Proof Jesus Contradicted Himself

[jdawg70]

Some of what I know about God is documented in the scriptures.
I could provide any number of these references.

But a secular example is that I don't kill you this instant.
If God was not compassionate, I could eat you at any time.
But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me
to allow me to exist.  We may be talking about the "god" of
natural selection in this case, but some rules are being made
that we are following.  And we seem to obey them for some
reason.

What's confusing here is it seems that it is you who is being compassionate, not god.

I'm new here.  Are we allowed to wander off the OP topic?

Best not to, but then again, I really haven't participated in a thread where tangents are taken at some point.  A mod will come about and realign the discussion if it gets far too off topic.

[SkyWriting]

What's confusing here is it seems that it is you who is being compassionate, not god.

Sure, but why?  You don't offer me any benefit being alive.
In fact, your eating my food. And i'm ticked.
I should smack you right now.

[screwtape]

Some of what I know about God is documented in the scriptures.

So you claim to know the feelings of God based on the writings of men who died as recently as 2000 years ago.  I'm not sure I would qualify that as "knowledge".  Your knowledge boils down to "some guy (who knows less science than a thrid grader) told me". 

But how do you know that guy was right?

I could provide any number of these references.

You could.  I am afraid I would reject them, though.

But a secular example is that I don't kill you this instant.

I don't follow.  What does not killing me have to do with knowing what god supposedly wants?  It would seem to me that even if there were a god and even if he wanted us to not kill each other, you not killing me would be a conclusion of those facts, not evidence of them.

That follows the most basic logical fallacy:
If A then B
B
therefore A

If God was not compassionate, I could eat you at any time.

I still don't follow.  You could eat me any time.  The only thing stopping you is you.[1]  Jeffrey Dahmer ate people.  People in Papua New Guinea eat people (on occasion).  Does that mean god is not compassionate?

But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me to allow me to exist.

I seriously have no idea what your point is here.

We may be talking about the "god" of natural selection in this case,

Then we are not talking about a god at all.  You should be more disciplined and less ambiguous with how you use the word "god".

I'm new here.  Are we allowed to wander off the OP topic?

It is permissible.  I tend to frown on it. But sometimes the conversation goes where it goes...

1.	well, I'd have something to say about it, but that's not the point

[SkyWriting]

So you claim to know the feelings of God based on the writings of men who died as recently as 2000 years ago.  I'm not sure I would qualify that as "knowledge".  Your knowledge boils down to "some guy (who knows less science than a thrid grader) told me".

I don't claim to know your education level.  But I know God for what He does in my life.
One can't ask for better proof than personal experience.

In R&D we conduct experiments and draw conclusions based on experiences even if no one else is watching.  My Faith comes from the same kind of experiences.  I could show you my study notes if you need them.

[screwtape]

But I know God for what He does in my life.

So you are now telling me your "knowledge" is not based on reading ancient mythology, it is based on personal observation?  What does god do for you in your life?

One can't ask for better proof than personal experience.

Yes and no.  If you have actually observed god in action, that would be compelling.  However, the nature of personal experience is prone to all sorts of errors and bias.  So, the short answer is "that depends".

In R&D we conduct experiments and draw conclusions based on experiences even if no one else is watching.

Why did you add"even if no one else is watching" at the end?  What's that got to do with it?  And in R&D the experiments are done in a data-driven, rigorous, quantifiable manner, are they not? 

  My Faith comes from the same kind of experiences.

data driven?
rigorous?
quantifiable?

I could show you my study notes if you need them.

I would be keen to see them.

[SkyWriting]

But I know God for what He does in my life.

So you are now telling me your "knowledge" is not based on reading ancient mythology, it is based on personal observation?  What does god do for you in your life?

Whatever I need.  Often not exactly what I ask for but that's my error.
Occasionally, exactly what I ask for plus 7 times as much unexpected.

The formula to follow exactly to get instant results is:

"This, then, is how you should pray >> " Matthew 6:9

Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.
All failing comes from you not following the exact
procedure written by the "old dead guys."
If you can't follow the formula, then get some
more training, or practice.

Just like real life.

[One Above All]

<snip>
Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.

Already did when I was a believer. I prayed for my mentally-deficient cousin to get better, every day, before going to sleep. Nothing happened.

All failing comes from you not following the exact
procedure written by the "old dead guys."

Ever heard of poisoning the well? It's a common logical fallacy, which I'm sure you'll ignore, since it feeds your delusion.

[SkyWriting]

Already did when I was a believer. I prayed for my mentally-deficient cousin to get better, every day, before going to sleep. Nothing happened.

I am sorry about your mistake.
The instructions said nothing about you getting what you want.
Read them again.   Show me where it promises that you get your way.

[One Above All]

The instructions said nothing about you getting what you want.
Read them again.

True. But you did. You said I'd get proof. Being all-knowing, your god knows that the only proof (after praying) would be my cousin being healed. Any explanation?
Also, I see you've failed to address your use of the poisoning the well fallacy.

[SkyWriting]

The instructions said nothing about you getting what you want.
Read them again.

True. But you did. You said I'd get proof. Being all-knowing, your god knows that the only proof (after praying) would be my cousin being healed. Any explanation?
Also, I see you've failed to address your use of the poisoning the well fallacy.

Only if your science professor is guilty of red marking your lab book.
Follow the words one at a time.   I don't get what I want unless:________________

On those occasions, everything matches up perfect.
Any mismatch is my error.
ALL science professors will agree with me on this, newbies suck at following directions.

[One Above All]

Only if your science professor is guilty of red marking your lab book.
Follow the words one at a time.   I don't get what I want unless:________________

I did all this, several years ago. Nothing happened. And I don't mean I didn't get what I wanted. I mean that, literally, nothing happened.

On those occasions, everything matches up perfect.
Any mismatch is my error.

Poisoning the well again. I'm gonna start smiting you for that.

ALL science professors will agree with me on this, newbies suck at following directions.

I'm older than time itself, puny mortal. If you could understand my mind, you'd bow down and worship me, rather than a false god like YHWH.

[screwtape]

Whatever I need. 

Can you be more specific?  Does he mow the lawn?  Bring you a ham and cheese sandwich?  Loan you money?  Did god ever help you move?

"This, then, is how you should pray >> " Matthew 6:9

Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.

I did that for many years.  I received no proof in all those years.

All failing comes from you not following the exact procedure written by the "old dead guys."

I find that to be a particularly scummy and often repeated claim.  If I were king, anyone who claimed special knowledge of the divine - like you - would be forbidden from making this kind of excuse under penalty of death.  You, my friend, would be fed to alligators under the reign of King Screwtape the Rational.

So, let's look at what's wrong with this.  First, you claim to have an experiment.  Yet all outcomes confirm your predicted result.  That is not an experiment.  That is an assumption.

Second, why would god be so particular about the exact format if a person's heart is in the right place?  You make it sound suspiciously like a magic incantation where the slightest deviation causes the spell to fail.  yhwh's magic must be very weak if it depends on human accuracy so much.

Third, I am pretty sure I followed the formula.  How do we know it was me and not something else, like your forumla?  Or you lying? 

I am pretty sure my only failing was thinking there was a god. 

[SkyWriting]

Whatever I need. 

Can you be more specific?  Does he mow the lawn?  Bring you a ham and cheese sandwich?  Loan you money?  Did god ever help you move?

"This, then, is how you should pray >> " Matthew 6:9

Follow the exact procedure and get your proof.

I did that for many years.  I received no proof in all those years.

All failing comes from you not following the exact procedure written by the "old dead guys."

I find that to be a particularly scummy and often repeated claim.  If I were king, anyone who claimed special knowledge of the divine - like you - would be forbidden from making this kind of excuse under penalty of death.  You, my friend, would be fed to alligators under the reign of King Screwtape the Rational.

So, let's look at what's wrong with this.  First, you claim to have an experiment.  Yet all outcomes confirm your predicted result.  That is not an experiment.  That is an assumption.

Second, why would god be so particular about the exact format if a person's heart is in the right place?  You make it sound suspiciously like a magic incantation where the slightest deviation causes the spell to fail.  yhwh's magic must be very weak if it depends on human accuracy so much.

Third, I am pretty sure I followed the formula.  How do we know it was me and not something else, like your forumla?  Or you lying? 

I am pretty sure my only failing was thinking there was a god.

[SkyWriting]

Can you be more specific?  Does he mow the lawn?  Bring you a ham and cheese sandwich?  Loan you money?  Did god ever help you move?

He did have "a lawn mowed for me" a few days before I prayed for a clearing in the tall field that I was driving by while on a trip.  The other things could happen if they needed to happen.  But the mowing was a critical need so it was answered days before my prayer.

Another critical event occurred where I needed a ride and a bus held over so I could get out of the US on time.  But the most relevant result was that my anxiety was removed and replaced with knowledge that the prayer had been answered.  The facts that it was, was not a surprise.  I already knew it had all been taken care of.  That was the surprising result, the peace than comes from knowing I had been heard.

As to your following the formula, your request shows you didn't read it right.
Right after "Your kingdom come," 
my will be done for me because I so smart.

[screwtape]

He did have "a lawn mowed for me"

Why did you put it in quotes?  Stop playing games and be clear.  Did yhwh mow the lawn or what?

As to your following the formula, your request shows you didn't read it right.

As I pointed out, it doesn't show that.  That is merely your assumption.  There are several possibilities, of which my error is but one.  So either you need to explain how to tell which of these possibilities is the root of it, or back off your claim.

Right after "Your kingdom come," my will be done for me because I so smart.

That's just obnoxious.

[SkyWriting]

He did have "a lawn mowed for me"

Why did you put it in quotes?  Stop playing games and be clear.  Did yhwh mow the lawn or what?

He had it mowed for my benefit by a person with feet.  He always uses people available.
Then He had me ask for it seconds before He provided the mowed space I needed.
And if you think it's because I fervently pray constantly...that's not the case.
I should, but that's not the case.

As to your following the formula, your request shows you didn't read it right.

As I pointed out, it doesn't show that.  That is merely your assumption.  There are several possibilities, of which my error is but one.  So either you need to explain how to tell which of these possibilities is the root of it, or back off your claim.

Right after "Your kingdom come," my will be done for me because I so smart.

That's just obnoxious.

Exactly.  This explains why prayers don't work.  Asking God to act outside of your best interest is obnoxious.  If you can manage to get your desires in line with God's will then He instantly answers those requests.  It's very difficult to get into the "Thy will be done" mindset.  Very very hard to be that humble.   But if you READ the formula, that's exactly what it says.  THY WILL BE DONE.   Get to that place, and God does exactly what you say.  It happens after you request exactly what He has in mind. And it's amazing when it happens.

[DT]

Even without a vast knowledge of the particular words referenced in the original language, this explanation doesnt work. The Pharisees were Jews and Jesus would have been a Jew as well. They believed the same thing.
[/quote]

Very true. but you have to ask if the Pharisees, believed in Jesus. They saw with their own eyes and still crucified Him...which is foolish.

[screwtape]

He had it mowed for my benefit by a person with feet.  He always uses people available.
Then He had me ask for it seconds before He provided the mowed space I needed.
And if you think it's because I fervently pray constantly...that's not the case.
I should, but that's not the case.

That's very cryptic.  I'm tired of trying to drag answers out of you.  If you want to have a conversation, then answer the question without being a douche.  If not, piss off.

Exactly.  This explains why prayers don't work.  Asking God to act outside of your best interest is obnoxious.

No, no, Mr Know-it-all.  YOU are obnoxious.  You have no idea for what I prayed.  And yet you feel justified, confident even, in proclaiming knowledge of my motives.  Pride is a sin. 

Very very hard to be that humble.   But if you READ the formula, that's exactly what it says.  THY WILL BE DONE.   Get to that place, and God does exactly what you say. 

Well, since you clearly haven't a shred of humility, then your "answered prayers" must have some other explanation.  I know it is nice to think there is a god who is on your side.  But it is also the ultimate ego trip. 

[Anfauglir]

Anecdotes don't count as scholarly research. 

I know God for what He does in my life.  One can't ask for better proof than personal experience.

LOL!  QFT.

But we both get to exist, so God must feel something for me to allow me to exist. 

Or we may both be SO far below his radar on his list of concerns that the question hasn't even occurred to him.  There is quite likely to be a small bug living beneath the floorboards in your house.  You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?

Right after "Your kingdom come," my will be done for me

This explains why prayers don't work.  Asking God to act outside of your best interest is obnoxious.  If you can manage to get your desires in line with God's will then He instantly answers those requests.  It's very difficult to get into the "Thy will be done" mindset.  Very very hard to be that humble.   But if you READ the formula, that's exactly what it says.  THY WILL BE DONE.   Get to that place, and God does exactly what you say.  It happens after you request exactly what He has in mind. And it's amazing when it happens.

I'm not clear on how this counts as "proof" that a god exists, because what you are saying is that "god makes happen what god wants to happen, 100% of the time".  And the only way you can delude yourself that what YOU want has any bearing is if what you want mirrors exactly what god wants.....but even then, from what you've said, YOUR wishes still have no bearing.  They just happen to match what god wants to happen anyway.

So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

[SkyWriting]

So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.
But let me put it in a secular frame for you.  You think of a good friend of
yours and you pick up the phone (landline) to call them and they are already
on the line because they called you.

Scientifically speaking, this may be because we live in a multiverse where
all possibilities do actually play out, and once in a while you get tuned in
to the future that is seconds away.

While that's possible, the ongoing conversation with God fits my experiences
better. He occasionally causes me to pray about things about to happen.
And it is so stunning when it happens.   

[Anfauglir]

So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify?  Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did?  But that what god did would NOT differ?

But let me put it in a secular frame for you.  You think of a good friend of
yours and you pick up the phone (landline) to call them and they are already
on the line because they called you.

Do you know, its amazing that you mention that, because just the other day I went to call a friend I'd not spoken to for ages.  I picked up the phone, and already on the line was a double-glazing firm calling me!  Spooky or what!

It happened the other week, too.  I went to call him, and his number was engaged!  I tried for half an hour, and eventually got through to his wife, who told me he was at work.

Point being, sometimes weird coincidences happen.  And, being human, because they make for a great story, we remember them and tell them to others, and they come to seem FAR more important that the 999,999 other times when weird stuff DIDN'T happen.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you.  What do you calculate the odds are of that happening?  I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please. 

Or, if you prefer, you could answer the question I posed about the bug under your floorboards.  "You haven't killed him.  Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him?  If not, why not?"

[SkyWriting]

So I'm confused, like I say.  How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists?  Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"?  Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify?  Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did?  But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility.  My wife was with me and needed a rest stop. She is quadriplegic.
She was not aware of my prayer so was oblivious to the fact that the results were in answer
to my prayers.   Additionally, I had a hard time finding a place to stop because of the rain.
I shut off the wipers after I stopped.   The ground was dry when I opened the door.

But let me put it in a secular frame for you.  You think of a good friend of
yours and you pick up the phone (landline) to call them and they are already
on the line because they called you.

Do you know, its amazing that you mention that, because just the other day I went to call a friend I'd not spoken to for ages.  I picked up the phone, and already on the line was a double-glazing firm calling me!  Spooky or what!

It happened the other week, too.  I went to call him, and his number was engaged!  I tried for half an hour, and eventually got through to his wife, who told me he was at work.

Point being, sometimes weird coincidences happen.  And, being human, because they make for a great story, we remember them and tell them to others, and they come to seem FAR more important that the 999,999 other times when weird stuff DIDN'T happen.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you.  What do you calculate the odds are of that happening?  I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please. 

I'm glad you illustrated the 999,999 times.  I don't pray fervent prayers that often and the result has been 100%.   
4 out of 4, so far.

[SkyWriting]

Well, since you clearly haven't a shred of humility, then your "answered prayers" must have some other explanation.  I know it is nice to think there is a god who is on your side.  But it is also the ultimate ego trip.

That's the difficult part.  If I take any credit at all for the result, it doesn't happen.
So I can't actually believe that I had any part in the result.  I can only take credit for
changing my desires to line up with God.  Even then, I have to give Him credit for that
as well.  You can see why prayer doesn't work on demand.

It does work.  Just not on demand by man.

[One Above All]

<snip>
It does work.  Just not on demand by man.

Bible says otherwise.

You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm

[SkyWriting]

<snip>
It does work.  Just not on demand by man.

Bible says otherwise.

You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Source: http://biblehub.com/john/14-14.htm

"In My Name" is not as simple as some take it.   But let's say it is.

I go to the store an purchase underwear "in my wife's name".

Do you see how you interpret that phrase will make a difference in what I return with?

[One Above All]

<snip>
Do you see how you interpret that phrase will make a difference in what I return with?

No.

[SkyWriting]

<snip>
Do you see how you interpret that phrase will make a difference in what I return with?

No.

In one case I come back with women's underwear
because I bought it with her in mind.

Not just using her credit card.

Or maybe I bought what she would want me to wear rather than what I find comfortable.
Maybe she would want me in sexy underwear, or maybe baggy ones that are better
for reproductive purposes.   So "In Her Name" MIGHT be what I had in mind
or maybe not.
 

[One Above All]

I dunno if it's because English is not my first language, but you're not making any sense.

[SkyWriting]

I dunno if it's because English is not my first language, but you're not making any sense.

"In Gods Name" does not mean you get a free pass to anything you want
just by using God's name, like a credit card.

"In my NAME" requires responsibility to the name.  It's not a wallet.