A new Hypothetical - Three Options For Your Consideration

[bertatberts]

You are trying to get information that is not available in the hypothetical. You have to consider you are in the room and you have the three choices and that's it.

Yes agreed but even then I would be considering the options I put forward.

Time's running out for analysis - it ain't a forum it's the real deal and your ass is sitting there. If you want to analyze the fucking situation for more than 5 minutes in your own mind in the room, go for it, but you''ll get a blue button.

An omni-max god would know whether I was sincere. So what is actually being said in the room with the buttons is you can choose any button as long as it's blue. Press red and your deemed insincere so it becomes blue, press green and the same thing happens take too long and it blue yet again. So every colour is essentially blue, if you wish to keep your dignity.  And no it isn’t dignity over certain punishment, its dignity through honesty.

To my mind regarding Blue vs. Green -
If you're a real badass and want to prove it to god, really show it you're committed to giving it the finger, proving you can stand up to anything it can dish out forever, you will pick green. Having a way out and still taking the torture would be the most impressive choice if that's your goal.

How so. The truly impressive protest would be to press the blue button, by this you are saying I will to take all you can give and then some, and not the cowardly button with the sycophants way out.
This is like saying jesus'(green)stay for three days in hell and then being resurrected, is the equivalent of Prometheus'(Blue) sacrifice of having his liver pecked out by Crows for all eternity.

It's almost as if they want to give themselves punishment with no way out, for some reason.

These are the biblegods rules not mine I don’t actually choose to press blue. There is no other option. If I wish to keep my dignity.

Edit: addition.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Yes, I've exercised. I understand the muscle fatigue you're talking about, but I don't think building up lactic acid and leaking calcium in my muscles could compare to Yahweh's Nightmare Torturehouse of Pure Evil™.

The thing about lactating acid and such is that you know that it will soon come to and end. You also have reasonable assurance that you will eventually build up your endurance and tolerance. You also have the added benefit of know that their is a reward for your hard work.

With bible god, eternal manual labor and worship IS your reward. It never ends. You never have time to heal because you are constantly made to heel.

In comparison to the latter, I would describe building an altar or burning a goat for God as painless.

Yeah, if you only had to do it a few times sure. But what the bible describes is more like Sisyphus pushing a boulder up a mountain...Your work is never done....ever.

I can see no real difference in which particular torture you prefer. So, as a choice...if I had one...I would choose not to be in His Holy presence.

[jetson]

...compare to Yahweh's Nightmare Torturehouse of Pure Evil™.

If HAL had put it this way in the first place, I might have chosen red!   

[Zankuu]

Mr. Blackwell, can we agree that God's heaven would essentially be an uncomfortable, lactic acid-filled never ending slavery? Now stack slavery up against the discomfort from the worst you can imagine Yahweh's eternal nightmare realm has to offer. Seriously, take your time to come up with some really sick stuff. Go ahead, I'll wait minutes/hours/days.

...

So what kind of eternal torture chamber did you design? If it was anything close to as horrifying as mine, then the idea of choosing the blue button accompanied by courageous thoughts of “sticking it to the man” would all vanish as soon as you pressed it; Yahweh would make sure the only thing you felt was deep, agonizing regret. You still picking blue?

[jetson]

You know, my thought is not generally revolving around "sticking it to the man".  If BibleGod is real, that would be impossible. 

[Mr. Blackwell]

Mr. Blackwell, can we agree that God's heaven would essentially be an uncomfortable, lactic acid-filled never ending slavery? Now stack slavery up against the discomfort from the worst you can imagine Yahweh's eternal nightmare realm has to offer. Seriously, take your time to come up with some really sick stuff. Go ahead, I'll wait minutes/hours/days.

...

So what kind of eternal torture chamber did you design? If it was anything close to as horrifying as mine, then the idea of choosing the blue button accompanied by courageous thoughts of “sticking it to the man” would all vanish as soon as you pressed it; Yahweh would make sure the only thing you felt was deep, agonizing regret. You still picking blue?

You gotta understand, the thought of eternal ANYTHING drives me insane. It does not matter if it's eternal flaying of the skin or eternal ass fucking with a giant saguaro or having to rape my daughter with a giant saguaro or anything from the SAW movie franchise or bowing down to a narcissistic psychopath for all eternity.

Doing anything for eternity will drive the average mind insane. So...

If I have to choose now...NOW while I still live, to worship Him in this life AND forever after OR live the rest of my life as I see fit then suffer the consequences, then I still choose to suffer the consequences and enjoy life to the fullest while I still can.

End of story.

P.S.
Bible God isn't real and neither is Bible Heaven or Bible Hell....But you knew that already.

[Death over Life]

HAL, the answer is Blue again.

You need help with wanting to change Blue button optioners. Let me give a better green button as an example:

RED is Worship God

BLUE is Eternal Torture

GREEN is God leaves us alone, there is no torment, and we just simply exist for eternity away from God and torture, and just live our eternity.

Perhaps if the options were like this, I would choose Green, that way I don't get the Hell of Worshipping a Tyrant God, and I don't get the Hell of Eternal Torture, but I get the win-win of Him and I just peacefully leaving each other alone and letting us both do whatever for eternity without worrying of the other person or getting roasted for whatever reason.

[Grogs]

....eternal painless manual labor...

What makes you think manual labor is painless? You ever try it? I recommend you try the overhead arm clap 100 times...correctly, without slouching. Then imagine doing it forever.

Oh man, that brings back memories. Back in '92 I went to the Army Air Assault course. On the first day of PT, this short, squat little Master Sergeant hopped up on the platform and yelled, "The overhand clap! Ready! Exercise!" We were all a bunch of tough 20-year olds who were used to doing a hundred push ups or running 5 miles, so we just laughed, 'what the fuck is this crap?" Twenty minutes later, that dude was still knocking those things out, but none of us could lift our arms anymore. Twenty year later, I still cringe when I think about doing those things. I'm staring to like the red button less and less. 

[Grogs]

The thing is, I can't figure out these blue-button people. If anyone else can I'd much appreciate any help you can give me understanding them because what they are saying just makes no sense at all to me. It's almost as if they want to give themselves punishment with no way out, for some reason.

OK, so let me help. In this scenario, I'm essentially Winston Smith in 1984. I can press the red button and declare my love for Big Brother. If I press the green button, I know that at some point I'll be sent to room 101 and I'll confess my love for Big Brother, so what's the point in that? If I really think Big Brother is an asshole, I want to make an irrevocable decision to never confess my love to him. Once I press the blue button (or pocket veto), I never have to worry about that decision again.

[HAL]

OK, so let me help.

Oh I can't wait.

In this scenario, I'm essentially Winston Smith in 1984. I can press the red button and declare my love for Big Brother.

FAIL. That's not what the red button makes you do. Love can not be forced.

If I press the green button, I know that at some point I'll be sent to room 101 and I'll confess my love for Big Brother, so what's the point in that?

Keep reading ...

If I really think Big Brother is an asshole, I want to make an irrevocable decision to never confess my love to him. Once I press the blue button (or pocket veto), I never have to worry about that decision again.

That's why Blue is the wimp's way to take it (if you are dumb enough to choose torture). Blue is for wimpy Rambos. Green is for the real Rambos. Show me your kahunas and pick Green - show me you can take eternal torture even with an escape clause waiting at your fingertips. You have it all backwards LOL. God is not impressed.

[Grogs]

FAIL. That's not what the red button makes you do. Love can not be forced.

I disagree with the last sentence. If YHWH can harden pharaoh's heart, why can't he force us to love him? All he'd have to do is implant the thought into our brains and make us believe it's our own. Even if it's not a literal statement of love, pushing the red button is an admission of willingness to kiss YHWH's ass for the rest of eternity. Doing that despite thinking he's a total dick would be even worse than being brainwashed into loving him IMO.

[BaalServant]

Very nice trap, Hal.  I hadn't opened the thread regarding the Red button and the Blue button as I was still considering my response. 

Considering I have five minutes to decide, I'm going to go with the Blue button.

Considering the dishonesty presented regarding the bible god, I still could never honestly trust it, even if it were objectively proven to be an actuality.



Edit: removed repeated statement from post.

[BaalServant]

The thing is, I can't figure out these blue-button people. If anyone else can I'd much appreciate any help you can give me understanding them because what they are saying just makes no sense at all to me. It's almost as if they want to give themselves punishment with no way out, for some reason.

It isn't really that I see myself as a badass who can take anything.  I'm pretty confident that I would fold and say anything under sufficient torture, and for that reason, what I say under duress would be a cop out; I wouldn't want the Green button because this would allow a dishonest cop out to lock me into a lie for the rest of eternity. 

I can't imagine being satisfied with having regrets at the back of my mind for eternity.



Another reason for choosing the Blue button is based again on biblegod's fallacious track record, and it ends up working out to be a Green button in the end, anyway. 

Reality obviously came about differently than it's claimed that biblegod caused it to come about.  Also, consider that if it turns out that this universe did require a more complex being to bring it about, it's reasonable to assume that there would be a whole pantheon of ever increasingly complex gods begetting these lesser complex gods.  (I really hate even bringing up the Kalam argument, but in this hypothetical, it actually applies).

The scenario here would be that either biblegod didn't accurately explain to humans how it made the universe, or it would be that it was a different god that made the universe and biblegod just took credit.  Either way, biblegod's a liar.

Basically, I'm making Pascal's wager that there's a better god that biblegod that would come to the rescue of those who were wrongfully abused by it. 

[lomolo]

Assuming that worshiping him meant that I would live eternally (or until he snuffed us all out) in bliss then I would take that.

Does that make me a bad person? :S

[HAL]

I disagree with the last sentence. If YHWH can harden pharaoh's heart, why can't he force us to love him? All he'd have to do is implant the thought into our brains and make us believe it's our own.

OK, well so what? If it gets implanted then you won't have any regrets or problems with it. Sounds a hell of a lot better than eternal torture. I'll take it.

Assuming that worshiping him meant that I would live eternally (or until he snuffed us all out) in bliss then I would take that.

Does that make me a bad person? :S

No. it makes you a very smart person.

[HAL]

It isn't really that I see myself as a badass who can take anything.  I'm pretty confident that I would fold and say anything under sufficient torture, and for that reason, what I say under duress would be a cop out; I wouldn't want the Green button because this would allow a dishonest cop out to lock me into a lie for the rest of eternity. 

But that's my point. You admit you couldn't take it. You ARE going to tell the torturer to stop whether or not you pressed blue or green. You are going to cop out either way. That's why it's already been explained you are foolish to pick a situation you know you are going to cop out of. I just don't understand who or what you are trying to make a point to. Nobody who pressed the red button gives a rat's ass about you now. God doesn't give a rat's ass, whoever's running Hell doesn't give a rat's ass. So again, I just don't get these blue button people.

Now if you said you would never tell the torturer to stop then you wouldn't be copping out. You should press the green button if you want anyone to believe you would hold to your commitment.

[lotanddaughters]

Another reason for choosing the Blue button is based again on biblegod's fallacious track record, and it ends up working out to be a Green button in the end, anyway. 

Reality obviously came about differently than it's claimed that biblegod caused it to come about.  Also, consider that if it turns out that this universe did require a more complex being to bring it about, it's reasonable to assume that there would be a whole pantheon of ever increasingly complex gods begetting these lesser complex gods.  (I really hate even bringing up the Kalam argument, but in this hypothetical, it actually applies).

The scenario here would be that either biblegod didn't accurately explain to humans how it made the universe, or it would be that it was a different god that made the universe and biblegod just took credit.  Either way, biblegod's a liar.

Basically, I'm making Pascal's wager that there's a better god that biblegod that would come to the rescue of those who were wrongfully abused by it.

HAL, we might have to make another hypothetical that substitutes a hypothetical omni-truth god for Biblegod, so that we may explore the mysterious world of these blue-button people more thoroughly. Let's face it. Biblegod is an omni-faced liar.

Having said that, I would still choose red with Biblegod. It might take millions of years before one of the higher-on-the-totem-pole-than-Biblegod gods comes to my rescue. Time is relative to the observer, and torture makes time seem to go by very slowly.

[screwtape]

Humanity, including you, accepts that Biblegod has been proven to exist.

It is a difficult hypothetical for a lot of reasons. 

First, pretty much anything is preferable to infinite torture.  For example, would you rather receive oral sex or suffer eternal infinite torture?  Yeah, I'll take the oral sex please.  Oh really?  How about nonstop for eternity?  When I think about it, doing anything eternally becomes indistinguishable from torture. 

Second, the concept of eternal or infinite is not something I can wrap my little, human brain around.  While it might actually be The Worst Possible Thing Forever, I cannot grasp it, and so might be inclined to choose it over worshiping a god that sounds pretty awful as well.  And I do not say that as an internet toughguy.  I say that as someone who just cannot possibly grasp "eternal" or "infinite". 

But I think the real sticking point for me is in the quote above from the OP.  You say "Biblegod", but the bible does not present a consistent, coherent god.  It presents at least two different versions - OT and NT.  And you might even split the NT god into the god of jesus H and the god of Paul. 

The OT god is a horrible, petty, capricious and vindictive prick.  I would be less inclined to choose to worship yhwh over infinite torture (but I probably would).  However, the NT god, also known as God with a capital G, is allegedly all loving, caring, wonderful, flowers and puppies.  I would be inclined to worship this god even without the threat of torture. 

But I do not know of which god we are speaking.  Heck, even the 35,000+ versions of xianity cannot agree.  So it would help to know which god we are being forced to decide on.

[BaalServant]

But that's my point. You admit you couldn't take it. You ARE going to tell the torturer to stop whether or not you pressed blue or green. You are going to cop out either way.

Yes, but I don't consider a cop out under duress to be something to be taken as my honest thoughts. 

That's why it's already been explained you are foolish to pick a situation you know you are going to cop out of.

If I chose Blue, my eventual dishonest cop out still wouldn't result in a cooperation with the biblegod.  I know that I won't be expected to then live out eternity under a false premise, which would be the case had I chosen Green.

To me, it would be more foolish to set myself up for the eventual cooperation with biblegod. 

I just don't understand who or what you are trying to make a point to. Nobody who pressed the red button gives a rat's ass about you now. God doesn't give a rat's ass, whoever's running Hell doesn't give a rat's ass. So again, I just don't get these blue button people.

I would give a rats ass, so ultimately it's my selfishness that I'm appealing to.  If all I really have in this existence are my thoughts, I'm not going to sell myself out and cooperate with biblegod.

Now if you said you would never tell the torturer to stop then you wouldn't be copping out. You should press the green button if you want anyone to believe you would hold to your commitment.

I honestly can't predict that I wouldn't lose my sanity having endured a few eternities of torture, and I don't want any dishonest admission of worship to be able to be used by biblegod, but while my mind is under my own control, I'm never going to side with biblegod or make a decision that could result in my siding with biblegod.


I also think those who are opting for Blue are simply heavier on the altruism in their personalities, and it's not necessarily reasons you're looking for to explain this, but behaviors. 

[BaalServant]

But I do not know of which god we are speaking.  Heck, even the 35,000+ versions of xianity cannot agree.  So it would help to know which god we are being forced to decide on.

Your post is a lot of what makes this an easier decision for me - I really don't think this biblegod is really anything to fear if it's not even able to present itself in any cohesive manner.

[Kimberly]

So last night I was reminiscing on the joys of child labor. I was thinking about how different both my daughters births were and comparing stories. It then donged on me that with my youngest I was screaming for the epidural! I was seriously the stereotypical angry woman you see on TV or in the movies. I was cussing out the nurses and my fiance, I was just in so much pain. My youngest was entirely back labor. I know there's a lot of men here; and none of you have ever experienced back labor, but I will just tell you it is by far the most excruciating pain I've ever felt.

I was then reminded of this thread... so I considered the thought of back labor for all eternity. LMFAO it's not happening folks. I couldn't keep my composure for a few hours of back labor... all eternity? Who the fuck was I kidding? I will kiss hanks ass[1].

I apologize for being so sure previously. I really thought about this for a long time and thought I knew how would I answer. But I could never go through back labor for eternity. I'd be lying if I said I could. Heaven might be hellish, but if there's no back labor I will take my chances in heaven thank you.

1.	Put "Kissing Hank's Ass" in YouTube if you don't get the reference

[The Wannabe]

Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”  I don't know about you guys, but i'm pretty damn sure the red button is somewhat of a no-brainer.

There also some Christians who believe that the "second death", also mentioned in Revelations[1], is merely the total annihilation of the sinner in question, the eternal non-existence of that person's consciousness.  There is no everlasting Saw movie starring you as the helpless victim and a gleefully hellish Jack Nicholson brandishing a dental drill, just sweet, sweet unconsciousness. 

Now, i know this isn't the way Hal set up his hypothetical, but i wonder how many people would chose the blue button if the result was eternal death, and not eternal torture.  Just food for thought 

1.	Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6&14, Rev 21:8

[jetson]

On a slight side-note, I do ask Christians about this heaven/hell dichotomy, and they never have a good answer.  Surprise.  If heaven is so unbelievably amazing, why is hell even necessary?  Many of you have heard this before, but have you ever heard an explanation that made any sense?  And what kind of loving father finds it necessary to torture one for eternity, as opposed to simply letting them revert back to nothing - missing out on eternal bliss?  I mean, in the end, if the lure of heaven is not attractive enough, then this god truly sucks beyond hope.

[gonegolfing]

Hal, why don't you just become a fucking theist already and just be done with it ? 

There's genius in that new hypothetical you've created and so you know that you're setting yourself up quite nicely for a beautiful come to jesus conversion don't you ? Take the plunge now and you could be baptised and in the church choir by Sunday ! ...Shakama !!

  Keep plugging though if you must, as I see that your raging hard on for all this nonsense has gotten you another confession and convert for your very own personal collection of "redheads"

Dude...seriously.

[Zankuu]

If anything these threads have made me aware that I have reasons for not wanting to believe the Christian god exists and reasons I don't believe the Christian gods exist, and that I've been mix 'n matching both with gay abandon in my arguments. Still, an argument from the reasons I wouldn't want to believe the Christian god exists is, I think, a powerful tool.

[HAL]

Hal, why don't you just become a fucking theist already and just be done with it ? 

It's all about the proof homey. If Jeebus was proven (no, I don't know how it could be done) but if it was, sure I'd be a Christian. WTF would you expect? I'd also be a Zeusian if Zeus was proven, or a Anubisian if Anubis was proven and so on. You'd be a fool not to and risk the wrath of said god. But hey, you want to tell a proven deity to fuck off? Let me get my lawn chair and iced drink so I can watch the show.

There's genius in that new hypothetical you've created and so you know that you're setting yourself up quite nicely for a beautiful come to jesus conversion don't you ? Take the plunge now and you could be baptised and in the church choir by Sunday ! ...Shakama !!

I know it's genius.  Why don't you try to outdo my hypothetical instead of complaining about it? Let's see what you come up with. I''ll answer it.

Keep plugging though if you must, as I see that your raging hard on for all this nonsense has gotten you another confession and convert for your very own personal collection of "redheads"

I would make a good preacher wouldn't I? 

[gonegolfing]

There's genius in that new hypothetical you've created and so you know that you're setting yourself up quite nicely for a beautiful come to jesus conversion don't you ? Take the plunge now and you could be baptised and in the church choir by Sunday ! ...Shakama !!

I know it's genius.  Why don't you try to outdo my hypothetical instead of complaining about it? Let's see what you come up with. I'll answer it.

Look Hal, I've tried to be subtle and as lighthearted about this irrelevant and disturbing thread as I could with the hope that it would just go away.

But if you want hypothetical Hal then here you go.....and actually, it's more than likely probable........

Theists, and perhaps many theists, have read this thread and no doubt smirked with delight that atheists would be fearful of one of its doctrines..... But that's not the problem: The problem lies in the distinct possibility of some of them--and even if it were just one of them-- could very easily be motivated by this thread to stand up from their computer and go to their child and go about freshly instilling this vile and disgusting doctrine into their innocent little minds.

Yeah, that's right....how's that for a fucking hypothetical scenario ? Pretty sick isn't it ? You never thought of that though did you Mr. genius ?

If just one child were to have that evil scenario implanted into their minds because of some totalitarian melon-headed fuckwadian parent who's been newly motivated by reading your thread and then becomes hell bent on insuring that their child gets in and stays in-- Then you sir should be the first to hang your head, hide your face, and weep.


To all you theists who might be finding delight in this thread and perhaps considering doing the above..... then let be it known that you're more pathetic than words can describe and as evil as one can be if so.


Sorry Hal, but this isn't a contest so I have no interest in "outdoing" you.

My only interest is that this thread, and its ilk, stop, and that these kind of mindbendingly useless--and possibly damaging-- discussions never start.



 

 

   
 

[Zankuu]

Oh please, gg, this has been a very fun thread. We aren't breaking new ground here by inventing Pascal's Wager for a theist to use. Do you really think instilling the fear of hell in a child would never have crossed a Christian parent's mind until they stumbled upon this thread?

[HAL]

My only interest is that this thread, and its ilk, stop, and that these kind of mindbendingly useless--and possibly damaging-- discussions never start.

So let me be clear what you want.

You want to further limit free speech under the existing rules, and you appear to wish that some limitations on what we talk about be installed under the rules here. Something about this type of thread and it's "ilk", something regarding "mindbendingly useless--and possibly damaging-- discussions". So you feel we have several types of damaging discussions and this is one of them?

OK. I have a suggestion for you. Let's bring it up to management and see what they say about your idea. If they rule for you and design new rules or guidelines to follow, I'd be happy to follow them. If you start a discussion about that, I'll chime in. You'll have to define the following:

A. mindbendingly useless discussions
B. possibly damaging discussions
C. What other types of threads (ilk) there are that you disagree should be posted.

Thanks.