Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself

[William]

My scriptures I follow are

What makes them your scriptures?  Were they handed to you personally by Jesus?  Did Jesus put a fluoro yellow highlighter through the bits of scripture relevant to you alone?
Or where you exposed to them because you wanted to emulate other people who referred you to them?
Have you personally read and rejected the Shruti Vedas?
Why don't you follow the Quran?
What if you'd been born in India or Pakistan ... what is the probability you'd have lucked onto what you happen to call: "my scriptures"?

not required to know The Creator of the Universe. 

Just as well, because a close reading of the bible rules out that the human authors knew anything consistent about the Creator ... well nothing that stands up to scrutiny, that we might know their dreamings had a basis in truth.  You know full well that Eve was not made from a rib.
And without the bible people have come to believe other weird stuff about the Creator - many Australian Aborigines reckon the Creator was a Rainbow Serpent.  How do you know they are wrong - their culture is at least 40 000 years old?

Any of those followers have the same opportunity as me to know God.

You have the same opportunity to know Ganesha - why do you not follow Ganesha?

Jesus said that those who did not hear His words and believed were 
even better off than those who did.

Then why did Jesus utter words at all if it compromises those who hear them?
Is God so desperate for souls in heaven that he's happy to harvest those who are not "better off" for having heard Jesus?  Like a second grade crop?  Otherwise what does it mean - are there more comfy sofas in heaven for the "better off" ones?
And what about the countless millions who lived before Jesus and had no myths to believe in, or inherited the wrong myths to believe in?

But more to the point of this topic, if people are "better off" for not hearing Jesus and then believing, why does it say in the bible:

Acts 4:12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved (JESUS).

John 14:6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the Llfe. No one can come to the Father except through Me.

Skywriting, do you see that your statement is contradicted by scriptures - by Jesus himself?

[Astreja]

Peace with God is not the same as complacency.      But some do have that belief.

Existential fallacy:  Undefined entity "God."  At this point it is not possible to tell if "peace with God" is or is not the same as complacency.  First we have to establish that your god actually exists, and then we can start talking about qualitative differences in emotional states.

I hear much resentment and anger and unrest.  I feel bad about that.  I have no problem with unbelievers.  I'm not responsible for their peace.

I'll grant you 2 out of 3 on that one, SW.

Yes, I'm resentful and angry -- At religions and the abuses their practitioners have committed.  I have no particular resentment or anger directed at your god, because to Me it's an old Middle Eastern mythical character.  Even in My polytheistic days that branch of mythology didn't call to Me:  The characters were unappealing and heavy-handed, and the stories dreary.

But unrest?  No more than the average person.

And no one said you had to be responsible for someone else's peace.  If you don't have the power to make it happen, you also don't have the responsibility.

[Anfauglir]

So what you are saying is:You have no clue how your god really operates.You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting.  "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".I've noticed this quite often.  Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?

No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

Oh, you DO like leaving out chunks of the conversation, don't you?  Let's go back and read your last post, that I was responding to there:

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way?   I explain that my prayers were for my wife.
She didn't pray, she got the benefit.  This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. 
As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet.  I can't see into things before they happen, or see God working
without my request. 

THAT is my point.  You have gone on record as saying "I don't know".  "I can't know".  Hence, my question as to why I should care one iota about your god, since you are unable to give any guarantees.

And - as I have come to expect - you chose NOT to answer that point (unsurprising, as its difficult for a believer to address).  Instead, I get the bleating "well, how CAN I know"?

Exactly.  You CAN'T know.  Ergo, you DON'T know.  And if YOU don't know, why should I give pay the slightest attention to any claims you happen to make about what your god may or may not do?

[Anfauglir]

As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have no idea that an event is in response to prayer.  To observers an answered prayer looks like nothing special at all.  They don't know someone has requested help.

And why would they?  Remember my question a few days ago?

There is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do?
You do not  pray for it.  What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same. 

You went on record, as clearly as could be, to say that the events following a prayer would unfold the SAME as if the prayer had not happened.  Which means that any events that transpire are NOT the result of the prayer, since - as YOU confirmed - god would ensure things happened the same either way.

Or are you now going to do a 180 and say that god DOES act differently if a prayer is, or is not, offered?  Can you see why your answers can be so confusing, when you seem to find it so hard to give an answer that applies for more than one post?

[SkyWriting]

As I said, to outsiders unaware of the internal conversation with God, observers have no idea that an event is in response to prayer.  To observers an answered prayer looks like nothing special at all.  They don't know someone has requested help.

And why would they?  Remember my question a few days ago?

There is something you need.  Really really need.  But you do not know you need it.
You pray for it.  What does your god do?
You do not  pray for it.  What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked.  Same. 

You went on record, as clearly as could be, to say that the events following a prayer would unfold the SAME as if the prayer had not happened.  Which means that any events that transpire are NOT the result of the prayer, since - as YOU confirmed - god would ensure things happened the same either way.

Or are you now going to do a 180 and say that god DOES act differently if a prayer is, or is not, offered?  Can you see why your answers can be so confusing, when you seem to find it so hard to give an answer that applies for more than one post?

There are two lines of events that transpire.  One is my conversation with God about a problem, Him steering me to pray the correct way, me following His will,  Him sending me the message that I've been heard, then the prayer being answered exactly as I requested, or even better.

The other chain of events is what an observer would see and comment on: 


It's been said that we can't change God. Based on that, the answer is "Same."

In my experience, God listens even before I ask, and provides before I ask. 

[SkyWriting]

So what you are saying is:You have no clue how your god really operates.You have no idea if your god treats everyone the same.Add those together, and you have not the slightest idea whether, if we chose to follow your god, he would treat as better, worse, or the same as you.It's not the best advert for a faith I've ever seen, SkyWriting.  "Follow my god, and something may or may not happen".I've noticed this quite often.  Believers are very sure...until they get pressed, and then they suddenly go all "well, how can I know?" - and then, all of us sudden, their religion becomes one that is useful ONLY for that particular person, and quite, quite irrelevant for everyone else.If there's no guarantees, and not even the suggestion of consistency, why on earth should I give a shit?

No.  What you are asking is that I travel down two time-lines, one where I pray and monitor the results, the other where I don't pray and monitor the results, then compare the two.   Not having the ability to travel down two parallel time-lines, other people can't do your research for you.

Oh, you DO like leaving out chunks of the conversation, don't you?  Let's go back and read your last post, that I was responding to there:

Well how would I KNOW if God does the same thing either way?   I explain that my prayers were for my wife.
She didn't pray, she got the benefit.  This suggests that one doesn't have to pray to get God's help. 
As I said, I'm a lay person, not a prophet.  I can't see into things before they happen, or see God working
without my request. 

THAT is my point.  You have gone on record as saying "I don't know".  "I can't know".  Hence, my question as to why I should care one iota about your god, since you are unable to give any guarantees.

And - as I have come to expect - you chose NOT to answer that point (unsurprising, as its difficult for a believer to address).  Instead, I get the bleating "well, how CAN I know"?

Exactly.  You CAN'T know.  Ergo, you DON'T know.  And if YOU don't know, why should I give pay the slightest attention to any claims you happen to make about what your god may or may not do?

(**answering your question**)

It depends of the guarantees you are requesting. 
If you want things to go your way, you are screwed.

If you choose to trust that the Creator of the Universe has your back,
then you are guaranteed that he has your back and will not let you down. 

Faith is required, proof is not given ahead of time.

[Anfauglir]

Let me be sure that I have understood your position correctly.

You went on record, as clearly as could be, to say that the events following a prayer would unfold the SAME as if the prayer had not happened.  Which means that any events that transpire are NOT the result of the prayer, since - as YOU confirmed - god would ensure things happened the same either way.

It's been said that we can't change God. Based on that, the answer is "Same."
In my experience, God listens even before I ask, and provides before I ask.

Okay.  So your position is that - whether you pray or not - your god will do the same thing (that thing being "what god wants to do").  You confirm that here:

[It depends of the guarantees you are requesting. 
If you want things to go your way, you are screwed.

If you choose to trust that the Creator of the Universe has your back,
then you are guaranteed that he has your back and will not let you down. 

Whether you pray or not, whether you believe and trust or not, what god wants to happen is what will transpire.  Okay, fine.  Prayer is irrelevant, your wishes are irrelevant, what happens is what your god wants to happen, end of.

But if that is the case, then:

Faith is required.....

Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe.

So again: I'm confused. 

[SkyWriting]

Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

[Mrjason]

Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

What are you on about? First you say that god created earth for humans and now god is not the god(by which I read creator) of this world. Which is it? Your post sounds like an attempt at "woo"

[SkyWriting]

Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

What are you on about? First you say that god created earth for humans and now god is not the god(by which I read creator) of this world. Which is it? Your post sounds like an attempt at "woo"

This world is different than the original created one.  Man was banished from the original garden east of Eden where God walked with man.  The Devil is the god of this world.

Most people notice that this world is not all that kind.  (Jeffery Dahmer was a neighbor of mine.)

[William]

This world is different than the original created one.  Man was banished from the original garden east of Eden where God walked with man.  The Devil is the god of this world.

SkyWriting, you should have pointed that out to Guybrush Threepwood when he was claiming how all the wonders of this world are a testimony to God the Creator   

How does God get anything done on earth if the Devil is the god here?  How does God take care us in the Devil's jurisdiction?
Jesus contradicted you by the way:

Matthew 6:26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

[pianodwarf]

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)

[Anfauglir]

Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

And that is on topic how?  At best, it negates the point you have been apparently making.

If god does exactly what god wants, whether we pray or believe or what, then for him to be having a conversation, a relationship with me (or anyone) is entirely in his hands.  If we are not in a relationship, it can ONLY be the fault of the omnipotent being who can and will arrange reality to conform to his own wishes.

But before we go off on that tangent, can we PLEASE clear up this question, once and for all.

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

Given that this would seem to be a fairly basic point of theology, I'm amazed that you haven't considered the question enough to give a clear answer.  But even if you hadn't considered it before coming here, I'd have hoped that - by this stage in the conversation - we'd have established a clear "yes or no" answer to the question.  The fact that we haven't suggests that you really don't have any idea how your god behaves - and if you have no idea, then any claim you make about it are baseless.

[SkyWriting]

Is it?  If prayer and no prayer have the same effect, and if our wishes are irrelevant, then whether I have faith or not is not going to affect what god does, surely?  Because if that is the case, then you are saying that god will be acting DIFFERENTLY depending on what we think and believe. So again: I'm confused.

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.   It's what He is.
Our Father is not the god of this world.

And that is on topic how?  At best, it negates the point you have been apparently making.

If god does exactly what god wants, whether we pray or believe or what, then for him to be having a conversation, a relationship with me (or anyone) is entirely in his hands.  If we are not in a relationship, it can ONLY be the fault of the omnipotent being who can and will arrange reality to conform to his own wishes.

But before we go off on that tangent, can we PLEASE clear up this question, once and for all.

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

[SkyWriting]

This world is different than the original created one.  Man was banished from the original garden east of Eden where God walked with man.  The Devil is the god of this world.

SkyWriting, you should have pointed that out to Guybrush Threepwood when he was claiming how all the wonders of this world are a testimony to God the Creator   

How does God get anything done on earth if the Devil is the god here?  How does God take care us in the Devil's jurisdiction?
Jesus contradicted you by the way:

Matthew 6:26
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

He does not take care of our physical situation other than to assure us he has the long term solution.  The short term solution is to assure us he has the long term solution.  Say, for example, two people are on a jet that is spinning out of control.  Both pray for salvation from this situation.  God assures both that hes everything under His control.  One dies, the other lives.  The one who trusted in God goes to heaven to be with the Creator for eternity.  The pain of death is forgotten and more important, all the mean things the person did or failed to do in life are forgiven and they are at peace with every pain they ever inflicted.

The other person lives and is grateful for the opportunity to serve god further on earth.  Both results are in God's hands and both people come out ahead of where they were.   Prayer always  adds blessing to people's lives, no matter the outcome.

[Anfauglir]

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Thank you.  I think I'm now clear.

So, it follows that prayer has NO effect on the world.  Whether you pray, or not; whether you even know there is a problem, or not; your god will do what he does.

To take your example: god was always going to stop the rain at that point in time.  He would have done it whether or not either or both of you prayed or did not pray.  If you'd been bumbling along in a dream and just decided to stop, or if you'd been desperately looking for a dry place for the last 40 miles, god would've done exactly the same thing.  Prayer - or its lack - makes no changes to what your god makes happen.  Great stuff.

Prayer is irrelevant, and god will do to someone exactly what he intends to do to them, whether they are a believer who prays all the time, or an atheist who denies god with his daily porridge.  Glad we've sorted that out.

[SkyWriting]

Will your god divert from the action HE wants to take, to account for our beliefs/desires/prayers?

No.  Never.  Not in a million years.

Thank you.  I think I'm now clear.

So, it follows that prayer has NO effect on the world.  Whether you pray, or not; whether you even know there is a problem, or not; your god will do what he does.

To take your example: god was always going to stop the rain at that point in time.  He would have done it whether or not either or both of you prayed or did not pray.  If you'd been bumbling along in a dream and just decided to stop, or if you'd been desperately looking for a dry place for the last 40 miles, god would've done exactly the same thing.  Prayer - or its lack - makes no changes to what your god makes happen.  Great stuff.

Prayer is irrelevant, and god will do to someone exactly what he intends to do to them, whether they are a believer who prays all the time, or an atheist who denies god with his daily porridge.  Glad we've sorted that out.

I have my prayers answered and am not clear on how it happens.
It has an enormous effect on the people who pray and have their prayers answered. 
The results are never under the control of humans at any time. 
But God will always answer.  Just not under human control.

[SkyWriting]

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

[One Above All]

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

You know, most of us here were theists once. Most of those were christians. AFAIK nobody here got your god to listen and respond to their prayers. How do you explain that? And note that claiming we weren't "truthful" or "real christians" will just get you smacked so hard you'll see stars.

[SkyWriting]

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

You know, most of us here were theists once. Most of those were christians. AFAIK nobody here got your god to listen and respond to their prayers. How do you explain that? And note that claiming we weren't "truthful" or "real christians" will just get you smacked so hard you'll see stars.

Not humble enough before God.   No particular denomination of faith is required.  I think Christian denominations are particularly poor at teaching prayer.  I've never been to one that taught that prayers will (actually) be answered.  They usually teach prayer then shrug their shoulders.  And I get the impression that faith healers are looney just like others do.

[pianodwarf]

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

Most of the regulars here will tell you that they were Christians.  When they felt their faith starting to weaken, they did not want to lose it.  Quite the contrary, they were desperate to hang onto it, and they prayed and prayed and prayed for Yahweh to give them strength, or some kind of a sign, or something, to help them keep believing in him.  Yahweh did not answer them.  Which brings me back to my question: what's stopping him?

Never having been a believer myself, that doesn't apply to me, but I can tell you that if Yahweh exists, I absolutely do want to know about it -- I don't like being wrong about anything, whether it's Yahweh's existence or whether Vitamin C helps with a cold.  You cannot therefore state that I have "turned from Yahweh".  I'm right here, ready and willing to hear him if he ever chooses to speak to me, and yet he does not do so.

So, again -- what's stopping him?

[One Above All]

Not humble enough before God.

I should've added "or anything like that" to my short list of excuses.
Put simply, this is a piss-poor excuse for why your god chose[1] to stay silent. Like pianodwarf said, some (I'd go so far as to say "most") of us prayed for signs. Ever been really desperate? Humility is the trademark of a desperate person.

No particular denomination of faith is required.

Bullshit. Per your Bible, your god wants to be worshiped and loved above all else. Sounds like an insecure bully, but that's another story.

I think Christian denominations are particularly poor at teaching prayer.  I've never been to one that taught that prayers will (actually) be answered.

Excuse me?

I have my prayers answered and am not clear on how it happens.

Mind explaining that?

They usually teach prayer then shrug their shoulders.

Not sure what your point is here.

And I get the impression that faith healers are looney just like others do.

I think we can all agree on this.

1.	In a manner of speaking. Non-existent beings can't choose.

[SkyWriting]

God wants a relationship, a conversation with people.

So what's stopping him?  (NB that your answer must not conflict with Yahweh's omnipotence.)

Man has turned from God and refuses to talk with Him.
Any time man chooses, God will listen and respond.

Most of the regulars here will tell you that they were Christians.  When they felt their faith starting to weaken, they did not want to lose it.  Quite the contrary, they were desperate to hang onto it, and they prayed and prayed and prayed for Yahweh to give them strength, or some kind of a sign, or something, to help them keep believing in him.  Yahweh did not answer them.  Which brings me back to my question: what's stopping him?

Never having been a believer myself, that doesn't apply to me, but I can tell you that if Yahweh exists, I absolutely do want to know about it -- I don't like being wrong about anything, whether it's Yahweh's existence or whether Vitamin C helps with a cold.  You cannot therefore state that I have "turned from Yahweh".  I'm right here, ready and willing to hear him if he ever chooses to speak to me, and yet he does not do so.

So, again -- what's stopping him?

If you were walking in the Garden, or were in Heaven, He'd be standing right beside you.  But you are not where He resides.  You are in the world where Satin is god. 

You, being in the wrong place, need to come to Him. 
It's not "fair" being born here but it is what it is.
We must come to Him in humility.

[William]

He does not take care of our physical situation other than to assure us he has the long term solution.  The short term solution is to assure us he has the long term solution.

Well this is a fairly rare position to hold because it simply doesn't fit with any mainstream scriptures or evidence.
How do you arrive at that conclusion?  Without cherry picking from scriptures that contain other contradictory statements, and are therefore rendered unreliable.

You are of course entitled to believe in any baseless assertions that take your fancy. Be we are entitled to not take you seriously without evidence or reason.  To convince me, and most people, to give any credence to your beliefs, you'll have to provide some substance we can't refute.  So what are you irrefutable sources for these claims?

 

[SkyWriting]

1. He does not take care of our physical situation other than to assure us he has the long term solution.

2.  The short term solution is to assure us he has the long term solution.

Well this is a fairly rare position to hold because it simply doesn't fit with any mainstream scriptures or evidence.
How do you arrive at that conclusion?  Without cherry picking from scriptures that contain other contradictory statements, and are therefore rendered unreliable.

You are of course entitled to believe in any baseless assertions that take your fancy. Be we are entitled to not take you seriously without evidence or reason.  To convince me, and most people, to give any credence to your beliefs, you'll have to provide some substance we can't refute.  So what are you irrefutable sources for these claims?

That we don't see God intervening during a crisis. ( #1)

That people have decided to Trust God for their long term care. 
All the scriptures, plus all followers. (#2 )

[SkyWriting]

I should've added "or anything like that" to my short list of excuses.
Put simply, this is a piss-poor excuse for why your god chose[1] to stay silent. Like pianodwarf said, some (I'd go so far as to say "most") of us prayed for signs. Ever been really desperate? Humility is the trademark of a desperate person.

1.	In a manner of speaking. Non-existent beings can't choose.

Correlation is not causation. Error of logic.
Desperate people can be described in many ways. 
"Humility" is not common.

[One Above All]

Correlation is not causation. Error of logic.

AFAIK I did not infer or imply that. Error of reading.
All I did was point out to you why you were wrong. Not surprisingly, you try to cling to it in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

Desperate people can be described in many ways. 
"Humility" is not common.

I was using hyperbole for the sake of the argument. That said, it doesn't mean I was wrong. If you're really desperate, you'll swallow your pride and do what you must to survive. Our instinct for self-preservation is strong.

[SkyWriting]

Correlation is not causation. Error of logic.

AFAIK I did not infer or imply that. Error of reading.
All I did was point out to you why you were wrong. Not surprisingly, you try to cling to it in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

Desperate people can be described in many ways. 
"Humility" is not common.

I was using hyperbole for the sake of the argument. That said, it doesn't mean I was wrong. If you're really desperate, you'll swallow your pride and do what you must to survive. Our instinct for self-preservation is strong.

As you give no examples, I can't fathom what you are on about.

[One Above All]

As you give no examples, I can't fathom what you are on about.

Ever seen someone begging on the streets? Or praying to and making deals with non-existent gods? Some even pray in tears. I know I did at least once. Those are examples of desperate people.