Author Topic: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?  (Read 2129 times)

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2012, 05:47:36 AM »
Which is to say, that what humans try to do on their own strength will always be inadequate, and tending towards sinfulness, if not total depravity.  Which is not to say that atheists, or anyone else, are incapable of doing good deeds, loving their children, cleaning up after their dogs, etc.  We're all endowed with a conscience which tells us right from wrong.  However, the natural man is incapable of pleasing God in any respect.  Our works themselves are not a factor in determining our favor with God;  just as your work at the orphanage isn't going to get you off the hook for grand theft auto.

That's a blanket statement that shows just how arrogant you are.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2012, 05:48:13 AM »
Quote from: burnish
Psalm 53:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.
Hi Burnish and welcome. Could you explain. how that is a reference to an atheist in particular. and why it can't mean a person who is a non believer in the christian god, but a believer in another god?

It doesn't specify an atheist or atheism, etc. Anywhere in the bible, all it mentions and only in the NT may I add, is unbeliever, unbelief, and unbelieving.
 
If it doesn't specify an atheist then it isn't an answer to the OP.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

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Offline burnish

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2012, 05:52:06 AM »
Which is to say, that what humans try to do on their own strength will always be inadequate, and tending towards sinfulness, if not total depravity.  Which is not to say that atheists, or anyone else, are incapable of doing good deeds, loving their children, cleaning up after their dogs, etc.  We're all endowed with a conscience which tells us right from wrong.  However, the natural man is incapable of pleasing God in any respect.  Our works themselves are not a factor in determining our favor with God;  just as your work at the orphanage isn't going to get you off the hook for grand theft auto.

That's a blanket statement that shows just how arrogant you are.

I believe the bible is true, and that is what my statement is based upon;  the truth I find in scripture.  It's not something I just pulled out of my hat.  You can call that arrogant if you wish, but I don't see how it is.

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2012, 05:54:17 AM »
You can call that arrogant if you wish, but I don't see how it is.

You assume that everyone is exactly the way you think they are, even though you've never met everyone and/or analyzed their behavior and personality. That's what's arrogant about that. I advise you to lay off the blanket statements before you hurt yourself.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2012, 05:55:33 AM »
Bertaberts, whilst I don't especially want to join this thread, I will point out that God proclaims himself to be the one and only God. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that any reference to an unbeliever is a reference to what we today know as an atheist. Because God emphatically states there are no other Gods, unbelief in Him is unbelief in all Gods.

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Offline burnish

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2012, 05:57:26 AM »
Quote from: burnish
Psalm 53:1
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.
Hi Burnish and welcome. Could you explain. how that is a reference to an atheist in particular. and why it can't mean a person who is a non believer in the christian god, but a believer in another god?

It doesn't specify an atheist or atheism, etc. Anywhere in the bible, all it mentions and only in the NT may I add, is unbeliever, unbelief, and unbelieving.
 
If it doesn't specify an atheist then it isn't an answer to the OP.

Hey bertatberts, nice to meet you.  I would say it is possible but the verse doesn't refer to the Christian God in particular.  It is speaking in generic terms when it refers to God, which suggests that it is the rejection of any deity at all.  The commentaries I've read all seem to agree with this characterization

Offline burnish

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2012, 05:59:03 AM »
You can call that arrogant if you wish, but I don't see how it is.

You assume that everyone is exactly the way you think they are, even though you've never met everyone and/or analyzed their behavior and personality. That's what's arrogant about that. I advise you to lay off the blanket statements before you hurt yourself.

What I assume is that the bible is true and that it accurately describes the condition of man.  Again, you can call that arrogant but I don't see how it is.

Offline jetson

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2012, 06:01:05 AM »
You can call that arrogant if you wish, but I don't see how it is.

You assume that everyone is exactly the way you think they are, even though you've never met everyone and/or analyzed their behavior and personality. That's what's arrogant about that. I advise you to lay off the blanket statements before you hurt yourself.

What I assume is that the bible is true and that it accurately describes the condition of man.  Again, you can call that arrogant but I don't see how it is.

I am an atheist.  There is no god, there never was, and there never will be.  Am I going to burn in Hell for all eternity according to your beliefs?

Offline burnish

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2012, 06:32:02 AM »
You can call that arrogant if you wish, but I don't see how it is.

You assume that everyone is exactly the way you think they are, even though you've never met everyone and/or analyzed their behavior and personality. That's what's arrogant about that. I advise you to lay off the blanket statements before you hurt yourself.

What I assume is that the bible is true and that it accurately describes the condition of man.  Again, you can call that arrogant but I don't see how it is.

I am an atheist.  There is no god, there never was, and there never will be.  Am I going to burn in Hell for all eternity according to your beliefs?

Well Jetson, I want you to know that this isn't an issue I take lightly.  I understand, having once been a non-believer, why you may take offense to a belief in eternal punishment.  I would ask you to understand what the scripture says about the matter:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is saying that God is patient towards those who do not believe, because it is not His ultimate desire to punish you.  That is why He sent his son here, so He wouldn't have to.  Scripture describes the problem:

Romans 1:18-21

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

It is saying very clearly that God provides everyone with sufficient evidence to come to know Him, and to know what is to come after death, but that men suppress the truth, and that they have no excuse.

I know from my own experience that this is true.  Although I knew there was a God when I was younger, and even prayed to him, I suppressed that truth later on.  Mercifully, I was given a wake up call later in life, although I could have chosen to deny it, or write it off. 

So, to clarify, I believe that God gives everyone such revelation.  You are obviously aware of the judgment that is coming for all men.  I do not want that to happen to you, or anyone.  That is why Christians witness, to give non-believers the opportunity to come to know the Lord, and be forgiven for their sins.  That is why it is called the good news.  Again, it is the reason that Jesus died on the cross.  What God is not going to do is force you to decide; what He will do is give you sufficient chance to choose life and repent.   




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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2012, 06:34:10 AM »
burnish, if you cannot see your own arrogance and condescension, then we have nothing to discuss. As such, I'm not going to reply to you anymore.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline burnish

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2012, 07:01:17 AM »
burnish, if you cannot see your own arrogance and condescension, then we have nothing to discuss. As such, I'm not going to reply to you anymore.

I assume you've spoken with Christians before, and most Christians believe what I said is true.  Are you only open to speaking to those who do not believe the bible is true?  That is what I base my reasoning on.  If you want to ignore me for believing it,  I think that is a rather perplexing attitude for someone who debates Christians.  A belief in the inherently sinful nature of man is nigh universal among us.  So either you end up ignoring nearly every Christian you talk to, or you've just singled me out for abuse.

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2012, 07:15:55 AM »
A large percentage of christians (99.9%) with whom I speak on a daily basis can usually hold off on the assumptions of my "sinful nature" and how "depraved" I am until they actually know me. So yes, I am singling you out. But not because I have a problem with theists.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2012, 07:48:18 AM »
Quote from: burnish
Hey bertatberts, nice to meet you.  I would say it is possible but the verse doesn't refer to the Christian God in particular.
Oh so it wasn't written in the bible? do you know which god it refers too then?
Quote from: Burnish
It is speaking in generic terms when it refers to God, which suggests that it is the rejection of any deity at all.
it suggest nothing at all, other then it is the rejection of the god of the bible. it doesn't say gods it says “There is no God.”
Quote from: Burnish
The commentaries I've read all seem to agree with this characterization
Whatever commentaries there are, are quite irrelevant, as they are mere opinion. It says what it says, extrapolating what it actually means is bs. the literal truth is that unbeliever means, anybody who doesn't worship the god of the bible.


Bertaberts, whilst I don't especially want to join this thread, I will point out that God proclaims himself to be the one and only God. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that any reference to an unbeliever is a reference to what we today know as an atheist. Because God emphatically states there are no other Gods, unbelief in Him is unbelief in all Gods.
Would that be the god of adam or the god of jesus?
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2012, 08:03:07 AM »



Would that be the god of adam or the god of jesus?

Only one God, a triune God. Summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2012, 09:18:14 AM »
burnish,

you are talking in circles. 

1.  You insult us by saying we are fools who are abominations who can do no good.  here
2. then you try to say "it wasn't me" and "I agree with it" all in the same post.  You unsuccessfully try to mitigate that by saying "we all are unworthy".  here
3. you further speak with forked tongue by saying "it wasn't me, it was god, so it's right". here

You are new and I'd like you to stay, but I hope you see my problem.  You are trying to say something rather inflammatory, insulting and obviously untrue, but you seem to not want to own your position.  If the psalm quote is true and you agree with it, take responsibility for it. Come right out and tell us you think we are fools. Tell us we are abominations.  Tell us we can do nothing good.  You need to own your position.  Trying to foist it off onto to yhwh is not admirable.

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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2012, 09:22:02 AM »



Would that be the god of Adam or the god of Jesus?

Only one God, a triune God. Summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Doesn't answer the question sorry. The god of Adam is one of many, so most certainly is not the one and only.  and one of the commandments says "thou shalt have no other gods before me" which says the OT biblegod is one of many. and certainly not three parts of itself.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2012, 11:28:23 AM »
What I assume is that the bible is true and that it accurately describes the condition of man.  Again, you can call that arrogant but I don't see how it is.

You assume that your particular ancient holy book is correct, out of the various mythologies and holy books out there.

You assume that it is correct where others are wrong, insofar as these holy books have conflicting cosmologies

You assume because of your cosmology, that you have an understanding what the creator of the universe likes and dislikes.

You assume through this holy book that billions of galaxies were created for the benefit of your species, and that your species is the darling creation of the creator of the universe

You assume because of this holy book that you do get to live forever

You assume that those who do not conform to your particular holy book are punished forever.

You assume that the holy book that was popular at the place and time you were born is correct, and everyone else who believes in a holy book that was popular at the place and time they were born in is incorrect.

And you assume all of these things without a shred of evidence.

So you were saying you can't see how this is arrogant????????
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 12:27:01 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2012, 12:34:49 PM »
Scripture describes the problem:

really?  You think that describes something?  I think it is more confusing than anything.

Quote from: Romans 1:18-21
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

First of all, it is not plain to me.  That is not because I am stupid or hateful or don't want to believe. Once upon a time, I was a god believing xian and I wanted to stay that way.  But I couldn't.  Belief is not a choice.  It is a conclusion. 

If you doubt that, try to choose to believe in Superman for a week.  Just one week.  Pretend your eternal salvation depends on it.

Secondly, it says "invisible qualities" have been "clearly seen".  I take that as a pun.  If something is invisible, it is clear.  Seriously though, how are invisible things clearly seen?  This is typical of poetic jibber-jabber that is intended to sound deep, but really isn't.  "the wise will be stupid and the stupid will be wise."  "the strong will be weak and the weak will be strong."  "The cool will be nerdy and the nerds will be cool."  It is meaningless.

It is saying very clearly that God provides everyone with sufficient evidence to come to know Him, and to know what is to come after death, but that men suppress the truth, and that they have no excuse.

It is also wrong.

So, to clarify, I believe that God gives everyone such revelation.

Beliefs can and should be tested empirically.  They should reflect reality. Because beliefs are what we use to model reality.  So you can test that belief by asking people whether they have received a revelation. 

I have not.  Many others here have not either.

So, your belief, while comfortable to you, does not accurately model reality. So keeping this belief is self indulgent and hurts your ability to understand reality.

You are obviously aware of the judgment that is coming for all men. 

I am aware in that I have heard people say it is coming.  But people also said the world was ending recently.  Several times.  What are we to make of that?

That is why Christians witness, to give non-believers the opportunity to come to know the Lord, and be forgiven for their sins. 

I have a moral problem with that.  For one, none of my sins warranted death. 

For two, I find it to be immoral for one person to accept punishment for the crimes of another.  That is not justice.

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2012, 06:42:57 PM »
Only one God, a triune God. Summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Bart Ehrman again..  Jesus Interrupted. 
Quote
... the only place in the entire New Testament where the doctrine of the Trinity is explicitly taught is in a passage that made it into the King James translation (1 John 5:7–8) but is not found in the vast majority of the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament.

and
Quote
Not even in a document like the Gospel of John, where Jesus is thought of as divine, is there any discussion of three being one in substance. As you might expect, later scribes of the New Testament found this lack disturbing, and so in one place at least they inserted an explicit reference to the Trinity (1 John 5:7–8).9 The Trinity is a later Christian invention, which was based, in the arguments of Athanasius and others, on passages of Scripture but which does not
actually appear in any of the books of the New Testament.

Just sayin... :) 
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Offline burnish

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2012, 06:33:06 PM »
it suggest nothing at all, other then it is the rejection of the god of the bible. it doesn't say gods it says “There is no God.”

The statement "There is no God" rejects all gods.

Whatever commentaries there are, are quite irrelevant, as they are mere opinion. It says what it says, extrapolating what it actually means is bs. the literal truth is that unbeliever means, anybody who doesn't worship the god of the bible.

Then how is your opinion any more relevant?

Offline burnish

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2012, 06:36:50 PM »
I do believe the Creator told us what He expects of us, and I do believe in heaven and hell. 

You assume that your particular ancient holy book is correct, out of the various mythologies and holy books out there.

I assume there is one God just the same as I assume there is one answer to 2 + 2 and many wrong answers.

You assume through this holy book that billions of galaxies were created for the benefit of your species, and that your species is the darling creation of the creator of the universe

I don't think the scripture says anywhere that Earth is the center of the Universe.

You assume that the holy book that was popular at the place and time you were born is correct, and everyone else who believes in a holy book that was popular at the place and time they were born in is incorrect.

I believe God can reach anyone regardless of where or how they were raised.

And you assume all of these things without a shred of evidence.

So you were saying you can't see how this is arrogant????????

I don't assume it without evidence.  To me it has been reasonably confirmed. 

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2012, 07:00:25 PM »
First of all, it is not plain to me.  That is not because I am stupid or hateful or don't want to believe. Once upon a time, I was a god believing xian and I wanted to stay that way.  But I couldn't.  Belief is not a choice.  It is a conclusion.

What I would say first of all is that there is no route to unbelief for a Christian. 

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

You must have made a choice at some point to make yourself the lord of your own reasoning in place of God.

You mentioned that you wanted to stay a Christian, which I do believe.  You may not have understood at the time that we cannot do anything under our own power, including maintaining our faith.

I am sure you have read in scripture how God tested Job.  He took away everything he had to see if his faith was genuine.  Whether Job would, as Satan confidently asserted, curse God for his sufferings.  Have you ever compared yourself to Job?  You lost your faith, which was everything to you, and as you said, you don't believe you had a choice.  Have you considered that possibility?     

If you doubt that, try to choose to believe in Superman for a week.  Just one week.  Pretend your eternal salvation depends on it.


I don't doubt that the human mind works in a mechanical way, in that if certain prerequisites aren't met, belief isn't happening.  That is in the natural.  Scripture describes faith as the evidence of things unseen, the substance of things hoped for.  This is referring to the Holy Spirit, among other things.  He is the guarantor of the promises God has made, in that His indwelling is proof of their reality.  So I guess my question is, were you born again?  IE, did you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and was the Spirit of God living within you?

Secondly, it says "invisible qualities" have been "clearly seen".  I take that as a pun.  If something is invisible, it is clear.  Seriously though, how are invisible things clearly seen?  This is typical of poetic jibber-jabber that is intended to sound deep, but really isn't.  "the wise will be stupid and the stupid will be wise."  "the strong will be weak and the weak will be strong."  "The cool will be nerdy and the nerds will be cool."  It is meaningless.

This is what it means:

Psalm 19:1-2

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.

It is saying very clearly that God provides everyone with sufficient evidence to come to know Him, and to know what is to come after death, but that men suppress the truth, and that they have no excuse.

It is also wrong.


How can you, as a former Christian, claim to God that you didn't have knowledge of the truth?

Beliefs can and should be tested empirically.  They should reflect reality. Because beliefs are what we use to model reality.  So you can test that belief by asking people whether they have received a revelation. 

I have not.  Many others here have not either.

So, your belief, while comfortable to you, does not accurately model reality. So keeping this belief is self indulgent and hurts your ability to understand reality.

Well, Romans is saying that not only have you received sufficient evidence, but that you're also suppressing the truth.  Would a person who is suppressing something be prone to admit it?  Not usually.  I've spoken to atheists who have had out of body experiences and astral travel, and still deny there is a spirit, let alone God. 

You are obviously aware of the judgment that is coming for all men. 

I am aware in that I have heard people say it is coming.  But people also said the world was ending recently.  Several times.  What are we to make of that?

According to scripture, they are false prophets..

Matthew 24:36

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels
in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

That is why Christians witness, to give non-believers the opportunity to come to know the Lord, and be forgiven for their sins. 

I have a moral problem with that.  For one, none of my sins warranted death.

According to God, all sins warrant death.   

For two, I find it to be immoral for one person to accept punishment for the crimes of another.  That is not justice.

Why is it unjust for the party who was offended (God in this case) to accept a substitute for your punishment as sufficient to forgive you?

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2012, 08:07:24 PM »
Hi burnish, I know these replies were addressed for other members, but I have a few questions.

I assume there is one God just the same as I assume there is one answer to 2 + 2 and many wrong answers.

Don’t you mean you assume there is only one god the same way you assume there is only one equation that gives you 4? This would seem to make more sense, given the fact there are many religions that claim their path to god is the correct one.

I believe God can reach anyone regardless of where or how they were raised.

If God can reach them, then why doesn’t he? Human beings are dying right now which have never heard of your god. So given the fact he isn’t intervening must mean:  1) he doesn’t have the power to save everyone, 2) he doesn’t want to save everyone, or 3) he isn’t around any longer. So which is it?

I don't assume it without evidence.  To me it has been reasonably confirmed.

That’s funny, my Muslim friend says the same thing and you both have the same amount of evidence.

What I would say first of all is that there is no route to unbelief for a Christian.

What you've just committed was the No True Scotsman fallacy. No doubt others will call you out on this type of argument.

Here is the standard No True Scotsman setup:

1) All Scotsmen put sugar on their porridge.
2) Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge.
3) Well no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
4) Therefore, Angus is not a true Scotsman.

Moderate Muslims use this same argument when trying to distance themselves from their fundamentalist counterparts. "Well no true Muslim would commit such an atrocity!" Tough noogies. They followed Islam, shared belief in the same god, and taught from the same dogmatic holy book; they were Muslim.

You're essentially doing the same thing to poor ol' screwtape here:

1) For all Christians there is no route to unbelief.
2) screwtape was a Christian, and he took the route to unbelief.
3) Well no true Christian can take the route to unbelief.
4) Therefore, screwtape wasn't a true Christian.

Do you see why this argument is fallacious?

I am sure you have read in scripture how God tested Job.  He took away everything he had to see if his faith was genuine.  Whether Job would, as Satan confidently asserted, curse God for his sufferings.  Have you ever compared yourself to Job?

Ah, Job. It’s funny because you hold this story in such high moral regard while I believe this is a contender for one of the most evil stories in the Bible. Please don’t insult Job’s family by calling this a test. They were murdered. His wife, his children, his farm hands, his livestock: all murdered over a celestial gambling game; both God and Satan treated them like nothing more than chips on a poker table.

Seriously, burnish, this story is morally appalling. God pokes Satan by bragging, saying, “Ha! Look at Job, he loves me and fears me more than he fears you.” Satan scoffs, “Of course Job does, you gave him a good life. If you destroyed his life he wouldn’t worship you.” God doesn’t bat an eyelash and retorts, “Fine, burn everything he loves, just don’t touch Job himself.” Tell me burnish, what kind of loving God stands idly by as he gives the order to have a man's family murdered on a bet? Here’s a hint: it’s a god that has no respect for morality. The story of Job is a story about a man’s obedience to an unjust god. It is not a moral story.


It is saying very clearly that God provides everyone with sufficient evidence to come to know Him, and to know what is to come after death, but that men suppress the truth, and that they have no excuse.

I’ve got bad news for you: God doesn’t provide everyone with sufficient evidence. As I mentioned earlier, there are people that still go through their entire lives without ever hearing about your ancient Middle Eastern god. So what gives?


Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2012, 10:11:21 PM »
Why is it unjust for the party who was offended (God in this case) to accept a substitute for your punishment as sufficient to forgive you?

burnish,

There are many things wrong with your post, but I wanted to respond to this in particular. 

In terms of justice, I don't think the problem is what God supposedly does here (although the notion of an omnipotent God requiring a blood sacrifice for atonement is utterly ridiculous to begin with, but that's another topic).  The problem is with the Christian who allows someone else to stand in and accept punishment for the things they themselves do wrong.  It is the height of irresponsibility.   Don't you see how awful that is?  Is that really the moral thing to do?  Just think about it for a moment... you're letting someone ELSE die for what YOU did?  Do you feel good about that?  Is this something you want to teach your children?  What sort of person says, "Yes, please stand in and take my punishment for me so I don't have to suffer for what I did."?

Too many Christians are caught up in the notion of how great Jesus is that they don't think it all the way through.  Most have been so brainwashed that they fail to examine whether or not the whole sacrifice thing was really as good as everyone makes it out to be.  Fact: what Jesus did was not that big of a deal.  It really wasn't. Hundreds and thousands of people were flogged and crucified back then.  If we are to believe what is said in the bible as we now know it, then he didn't actually die.  He had a bad weekend then went home (back to the greatest place in the universe).  And lets not forget that the scenario that he died for was set up by God in the first place.  God was the one saying, "Hmm, how can I forgive all of these people... I can't just be generous and do it.  Noooo.  Even though I'm omnipotent and I already know what it's like to suffer, I'm going to torture and kill someone to show them all that I care!"  So if you want to say that Jesus jumped on the proverbial grenade for us, then make sure you look back at the person throwing the grenade in the first place... it was God.   
 
Just please answer this... Is it a good action on your part to allow someone else to accept the punishment for something you did wrong? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2012, 01:51:06 AM »
it suggest nothing at all, other then it is the rejection of the god of the bible. it doesn't say gods it says “There is no God.”

The statement "There is no God" rejects all gods.
Not if you take it literally and don't extrapolate, any other meaning.
Whatever commentaries there are, are quite irrelevant, as they are mere opinion. It says what it says, extrapolating what it actually means is bs. the literal truth is that unbeliever means, anybody who doesn't worship the god of the bible.

Then how is your opinion any more relevant?
Mine isn't opinion.[1] I'm taking the text literally as it was written. I've added nothing nor taken anything away.


For your perusal.

Emphasis mine.

American heritage Dictionary

Unbeliever: One who lacks belief or faith, especially in a particular religion; a nonbeliever.

Merriam-Webster

Unbeliever: one that does not believe in a particular religious faith

Or from there 1838 dictionary "Unbeliever: An infidel; one who discredits revelation, or the mission, character and doctrines of Christ. 2Cor. 6." Which means Jews, Muslims, Hindis, etc and atheist. So not only atheists.
Unbelief, unbeliever, and unbelievng, do not mean only atheists, try not to add where nothing needs adding ok.
 1. American Heritage dictionary. Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2012, 05:20:36 AM »
I am sure you have read in scripture how God tested Job.  He took away everything he had to see if his faith was genuine.

So, the deity you worship is not omniscient?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2012, 06:19:49 AM »
I am sure you have read in scripture how God tested Job.  He took away everything he had to see if his faith was genuine.

So, the deity you worship is not omniscient?
God  tested Job, because he either  knew everything and is just a jerk, or he is a senile old goat and knows but constantly forgets, which is it?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Quesi

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2012, 07:08:33 AM »

You assume that the holy book that was popular at the place and time you were born is correct, and everyone else who believes in a holy book that was popular at the place and time they were born in is incorrect.

I believe God can reach anyone regardless of where or how they were raised.


You know burnish, I've heard people say that before, and I'm still having trouble understanding it.  Take a look at this map.  Why are there such huge concentrations of Christians on certain parts of the map, but on other parts of the map, there are huge concentrations of other religions?  Does your god really hate most of Africa and Asia?  Or are most Africans and Asians really just bad sinners?  Why does your God concentrate the sinners in specific parts of the world?   Or does your God just have trouble communicating effectively with people in those parts of the world?



And here we have a distribution of religions based on world populations.  Your God does not seem to be doing a very effective job of spreading the word.  Less than a third of humanity consider themselves Christians.  And those Christians break themselves up into lots of little groups that disagree with each other on how to interpret the scriptures.  Why did God write such confusing scriptures? 



I'm afraid I really need to challenge your premise that "God can reach anyone regardless of where or how they were raised."  The evidence suggests that He is not doing a very good job of reaching the majority of humanity.  And he is certainly not as effective in some regions as he is in others. 

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Does the Bible ever talk specifically about atheists?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2012, 08:12:24 AM »
I do believe the Creator told us what He expects of us, and I do believe in heaven and hell. 

I get that. You are a Christian, completely immersed in the mythology that goes along with it.


You assume that your particular ancient holy book is correct, out of the various mythologies and holy books out there.

I assume there is one God just the same as I assume there is one answer to 2 + 2 and many wrong answers.
Except for Math does not vary from story to story and culture to culture....your implied analogy is completely false.


You assume through this holy book that billions of galaxies were created for the benefit of your species, and that your species is the darling creation of the creator of the universe

I don't think the scripture says anywhere that Earth is the center of the Universe.
Most of Genisis and John 3:16


You assume that the holy book that was popular at the place and time you were born is correct, and everyone else who believes in a holy book that was popular at the place and time they were born in is incorrect.

I believe God can reach anyone regardless of where or how they were raised.


By your mytholgy, he sure can. By actual evidence, such as the enture history of the world, he doesn't.


And you assume all of these things without a shred of evidence.

So you were saying you can't see how this is arrogant????????

I don't assume it without evidence.  To me it has been reasonably confirmed.

Tell me what evidence? What actual, real, independently verifiable, objective, logical evidence seperates your holy book as more true than the Illiad? How is this "reasonably confirmed?"

Since you cannot show me how your religion is any more reflective of reality than some Islander gibbering about their volcano god, Ugabuga...yet want everyone to agree with you...are you really limited enough in intellect as to not understand how that is arrogant?

« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:32:21 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.