep to all advisory signs on and near the New Jersey Turnpike and thus live a long and healthy life.

Press the Blue button to be transported immediately to the outside lane of the New Jersey Turnpike and accept that you will, at some time, be crippled and brain-damaged.

Press the Green Button to accept being crippled and brain-damaged on the NJTP but with an option. The option is, “if you agree to keep to keep to all advisory signs on and near the New Jersey Turnpike at any time during your painful and almost vegetative state, then your insurance company will cough up sufficient funds for you to be treated such that you will recover.”

I don’t think superstition has much to do with it.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline HAL

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Re: A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2012, 07:49:31 PM »
I thought this topic was dead - LOL.